and then you had the Schwartz article mentioning how Chris is not very involved and he is busy with his horses and being involved watching his daughters careers. So this title seems more in line with that. I don't doubt that he has good personnel talent. Parcells wanted him to join him when he went to the Patriots but a smart and correct move imo.
I think Schoen gets two solid years to implement his vision. If he falters I expect the Mara's to start working themselves back in.
and then you had the Schwartz article mentioning how Chris is not very involved and he is busy with his horses and being involved watching his daughters careers. So this title seems more in line with that. I don't doubt that he has good personnel talent. Parcells wanted him to join him when he went to the Patriots but a smart and correct move imo.
I think Schoen gets two solid years to implement his vision. If he falters I expect the Mara's to start working themselves back in.
I never took that Parcells line about Chris to be anything more than an endorsement for him just to stay in his good graces and as a sort of favor from Big Bill to CM.
Your point about the Maras slowly working themselves back in is also my fear. I think they'll give Schoen more than two years though. The Mara to keep an eye on going forward mostly will be Tim McDonnell. Fortunately though, I believe the Tisches have flexed their muscle and have made the Maras stand down from personnel much mor than before. It was no accident that Steve Tisch was in the Draft War Room this past April because he wasn't there in the past until then.
One thing is for sure: the Maras need to be placated and massaged gently to keep them at bay. George Young had an ironclad contract giving him final say, but even then he knew how to communicate between Tim and Wellington to keep things moving along slowly. Wellington was more honorable though then his sons. John and Chris don't have the same quality as their father. I'm not saying they're bad people, but Wellington kept his word to not interfere after 1979, although he did do some favors for people and this would occasionally come up in personnel. There was the time Tom Boisture was asked to draft one of Wellington's family friends (I forgot the year, but I think it was a Tight End in the late 90s or something). Anywho, things are looking up, but the Maras have stuck their noses into personnel in the past before. It'll be a matter of when, not if. For now though, all looks quiet on the Western front.
John M - "Chris, Joe and I think it would be beneficial to the team if you gave up your role as SVP of Player Personnel and just acted in the role as a consultant. We still want your opinions, we just think we need someone else to head up the decision making."
or
John M - "Chris, all the heat we are getting about nepotism would go away if we change your title. We are going to do that quietly but in reality we still really want your leadership and input on player personnel decisions."
But it is an indication that ownership knows what the optics have been the past 10 years. They know better than anyone that the NYG's have been one of the worst teams in the league and that they are directly responsible for stewarding the franchise to that record. It seems like things have changed...we shall see.
I don't think the Tisches are giving the Maras free reign anymore.
He would've been fired if he wasn't a Mara, but since he is, he gets to have a fancy job with a voice on player personnel. But at least he's been de-clawed, so-to-speak.
He would've been fired if he wasn't a Mara, but since he is, he gets to have a fancy job with a voice on player personnel. But at least he's been de-clawed, so-to-speak.
+1
RE: I don't think the Tisches are giving the Maras free reign anymore.
Instead of looking at the roster critically, Mara and his circle read the press clippings and all the praise for two SB titles in five seasons. They thought they could replicate 2007 & 2011. Then they got spooked by the Eli fan outrage after the benching. It all led to mismanagement everywhere.
I’m hopeful Schoen represents a new era and real change. I still think the biggest development was *not* picking up Jones option.
RE: RE: I don't think the Tisches are giving the Maras free reign anymore.
NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
·
1m
Chris Mara is no longer listed as a member of the Player Personnel Department. Great job by Joe Schoen and the #Giants front office. Gotta tip your cap to John Mara as well. He’s stepped back and gave Joe Schoen the keys. #TogetherBlue #NFL
RE: RE: … Also, who the hell is the Director of College Scouting?
John M - "Chris, Joe and I think it would be beneficial to the team if you gave up your role as SVP of Player Personnel and just acted in the role as a consultant. We still want your opinions, we just think we need someone else to head up the decision making."
or
John M - "Chris, all the heat we are getting about nepotism would go away if we change your title. We are going to do that quietly but in reality we still really want your leadership and input on player personnel decisions."
My money is on the latter.
To me it's really about how much the Tisch family is involved. If they are more so, it could be the former.
My guess (purely that), is they stayed on the sideline, which got us putrid teams and DG, which was perhaps the last straw.
