1,000-word retrospective on Saquon Barkley from Draft Day to where he stands today with the Giants new regime. Here is a summary:
(1) All the evidence suggests the Giants were going to take a QB in 2018 but then soured on the entire class;
(2) That left the Giants with three choices -- Sam Darnold, Bradley Chubb or Saquon Barkley. GBN argues that nobody on draft day was going to pick either Quentin Nelson or Josh Allen in the 2-hole. And nobody was offering very much for the Giants to trade down;
(3) Clearly, in his rookie year, Saquon justified his #2 overall selection. The stats recited by GBN are quite impressive.
(4) GBN has argued in the past that the real threat of Saquon Barkley was that it forced teams to load the box, which made the defense quite vulnerable to the passing game, especially on 1st and 2nd downs;
(5) But two coaching regimes forced Barkley to run against 8-man fronts, which then led the Giants into 3rd and long with a young QB at the helm, not to mention a below-grade O-line and wide receiver group;
(6) The new Giants regime should at minimum have an offense that plays to Saquon Barkley's strengths.
My wild guess about our running back whose career started off with such promise: He will have a "nice" year and will be playing for another team in 2023. And the same will be true even if his nice year turns into a great year.
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Of course if Barkley is having a good season, then it is possible the Giants are not far out of a playoff spot. Realistically, the Giants are not close to the playoffs this year.
Of course if Barkley is having a good season, then it is possible the Giants are not far out of a playoff spot. Realistically, the Giants are not close to the playoffs this year.
I agree. A trade for a decent pick would be nice. As for this season, I can't see beyond 6 wins, even with a supposedly easy schedule.
It would be nice if he could turn into a valuable player, but at this point it's just blind hope. I'll believe he's actually going to be a good running back when he actually is one outside of his rookie season
It would be nice if he could turn into a valuable player, but at this point it's just blind hope. I'll believe he's actually going to be a good running back when he actually is one outside of his rookie season
Could be right. But the issue is more in his head - well that and being met in the backfield a microsecond after the handoff.
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refuse to believe that he's just not any good at this point. How many running backs suck for 3 years (and are often injured) all of a sudden bounce back from it?
It would be nice if he could turn into a valuable player, but at this point it's just blind hope. I'll believe he's actually going to be a good running back when he actually is one outside of his rookie season
Could be right. But the issue is more in his head - well that and being met in the backfield a microsecond after the handoff.
He definitely has an issue upstairs at thsi point with his game, but he also physically has a problem too. He doesn't have near the explosion that he used to. The line has sucked but the backup running backs have outperformed him recently, thats concerning
Look at his 16, 20+ yard runs and his 7, 40+ yard runs. Those are unheard of numbers. You can go back 20 years and not find those kind of numbers. Those are the plays that set him apart. Those are the plays that kept defensive coordinators up at night. Haven’t seen that since. Hope to see something like that again
It would be nice if he could turn into a valuable player, but at this point it's just blind hope. I'll believe he's actually going to be a good running back when he actually is one outside of his rookie season
He might be more valuable to us this year as a pass catcher than a runner. I know people would be disappointed but I always believed Barkley has a strength as a pass catcher that was under utilized
People love to say you shouldnt ask him to pass pro. This is the NFL. If hes playing RB its impossible to scheme him out of the protection schemes. Its a huge part of the job requirements. Guys like Wink will force your hand. This guy probably wouldnt play for Parcells or Coughlin until he figured it out.
Meanwhile the facts will show that in the 2018 Draft:
* 5 QBs were taken in Rd 1
* 4 QBs were taken in the first 10 picks
* A QB was the overall #1 pick
* 4 teams traded up in order to grab a QB in Rd 1
Yep, the whole leagued was soured alright...
He definitely has an issue upstairs at thsi point with his game, but he also physically has a problem too. He doesn't have near the explosion that he used to. The line has sucked but the backup running backs have outperformed him recently, thats concerning
I am not sure that is true. Backups run differently - hell everyone runs differently. Barkley has never just hit a hole and taken what he got. He(to his detriment) has always looked to find a big gap - hence the dancing. Lack of explosion, if there really is one, may have to do with nasty ankle injuries and confidence in the knee health. And again, how do you explode when a DT is in your face half a step after handoff.
Moot point really. Last year was last year. Let's see what happens in this new scheme.
Look at his 16, 20+ yard runs and his 7, 40+ yard runs. Those are unheard of numbers. You can go back 20 years and not find those kind of numbers. Those are the plays that set him apart. Those are the plays that kept defensive coordinators up at night. Haven’t seen that since. Hope to see something like that again
Totally agree, I think the question now is does he still have that athletic ability? And if he does, is he mentally prepared to use it or is he afraid of getting hurt again.
When Barkley was super productive in 2018 it led to people overlooking his bad pass protection in many cases. Kind of like a lot of the modern NBA players that will drop 40 points but can’t/won’t defend.
Now that he’s been struggling weaknesses like pass pro stand out a lot more.
