5+ years at minimum, if not 10 years.
What a disaster of a draft decision.
4 years later...
1) Josh Allen is the Best Player in Football at the most important position in all of sports. Nobody does more with less. He's better than Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Fraudgers. Josh Allen is the most complete QB of all time, most talented football player in general of all time. He is a 100% lock future 1st ballot Hall of Famer. An all-time legend.
2) Saquon Barkley is the same caliber RB as journeyman Devontae Booker. This pathetic loser still doesn't understand the value of a 4-yard run. He was the same way at Penn State - his Penn State tape had red flags all over it. Oh, and RBs literally do not matter at all. Irrelevant position.
Disregarding the hyperbole, yes drafting SB started a domino effect that has set the franchise back. But I don't believe JA was ever seriously considered by NYG
The Bills have literally never had a good O-Line since Allen was drafted. Allen saves that O-Line and makes them look way better than they really are. No QB in the NFL in 2021 was better at avoiding sacks than Josh Allen (this is a documented fact). How he managed to take just 26 sacks all season behind that revolving door O-line is a testament to Allen's greatness.
2018 Bills OL = Bottom 5 in the NFL
2019 Bills OL = Bottom 10 in the NFL
2020 Bills OL = League average
2021 Bills OL = Below league average
The best OL player Josh Allen has ever played with is his LT Dion Dawkins...who is a middling LT at best and not even as good as Andrew Thomas. Dion Dawkins aside, the rest of Josh Allen's O-linemen have been replacement-level players like Jon Feliciano (way below average), Daryl Williams (still unsigned btw), Ike Boettger, Cody Ford (trash), Mitch Morse (league average Center).
Please try again and actually know what the heck you're talking about.
100% guarantee that Josh Allen becomes a Superstar QB with the NYG.
Most talented and most complete football player of all time.
Eventually in the NFL, elite talent shows itself. The cream always rises to the top.
Brian Daboll was a NOBODY before Josh Allen.
An absolute nobody. Not 1 person ever considered Daboll to be a good coach before Josh Allen emerged.
Josh Allen MADE Brian Daboll - not the other way around.
Stop it.
To me, the pinnacle moment of incompetence came when Jerry Reese was not fired along with Coughlin. That decision was the first domino of many that hurt this franchise. Replacing Reese with Gettleman a few years later was the other big moment.
Those were the two points in the least 10 years that have set the franchise back the most. Everything else was pretty much expected with Reese and Gettleman at the helm.
Gettleman hated Darnold as a prospect and had Allen rated above him.
Pat Shurmur (coach at the time), also loved Allen the most of all the QBs.
Pat Shurmur (coach at the time), also loved Allen the most of all the QBs.
LOL, exactly the opposite was reported. Of the QB's, Gett preferred Darnold, the coaches preferred Allen. Everyone liked Barkley..
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Offense Line and WRs and TE would stink just like Jones
The Bills have literally never had a good O-Line since Allen was drafted. Allen saves that O-Line and makes them look way better than they really are. No QB in the NFL in 2021 was better at avoiding sacks than Josh Allen (this is a documented fact). How he managed to take just 26 sacks all season behind that revolving door O-line is a testament to Allen's greatness.
2018 Bills OL = Bottom 5 in the NFL
2019 Bills OL = Bottom 10 in the NFL
2020 Bills OL = League average
2021 Bills OL = Below league average
The best OL player Josh Allen has ever played with is his LT Dion Dawkins...who is a middling LT at best and not even as good as Andrew Thomas. Dion Dawkins aside, the rest of Josh Allen's O-linemen have been replacement-level players like Jon Feliciano (way below average), Daryl Williams (still unsigned btw), Ike Boettger, Cody Ford (trash), Mitch Morse (league average Center).
Please try again and actually know what the heck you're talking about.
I know what I’m talking about. I also said Wrs and TE. Maybe they rank low but how low were the Giants lines ranked?
Stats are for losers. It’s a team game. Put Brady, Rodgers’s, and other top ranked OBs with this teams OL,Wrs, and TEs. Let’s see them win playoff games with them. Barkley was a Hugh mistake. Even Eli his last five years could win with this bunch of losers.
most would have picked Barkley of Allen back then.....