Steve Tisch was conspicuously PRESENT in the Giants' war room
this past April during the draft. A stark change form past years. That stood out like a sore thumb, but in a good way this time. Schoen has support against the Maras if needed, but it all looks like things are moving along just about as well as we could hope so far with the Maras being much less involved in personnel decisions.
this past April during the draft. A stark change form past years. That stood out like a sore thumb, but in a good way this time. Schoen has support against the Maras if needed, but it all looks like things are moving along just about as well as we could hope so far with the Maras being much less involved in personnel decisions.
I’ve thought for some time that the changes we saw happen - namely firing Judge and hiring a GM from outside the Giants ‘family’ - were from Tisch telling Mara things have to change.
Maybe Duggan will do an article about it at some point.
Like a positive step and new title is more aligned to his reality as someone who is occasionally consulted on college players but is not actively running the function.
As of 2012, Chris got that title. It's a significant one at that too. Look around other NFL Front Offices and that will tell you all you need to know.
Additionally, this is neither here nor there, but in the comments section on an article about the mess that was the giants prior to these changes taking place, a poster with knowledge said that to placate Chris after losing out to Reese for the GM title, that the Tisches and John gave Chris his previous title, but that they also had written into his contract that he made the picks for Rounds 3 to 7---which would explain a lot of their failures.
Nonsense. I am sure Chris had his say (in some years where the GM was vunerable). But whether they listened or not, it was still on the GM and his guys...
Chris Mara tried to be an NFL GM twice. It's obvious what happened here. He did make draft picks and openly discussed them. There's a reason he was removed from his role. This is your opinion, and you're entitled to it---no matter how wrong it is. Bottom line: CM is an owner who was involved in personnel. This is a fact. They weren't hiding it. The maras have a history of playing rotisserie foosball with their team. It just ran it's course this time, just like it did in the past.
No, this is the wrong sentiment. Not disputing he played around in scouting and player evals but don’t consider his role needed or useful, and he didn’t make picks.
His title was silly and never mattered anyway other than to himself. But now at least some of you Front Office Conspiracy Theorists are getting basically everything you wished for this offseason. Chris Mara is/has been the very least of our concerns.
The GM runs the show...
I know you feel vindicated and are enjoying this victory lap. But I think this is a good find by TTH and revealing.
John could have done absolutely nothing here and let Chris keep his big industry title. And simply downplay questions from the media like he did this year. Yet, John decided to change his brother's title. Why?
My guess is Chris had more power than you think - with DG here and prior years - and Schoen said he can't move the team forward with his vision with that dynamic hovering over him...
The Mara's changed it because they started getting crap about it from the media and websites like this. And they didn't have a good answer other than saying ego (which they chose not to).
Nothing to do with power, only vein and insecurity.
Move on my friend. Nothing to see here...
Once again, you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
But once a chucklehead, always a chucklehead…
🤷🏻♂️
Who’s talking to you? Would have thought you left with the rest of the posters that got everything wrong about the team for past several years...
His title was silly and never mattered anyway other than to himself. But now at least some of you Front Office Conspiracy Theorists are getting basically everything you wished for this offseason. Chris Mara is/has been the very least of our concerns.
The GM runs the show...
I know you feel vindicated and are enjoying this victory lap. But I think this is a good find by TTH and revealing.
John could have done absolutely nothing here and let Chris keep his big industry title. And simply downplay questions from the media like he did this year. Yet, John decided to change his brother's title. Why?
My guess is Chris had more power than you think - with DG here and prior years - and Schoen said he can't move the team forward with his vision with that dynamic hovering over him...
The Mara's changed it because they started getting crap about it from the media and websites like this. And they didn't have a good answer other than saying ego (which they chose not to).
Nothing to do with power, only vein and insecurity.
Move on my friend. Nothing to see here...
Once again, you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
But once a chucklehead, always a chucklehead…
🤷🏻♂️
Who’s talking to you? Would have thought you left with the rest of the posters that got everything wrong about the team for past several years...
Chris Mara is no longer listed on the team’s official website as part of the Giants’ player personnel department.
Mara, part of the family that shares ownership of the franchise with the Tisch family, has done two stints in the team’s personnel department. His latest stint began in 21003, and he had held the title Senior Vice President of Player Personnel since 2011. Until this week’s change.
Mara is now listed only in the ownership section on the team’s website.
Tim McDonnell is the top name in personnel, with the title Director of Player Personnel. Chris Rossetti, hired this offseason by GM Joe Schoen, is Director of Pro Scouting. Dennis Hickey, former Miami Dolphins GM and most recently a senior college scout for the Buffalo Bills, is Assistant Director of Player Personnel.