Does GBN have an reasonable intell on the trade offers the Giants received and rejected or ignored? There were offers as we know since Mr. Arrogant said so, including saying at least one was a very reasonable.
How about intell on how much effort DG went into to try and improve those offers thru a proper negotiation versus just valuing them akin to a pretzel or bag of donuts? Do you think other GMs like hearing in his public statements that their offers were a joke coming from our former GM? A GM that never once fielded a tem with a winning record at any point in his four years and left the frnachise in a mess.
It's bad enough Gettleman screwed up that valuable pick. GBN providing him air-cover at this point is just comical...
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"And given that nobody else seemed inclined to give up much to move to that (#2 overall) spot...".
Does GBN have an reasonable intell on the trade offers the Giants received and rejected or ignored? There were offers as we know since Mr. Arrogant said so, including saying at least one was a very reasonable.
How about intell on how much effort DG went into to try and improve those offers thru a proper negotiation versus just valuing them akin to a pretzel or bag of donuts? Do you think other GMs like hearing in his public statements that their offers were a joke coming from our former GM? A GM that never once fielded a tem with a winning record at any point in his four years and left the frnachise in a mess.
It's bad enough Gettleman screwed up that valuable pick. GBN providing him air-cover at this point is just comical...
Yeah, this is likely a reassessment of history. Gettleman wanted Barkley and said so. But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations. These early round trades are mostly completed before the draft or are very close to being completed. Not to many spur of the moment trades in the top 5 picks.
The reality is DG was picking Barkley no matter what.
Hell, Draft Day alone is plenty of time so drop the 15 minutes time constraint talk...
1) I’d like to see the breakdown of 8 & 9 fronts Barkley has faced, and how that compares to the league average. Nine men fronts are exceedingly rare in the NFL outside of short yardage scenarios.
2) Sure no one was picking Nelson at 2. But the Colts traded the number three pick to the Jets and added Nelson and Braden Smith (in addition to other players players after additional trades).
But, but, but the Jets don’t trade to the Giants! Well did the Giants approach them in 2018? Because just a year later they traded one of their better players to the Giants.
3) Those 91 catches in 2018 came on 121 targets and only netted 4 TDs. That’s not efficient and was in part a product of QB who couldn’t get the ball down the field, and a pretty pedestrian offense. That’s a lot of singles with few RBIs.
1) I’d like to see the breakdown of 8 & 9 fronts Barkley has faced, and how that compares to the league average. Nine men fronts are exceedingly rare in the NFL outside of short yardage scenarios.
2) Sure no one was picking Nelson at 2. But the Colts traded the number three pick to the Jets and added Nelson and Braden Smith (in addition to other players players after additional trades).
But, but, but the Jets don’t trade to the Giants! Well did the Giants approach them in 2018? Because just a year later they traded one of their better players to the Giants.
3) Those 91 catches in 2018 came on 121 targets and only netted 4 TDs. That’s not efficient and was in part a product of QB who couldn’t get the ball down the field, and a pretty pedestrian offense. That’s a lot of singles with few RBIs.
If those 91 recpts keep the chains moving, then they are effective, even if not efficient...how many times do we see the Giants opponents slip the ball out to the RB for a 1st down on 3rd an 5s....? It also changes the defense as some one needs to account for SB out in the flat whether it is a safety or a LB - helps to open the middle.
You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.
This per Gettleman, a proven liar?
Numerous reports have come out that Cleveland offered their #4 overall plus at least one of their top two 2nd Rounders.
In the worst case scenario, the Giants could have had #4 overall from Cleveland, #34 overall (NYG 2nd Rounder) and #35 overall (also from Cleveland).
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Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.
You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.
That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.
He had 30 first down receptions.
I wonder since he averaged 8 YPC, how many of his catches came on 2nd and 3rd and long. I mean 8 yards per catch for a back isn’t terrible by any means.
But 30 first downs and 4 TDs is low for 91 catches.
One of Daniel Jones’ better games came against the Saints last season when he torched their defense several times with play action on first down.
They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.
They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.
You could be right, and the “value” argument against RB at #2 has been voiced by numerous BBIers… but after his 2018 rookie season, there were very few riders on the anti-Saquon Barkley train! Indeed, if his next three seasons were anywhere near the ballpark of his first, I doubt we would have heard very much about value pick at all.
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Barkley did not create first downs at a high rate in the pass game in 2018. He was 20th in pass targets and 60th in pass first downs.
He had 30 first down receptions.
I wonder since he averaged 8 YPC, how many of his catches came on 2nd and 3rd and long. I mean 8 yards per catch for a back isn’t terrible by any means.
But 30 first downs and 4 TDs is low for 91 catches.
Yeah, I’m not saying he’s a terrible option in the pass game. My point (I think we agree) is receptions on their own are more of a compilation stat and not a productivity stat. It’s closer to pass attempts or rushing attempts.
It’s more important what you do with them. And 91 catches, and more importantly 121 targets for 30 1Ds, 4 TD, and 700 yards isn’t good.
