Interesting 1,200+ word essay on the Giants for the upcoming season and beyond. Here is a poor summary of this worthwhile read:
(1) Interesting stat -- prior to Daniel Jones injury, Giants played nearly .500 ball over 21 games (10-11);
(2) GBN believes this team has the potential to play slightly over .500 this season;
(3) Between Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, more likely the former gets extended, although Barkley could get franchised if he puts up big numbers as a slash player;
(4) If the Giants only had the 5th pick in Round One, their guess is it would have been Kayvon Thibodeaux over Evan Neal;
(5) GBN's winning philosophy has been about big plays out of skill players and that is the key to winning -- more so than the performance of the Giants revamped offensive line;
(6) Darius Slayton may be a key "under-the-radar" vet with his ability to stretch the field, and a deep threat WR is a key priority in 2023 Draft. Pass rush and CB will also be priorities for Joe Schoen next Draft.
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I was really hoping for Hall. I think he's going to be a monster, and recalling the Bills drafting Epenesa and Rousseau, I figured he'd be high on the Giants' wish-list. I would've loved to see him lining up with Williams and Lawrence.
As for Watson, I would've been fine with him. We'll never know if the Giants would've picked him if he was still available, but since they drafted Robinson after the trade-down, after Watson was gone, I think it's clear that they really coveted the kid. After all, they passed up several other highly-rated WR prospects like Pickens, Pierce, Matchie, and Moore when they chose Robinson. Only time will tell if they made the right choice.
You're a football message board poster (like we all are) with NO sources. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it so.
Here's what GBN says:
"...it is our understanding based on info from our sources that Thibo was the Giants’ top choice from the get-go."
Thats not bad considering they had the worst combination of front office, coaching staff, skill players, OL & injuries in the league.
Thats not bad considering they had the worst combination of front office, coaching staff, skill players, OL & injuries in the league.
Since the 9-10 stretch began with a four game win streak in 2020, you could also say that NYG was 5-10 in its last 15 before Jones went down with his 2021 neck injury.
There's so much turnover from year to year that combining seasons is meaningless.
I do think Giants can be near .500 this year because the schedule is so favorable, playing a lot of teams with questionable QB situations of their own.
Thats not bad considering they had the worst combination of front office, coaching staff, skill players, OL & injuries in the league.
Except the number is not accurate. Jones was hurt in the Philly game, which they actually won. I am not sure if the writer is including that game or not, because he says 21 games "prior" to Jones's injury.
But whether he includes the game or not, the record would be the same. The 21 games prior to the the Philly game the Giants were 9-12.
The 20 games prior to Eagles game the Giants were 8-12. Add the Philly game (when Jones got hurt) in the 21 total and its 9-12.
Yeah, the writer was only off by a game, but 9-12 is not as close to .500 as 10-11, and that's clear even for the "mathematically challenged" like the writer apparently is.
But let's not forget that one of those "prior 21" games was a win by Colt McCoy. Since the writer is discussing Jones when he talks about the prior 21 games, the McCoy win really isn't relevant. Take it out, and the Giants' record is 8-12, a .400 winning percentage.
But anyway, citing the "prior 21" games ignores Jones's 1-5 start to the 2020 season. So this is another "if you ignore the bad, then it's pretty good" kind of bullshit stat.
And how will they get “big plays out of the skill position people on offense.” if the OL doesn’t pass block and/or run block well. We know the answer as we’ve been watching it for 10 years or so. There will be no big plays out of the skill position people on offense without a competent OL.
Agree with Bill T about the OL. This has been the Achilles heal for a decade. Want to improve QB play and augment your skill guys? Win first down with a much higher percentage and everybody will benefit imv.
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We’d also love to know what their thinking was at the top of the second round. As the clock was ticking down on the start of the second day’s picks we had two players on ‘our’ short list for the Giants who were picking third in the second round. The two were DE Logan Hall and WR Christian Watson, who were in fact the first two players selected in the second round. Don’t know what the Giants were thinking at the time, but it would be interesting to know if Watson was a target or whether Wan’dale Robinson, who the Giants ultimately chose after a couple of trade down was the target all along.
I was really hoping for Hall. I think he's going to be a monster, and recalling the Bills drafting Epenesa and Rousseau, I figured he'd be high on the Giants' wish-list. I would've loved to see him lining up with Williams and Lawrence.
As for Watson, I would've been fine with him. We'll never know if the Giants would've picked him if he was still available, but since they drafted Robinson after the trade-down, after Watson was gone, I think it's clear that they really coveted the kid. After all, they passed up several other highly-rated WR prospects like Pickens, Pierce, Matchie, and Moore when they chose Robinson. Only time will tell if they made the right choice.
After the trade with Atlanta, who would have been your picks on Day 2 (Rounds 2 and 3)?
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We’d also love to know what their thinking was at the top of the second round. As the clock was ticking down on the start of the second day’s picks we had two players on ‘our’ short list for the Giants who were picking third in the second round. The two were DE Logan Hall and WR Christian Watson, who were in fact the first two players selected in the second round. Don’t know what the Giants were thinking at the time, but it would be interesting to know if Watson was a target or whether Wan’dale Robinson, who the Giants ultimately chose after a couple of trade down was the target all along.
