Duggan - Daniel Jones, how good is good enough?

There will be games that he shows what he can do when given time.

There will be games he puts up big numbers.

There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning.

There will be games where he is running for his life and throws some picks.

I think if the highs are high enough, with the roster as thin as it is in certain areas, he will show he's worth keeping over another player in the draft, most likely. If he plays us out of the top 15, i think we'll know we have an answer.

Duggan suggests, Tanny, Jimmy G, it will be an enormous mistake.

But I do think Schoen and Daboll are smarter than that.

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The goal is to get a game-changer. If you find one of those guys, it’s worth paying them $40 million-plus per year. But if you don’t have one of those guys, it’s better to take a swing at finding one in the draft and building around an inexpensive quarterback for four to five years.

Basically unless he has the QB equivalent of Aaron Judge's season to date, it's best to move on

We're not getting a QB next year so I hope everyone is ready....

buckle up

In comment 15745886 RAIN said:

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There will be games that he shows what he can do when given time. There will be games he puts up big numbers. There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning. There will be games where he is running for his life and throws some picks. I think if the highs are high enough, with the roster as thin as it is in certain areas, he will show he's worth keeping over another player in the draft, most likely. If he plays us out of the top 15, i think we'll know we have an answer.

What qb is this again?
"There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning."

He hasn't done that since he's been here. After 4 years as the unchallenged starter and 4 years of pro qb coaching in a "power conference" you guys are still thinking there is some undiscovered throwing talent here that some miracle scheme will unearth like buried treasure.

Quit worrying about what other teams have and what they are going to do with it in 2023. We will have a different qb here whether a vet like Goff or Garrappolo (either of whom are heads and shoulders better than Danny Dimes) or we spend what we have to spend to draft the qb Schoen and Daboll want. If they find a Justin Herbert, who cares if they trade the whole freaking draft away. Either way, Danny Dimes is done here and will be some contending team's insurance.

In comment 15745908 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 15745886 RAIN said: Quote: There will be games that he shows what he can do when given time. There will be games he puts up big numbers. There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning. There will be games where he is running for his life and throws some picks. I think if the highs are high enough, with the roster as thin as it is in certain areas, he will show he's worth keeping over another player in the draft, most likely. If he plays us out of the top 15, i think we'll know we have an answer. What qb is this again? "There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning." He hasn't done that since he's been here. After 4 years as the unchallenged starter and 4 years of pro qb coaching in a "power conference" you guys are still thinking there is some undiscovered throwing talent here that some miracle scheme will unearth like buried treasure. Quit worrying about what other teams have and what they are going to do with it in 2023. We will have a different qb here whether a vet like Goff or Garrappolo (either of whom are heads and shoulders better than Danny Dimes) or we spend what we have to spend to draft the qb Schoen and Daboll want. If they find a Justin Herbert, who cares if they trade the whole freaking draft away. Either way, Danny Dimes is done here and will be some contending team's insurance.

If he's good enough for a contending team,who's starter is OUT with an injury, he's good enough here with the Giants

lot of things for JS to evaluate. BD will need to win fairly soon. Mara can talk patience all he wants but this is a very impatient market.

My guess is they draft one next year and I agree with Homer that you give up what you have to if you have a conviction. If they can't or don't see a QB in next years draft the need the best viable decision till they can try again. With that they will need to win some games in the interim imv.

It's an excellent question, but not one we can answer until it's time to answer it. It's kind of like porn: you're not sure how to describe it, but you know it when you see it. This is why it's nice to have the franchise tag as an option.

If he doesn't take a step forward this year, i think our record will show it.

If he's still running for his life, and we are drafting top 5, i think we will find his replacement and consider him a sunk cost. Last year, there really weren't options.

Malik Willis would have been an intriguing flyer to take in the third, but other than that, no other picks i believe were warranted over 5 and 7.

Well see, time will tell, and this year will be telling with a modern offense and a line that holds up. All of these aren't given, but the Jones is bum crowd, will get their answer with some actual options in the draft to consider if we are picking high.