Ideally more of those targets are going downfield and gaining more yards this year.
I’d love to see him split out more and used on options routes.
He’s not a grinder, he’s not a great pass catching target, and he’s of a good 3rd down back.
When he’s right, he’s a home run hitter. But he’s been right 25% of his career. As he gets the older, do you want to bet that goes up or down?
I’d love to see him split out more and used on options routes.
Me too. I hate this notion of “get the ball in space.” I want to see him catching the ball in stride and running over DBs.
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In comment 15761108 christian said:
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Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.
You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.
That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.
That’s true. 15 minutes is not enough time for someone who hadn’t considered trading down. However, a good GM, possibly even a bad GM, would have or should have considered the possibility of a trade down and had a sense of what offers would have so good that trading down would be the right move. Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.
I’ll look for the article. Schoen had a pretty funny observation about how the draft pre-work he inherited was done.
I don’t get the sense Gettleman went into 2018 and thought — “I can probably get a starting running back, guard, tackle and more if I trade down.”
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Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.
I’ll look for the article. Schoen had a pretty funny observation about how the draft pre-work he inherited was done.
I don’t get the sense Gettleman went into 2018 and thought — “I can probably get a starting running back, guard, tackle and more if I trade down.”
I don't get the sense Gettleman had any sense...
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In comment 15761118 section125 said:
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In comment 15761108 christian said:
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Gettleman had plenty of time to orchestrate a trade. That’s a weak, untrue argument.
You are missing the point - he was not trading the pick. We all suspected that SB was the player DG wanted - right or wrong. He said he got offers, but it wasn't enough to make him do it. Whether a bag of donuts or a 5 carat diamond, he didn't think what was offered was enough and probably there was nothing that was going to change his mind. In order to make a trade, you need to want to make a trade.
That’s a very different point than But I will argue that in 15 minutes, there is little time for proper negotiations.
That’s true. 15 minutes is not enough time for someone who hadn’t considered trading down. However, a good GM, possibly even a bad GM, would have or should have considered the possibility of a trade down and had a sense of what offers would have so good that trading down would be the right move. Gettleman, who in my opinion was worse than a bad GM, was so married to the Barkley pick that he never even considered alternatives.
Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.
Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...
good lord...
Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.
Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...
Does it really matter? He was picking SB. Remember they still thought Eli could play. He may have had a contingency had Cleveland picked Barkley, but when your mind is made up on a player you think takes you over the top, you are taking him. Does not matter what we think 2, 3. 5, 10 years later.
Was he wrong? Yes he was, the wrong player at that time at that draft.
He'll get another shot with a different team and it's probably 50/50 if he finishes out that deal and he'll probably be out of the league at the conclusion of or partially through the second deal.
If he still has enough of his skills, I can see Andy Reid jonesin' to get him on the Chiefs and turn him into a whole different thing which will terrify defenses.
Agree, he's not likely to be a Giant in '23.
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Somehow the Giants had preplanned for a contingency to trade down in 2021 in the event their top WR choices were taken. It wasn't like they only had minutes to construct a deal with Chicago from scratch.
Classic that this moron had to go thru the mistake of 2018 to figure that concept out...
Does it really matter? He was picking SB. Remember they still thought Eli could play. He may have had a contingency had Cleveland picked Barkley, but when your mind is made up on a player you think takes you over the top, you are taking him. Does not matter what we think 2, 3. 5, 10 years later.
Was he wrong? Yes he was, the wrong player at that time at that draft.
I know he was picking SB come hell or high water...no kidding. The sign of an awful evaluator and GM.
We are just responding to the stupid and disingenuous comment that he was constrained to only 15 minutes to extent a deal was being considered, and that wasn’t long enough...
They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.
Well said. Which absolutely obliterates this suggestion by the OP:
RBs just don't impact wins like other offensive positions. In fact, a compelling case can be made the RB is last in the order of offensive importance behind QB, WR, OL, and TE.
The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.
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Year or not or two reasons. An RB’s career is generally not long enough and you can get similar stats from guys without using a premium pick. And we’ve seen both play out with Barkley. Even during Barkley’s all world rookie year did it lead to wins? Or even more points?
They wave their hands at what was available for trade but at this point the second pick in the draft was a wasted pick anyway.
Well said. Which absolutely obliterates this suggestion by the OP:
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Clearly, in his rookie year, Saquon justified his #2 overall selection. The stats recited by GBN are quite impressive.
RBs just don't impact wins like other offensive positions. In fact, a compelling case can be made the RB is last in the order of offensive importance behind QB, WR, OL, and TE.
The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.
QB and O-line for sure, but after that there’s zero consensus or proof as to which position is next in value.
The only thing Barkley did his rookie year is impress those fans who continue to be clueless about position value and think football can still be played like it's the '70s and '80s.
Oh, ok and you wonder why people think you are a full of crap..over 2000 yards from scrimmage and that is 70s/80s..
Any team will take that kind of production from any player from any position.