The problem was not taking Nelson or being more receptive to trading down. Allen had a lot of accuracy issues in high school and college. He also had plates and screws inserted to fix a broken collarbone in his non throwing shoulder.
DG was locked in on Barkley for months before the draft. "They took Baker. We're taking Saquon. End of discussion."
He had some accuracy issues in college
Seems like he corrected them. Most don’t
If the 2018 Giants had a GM savvy enough to have scouted and identified Allen's talent, I'm pretty confident he would have improved the other areas as well.
And that's not even to mention Allen can make the throws and buy the time that makes his surroundings better.
So, as is often the case, it’s actually Dave Gettleman who set the team back four years.
Now he’s gone and Schoen is accountable for everything single thing that happens.
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Offense Line and WRs and TE would stink just like Jones
The Bills have literally never had a good O-Line since Allen was drafted. Allen saves that O-Line and makes them look way better than they really are. No QB in the NFL in 2021 was better at avoiding sacks than Josh Allen (this is a documented fact). How he managed to take just 26 sacks all season behind that revolving door O-line is a testament to Allen's greatness.
2018 Bills OL = Bottom 5 in the NFL
2019 Bills OL = Bottom 10 in the NFL
2020 Bills OL = League average
2021 Bills OL = Below league average
The best OL player Josh Allen has ever played with is his LT Dion Dawkins...who is a middling LT at best and not even as good as Andrew Thomas. Dion Dawkins aside, the rest of Josh Allen's O-linemen have been replacement-level players like Jon Feliciano (way below average), Daryl Williams (still unsigned btw), Ike Boettger, Cody Ford (trash), Mitch Morse (league average Center).
Please try again and actually know what the heck you're talking about.
Well we are going to see who's right about that this season!!!
Next year we are likely sitting near the top of the draft needing a QB, so very much where we were in 2018 when we hired him. So hopefully this works out to a 5 year set back from DG and his terrible drafting, free agent signings and coach hires.
I was a big proponent of trading the pick. Look at the haul Indy got from the Jets for the 3rd pick, it basically rebooted their franchise.
I would have liked Allen at 2, but might have been the fan in me who is in it for the fun factor. Maybe that is the correct way to scout? The answer, is No.
Maybe dial it down just a bit there bud.
Zero chance to develop here. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't playing with a full deck.
Next year we are likely sitting near the top of the draft needing a QB, so very much where we were in 2018 when we hired him. So hopefully this works out to a 5 year set back from DG and his terrible drafting, free agent signings and coach hires.
This 2023 QB class looks way better than the shitty 2022 class even outside of the big 2 and nevermind LT 2.0, looks pretty juicy.
There was word Schumer liked him. I bet Dave did as well. I do not think the Giants were drafting a QB. The only way I thought they would is if they could convince ownership that it was a absolute clear cut generational player with no question marks.
I didn't think any of the QB's coming out had that profile.
You’d probably get exactly what we have here in the OP, a fucking dumbass with zero clue.
Next year we are likely sitting near the top of the draft needing a QB, so very much where we were in 2018 when we hired him. So hopefully this works out to a 5 year set back from DG and his terrible drafting, free agent signings and coach hires.
Hiring DG, deciding Eli was good enough to win a SB, drafting SB, reaching for Jones, not drafting Herbert. As I've said from the DG beginning, he ran the team just like an average fan would and look where it took us.
--Josh Allen would have been good, but was not the obvious pic at #2.
--Saquon is a good player who has been in a dysfunctional offense. If he were a bust, it would be different.
This
--Josh Allen would have been good, but was not the obvious pic at #2.
--Saquon is a good player who has been in a dysfunctional offense. If he were a bust, it would be different.
You can argue he is a bust. He's had one very good year thus far and a complete disappointment or injured every other year. Bad pick.
I can't prove that but you can't prove me wrong or convince me otherwise. it's a players league; that's why they get more than 1/2 the revenue.
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was hiring Dave Gettleman. That was the root of the problem. Barkley and Jones are a symptom of that mistake.
Next year we are likely sitting near the top of the draft needing a QB, so very much where we were in 2018 when we hired him. So hopefully this works out to a 5 year set back from DG and his terrible drafting, free agent signings and coach hires.
