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GBN Report: Will the real Saquon Barkley please stand up!!!

M.S. : 7/24/2022 7:11 am

1,000-word retrospective on Saquon Barkley from Draft Day to where he stands today with the Giants new regime. Here is a summary:

(1) All the evidence suggests the Giants were going to take a QB in 2018 but then soured on the entire class;

(2) That left the Giants with three choices -- Sam Darnold, Bradley Chubb or Saquon Barkley. GBN argues that nobody on draft day was going to pick either Quentin Nelson or Josh Allen in the 2-hole. And nobody was offering very much for the Giants to trade down;

(3) Clearly, in his rookie year, Saquon justified his #2 overall selection. The stats recited by GBN are quite impressive.

(4) GBN has argued in the past that the real threat of Saquon Barkley was that it forced teams to load the box, which made the defense quite vulnerable to the passing game, especially on 1st and 2nd downs;

(5) But two coaching regimes forced Barkley to run against 8-man fronts, which then led the Giants into 3rd and long with a young QB at the helm, not to mention a below-grade O-line and wide receiver group;

(6) The new Giants regime should at minimum have an offense that plays to Saquon Barkley's strengths.

My wild guess about our running back whose career started off with such promise: He will have a "nice" year and will be playing for another team in 2023. And the same will be true even if his nice year turns into a great year.

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I call bullshit  
sb from NYT Forum : 7/24/2022 10:38 am : link
Quote:
And nobody was offering very much for the Giants to trade down


This per Gettleman, a proven liar?

Numerous reports have come out that Cleveland offered their #4 overall plus at least one of their top two 2nd Rounders.

In the worst case scenario, the Giants could have had #4 overall from Cleveland, #34 overall (NYG 2nd Rounder) and #35 overall (also from Cleveland).
RE: RE: …  
christian : 7/24/2022 10:39 am : link
In comment 15761118 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15761108 christian said:


Quote:


Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.



You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.


That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah  
Spider43 : 7/24/2022 10:51 am : link
I'm just so happy this is his last season with us.
RE: …  
GNewGiants : 7/24/2022 10:56 am : link
In comment 15761114 christian said:
Quote:
Barkley did not create first downs at a high rate in the pass game in 2018. He was 20th in pass targets and 60th in pass first downs.


He had 30 first down receptions.

I wonder since he averaged 8 YPC, how many of his catches came on 2nd and 3rd and long. I mean 8 yards per catch for a back isn’t terrible by any means.

But 30 first downs and 4 TDs is low for 91 catches.
Regarding #4  
M.S. : 7/24/2022 10:57 am : link

One of Daniel Jones’ better games came against the Saints last season when he torched their defense several times with play action on first down.
An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
mikeinbloomfield : 7/24/2022 11:05 am : link
Year or not or two reasons. An RB’s career is generally not long enough and you can get similar stats from guys without using a premium pick. And we’ve seen both play out with Barkley. Even during Barkley’s all world rookie year did it lead to wins? Or even more points?

They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.
RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
M.S. : 7/24/2022 11:13 am : link
In comment 15761156 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
Year or not or two reasons. An RB’s career is generally not long enough and you can get similar stats from guys without using a premium pick. And we’ve seen both play out with Barkley. Even during Barkley’s all world rookie year did it lead to wins? Or even more points?

They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.

You could be right, and the “value” argument against RB at #2 has been voiced by numerous BBIers… but after his 2018 rookie season, there were very few riders on the anti-Saquon Barkley train! Indeed, if his next three seasons were anywhere near the ballpark of his first, I doubt we would have heard very much about value pick at all.
RE: RE: …  
christian : 7/24/2022 11:16 am : link
In comment 15761144 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 15761114 christian said:


Quote:


Barkley did not create first downs at a high rate in the pass game in 2018. He was 20th in pass targets and 60th in pass first downs.



He had 30 first down receptions.

I wonder since he averaged 8 YPC, how many of his catches came on 2nd and 3rd and long. I mean 8 yards per catch for a back isn’t terrible by any means.