Schoen has removed several people from the front office, including former co-director of player personnel Mark Koncz, college scouting director Chris Pettit, senior personnel executive Kyle O’Brien, senior pro scouting executive Ken Sternfeld, and pro scout/systems analyst Matt Schauger.
When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
As of 2012, Chris got that title. It's a significant one at that too. Look around other NFL Front Offices and that will tell you all you need to know.
Additionally, this is neither here nor there, but in the comments section on an article about the mess that was the giants prior to these changes taking place, a poster with knowledge said that to placate Chris after losing out to Reese for the GM title, that the Tisches and John gave Chris his previous title, but that they also had written into his contract that he made the picks for Rounds 3 to 7---which would explain a lot of their failures.
Nonsense. I am sure Chris had his say (in some years where the GM was vunerable). But whether they listened or not, it was still on the GM and his guys...
Chris Mara tried to be an NFL GM twice. It's obvious what happened here. He did make draft picks and openly discussed them. There's a reason he was removed from his role. This is your opinion, and you're entitled to it---no matter how wrong it is. Bottom line: CM is an owner who was involved in personnel. This is a fact. They weren't hiding it. The maras have a history of playing rotisserie foosball with their team. It just ran it's course this time, just like it did in the past.
No, this is the wrong sentiment. Not disputing he played around in scouting and player evals but don’t consider his role needed or useful, and he didn’t make picks.
You can choose to bury your head in the sand if you want to Googs, but it doesn't change anything. His title was significant and extremely "needed and useful". He absolutely had a major role in player selection, hence his title: SENIOR VICE PRESEIDENT OF PLAYER PERSONNEL.
The article linked at the bottom of this post also dives deep into this subject. You sound like a member of the Mara family Googs. The Maras are thin-skinned and proved it when John went into instant defense-mode regarding his brother's role and that of his nephew. Follow the tea leaves. It's not integral calculus or organic chemistry here...
This is all on Joe Schoen now.John Mara has given JS the authority to reshape the the personnel dept.
Let's hope we see positive results over the next few years on the field in more wins and playoffs.
Honestly, this time last year I never thought we would see these positive changes in the Giants FO.
for people who don't know things the bosses don't already know or offer insights they don't already have. Chris Mara's haphazard work habits as a scout made him unreliable and an undesirable, whatever his last name.
for people who don't know things the bosses don't already know or offer insights they don't already have. Chris Mara's haphazard work habits as a scout made him unreliable and an undesirable, whatever his last name.
Most important of all, he was unfireable. This is what George Young preached against for years. He has essentially been "fired", nut he'll always be the owner for as long as he continues to live.
This is all on Joe Schoen now.John Mara has given JS the authority to reshape the the personnel dept.
Let's hope we see positive results over the next few years on the field in more wins and playoffs.
Honestly, this time last year I never thought we would see these positive changes in the Giants FO.
Don't forget the Tisches. I give them more credit for all of the positive organizational changes we've seen than I do the Maras. They do won 50 percent of the team.
Isn’t the most likely scenario that Mara and Tisch basically realized that the team sucks and has sucked for awhile. The Giants went from winning 2 SBs in a few years to the bottom of the league for an extended period. Isn’t it likely that Mara realized that unless they turned the decision making to a professional that this organization was going to nowhere? Owners will always have a say, they write the checks. But, this GM is the guy making the decisions.
the title VP of Player Personnel isn't just a throwaway, it means something in the football operation, and there is a level of accountability associated with it. In the post-Judge firestorm, the Giants organization clearly wanted to spare Chris from the vitriol and harsh criticism (rightfully) directed to the front office. So, we all heard some "friendly" media leak about how well-respected Chris is around the league as a talent evaluator, that his role had diminished in recent years, etc.
Fine. But he still had the title, and for that, he couldn't just skate. Owners all around the league, and in other sports, have a certain level of veto power over pretty much any organizational decision by virtue of their position. Chris had something more... a deliberate leadership role with a management-level title in the football operation. He occupied this strange position on the organizational flowchart that appeared to have him answerable only to his brother and Steve Tisch, but imbued with a title that should fall under the purview of the GM. I don't care what anyone said, that to me was a problem.