Hiring DG, deciding Eli was good enough to win a SB, drafting SB, reaching for Jones, not drafting Herbert. As I've said from the DG beginning, he ran the team just like an average fan would and look where it took us.
The average fans would run circles around this moron…
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--Many haters of the pick supported drafting Sam Darnold, which would have set the franchise back more.
--Josh Allen would have been good, but was not the obvious pic at #2.
--Saquon is a good player who has been in a dysfunctional offense. If he were a bust, it would be different.
You can argue he is a bust. He's had one very good year thus far and a complete disappointment or injured every other year. Bad pick.
His second year was good too. 1,000 yds in 13 games, plus receiving. He's been hurt since, so I put that in a different category than "bust". Injury prone could be it, which isn't good either. This season will tell a lot. I'm not saying we should have taken him at #1, I'm just saying when healthy he's a very good player not a bust. Taking a RB #2 in the draft is extremely questionable, but not Barkleys fault per se.
What set us back was not having a real GM search or bringing in a new GM that understood the modern game after Reese was let go. We had a chance to refresh and restart but punted on it.
If the 2018 Giants had a GM savvy enough to have scouted and identified Allen's talent, I'm pretty confident he would have improved the other areas as well.
And that's not even to mention Allen can make the throws and buy the time that makes his surroundings better.
So, as is often the case, it’s actually Dave Gettleman who set the team back four years.
Now he’s gone and Schoen is accountable for everything single thing that happens.
No argument on Gettleman’s tenure. But this sentiment that Josh Allen was this can’t miss prospect is silly. He wasn’t all that great his first few years in the league. He was taking bad hits (had a few concussions if I remember correctly) and his completion percentage was not stellar. He made a huge third year leap and continues to get better.
The Bills took a risk on a strong armed QB with running ability from a small school and it paid off. He could have easily turned out to be Wentz or worse.
I think the most logical argument about the 2018 draft is the position that Gettleman chose at 2 (RB) and that he should have either traded down or drafted the most sure thing prospect that year, Quinton Nelson.
The “we should have drafted Josh Allen” thing is revisionist history. All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants.
+1
I think it's been replaced by "gslkgr3", or maybe "Dave on the UWS".
Maybe he was thinking about irregardless (but even that is technically a word, though a useless one). On the other hand, anyone who uses the word "Douche" with a capital D in a football discussion ...
The other big one I find perplexing if you follow basic logic is Dave had absolute and total control. He had a lot of control but he was not making the call on Eli imv.
Always felt that the Mara and Tisch families were going to honor his last two years. Unfortunately the execution was a disaster but in fairness to Dave at least early he was handed a disaster of a roster left him.
Disregarding the hyperbole, yes drafting SB started a domino effect that has set the franchise back. But I don't believe JA was ever seriously considered by NYG
I dunno, I remember people saying "LOL if Reese were still our GM he'd draft Josh Allen."
The gutsy star move was trading for Diggs to support your young struggling franchise QB - albeit they essentially gave up Jefferson and a bunch of picks for him.
But I think we are kidding ourselves if we think that Josh Allen would have grown into the same player with NYG as he has with Buffalo. I have zero confidence that Shurmer, Judge, and Gettleman would have been able to turn Josh Allen into a top 3 player in the NFL. You might convince me otherwise on Pat Shurmer, given his history with QBs, but I think Gettleman drafting and signing FAs and trying to win while rebuilding would have ruined the young man and his raw talent.
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The Bills picked Allen because they had a good scouting department and a savvy GM. Two things the 2018 Giants did not have.
If the 2018 Giants had a GM savvy enough to have scouted and identified Allen's talent, I'm pretty confident he would have improved the other areas as well.
And that's not even to mention Allen can make the throws and buy the time that makes his surroundings better.
So, as is often the case, it’s actually Dave Gettleman who set the team back four years.
Now he’s gone and Schoen is accountable for everything single thing that happens.
No argument on Gettleman’s tenure. But this sentiment that Josh Allen was this can’t miss prospect is silly. He wasn’t all that great his first few years in the league. He was taking bad hits (had a few concussions if I remember correctly) and his completion percentage was not stellar. He made a huge third year leap and continues to get better.