But 30 first downs and 4 TDs is low for 91 catches.


Yeah, I’m not saying he’s a terrible option in the pass game. My point (I think we agree) is receptions on their own are more of a compilation stat and not a productivity stat. It’s closer to pass attempts or rushing attempts.

It’s more important what you do with them. And 91 catches, and more importantly 121 targets for 30 1Ds, 4 TD, and 700 yards isn’t good.

Ideally more of those targets are going downfield and gaining more yards this year.
i'm the slim shady yea i'm...  
Producer : 7/24/2022 11:27 am : link
...
Yeah we are definitely on the same page  
GNewGiants : 7/24/2022 11:28 am : link
I think he can have a major factor in the pass game. It seemed like Shurmur used him basically for screens and wheel routes.

I’d love to see him split out more and used on options routes.
 
christian : 7/24/2022 11:33 am : link
The risk with a back like Barkley is the normal course of NFL injury levels his all world burst down to very ordinary. And without that plus skill he’s not a difference maker. We’ve seen twice now what a sprained ankle does to him. Out four weeks, ineffective for another two.

He’s not a grinder, he’s not a great pass catching target, and he’s of a good 3rd down back.

When he’s right, he’s a home run hitter. But he’s been right 25% of his career. As he gets the older, do you want to bet that goes up or down?
RE: Yeah we are definitely on the same page  
christian : 7/24/2022 11:35 am : link
In comment 15761179 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
I think he can have a major factor in the pass game. It seemed like Shurmur used him basically for screens and wheel routes.

I’d love to see him split out more and used on options routes.


Me too. I hate this notion of “get the ball in space.” I want to see him catching the ball in stride and running over DBs.
RE: RE: RE: …  
Samiam : 7/24/2022 11:45 am : link
In comment 15761129 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15761118 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15761108 christian said:


Quote:


Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.



You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.



That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.

That’s true. 15 minutes is not enough time for someone who hadn’t considered trading down. However, a good GM, possibly even a bad GM, would have or should have considered the possibility of a trade down and had a sense of what offers would have so good that trading down would be the right move. Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.
RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
christian : 7/24/2022 11:53 am : link
In comment 15761194 Samiam said:
Quote:
Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.


I’ll look for the article. Schoen had a pretty funny observation about how the draft pre-work he inherited was done.

I don’t get the sense Gettleman went into 2018 and thought — “I can probably get a starting running back, guard, tackle and more if I trade down.”
Keeping Barkley  
Reale01 : 7/24/2022 12:32 pm : link
The Giants would have all the leverage even if SB is exceptional this year. They could just Franchise Tag him for 9.5 million. You could do this twice if needed and then let him go. IMO spending 9.5 million on an RB in one season is not bad if the RB is performing at an exceptional level. A high money long-term deal is the real problem.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15761200 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15761194 Samiam said:


Quote:


Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.



I’ll look for the article. Schoen had a pretty funny observation about how the draft pre-work he inherited was done.

I don’t get the sense Gettleman went into 2018 and thought — “I can probably get a starting running back, guard, tackle and more if I trade down.”


I don't get the sense Gettleman had any sense...
RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15761194 Samiam said:
Quote:
In comment 15761129 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15761118 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15761108 christian said:


Quote:


Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.



You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.



That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.


That’s true. 15 minutes is not enough time for someone who hadn’t considered trading down. However, a good GM, possibly even a bad GM, would have or should have considered the possibility of a trade down and had a sense of what offers would have so good that trading down would be the right move. Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.


Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.

Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...
RE: Keeping Barkley  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15761227 Reale01 said:
Quote:
The Giants would have all the leverage even if SB is exceptional this year. They could just Franchise Tag him for 9.5 million. You could do this twice if needed and then let him go. IMO spending 9.5 million on an RB in one season is not bad if the RB is performing at an exceptional level. A high money long-term deal is the real problem.


good lord...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
section125 : 7/24/2022 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15761236 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.

Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...


Does it really matter? He was picking SB. Remember they still thought Eli could play. He may have had a contingency had Cleveland picked Barkley, but when your mind is made up on a player you think takes you over the top, you are taking him. Does not matter what we think 2, 3. 5, 10 years later.

Was he wrong? Yes he was, the wrong player at that time at that draft.
Stand up!!!  
thrunthrublue : 7/24/2022 1:11 pm : link
But do it carefully, no reason for an early injury…….
Wrong player at the  
BigBlueinDE : 7/24/2022 1:42 pm : link
wrong time, yes. That said, this is probably his last year as a Giant and they'll move on. Alternatively, if they get a great offer, they may move him to a contender midway through the season or at the trade deadline.

He'll get another shot with a different team and it's probably 50/50 if he finishes out that deal and he'll probably be out of the league at the conclusion of or partially through the second deal.
Saquon was a great athlete who elected to play football.  
TC : 7/24/2022 1:44 pm : link
May even have the potential of BEING a great football player if he's not too badly eroded, and can stay healthy. But what he isn't, and never was, was a great all-purpose NFL RB.

If he still has enough of his skills, I can see Andy Reid jonesin' to get him on the Chiefs and turn him into a whole different thing which will terrify defenses.

Agree, he's not likely to be a Giant in '23.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15761245 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15761236 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:



Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.

Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...



Does it really matter? He was picking SB. Remember they still thought Eli could play. He may have had a contingency had Cleveland picked Barkley, but when your mind is made up on a player you think takes you over the top, you are taking him. Does not matter what we think 2, 3. 5, 10 years later.

Was he wrong? Yes he was, the wrong player at that time at that draft.


I know he was picking SB come hell or high water...no kidding. The sign of an awful evaluator and GM.

We are just responding to the stupid and disingenuous comment that he was constrained to only 15 minutes to extent a deal was being considered, and that wasn’t long enough...

RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
bw in dc : 7/24/2022 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15761156 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
Year or not or two reasons. An RB’s career is generally not long enough and you can get similar stats from guys without using a premium pick. And we’ve seen both play out with Barkley. Even during Barkley’s all world rookie year did it lead to wins? Or even more points?

They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.


Well said. Which absolutely obliterates this suggestion by the OP:

Quote:
Clearly, in his rookie year, Saquon justified his #2 overall selection. The stats recited by GBN are quite impressive.


RBs just don't impact wins like other offensive positions. In fact, a compelling case can be made the RB is last in the order of offensive importance behind QB, WR, OL, and TE.

The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.

RE: RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
M.S. : 7/24/2022 3:14 pm : link
In comment 15761325 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15761156 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


Year or not or two reasons. An RB’s career is generally not long enough and you can get similar stats from guys without using a premium pick. And we’ve seen both play out with Barkley. Even during Barkley’s all world rookie year did it lead to wins? Or even more points?

They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.



Well said. Which absolutely obliterates this suggestion by the OP:



Quote:


Clearly, in his rookie year, Saquon justified his #2 overall selection. The stats recited by GBN are quite impressive.



RBs just don't impact wins like other offensive positions. In fact, a compelling case can be made the RB is last in the order of offensive importance behind QB, WR, OL, and TE.

The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.

QB and O-line for sure, but after that there’s zero consensus or proof as to which position is next in value.
RE: RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
section125 : 7/24/2022 3:50 pm : link
In comment 15761325 bw in dc said:
Quote:

The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.


Oh, ok and you wonder why people think you are a full of crap..over 2000 yards from scrimmage and that is 70s/80s..

Any team will take that kind of production from any player from any position.
RE: RE: RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
bw in dc : 7/24/2022 4:27 pm : link
In comment 15761355 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15761325 bw in dc said:


Quote:



The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.




Oh, ok and you wonder why people think you are a full of crap..over 2000 yards from scrimmage and that is 70s/80s..

Any team will take that kind of production from any player from any position.