In comment 15745908 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 15745886 RAIN said: Quote: There will be games that he shows what he can do when given time. There will be games he puts up big numbers. There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning. There will be games where he is running for his life and throws some picks. I think if the highs are high enough, with the roster as thin as it is in certain areas, he will show he's worth keeping over another player in the draft, most likely. If he plays us out of the top 15, i think we'll know we have an answer. What qb is this again? "There will be games when he is up against it, and keep us close in games we have no business winning." He hasn't done that since he's been here. After 4 years as the unchallenged starter and 4 years of pro qb coaching in a "power conference" you guys are still thinking there is some undiscovered throwing talent here that some miracle scheme will unearth like buried treasure. Quit worrying about what other teams have and what they are going to do with it in 2023. We will have a different qb here whether a vet like Goff or Garrappolo (either of whom are heads and shoulders better than Danny Dimes) or we spend what we have to spend to draft the qb Schoen and Daboll want. If they find a Justin Herbert, who cares if they trade the whole freaking draft away. Either way, Danny Dimes is done here and will be some contending team's insurance.

4 years? what 4 years? He's been here 3.

He's played 38 games, that's a tad over 2 years experience, total. There's no getting around that, and he's been set up to be fucked so far. He has enough experience to have an opinion on him, not enough to KNOW what he is in a non dysfunctional environment.

And those guys are never gonna be Super Bowl winners but will get you to the playoffs every once in a while, is that what we want to be locking ourselves into at big money per year with a “best case” Daniel Jones?

Been to a super bowl and conference championship the last 4 years. Not a bad track record at all

In comment 15746029 g56blue10 said:

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Been to a super bowl and conference championship the last 4 years. Not a bad track record at all

So you’d be ok paying Daniel Jones $27-30 million/year as Jimmy G 2.0?

Is in his hands. No matter how well or poorly he plays, the Giants have only one option that they control - franchise tag. Other than that, he will be a free agent and will have his choice of going anywhere he wants or anywhere he will be taken.

That’s why this continuing debate is ridiculous at least until they Giants post some scores.

So, if you ask me what is good enough to offer the franchise tag, I would guess at 9-8 AND being in the playoff hunt until the last week. That only gets Jones a franchise tag for one year as the Giants kick the can down the road.

First, lets say both have superb years and you can only keep one due to cap, well you keep the QB and tag him or sign him long which we won't due for just one good season.

My gut says both players will have very solid seasons on an average talent team lacking top end playmakers and both will walk as UFA's. If I had to "bet" that would be the bet I'd take and we draft a QB and begin anew with a great cap and perhaps #3 comp picks in 2024.

How big would the leap have to be to justify a second (large) contract. He could of course sign a middling deal but is that what Daboll and Schoen want, a middling QB?

Among others, I'm watching Van Dyke this fall. Good size, accurate, processes well, mobile, and likely goes around pick 10.

I think Schoen/Daboll take their guy in the 23 draft.

... when you say his head is screwed up?

Every quarterback misses open targets because they're going through a progression and the guy running wide open down the field is not the first read or two.
I would imagine that the reeds in Peyton's system are very simple, One,two, three, run.
The reeds in Dabs O sound like they will be leverage based. If DJ is as smart as everyone around him seems to believe that he is, you'll find those receivers.

Add to the fact that up until this year the QB has likely been told don't put the ball in harm's Way.
It sounds like this season, DJ has been told to trust the receivers and put the ball where they can get to it.

My point is, hesitancy has been encouraged, either by design or fear...
... That appears to be a thing of the past.

and

2. Can he stay reasonably healthy (i.e. not miss multiple games)?

So far he hasn't done either of those things in any season.

Under Shurmur Jones took forever in the pocket to get the ball out and often got creamed for a fumble or got hurried and threw a pick.

Under Garrett (in my opinion), they limited the playbook to plays that don't take long to develop (short, simple routes) or that Jones could quickly process (only focus on 1st or 2nd read). The result? Less turnovers but way less TDs.

I am anxious to see if Jones can run a full playbook, throw approx. 25 TDs and not turn the ball over, and play a full season.

If he can't do that, then there's no reason to keep him.

In comment 15746027 The_Boss said:

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And those guys are never gonna be Super Bowl winners but will get you to the playoffs every once in a while, is that what we want to be locking ourselves into at big money per year with a “best case” Daniel Jones?

They are not. Tannehill was his absolute ceiling and he's never come close to reaching it. The likely ceiling was Case Keenum, and that's where we are.

In comment 15745889 Scooter185 said:

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Quote: The goal is to get a game-changer. If you find one of those guys, it’s worth paying them $40 million-plus per year. But if you don’t have one of those guys, it’s better to take a swing at finding one in the draft and building around an inexpensive quarterback for four to five years. Basically unless he has the QB equivalent of Aaron Judge's season to date, it's best to move on

So he s got to be one of the top three quarterbacks in the league or Giants should move on. You might want to rethink that position.