The Bills took a risk on a strong armed QB with running ability from a small school and it paid off. He could have easily turned out to be Wentz or worse.
I think the most logical argument about the 2018 draft is the position that Gettleman chose at 2 (RB) and that he should have either traded down or drafted the most sure thing prospect that year, Quinton Nelson.
The “we should have drafted Josh Allen” thing is revisionist history. All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants.
"All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants"
There were 6 picks before Josh Allen was picked at 7.
1) The Browns picked twice in the Top 4.
2) The Colts picking at 6 had Andrew Luck at the time. They did not "pass" on Josh Allen.
3) The Broncos picking at 5 passed because John Elway proved to be the worst QB evaluator in NFL history (Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, Drew Lock, passing on Josh Allen)
4) The Jets picking at 3? Well, they're the Jets. Enough said.
The gutsy star move was trading for Diggs to support your young struggling franchise QB - albeit they essentially gave up Jefferson and a bunch of picks for him.
"Struggling" LOL
Josh Allen in Year 2 finished 6th in Total TDs on a 10-win playoff team...with John Brown as his #1 WR.
It's also 5 years now. So we should be in the clear based on the OP...
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In comment 15760090 christian said:
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The Bills picked Allen because they had a good scouting department and a savvy GM. Two things the 2018 Giants did not have.
If the 2018 Giants had a GM savvy enough to have scouted and identified Allen's talent, I'm pretty confident he would have improved the other areas as well.
And that's not even to mention Allen can make the throws and buy the time that makes his surroundings better.
So, as is often the case, it’s actually Dave Gettleman who set the team back four years.
Now he’s gone and Schoen is accountable for everything single thing that happens.
No argument on Gettleman’s tenure. But this sentiment that Josh Allen was this can’t miss prospect is silly. He wasn’t all that great his first few years in the league. He was taking bad hits (had a few concussions if I remember correctly) and his completion percentage was not stellar. He made a huge third year leap and continues to get better.
The Bills took a risk on a strong armed QB with running ability from a small school and it paid off. He could have easily turned out to be Wentz or worse.
I think the most logical argument about the 2018 draft is the position that Gettleman chose at 2 (RB) and that he should have either traded down or drafted the most sure thing prospect that year, Quinton Nelson.
The “we should have drafted Josh Allen” thing is revisionist history. All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants.
"All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants"
There were 6 picks before Josh Allen was picked at 7.
1) The Browns picked twice in the Top 4.
2) The Colts picking at 6 had Andrew Luck at the time. They did not "pass" on Josh Allen.
3) The Broncos picking at 5 passed because John Elway proved to be the worst QB evaluator in NFL history (Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, Drew Lock, passing on Josh Allen)
4) The Jets picking at 3? Well, they're the Jets. Enough said.
Don’t discount the fact that there were teams after 7 that could have traded up to take Allen and they didn’t. I’m not sure any team expected him to be as good as he is at this point.
I'm not sure how that's a response to my post.
My view is the Bills had a superior front office, and they were prepared to move up as far as 5th overall to draft Allen (Denver backed out because Chubb fell). They maneuvered to get their guy, because they identified a player and trusted their staff to build him up.
That's the difference between shit-for-brains scouting department and front office the Giants had, and the savvy front office the Bills had.
I am not jealous the Bills drafted Allen, I'm jealous the Bills had a shop that identified him. Hopefully the Giants have that now.
Did you know there was another poster that signed on not too long ago that thinks "Maryland Blows" because it's their handle?
How 'bout that?
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--Many haters of the pick supported drafting Sam Darnold, which would have set the franchise back more.
--Josh Allen would have been good, but was not the obvious pic at #2.
--Saquon is a good player who has been in a dysfunctional offense. If he were a bust, it would be different.
You can argue he is a bust. He's had one very good year thus far and a complete disappointment or injured every other year. Bad pick.
RG3 was a #2 overall pick. Had a great rookie season. Was garbage afterward. No one doubts he was a bust.
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Did you know there was another poster that signed on not too long ago that thinks "Maryland Blows" because it's their handle?
How 'bout that?
I have no clue what you just said!!!