And for those 2K scrimmage yards we had 5 wins. Five.

Now, I'm not suggesting Barkley didn't put up impressive totals - he did - but the production just didn't translate to wins. And that's clearly because it's more important to have your QB, OL, and WRs do well and thrive over a RB.

Sure, you hope the RB does well, but it's just not a critical variable in the determining which team wins.
I'm currious to see what SB  
Dave on the UWS : 7/24/2022 4:32 pm : link
does this year. Don't underestimate the improvements made for the OL this year. Thomas and Lemieux showed good chemistry 2 years ago. Glowinski is a professional Guard (something we have NOT had here in a very long time). Neal is likely to be a beast next to him. This line "should" allow Daboll to run the kind of offense he wants to run.
I doubt Barkley is a Giant in 23, but he should have opportunities this year (as will Jones), that haven't been there for the last 2 .
RE: RE: RE: RE: An RB at 2 was never going to be justified, awesome stats the first  
GNewGiants : 7/24/2022 4:53 pm : link
In comment 15761369 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15761355 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15761325 bw in dc said:


Quote:



The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.




Oh, ok and you wonder why people think you are a full of crap..over 2000 yards from scrimmage and that is 70s/80s..

Any team will take that kind of production from any player from any position.



And for those 2K scrimmage yards we had 5 wins. Five.

Now, I'm not suggesting Barkley didn't put up impressive totals - he did - but the production just didn't translate to wins. And that's clearly because it's more important to have your QB, OL, and WRs do well and thrive over a RB.

Sure, you hope the RB does well, but it's just not a critical variable in the determining which team wins.


I am with you here. If SB had a better QB to compliment his yards - your talking about an offense that will be near 30 PPG. I certainly don’t blame SB for 2018 cause I believe he did his part.

But even look at a guy like Derrick Henry. As awesome as he is - he can’t carry a team to be a title contender.
Saquon’s injuries are obscuring DG’s colossal scouting mistake.  
cosmicj : 7/24/2022 4:57 pm : link
DG had him rated as the best player coming out since Peyton Manning. The same guy who in year 3 and 4 was being outperformed by Gallman and Booker. I don’t care what Barkley’s injuries are, that doesn’t happen to very good players. This is a historic level scouting mistake.
RE: Saquon’s injuries are obscuring DG’s colossal scouting mistake.  
ChrisRick : 7/24/2022 6:31 pm : link
In comment 15761398 cosmicj said:
Quote:
DG had him rated as the best player coming out since Peyton Manning. The same guy who in year 3 and 4 was being outperformed by Gallman and Booker. I don’t care what Barkley’s injuries are, that doesn’t happen to very good players. This is a historic level scouting mistake.


Barkley is easily out-performed by your standard every day back is how I read this. A couple of questions: Why was not out-performed in year 1 and 2, why was he out-performed in year 3? Barkley did not have a good year coming off a serious injury; he has much to prove this year.
RE: RE: Keeping Barkley  
Reale01 : 7/24/2022 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15761237 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15761227 Reale01 said:


Quote:


The Giants would have all the leverage even if SB is exceptional this year. They could just Franchise Tag him for 9.5 million. You could do this twice if needed and then let him go. IMO spending 9.5 million on an RB in one season is not bad if the RB is performing at an exceptional level. A high money long-term deal is the real problem.



good lord...


Don't understand your point if there is one. If Barkley has a great season and is critical to the offense. Why would you not keep him for 9.5 million hit for one year? Because it would only leave us with 70 million in cap space? I never thought he was worth the #2 pick. I would have traded back. That said, I don't understand the lynch mob that is Jonesing to get rid of him (See what I did there?)
RE: RE: RE: Keeping Barkley  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 8:03 pm : link
In comment 15761493 Reale01 said:
Quote:
In comment 15761237 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15761227 Reale01 said:


Quote:


The Giants would have all the leverage even if SB is exceptional this year. They could just Franchise Tag him for 9.5 million. You could do this twice if needed and then let him go. IMO spending 9.5 million on an RB in one season is not bad if the RB is performing at an exceptional level. A high money long-term deal is the real problem.



good lord...