Following the debacle of the last few years, the Giants' preferred narrative with regard to Chris failed because two things couldn't be true at once: (1) Chris is a skilled personnel guy, the head of the player personnel operation (so why have our personnel decisions been so bad in spite of him?); AND (2) Chris really isn't involved at all in the football operation (so is he derelicting his duties as a VP-PP?).
A consultant isn't, by definition, an organizational decisionmaker. And if that's really all Chris has been in the last few years, then he shouldn't hold an accountability-free, honorific title. I think this new title reflects a more appropriate role for him in the organization.
As for Tim McDonnell, while he's not presently an owner (his mother holds the share, IIRC), he's an heir, so that confers a certain degree of special privilege. But his case is much different from Chris, simply because of time. He hasn't been in the role long enough to establish any sort of track record, so I'm willing to let things play out. But I would approach his position, and relative degree of success/failure, in the same way I did Chris as VP-PP.
When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
The article linked at the bottom of this post also dives deep into this subject. You sound like a member of the Mara family Googs. The Maras are thin-skinned and proved it when John went into instant defense-mode regarding his brother's role and that of his nephew. Follow the tea leaves. It's not integral calculus or organic chemistry here...
Good lord, what nonsense. Dig a little deeper and you will start hypothesizing Chris was at Dealy Plaza that day back in Nov 1963.
John gets upset when asked because he knows it so stupid for people to go down this path. Especially when he has been clear that it is the GM that runs things (albeit as poorly as possible). His brother's presence in the building has little importance...
When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
No it's actually not. John went into what his brother does in the building when asked...it's in the article linked above. It's basically nothing. And you have been told to not concern yourself with the website/org chart with respect to Chris...so much that they just changed it to stop the media and folks like you going down rabbit holes.
Probably his more important role (ironic) is that Chris whispers in his brother's ear every now and then on topics, but that doesn't mean John's dumb thought-process got better or worse in doing so. Nor will it be prevented from happening no matter his title because, wait for it...he's an owner too.
Schoen is where you attention should be, he runs the show...
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
Exactly. Steve Tisch was there for a reason. The member of the Mara family to be dealt with next is Tim McDonnell.
RE: RE: RE: It’s good you are still here Speedy...
When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
No it's actually not. John went into what his brother does in the building when asked...it's in the article linked above. It's basically nothing. And you have been told to not concern yourself with the website/org chart with respect to Chris...so much that they just changed it to stop the media and folks like you going down rabbit holes.
Probably his more important role (ironic) is that Chris whispers in his brother's ear every now and then on topics, but that doesn't mean John's dumb thought-process got better or worse in doing so. Nor will it be prevented from happening no matter his title because, wait for it...he's an owner too.
Schoen is where you attention should be, he runs the show...
I see why you were accused of being a Mara on those archived threads. You sound so smart with those ellipses you incorrectly use, just like your ridiculous counter-points...
Blame Chris Mara all you want but he was in charge of nothing and did basically nothing. Just being at the scene of the crime while bad decisions were being made isn’t helpful but not sure you all wanted him there anyway.
The Maras were humbled a good bit during this last offseason and now are letting smarter football people and processes underpin this next regime. Changing Chris’ silly title for an even more toothless title is just part of it…
RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
RE: RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
RE: RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
RE: RE: RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
RE: RE: RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
Create my own text?…I hope so.
You’re over here capturing the mood and temperament of Chris from a 5 second video shot and suggesting it’s when he fell from grace.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeez, go look at the video from the Giants.....
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
Jerry in DC made a great point in the thread linked below:
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
Create my own text?…I hope so.
You’re over here capturing the mood and temperament of Chris from a 5 second video shot and suggesting it’s when he fell from grace.
Googs, love to stay and chat, but life's just too short.
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
Jerry in DC made a great point in the thread linked below:
Googs Mara is an expert at the Jedi Mind Trick...
(Archived Thread) Sirius now- Weis is PISSED about the Schwartz(BBI Mentioned) jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:13 am - ( New Window )
John Mara isn’t an expert at anything including misdirection like a Jedi.
Jerrry’s point is only half right. Player Personnel is a critical role but just because Chris Mara wasn’t doing it doesn’t mean the job wasn’t being done by the GM and his team. Done poorly of course, but it was being addressed.
I never said having Chris Mara in the bldg with that title is a good thing...it’s just more like a nothing imv. I would remove him altogether, and tell John to go play golf more as well. But I also wouldn’t spend time determined that Chris having a title results in some extra negative influence that may/may not exist because he can simply just provide the same as brother and an owner anyway. And those aren’t going away.