The pick that SHOULD have been done instead of Barkley was Quenton Nelson at guard (or at least drop a couple of slots and take Nelson plus draft choices). There was a desperate need at offensive line at the time, and Nelson would have make a huge difference..but our GM was obsessed with Barkley. Also, BBI would have had a heart attack picking a guard at #2, though Nelson in retrospect is THAT good!
Not realizing it was time to draft a quarterback with that pick was an example of the loyalty that sometimes hampers this organization.
Drafting Daniel Jones at 6 was a reach made necessary because of the Barkley pick
But no matter how you spin it, The Giants had the opportunity to Draft Josh Allen and Herbert.
Herbert and Allen both available and they pass, look no further to reasons for the futility of the past 5 seasons.
The pick that SHOULD have been done instead of Barkley was Quenton Nelson at guard (or at least drop a couple of slots and take Nelson plus draft choices). There was a desperate need at offensive line at the time, and Nelson would have make a huge difference..but our GM was obsessed with Barkley. Also, BBI would have had a heart attack picking a guard at #2, though Nelson in retrospect is THAT good!
We'd only be worse off if the Giants stubbornly stuck with Rosen or Darnold like they currently are with Jones.
I'd bet top $ Saquon is a goner after this season so we'll turn the page on him soon enough.
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The “we should have drafted Josh Allen” thing is revisionist history. All of the other teams in front of the Bills also passed on Allen, not just the Giants.
I'm not sure how that's a response to my post.
My view is the Bills had a superior front office, and they were prepared to move up as far as 5th overall to draft Allen (Denver backed out because Chubb fell). They maneuvered to get their guy, because they identified a player and trusted their staff to build him up.
That's the difference between shit-for-brains scouting department and front office the Giants had, and the savvy front office the Bills had.
I am not jealous the Bills drafted Allen, I'm jealous the Bills had a shop that identified him. Hopefully the Giants have that now.
I meant to post at the bottom of the thread and clicked reply on your post, lol, my bad. That comment was directed toward the OP.
I meant to post at the bottom of the thread and clicked reply on your post, lol, my bad. That comment was directed toward the OP.
All good man!
But I was happy about taking Saquon
He was extremely highly ranked by draft expert's and we needed a RB badly
Sitting here now playing this game is ridiculous...besides as folks said earlier there were a few other QBs who were rated higher than Allen
I actually still think Saquon has tremendous skill and needs to be somewhere with a decent line to prove it
That is my humble opinion folks
But I was happy about taking Saquon
He was extremely highly ranked by draft expert's and we needed a RB badly
Sitting here now playing this game is ridiculous...besides as folks said earlier there were a few other QBs who were rated higher than Allen
I actually still think Saquon has tremendous skill and needs to be somewhere with a decent line to prove it
That is my humble opinion folks
The main thing Saquon showed me was how important it is to have two or three RBs because he is oft-injured and can’t pass block well.
My opinion…
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Or call me a troll...which I most certainly am not
But I was happy about taking Saquon
He was extremely highly ranked by draft expert's and we needed a RB badly
Sitting here now playing this game is ridiculous...besides as folks said earlier there were a few other QBs who were rated higher than Allen
I actually still think Saquon has tremendous skill and needs to be somewhere with a decent line to prove it
That is my humble opinion folks
The main thing Saquon showed me was how important it is to have two or three RBs because he is oft-injured and can’t pass block well.
My opinion…
Agreed
Bellichek handles RB so well...its by committee and he constantly picks up other teams rejections
Not realizing it was time to draft a quarterback with that pick was an example of the loyalty that sometimes hampers this organization.
Drafting Daniel Jones at 6 was a reach made necessary because of the Barkley pick
But no matter how you spin it, The Giants had the opportunity to Draft Josh Allen and Herbert.
Herbert and Allen both available and they pass, look no further to reasons for the futility of the past 5 seasons.
How would those QB's have looked with the Giants OL and receivers
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Was an example of the arrogance that made Gettleman a poor choice for GM.
Not realizing it was time to draft a quarterback with that pick was an example of the loyalty that sometimes hampers this organization.