In comment 15746059 The_Boss said:

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In comment 15746029 g56blue10 said: Quote: Been to a super bowl and conference championship the last 4 years. Not a bad track record at all So you’d be ok paying Daniel Jones $27-30 million/year as Jimmy G 2.0?

Jimmy G is heads and shoulders better than Jones. So is Goff for that matter.

And Duggan, like the vocal group here, has had his mind made up on Jones and Barkley for some time

In comment 15745894 bluewave said:

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We're not getting a QB next year so I hope everyone is ready....

This is not true.....there’s other ways to move up in the draft, but it’ll be costly in terms of future picks or an abundance of current year picks. There’s also players that could be traded as well.

If the offense decides to play football it’s going to be fun to watch.

Not excuses. Not what ifs. One of the 10 best QBs in the NFL. That is what we need if we are going to invest in someone.

For 4000 yards and 35 TDS with a total of 20 TO (a plus of 15), how would that rank him amongst his peers. With as much as they are going to throw it, I’m betting those are the numbers Daboll and Kafka are looking for.

Top 12 and a pro bowler. Some here have decided “no shot, he’s a bum”. Maybe, I suspect, as unlikely as it sounds, there’s more there.
It’s up to Daboll and Kafka to get it out of him.

He has to have a STELLAR year IMO.

Im talking like 4000 passing yards 35 plus TDs with a 2-1 TD to INT rate, and an INT number around 10-12, with a 65%+ completion rate, throw in about 300-500 yards rushing and 5 rushing TDs.. you can make a STRONG argument he has turned the corner and is your guy..

HERE lies the problem for me.. Lets say he is this guy..

Around 3500 yards passing.. a 2-1 TD to INT ratio with around 30 TDs and 12-15 INTs, a completion rate is 60-65% and the same rushing yards and rushing TDs.

Thats improvement for sure.. but is it improvement that you are willing to spend 30 plus million dollars for on his next contract?

or would you rather draft a QB who will be cheaper for the next 5 years? probably someone like Will Levis or Anthony Richardson

(I dont think the Giants will be able to get a Stroud or Young, I think their record will be good enough to be outside striking range for those two )

Thats my Jones dilema. he has to be good enough that you will pay him and not go back to the well for a younger cheaper QB on a rookie deal.

But as noted above we can draft a QB with a cheap cap number and hope he has similar to better numbers? It is a hard, hard choice to tag and then pay a big contract to a guy who has been hurt so much and has only one good first season in a new system? So so so so hard and my gut says a new regime goes with a new QB and I suspect knows then that year #2 will be about developing him not necessarily winning.

The "safe" play is a new QB; the expensive play and risk is resigning Jones long-term; the expensive play is tagging him and if he plays big again you pay him.

I went back quickly and counted 29 Qbs drafted in RD 1 between 2010-2019 and I get 7 that you could consider successes (Murray, Allen, Jackson, Mahomes, Watson, Luck and Newton) and out of them Newton and Luck are done and Murray and Watson have some real questions. This is why even the above average ones get paid so much, it is a very inexact science and you need to keep the ones who give you at least some chance to win because you can go a long time without a capable QB (Browns, Bears, etc.

There is nothing new in that situation.

From that mailbag article, the Thibodeaux question and answer is way more compelling. Confirmation that unnamed members of the front office, early on did in fact have reservations about his personality? Bryan Cox gave him such a hard time during a dinner meeting that KT had to leave the table to compose himself? (good on you Cox, need to see how the kid handles pressure). That is very interesting stuff.

In comment 15746670 Walker Gillette said:

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I went back quickly and counted 29 Qbs drafted in RD 1 between 2010-2019 and I get 7 that you could consider successes (Murray, Allen, Jackson, Mahomes, Watson, Luck and Newton) and out of them Newton and Luck are done and Murray and Watson have some real questions. This is why even the above average ones get paid so much, it is a very inexact science and you need to keep the ones who give you at least some chance to win because you can go a long time without a capable QB (Browns, Bears, etc.

While I'm rooting for DJ and I think that the situations under which he's had to play have been as bad as it gets, there is really no history of reclamation among the QBs that have failed to meet their scholastic, for lack of a better word, expectations.