The Giants needed to find a quality GM that has strong player evaluation skills. Do that and all the family stuff will become irrelevant or fall in line.
I think Schoen gets two solid years to implement his vision. If he falters I expect the Mara's to start working themselves back in.
I think Schoen gets two solid years to implement his vision. If he falters I expect the Mara's to start working themselves back in.
I never took that Parcells line about Chris to be anything more than an endorsement for him just to stay in his good graces and as a sort of favor from Big Bill to CM.
Your point about the Maras slowly working themselves back in is also my fear. I think they'll give Schoen more than two years though. The Mara to keep an eye on going forward mostly will be Tim McDonnell. Fortunately though, I believe the Tisches have flexed their muscle and have made the Maras stand down from personnel much mor than before. It was no accident that Steve Tisch was in the Draft War Room this past April because he wasn't there in the past until then.
One thing is for sure: the Maras need to be placated and massaged gently to keep them at bay. George Young had an ironclad contract giving him final say, but even then he knew how to communicate between Tim and Wellington to keep things moving along slowly. Wellington was more honorable though then his sons. John and Chris don't have the same quality as their father. I'm not saying they're bad people, but Wellington kept his word to not interfere after 1979, although he did do some favors for people and this would occasionally come up in personnel. There was the time Tom Boisture was asked to draft one of Wellington's family friends (I forgot the year, but I think it was a Tight End in the late 90s or something). Anywho, things are looking up, but the Maras have stuck their noses into personnel in the past before. It'll be a matter of when, not if. For now though, all looks quiet on the Western front.
I agree with Tisch being more involved and this is should help allow Schoen to get at least some time to implement his plan. Now he has to deliver.
or
John M - "Chris, all the heat we are getting about nepotism would go away if we change your title. We are going to do that quietly but in reality we still really want your leadership and input on player personnel decisions."
My money is on the latter.
+1
I have little faith in the NY media, but there are good questions to ask at the next presser with either Schoen or Mara...
Why was Chris Mara's title changed? And who made that decision?
I’m hopeful Schoen represents a new era and real change. I still think the biggest development was *not* picking up Jones option.
Quote:
Hence, the changes. Methinks that the Maras on their own wouldn't have made all of these changes.
I have little faith in the NY media, but there are good questions to ask at the next presser with either Schoen or Mara...
Why was Chris Mara's title changed? And who made that decision?
If they don't ask the question, it would suggest they are afraid of asking the question.
@AngryNFLInsider
·
1m
Chris Mara is no longer listed as a member of the Player Personnel Department. Great job by Joe Schoen and the #Giants front office. Gotta tip your cap to John Mara as well. He’s stepped back and gave Joe Schoen the keys. #TogetherBlue #NFL
Quote:
Is Schoen going to take on that role this year?
My guess. Brandon Brown as part of is Asst GM responsibilities.
Much of Brown's experience is in pro not college scouting
or
John M - "Chris, all the heat we are getting about nepotism would go away if we change your title. We are going to do that quietly but in reality we still really want your leadership and input on player personnel decisions."
My money is on the latter.
To me it's really about how much the Tisch family is involved. If they are more so, it could be the former.
My guess (purely that), is they stayed on the sideline, which got us putrid teams and DG, which was perhaps the last straw.
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In comment 15745133 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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I have no idea what Chris Mara does. None.
What he did didn't help us; how much of a coincidence is it that the Giants' fortunes declined one year after he took the job?
Actually, really not true. He had essentially the same job, if not the same title, since 2003.
What I mean is that after the job title changed, the Giants really went downhill; again, how much of a coincidence is it?
I’ve thought for some time that the changes we saw happen - namely firing Judge and hiring a GM from outside the Giants ‘family’ - were from Tisch telling Mara things have to change.
Maybe Duggan will do an article about it at some point.
I'm crediting Ten Ton Hammer with getting the media to pay attention...
Mara article... - ( New Window )
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In comment 15745272 Optimus-NY said:
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Agreed.
As of 2012, Chris got that title. It's a significant one at that too. Look around other NFL Front Offices and that will tell you all you need to know.
Additionally, this is neither here nor there, but in the comments section on an article about the mess that was the giants prior to these changes taking place, a poster with knowledge said that to placate Chris after losing out to Reese for the GM title, that the Tisches and John gave Chris his previous title, but that they also had written into his contract that he made the picks for Rounds 3 to 7---which would explain a lot of their failures.