I was really hoping for Hall. I think he's going to be a monster, and recalling the Bills drafting Epenesa and Rousseau, I figured he'd be high on the Giants' wish-list. I would've loved to see him lining up with Williams and Lawrence.
As for Watson, I would've been fine with him. We'll never know if the Giants would've picked him if he was still available, but since they drafted Robinson after the trade-down, after Watson was gone, I think it's clear that they really coveted the kid. After all, they passed up several other highly-rated WR prospects like Pickens, Pierce, Matchie, and Moore when they chose Robinson. Only time will tell if they made the right choice.
After the trade with Atlanta, who would have been your picks on Day 2 (Rounds 2 and 3)?
In the 2nd, OC Cam Jurgens (and not just because he had the best nickname of any draft prospect).
In the 3rd, tough call, lots of variables. Might have gone with OT Abe Lucas or TE Jelani Woods.
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And if Sauce Gardner was available it would have been him as well...
You're a football message board poster (like we all are) with NO sources. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it so.
Here's what GBN says:
"...it is our understanding based on info from our sources that Thibo was the Giants’ top choice from the get-go."
My sources are simple...Schoen and Daboll’s transcripts and common sense logic. I understand if we aren’t all using those...
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In comment 15747830 Klaatu said:
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We’d also love to know what their thinking was at the top of the second round. As the clock was ticking down on the start of the second day’s picks we had two players on ‘our’ short list for the Giants who were picking third in the second round. The two were DE Logan Hall and WR Christian Watson, who were in fact the first two players selected in the second round. Don’t know what the Giants were thinking at the time, but it would be interesting to know if Watson was a target or whether Wan’dale Robinson, who the Giants ultimately chose after a couple of trade down was the target all along.
I was really hoping for Hall. I think he's going to be a monster, and recalling the Bills drafting Epenesa and Rousseau, I figured he'd be high on the Giants' wish-list. I would've loved to see him lining up with Williams and Lawrence.
As for Watson, I would've been fine with him. We'll never know if the Giants would've picked him if he was still available, but since they drafted Robinson after the trade-down, after Watson was gone, I think it's clear that they really coveted the kid. After all, they passed up several other highly-rated WR prospects like Pickens, Pierce, Matchie, and Moore when they chose Robinson. Only time will tell if they made the right choice.
After the trade with Atlanta, who would have been your picks on Day 2 (Rounds 2 and 3)?
In the 2nd, OC Cam Jurgens (and not just because he had the best nickname of any draft prospect).
In the 3rd, tough call, lots of variables. Might have gone with OT Abe Lucas or TE Jelani Woods.
I would have gone with WR Pierce in the 2nd, and for the 3rd round with LB Chad Muma as our first pick. For the second pick in the 3rd round it would be a coin flip between DT Demarvin Leal and OG/OC Dylan Parham.
10-11 before he got hurt with that mess of a team and you scoff at the possibility of 9 wins?
That’s kind of silly
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With Jones at QB? Lol
10-11 before he got hurt with that mess of a team and you scoff at the possibility of 9 wins?
That’s kind of silly
Except it wasn't 10-11. It was 9-12, and one of those wins was Colt McCoy. So Jones was 8-12 in those games.
The guy that wrote that article can't add.
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In comment 15747819 Jimmy Googs said:
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And if Sauce Gardner was available it would have been him as well...
You're a football message board poster (like we all are) with NO sources. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it so.
Here's what GBN says:
"...it is our understanding based on info from our sources that Thibo was the Giants’ top choice from the get-go."
My sources are simple...Schoen and Daboll’s transcripts and common sense logic. I understand if we aren’t all using those...
I trust GBN because they approached the question with an open mind and spoke to their sources before sharing their opinion.
You on the other hand bashed all ERs before the draft (especially Thibs) saying that none were worthy of the 5th overall pick. And then, despite the fact that neither Schoen nor Daboll ever publicly suggested that they would have chosen Neal over Thibs if they only had one 1st RD pick... you declare that GBN is WRONG based on your interpretation of the Schoen/Daboll transcripts.
I guess you were right about not all of us using common sense logic.
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In comment 15748024 Scooter185 said:
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With Jones at QB? Lol
10-11 before he got hurt with that mess of a team and you scoff at the possibility of 9 wins?
That’s kind of silly
Except it wasn't 10-11. It was 9-12, and one of those wins was Colt McCoy. So Jones was 8-12 in those games.
The guy that wrote that article can't add.
Yea read that after I posted. But his post remains silly.
With one pick it would most certainly be OT where the Giants were certainly desperate and only had Thomas and even he is coming off surgery for second straight year. This draft was always about getting a solid OT with one of those first two picks. Always.
The Giants, while not disappointed with their picks, actually wanted different guys at each of the first 3 picks. The platinum scenario was Gardner, Ekwonu and then probably an Ebiketie in Rd 2. They wound up with Thibs, Neal and then traded back in Rd 2 when their backup CB McCreary was already taken and got a few more pieces.