Don't understand your point if there is one. If Barkley has a great season and is critical to the offense. Why would you not keep him for 9.5 million hit for one year? Because it would only leave us with 70 million in cap space? I never thought he was worth the #2 pick. I would have traded back. That said, I don't understand the lynch mob that is Jonesing to get rid of him (See what I did there?)


Running backs at the end of their rookie contracts or in their second contracts don’t have strong ROIs going forward. If they happen to have great seasons at this point, paying them more if basically a waste a money since it won’t likely be repeated. They will decline, get more dinged up or be less productive due to time and wear n’ tear. Very few outliers that buck this trend.

$9.5M for Barkley for one year going forward is simply a waste of money versus the production that can be expected or the replacement cost of a middle round draft pick RB.

Let me know if this isn’t intuitive...
RE: I call bullshit  
GeofromNJ : 7/24/2022 9:23 pm : link
In comment 15761128 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:


Quote:


And nobody was offering very much for the Giants to trade down



This per Gettleman, a proven liar?

Numerous reports have come out that Cleveland offered their #4 overall plus at least one of their top two 2nd Rounders.

In the worst case scenario, the Giants could have had #4 overall from Cleveland, #34 overall (NYG 2nd Rounder) and #35 overall (also from Cleveland).

The irony is that the Browns drafted Nick Chubb on the 2nd round in 2018 and Chubb, to date, is a better running back than Barkley. He reads the LOS, hits the hole, and runs for daylight.
RE: RE: Saquon’s injuries are obscuring DG’s colossal scouting mistake.  
Jimmy Googs : 7/24/2022 9:47 pm : link
In comment 15761443 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 15761398 cosmicj said:


Quote:


DG had him rated as the best player coming out since Peyton Manning. The same guy who in year 3 and 4 was being outperformed by Gallman and Booker. I don’t care what Barkley’s injuries are, that doesn’t happen to very good players. This is a historic level scouting mistake.



Barkley is easily out-performed by your standard every day back is how I read this. A couple of questions: Why was not out-performed in year 1 and 2, why was he out-performed in year 3? Barkley did not have a good year coming off a serious injury; he has much to prove this year.


Because some college players become better Pros over time and some don’t or regress.

Should we wait and see this year?

RE: RE: RE: RE: Keeping Barkley  
Reale01 : 7/25/2022 12:00 am : link
In comment 15761529 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15761493 Reale01 said:


Quote:


In comment 15761237 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15761227 Reale01 said:


Quote:


The Giants would have all the leverage even if SB is exceptional this year. They could just Franchise Tag him for 9.5 million. You could do this twice if needed and then let him go. IMO spending 9.5 million on an RB in one season is not bad if the RB is performing at an exceptional level. A high money long-term deal is the real problem.



good lord...



Don't understand your point if there is one. If Barkley has a great season and is critical to the offense. Why would you not keep him for 9.5 million hit for one year? Because it would only leave us with 70 million in cap space? I never thought he was worth the #2 pick. I would have traded back. That said, I don't understand the lynch mob that is Jonesing to get rid of him (See what I did there?)



Running backs at the end of their rookie contracts or in their second contracts don’t have strong ROIs going forward. If they happen to have great seasons at this point, paying them more if basically a waste a money since it won’t likely be repeated. They will decline, get more dinged up or be less productive due to time and wear n’ tear. Very few outliers that buck this trend.

$9.5M for Barkley for one year going forward is simply a waste of money versus the production that can be expected or the replacement cost of a middle round draft pick RB.

Let me know if this isn’t intuitive...


Its not intuitive - or out of line with what I said. First, I did not say to resign him to a long term deal.

Second, what I said was predicated on him being a critical piece of the offense.