Nonsense. I am sure Chris had his say (in some years where the GM was vunerable). But whether they listened or not, it was still on the GM and his guys...
Chris Mara tried to be an NFL GM twice. It's obvious what happened here. He did make draft picks and openly discussed them. There's a reason he was removed from his role. This is your opinion, and you're entitled to it---no matter how wrong it is. Bottom line: CM is an owner who was involved in personnel. This is a fact. They weren't hiding it. The maras have a history of playing rotisserie foosball with their team. It just ran it's course this time, just like it did in the past.
No, this is the wrong sentiment. Not disputing he played around in scouting and player evals but don’t consider his role needed or useful, and he didn’t make picks.
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In comment 15745219 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15745111 Jimmy Googs said:
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His title was silly and never mattered anyway other than to himself. But now at least some of you Front Office Conspiracy Theorists are getting basically everything you wished for this offseason. Chris Mara is/has been the very least of our concerns.
The GM runs the show...
I know you feel vindicated and are enjoying this victory lap. But I think this is a good find by TTH and revealing.
John could have done absolutely nothing here and let Chris keep his big industry title. And simply downplay questions from the media like he did this year. Yet, John decided to change his brother's title. Why?
My guess is Chris had more power than you think - with DG here and prior years - and Schoen said he can't move the team forward with his vision with that dynamic hovering over him...
The Mara's changed it because they started getting crap about it from the media and websites like this. And they didn't have a good answer other than saying ego (which they chose not to).
Nothing to do with power, only vein and insecurity.
Move on my friend. Nothing to see here...
Once again, you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
But once a chucklehead, always a chucklehead…
🤷🏻♂️
Who’s talking to you? Would have thought you left with the rest of the posters that got everything wrong about the team for past several years...
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In comment 15745364 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15745219 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15745111 Jimmy Googs said:
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His title was silly and never mattered anyway other than to himself. But now at least some of you Front Office Conspiracy Theorists are getting basically everything you wished for this offseason. Chris Mara is/has been the very least of our concerns.
The GM runs the show...
I know you feel vindicated and are enjoying this victory lap. But I think this is a good find by TTH and revealing.
John could have done absolutely nothing here and let Chris keep his big industry title. And simply downplay questions from the media like he did this year. Yet, John decided to change his brother's title. Why?
My guess is Chris had more power than you think - with DG here and prior years - and Schoen said he can't move the team forward with his vision with that dynamic hovering over him...
The Mara's changed it because they started getting crap about it from the media and websites like this. And they didn't have a good answer other than saying ego (which they chose not to).
Nothing to do with power, only vein and insecurity.
Move on my friend. Nothing to see here...
Once again, you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
But once a chucklehead, always a chucklehead…
🤷🏻♂️
Who’s talking to you? Would have thought you left with the rest of the posters that got everything wrong about the team for past several years...
Except I haven’t.
🤷🏻♂️
Chris Mara is no longer listed on the team’s official website as part of the Giants’ player personnel department.
Mara, part of the family that shares ownership of the franchise with the Tisch family, has done two stints in the team’s personnel department. His latest stint began in 21003, and he had held the title Senior Vice President of Player Personnel since 2011. Until this week’s change.
Mara is now listed only in the ownership section on the team’s website.
Tim McDonnell is the top name in personnel, with the title Director of Player Personnel. Chris Rossetti, hired this offseason by GM Joe Schoen, is Director of Pro Scouting. Dennis Hickey, former Miami Dolphins GM and most recently a senior college scout for the Buffalo Bills, is Assistant Director of Player Personnel.
Schoen has removed several people from the front office, including former co-director of player personnel Mark Koncz, college scouting director Chris Pettit, senior personnel executive Kyle O’Brien, senior pro scouting executive Ken Sternfeld, and pro scout/systems analyst Matt Schauger.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
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In comment 15745368 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15745272 Optimus-NY said:
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Agreed.
As of 2012, Chris got that title. It's a significant one at that too. Look around other NFL Front Offices and that will tell you all you need to know.
Additionally, this is neither here nor there, but in the comments section on an article about the mess that was the giants prior to these changes taking place, a poster with knowledge said that to placate Chris after losing out to Reese for the GM title, that the Tisches and John gave Chris his previous title, but that they also had written into his contract that he made the picks for Rounds 3 to 7---which would explain a lot of their failures.