Such is a fluid draft...
Schoen did
Thats not bad considering they had the worst combination of front office, coaching staff, skill players, OL & injuries in the league.
The question that no one ever wants to answer:
Why is it that the QB is the poor victim of the problem and not a part of the problem?
Jones has gotten injured as much as anyone on the team, for one thing. For another, you don't know how much those coaches and skill position players were held back by or forced to be conservative due to mediocre QB play. You don't know how much of the OL issues might be caused by poor protection calls by the QB.
There is so much about football that is interwoven from one position to another, from player to coach, and vice versa. Separating one player - even the QB - for the purposes of assigning blame seems to be frowned upon by the Jones apologists, yet that's the go-to tactic when they want to make excuses.
The previous GM shit the bed at just about every turn. Why anyone believes that this one specific choice of his is the one he got right in spite of everything else that he did wrong is mind-boggling.
Is it a given that Jones sucks? No. But it's wishful thinking at this point to assume otherwise.
P.S., that 10-11 stat is the definition of cherry-picking. Essentially, it's just lopping off the 0-5 start to the 2020 season for convenience as though those games didn't count. As for the 21 games that GBN did include for their "stat," if you take the per-game average performance from that stretch and extrapolate it over a full 17-game season (ha!), you get the following stat line (implied 2021 league ranking in parens):
325 completions (18th)
508 attempts (17th)
3449 passing yards (19th)
6.8 Y/A (T-23rd)
15 passing TDs (27th)
10 interceptions (T-18th)
11 fumbles (T-6th)
5 fumbles lost
87 rushing attempts (5th among QBs)
478 rushing yards (5th among QBs)
2 rushing TDs (T-28th among QBs)
What a dynamo.
And how will they get “big plays out of the skill position people on offense.” if the OL doesn’t pass block and/or run block well. We know the answer as we’ve been watching it for 10 years or so. There will be no big plays out of the skill position people on offense without a competent OL.
Somebody ought to let Joe Burrow know.
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With Jones at QB? Lol
10-11 before he got hurt with that mess of a team and you scoff at the possibility of 9 wins?
That’s kind of silly
Yes I scoff at it because Jones isn't a good QB.
508 attempts (17th)
3449 passing yards (19th)
6.8 Y/A (T-23rd)
15 passing TDs (27th)
10 interceptions (T-18th)
11 fumbles (T-6th)
5 fumbles lost
87 rushing attempts (5th among QBs)
478 rushing yards (5th among QBs)
2 rushing TDs (T-28th among QBs)
For fun, this is what the same extrapolation looks like for the 5 games from 2020 that GBN excluded:
377 completions
619 attempts
3774 passing yards
6.1 Y/A
7 passing TDs
17 interceptions
14 fumbles
10 fumbles lost
68 rushing attempts
442 rushing yards
0 rushing TDs
That statline looks pretty similar in the yardage categories. The biggest difference is the TDs and the turnovers. And in a shocking twist, the biggest issues for DJ have been that the offense doesn't score enough with him at QB, and that opening the offense up (significantly higher passing attempts in the 5-game extrapolation) may result in a sharp increase in turnovers.
So this is where we'd expect him to improve if the team is going to have any chance to succeed with him at QB. But there's no big reveal here - if DJ doesn't throw more TDs and keep turnovers limited, the team won't win. That's exactly what we've known about him for three years.
Let's see him actually do it.
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In comment 15748024 Scooter185 said:
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With Jones at QB? Lol
10-11 before he got hurt with that mess of a team and you scoff at the possibility of 9 wins?
That’s kind of silly
Yes I scoff at it because Jones isn't a good QB.
He has talent, and some very good physical ability. He hasn’t been a good quarterback up to now. But to cavalierly state Giants can’t win with him at quarterback is silly to me
We have heard you loud and clear.
If you believe that he has pro bowl potential and that the only reason that he has failed is the ineptness of the franchise... Stop talking you're delusional.
The rest of us are interested to see how the season unfolds and completely aware that things could go in a couple of different directions.
However, you never lose the option of not reading if you so choose, and the season will still carry on as well.
Sincerely,
the rest of us
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The picks were dependent on each other. It’s a different evaluation with only one pick in the top ten. Sure KT may have been their “top” pick but that’s knowing they had another pick.
The argument for KT is that there would still be reasonable options at right tackle in round two. You don't normally spend a top ten pick on a prospect you are projecting at right tackle. It was the luxury of having two top ten picks this year along with the fact that Neal can play the left tackle position if needed. A good argument can certainly be made for Neal being the selection and another argument can be made that it would've been Ekwonu. Only Schoen and perhaps his hairdresser know the truth.
Neal is an Offensive Tackle, not just a RT. And to ascribe that the NYG cannot afford the luxury of investing in OTs is comical, if not just ridiculously outdated.
Rebuilding team, no offensive infrastructure, Thomas undergoing surgery, nothing of substance at OT on the bench.
Neal or Ekwonu was about as an easy a decision Schoen had this offseason so far.