Third, not every middle round back is Delvin Cook. Most are second or third round picks and there are a lot that don't work out. There is no potential replacement on the Giants roster. There are not usually any good FA running backs available.

Forth, a top 10 RB season is worth 9.5 million if the RB is a threat in the passing game. Also, a good move if we pick an RB next year.

Finally, I know you want to replace Jones next year. Are we going to have a rookie QB and a rookie RB? If we use round 1 on QB and round 3 on RB it limits your draft. Also, that likely means the earliest the Giants would be a contender is 2025.

Again, I agree you do not take an RB with the 2nd pick in draft. You do not sign an RB to a large second contract. The best case scenario is that either Jones, Barkley, or both play well enough to deserve to be Giants in 2023.
So it’s not intuitive for you...as you still don’t see it.  
Jimmy Googs : 7/25/2022 1:54 am : link
Barkley is a lame duck RB on the eve of his second contract and the NY Giants being nowhere close to a Super Bowl.

That means you don’t sign him to an extension nor Franchise Tag him as there is no short term or longer term value that aligns to our timeline of needs.

The best case scenario for the Giants is if some RB-desperate team comes calling at the trade deadline and only looks at film from his Penn St/Hand of God years...
RE: Saquon’s injuries are obscuring DG’s colossal scouting mistake.  
allstarjim : 7/25/2022 2:22 am : link
In comment 15761398 cosmicj said:
Quote:
DG had him rated as the best player coming out since Peyton Manning. The same guy who in year 3 and 4 was being outperformed by Gallman and Booker. I don’t care what Barkley’s injuries are, that doesn’t happen to very good players. This is a historic level scouting mistake.


Daniel Jeremiah said he was the second "perfect 9.0" prospect grade ever for him, the first was Peyton. An awful lot of people had Saquon that high. And they were right to grade him there because that was the right grade.

The only problem with Saquon was the team he went to and the fact that he suffered a devastating injury and other fairly serious injuries.

A healthy Saquon through 4 seasons...we aren't having this conversation.
Allstarjim  
cosmicj : 7/25/2022 9:33 am : link
I know we disagree about Saquon. DG was definitely not the only one who loved him as a prospect. The underperformance by Barkley isn’t just caused by injuries. He’s just not a good player. Stars are able to compensate to at least perform at NFL replacement level. Barkley fell short of even that low bar.
RE: Allstarjim  
M.S. : 7/25/2022 9:40 am : link
In comment 15761846 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I know we disagree about Saquon. DG was definitely not the only one who loved him as a prospect. The underperformance by Barkley isn’t just caused by injuries. He’s just not a good player. Stars are able to compensate to at least perform at NFL replacement level. Barkley fell short of even that low bar.

Are you saying, "He's just not a good player"??? or are you saying "He's just not a good player after a kick-ass rookie season???"
RE: Allstarjim  
ChrisRick : 7/25/2022 9:49 am : link
In comment 15761846 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I know we disagree about Saquon. DG was definitely not the only one who loved him as a prospect. The underperformance by Barkley isn’t just caused by injuries. He’s just not a good player. Stars are able to compensate to at least perform at NFL replacement level. Barkley fell short of even that low bar.


You're right, the Barkley's struggles are not caused just by injuries. If Barkley was as bad a player as you suggest he probably does not have the kind of success he had in year 1 and year 2 considering the Giants poor OL. I do however feel that it is possible, maybe even likely that Barkley benefited greatly from having Manning as the qb because of his ability to read the defense at the LOS. Even so, watching Barkley play football in year 1 and year 2 showed me a player making the most of a team that struggled to run block.

As for this year, there were really two options: Cut Barkley and give his reps to a young unproven player that may surprise. Keep Barkley and wait and see if he shows he can be the back from the first two years and gives the Giants trade options.