Drafting Daniel Jones at 6 was a reach made necessary because of the Barkley pick
But no matter how you spin it, The Giants had the opportunity to Draft Josh Allen and Herbert.
Herbert and Allen both available and they pass, look no further to reasons for the futility of the past 5 seasons.
How would those QB's have looked with the Giants OL and receivers
I don t know. But I think the question is, how would they look in Giants Blue when the Giants put together a good team again.
There s no denying their special talents
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In comment 15760491 AG5686 said:
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Or call me a troll...which I most certainly am not
But I was happy about taking Saquon
He was extremely highly ranked by draft expert's and we needed a RB badly
Sitting here now playing this game is ridiculous...besides as folks said earlier there were a few other QBs who were rated higher than Allen
I actually still think Saquon has tremendous skill and needs to be somewhere with a decent line to prove it
That is my humble opinion folks
The main thing Saquon showed me was how important it is to have two or three RBs because he is oft-injured and can’t pass block well.
My opinion…
Agreed
Bellichek handles RB so well...its by committee and he constantly picks up other teams rejections
Little Bill learned a lot from having Meggett around. He's never had quit that dynamic a 3rd back but there is a real benefits to have specialized short yardage and 3rd down backs with maybe a more all around workhorse thrown in for good measure.
Whether that strategy was Gettleman’ pitch to ownership, or a constraint imposed upon him by ownership doesn’t matter. Once he took the job, he owned the plan.
The OP’s premise has an obvious logical flaw: the alternative to Barkley probably wasn’t Allen. In any case, if Daniel Jones isn’t the answer, selecting him in 2019 will have been the bigger setback. Judging by their performance in weeks 1 and 2 with Eli at QB. the Giants could have drifted to another dismal record and drafted Justin Herbert in 2020.
DG shouldn't get a pass on the decisions he doesn't make. Especially if other teams are finding very good QBs during a period of time that we need one.
By late 2016 every senior level employee and their mother in the Giant organization should have been laser focused on EVERY SINGLE QB PROSPECT that was becoming available in 2017, 2018, 2019 and so forth.
The franchise needed a new franchise QB. And it's up to the GM to get the evaluation right, navigate the draft accordingly and then strike when the iron is hot. Reese didn't do it. Getts missed it altogether with bads evals on Eli and the prospects, and then wound up panicking in the wrong year to panic.
And now it's Schoen's turn up at bat. He took Ball 1 in his first draft, but my guess is he will be swinging away on the next pitch...
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Was an example of the arrogance that made Gettleman a poor choice for GM.
Not realizing it was time to draft a quarterback with that pick was an example of the loyalty that sometimes hampers this organization.
Drafting Daniel Jones at 6 was a reach made necessary because of the Barkley pick
But no matter how you spin it, The Giants had the opportunity to Draft Josh Allen and Herbert.
Herbert and Allen both available and they pass, look no further to reasons for the futility of the past 5 seasons.
How would those QB's have looked with the Giants OL and receivers
I'd say better than what we have.
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this is going to make evidence objections much more difficult.
Maybe he was thinking about irregardless (but even that is technically a word, though a useless one).
He must have been thinking of 'irregardless' which is not a word, and redundant if it were a word. 'Irrelevant' is a word.
But, playing this hypothetical, I don't think you would be seeing anything near the Allen you see now. He entered the league with issues and did not have a good rookie year. But, he had an outstanding coaching staff and supporting cast, to develop quickly. I don't think either of the last 2 coaching staffs would have made a significant difference with Allen.
2019 - 4.6 ypc with again, possibly the worst offensive lines in football
2020 - HURT
2021 - HURT
Go watch this video and tell me he doesn't know how to get a 4 yard run. Countless times, he runs right up the gut. People forget how good he was when healthy. He was set to be a perennial All-Pro but now, let's shit on him for getting hurt...
Some Giants fans are just garbage
Link - ( New Window )
RG3 was a #2 overall pick. Had a great rookie season. Was garbage afterward. No one doubts he was a bust. [/quote]
I guess that's where we disagree. I don't consider RG3 a bust at all. He was very good and then he tore up his knee. You draft on talent, and Saquon is supremely talented. The difference here is, RG3 had torn his ACL in college, Saquon did not have past injury history.