Nonsense. I am sure Chris had his say (in some years where the GM was vunerable). But whether they listened or not, it was still on the GM and his guys...
Chris Mara tried to be an NFL GM twice. It's obvious what happened here. He did make draft picks and openly discussed them. There's a reason he was removed from his role. This is your opinion, and you're entitled to it---no matter how wrong it is. Bottom line: CM is an owner who was involved in personnel. This is a fact. They weren't hiding it. The maras have a history of playing rotisserie foosball with their team. It just ran it's course this time, just like it did in the past.
No, this is the wrong sentiment. Not disputing he played around in scouting and player evals but don’t consider his role needed or useful, and he didn’t make picks.
You can choose to bury your head in the sand if you want to Googs, but it doesn't change anything. His title was significant and extremely "needed and useful". He absolutely had a major role in player selection, hence his title: SENIOR VICE PRESEIDENT OF PLAYER PERSONNEL.
Poster regulator nailed it in the archived thread listed below:
(Archived Thread) Sirius now- Weis is PISSED about the Schwartz(BBI Mentioned) - jvm52106 : 1/13/2022
The article linked at the bottom of this post also dives deep into this subject. You sound like a member of the Mara family Googs. The Maras are thin-skinned and proved it when John went into instant defense-mode regarding his brother's role and that of his nephew. Follow the tea leaves. It's not integral calculus or organic chemistry here...
Why John Mara’s latest claim about the Giants is hard to believe | Politi - Updated: Jan. 12, 2022, 8:42 p.m. | Published: Jan. 12, 2022, 7:05 p.m. - ( New Window )
Let's hope we see positive results over the next few years on the field in more wins and playoffs.
Honestly, this time last year I never thought we would see these positive changes in the Giants FO.
Most important of all, he was unfireable. This is what George Young preached against for years. He has essentially been "fired", nut he'll always be the owner for as long as he continues to live.
Let's hope we see positive results over the next few years on the field in more wins and playoffs.
Honestly, this time last year I never thought we would see these positive changes in the Giants FO.
Don't forget the Tisches. I give them more credit for all of the positive organizational changes we've seen than I do the Maras. They do won 50 percent of the team.
Fine. But he still had the title, and for that, he couldn't just skate. Owners all around the league, and in other sports, have a certain level of veto power over pretty much any organizational decision by virtue of their position. Chris had something more... a deliberate leadership role with a management-level title in the football operation. He occupied this strange position on the organizational flowchart that appeared to have him answerable only to his brother and Steve Tisch, but imbued with a title that should fall under the purview of the GM. I don't care what anyone said, that to me was a problem.
Following the debacle of the last few years, the Giants' preferred narrative with regard to Chris failed because two things couldn't be true at once: (1) Chris is a skilled personnel guy, the head of the player personnel operation (so why have our personnel decisions been so bad in spite of him?); AND (2) Chris really isn't involved at all in the football operation (so is he derelicting his duties as a VP-PP?).
A consultant isn't, by definition, an organizational decisionmaker. And if that's really all Chris has been in the last few years, then he shouldn't hold an accountability-free, honorific title. I think this new title reflects a more appropriate role for him in the organization.
As for Tim McDonnell, while he's not presently an owner (his mother holds the share, IIRC), he's an heir, so that confers a certain degree of special privilege. But his case is much different from Chris, simply because of time. He hasn't been in the role long enough to establish any sort of track record, so I'm willing to let things play out. But I would approach his position, and relative degree of success/failure, in the same way I did Chris as VP-PP.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
The article linked at the bottom of this post also dives deep into this subject. You sound like a member of the Mara family Googs. The Maras are thin-skinned and proved it when John went into instant defense-mode regarding his brother's role and that of his nephew. Follow the tea leaves. It's not integral calculus or organic chemistry here...
Good lord, what nonsense. Dig a little deeper and you will start hypothesizing Chris was at Dealy Plaza that day back in Nov 1963.
John gets upset when asked because he knows it so stupid for people to go down this path. Especially when he has been clear that it is the GM that runs things (albeit as poorly as possible). His brother's presence in the building has little importance...
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When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
No it's actually not. John went into what his brother does in the building when asked...it's in the article linked above. It's basically nothing. And you have been told to not concern yourself with the website/org chart with respect to Chris...so much that they just changed it to stop the media and folks like you going down rabbit holes.