I love Saquon, but he is probably not in the future plans for NYG. Too many holes to fill.
Moving forward  
Colin@gbn : 7/25/2022 9:53 am : link
Thanks again for the plug M.S. And now we got a whole new season!! As I noted in my original article I have no great interest in re-litigating a 4-year old draft. It wasn't a perfect pick because there were no perfect options but at the time it was a perfectly reasonably choice that hasn't worked out the way we hoped. That's the NFL draft. Move on.

What I would suggest though is that people not get too hung up on positions per se. The Giants didn't select Barkley back in 2018 because they wanted a RB. They took him because he was an electric big-play threat to add to a pathetically anemic offense. The same applies going forward. If the goal is to get 4 yards on first down then clearly there are other cheaper options out there. However, I don't believe that the goal of the offense that Daboll-Kafka envision going forward is getting four yards on first down. They want 40! Because in this day and age that's what wins championships. And if healthy Saquon is one of the few backs in the league who are a legit threat to get those kind of yards. If he had a Deebo Samuel type year then franchising him as a RB could very well be a bargain. But my theory is we play the year and see what happens!!
About a week before this years draft  
arniefez : 7/25/2022 10:05 am : link
Jordan Raanan had Matt Miller one of ESPN's draft guys on his podcast. It was a good listen. He talked about having sources on teams including the Giants and how he tries to filter out information. He said only once in all the years he's covered the draft (I think it was about a dozen) has anyone from any team ever told him directly we're taking this guy.

It was the Giants and Barkley and he was told in February. That is such incompetence and GM malpractice that it's almost hard to believe. But why would he lie?
Barkley's problems as a pro were there in college  
.McL. : 7/25/2022 10:33 am : link
Barkley's problems are
1) Hesitates looking for the cutback
2) Poor vision, doesn't read the hole in front of him and run for daylight
3) Terrible pass blocker

All 3 of these issues were present and visible during his college days. I know I picked up on this and wrote about it before he was drafted, as did numerous others. One stat that jumps out at you was that he led all college RB is stuff%. He was double the next nearest.

The problem for a player like Barkley, is that once the DCs saw his weaknesses on tape they could adjust to take advantage. The players in the NFL are faster and better, his cutback lanes can be taken away from him. He can't just use his athletic ability to win on as many plays as he did in college.

I don't think injuries have been as impactful to him as many suggest. I think the DCs are exploiting these weaknesses to take away his strengths. Unless he completely changes his game, I don't see that dynamic runner ever emerging again.

He is what he always has been. His problems were there to be scouted in college. The error people made was giving him such a high rating on his athletic ability alone rather than looking at him as a complete football player, which he has never been.
RE: Moving forward  
M.S. : 7/25/2022 10:41 am : link
In comment 15761872 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Thanks again for the plug M.S. And now we got a whole new season!! As I noted in my original article I have no great interest in re-litigating a 4-year old draft. It wasn't a perfect pick because there were no perfect options but at the time it was a perfectly reasonably choice that hasn't worked out the way we hoped. That's the NFL draft. Move on.

What I would suggest though is that people not get too hung up on positions per se. The Giants didn't select Barkley back in 2018 because they wanted a RB. They took him because he was an electric big-play threat to add to a pathetically anemic offense. The same applies going forward. If the goal is to get 4 yards on first down then clearly there are other cheaper options out there. However, I don't believe that the goal of the offense that Daboll-Kafka envision going forward is getting four yards on first down. They want 40! Because in this day and age that's what wins championships. And if healthy Saquon is one of the few backs in the league who are a legit threat to get those kind of yards. If he had a Deebo Samuel type year then franchising him as a RB could very well be a bargain. But my theory is we play the year and see what happens!!

Your quite welcome, Colin!

Incidentally, I know you've been a big proponent of having big-strike weapons, and I am in your court on this one, but over the past several years I've had a hard time envisioning the Giants winning with such weapons so long as they trotted out there such an inept offensive line. Hopefully with Andrew Thomas, Evan Neal and a few others they've stabilized that situation!
RE: About a week before this years draft  
section125 : 7/25/2022 10:42 am : link
In comment 15761892 arniefez said:
Quote:
Jordan Raanan had Matt Miller one of ESPN's draft guys on his podcast. It was a good listen. He talked about having sources on teams including the Giants and how he tries to filter out information. He said only once in all the years he's covered the draft (I think it was about a dozen) has anyone from any team ever told him directly we're taking this guy.