Probably his more important role (ironic) is that Chris whispers in his brother's ear every now and then on topics, but that doesn't mean John's dumb thought-process got better or worse in doing so. Nor will it be prevented from happening no matter his title because, wait for it...he's an owner too.
Schoen is where you attention should be, he runs the show...
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
Exactly. Steve Tisch was there for a reason. The member of the Mara family to be dealt with next is Tim McDonnell.
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In comment 15746195 Jimmy Googs said:
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When you give you your views, it helps give others some perspective as to how fans can look at things with the team and still not get it. It makes them feel good about themselves.
And I like you of course because of these fun exchanges...
The burden of proof was always on you in these Mara discussions. The Giants website makes it plain as day what Chris Mara's role was - and now is.
It's on you to prove Chris Mara had nothing to do with the Giants recent failures and had no role in the organization, and that these threads were and are irrelevant.
No it's actually not. John went into what his brother does in the building when asked...it's in the article linked above. It's basically nothing. And you have been told to not concern yourself with the website/org chart with respect to Chris...so much that they just changed it to stop the media and folks like you going down rabbit holes.
Probably his more important role (ironic) is that Chris whispers in his brother's ear every now and then on topics, but that doesn't mean John's dumb thought-process got better or worse in doing so. Nor will it be prevented from happening no matter his title because, wait for it...he's an owner too.
Schoen is where you attention should be, he runs the show...
I see why you were accused of being a Mara on those archived threads. You sound so smart with those ellipses you incorrectly use, just like your ridiculous counter-points...
The Maras were humbled a good bit during this last offseason and now are letting smarter football people and processes underpin this next regime. Changing Chris’ silly title for an even more toothless title is just part of it…
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
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draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
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draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
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In comment 15746316 MOOPS said:
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draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
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In comment 15746316 MOOPS said:
Quote:
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
Create my own text?…I hope so.
You’re over here capturing the mood and temperament of Chris from a 5 second video shot and suggesting it’s when he fell from grace.
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In comment 15746365 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15746316 MOOPS said:
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draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
Jerry in DC made a great point in the thread linked below:
Googs Mara is an expert at the Jedi Mind Trick...
(Archived Thread) Sirius now- Weis is PISSED about the Schwartz(BBI Mentioned) jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:13 am - ( New Window )
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In comment 15746365 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15746316 MOOPS said:
Quote:
draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
Big difference between looking like you're enjoying the moment vs. having just been chemically castrated.
Go with the text presented, don't create your own.
Create my own text?…I hope so.
You’re over here capturing the mood and temperament of Chris from a 5 second video shot and suggesting it’s when he fell from grace.
Googs, love to stay and chat, but life's just too short.
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In comment 15746384 Optimus-NY said:
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In comment 15746365 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15746316 MOOPS said:
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draft room on draft day. Chris Mara had a puss on him like somebody just stole the secret decoder ring from his Cracker Jack box.
Whatever the frig he used to do, he sure as hell ain't doing it anymore.
So in all the previous drafts he was see running the Room, on the phone making deals and orchestrating the picks like he was Gordon Gekko?
Ahem…no.
His title was Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. That actually means something. You probably deny the sky is blue during a sunny summer's day too, so there's no point in engaging individuals such as yourself. What a mongo you are...
No it actually doesn’t. Player Personnel all reported to the GM. Still does.
He was an owner who wanted a football title and they gave him that and an office to fill out 5 or so college evals a year. And he got to go on road-trips like to senior bowl and draft…cool huh?
Jerry in DC made a great point in the thread linked below:
Googs Mara is an expert at the Jedi Mind Trick...
(Archived Thread) Sirius now- Weis is PISSED about the Schwartz(BBI Mentioned) jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:13 am - ( New Window )
John Mara isn’t an expert at anything including misdirection like a Jedi.
Jerrry’s point is only half right. Player Personnel is a critical role but just because Chris Mara wasn’t doing it doesn’t mean the job wasn’t being done by the GM and his team. Done poorly of course, but it was being addressed.
I never said having Chris Mara in the bldg with that title is a good thing...it’s just more like a nothing imv. I would remove him altogether, and tell John to go play golf more as well. But I also wouldn’t spend time determined that Chris having a title results in some extra negative influence that may/may not exist because he can simply just provide the same as brother and an owner anyway. And those aren’t going away.
The Giants needed to find a quality GM that has strong player evaluation skills. Do that and all the family stuff will become irrelevant or fall in line.