It was the Giants and Barkley and he was told in February. That is such incompetence and GM malpractice that it's almost hard to believe. But why would he lie?


Why is it incompetent to pick your guy when he is the highest rated player ever from CFB? Was he the wrong guy to take, as hindsight says, yes. You are going to tell me Jax didn't know they were taking Trevor Lawrence, just to name one.
Of course, the only team that knows for certain who they are taking is the #1 pick. But you cannot tell me that the top 5 picking teams do not know who they want and can reasonably expect to pick?

It is fine to hate on DG and his lousy 4 years as GM, but to think teams do not know who they want is naive.
Injuries and the worst OL in franchise history  
VinegarPeppers : 7/26/2022 11:14 am : link
...are the reasons he has had disappointing seasons.

It's amazing how much hate there is for Saquon because of where Gettleman drafted him. It's as if he forced Gettleman to draft him there somehow.
RE: Moving forward  
cosmicj : 7/26/2022 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15761872 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Thanks again for the plug M.S. And now we got a whole new season!! As I noted in my original article I have no great interest in re-litigating a 4-year old draft. It wasn't a perfect pick because there were no perfect options but at the time it was a perfectly reasonably choice that hasn't worked out the way we hoped. That's the NFL draft. Move on.

What I would suggest though is that people not get too hung up on positions per se. The Giants didn't select Barkley back in 2018 because they wanted a RB. They took him because he was an electric big-play threat to add to a pathetically anemic offense. The same applies going forward. If the goal is to get 4 yards on first down then clearly there are other cheaper options out there. However, I don't believe that the goal of the offense that Daboll-Kafka envision going forward is getting four yards on first down. They want 40! Because in this day and age that's what wins championships. And if healthy Saquon is one of the few backs in the league who are a legit threat to get those kind of yards. If he had a Deebo Samuel type year then franchising him as a RB could very well be a bargain. But my theory is we play the year and see what happens!!


Let me be blunt, Colin. This betrays a complete misunderstanding of the role rushing plays in winning NFL games.
RE: RE: Allstarjim  
cosmicj : 7/26/2022 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15761858 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15761846 cosmicj said:


Quote:


I know we disagree about Saquon. DG was definitely not the only one who loved him as a prospect. The underperformance by Barkley isn’t just caused by injuries. He’s just not a good player. Stars are able to compensate to at least perform at NFL replacement level. Barkley fell short of even that low bar.


Are you saying, "He's just not a good player"??? or are you saying "He's just not a good player after a kick-ass rookie season???"


MS - the guy had elite athletic skills which covered up his poor football skills. Things like reading blocks and understanding his role in the offense. As the injuries pile up, the tide comes down and we have a guy with good but not outstanding athletic skills… who is just a lousy football player.
RE: RE: RE: Allstarjim  
.McL. : 7/26/2022 2:45 pm : link
In comment 15762865 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 15761858 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15761846 cosmicj said:


Quote:


I know we disagree about Saquon. DG was definitely not the only one who loved him as a prospect. The underperformance by Barkley isn’t just caused by injuries. He’s just not a good player. Stars are able to compensate to at least perform at NFL replacement level. Barkley fell short of even that low bar.


Are you saying, "He's just not a good player"??? or are you saying "He's just not a good player after a kick-ass rookie season???"



MS - the guy had elite athletic skills which covered up his poor football skills. Things like reading blocks and understanding his role in the offense. As the injuries pile up, the tide comes down and we have a guy with good but not outstanding athletic skills… who is just a lousy football player.

Agreed cosmic, and as I said above, the fact that his elite AA was covering for his lack of football skills was something that people detected at the time and should have been picked up by a good scout and GM.
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