Incredibly insightful info from the GOAT film analyst Greg Cosell on Inside the Birds about the #Giants re: Daniel Jones, Joe Judge and Brian Daboll
Doing a quick thread w/ key takeaways
From what Greg heard, JJ wouldn't allow a a single mistake to happen. He would freak out for any kind of error. This is a horrific way to coach, obv, but it can also have a debilitating impact on a QB no matter who the QB is. "It was almost as if you weren't allowed to make a mistake." Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me. That's two years of his career listening to/playing under that kind of nasty environment (I still have no clue why JJ was celebrated for winning a few games down the stretch of 2020 against backup/out of league QBs).
Dabes will be the total opposite style coach. He'll let the QB make mistakes while getting a feel for what he CAN do well. This, more than anything to me, could have the biggest impact on DJ realizing his potential despite it being Year 4. Judge's no-mistake environment is gone.
Now as for DJ, Cosell liked his game film more than the consensus. Per Cosell, "At his core DJ is a pocket passer playing in rhythm and DJ showed the ability to be decisive with his throws on 3rd downs." Third downs = money downs and Cosell likes what DJ has shown on film there
Cosell is very excited about the #Giants offense schematically. Talked about the mix of quick game + vertical concepts. Talked about Kafka bringing over what he learned from the best route designer (IMO) ever in Andy Reid. Talked about the #Giants leaning on three-level route concepts with a vertical element like flood. Personally, I LOVE to hear this. Flood concepts put a lot of stress on the defense -- specifically the second and third levels. I'm very excited to see the mix of Daboll/Kafka on tape.
Cosell is also excited about the #Giants going away from using so many TEs/RBs to chip/help in pass pro leaving them w/ so many 3-man routes vs. 7-man coverages. I CONCUR! We saw this far too often on film and Dabes/Kafka's history suggests We won't be seeing much of it in the new offense. Very good news schematically speaking.
Cosell also LOVED #Giants 3rd-rd pick Josh Ezeudo's tape. He also spoke w/ a UNC coach who raved about this diamond in the rough. Cosell thinks he'll be starting for them at some point.
Source:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1552063969891942400
I'm really looking forward to seeing this kid excel.
It was a good thing to hear. Mack Brown (not discussed in Cosell's segment) thought he would make a outstanding center in the NFL.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this kid excel.
Agree. That is very encouraging.
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with the Daniel Jones discussions are the extreme points of view. The truth likely lies in the middle.
Jones will either perform or not in 2022.
But there are viable arguments to say why he may never be the QB hoped as well as viable arguments that explain extenuating circumstances.
Stop being so rational Eric. No place for that here. 😀
I don't see a lot of extreme on the pro DJ side, e.g, I don’t see anyone saying he's definitely going to be a perennial pro bowler, if all this other crap is corrected.
I simply see people recognizing that he's had a shitload of stuff going against him that was out of his control and that just maybe if most of that crap is resolved to a decent degree, he might prove to be good enough (to eventually win the big one, if he has a good enough team (like any QB).
Most of those on the pro DJ side won't be wrong if he ultimately fails bc they never said that wasn't possible. He has this year to prove himself one way or other.
I do see extreme on the other side. The ones who seem to refuse to acknowledge all the crap or call them excuses and say definitively that DJ sucks, no matter what. They're the ones who have stuck their flag on a hill and who could be ultimately proven wrong, if Daboll, Kafka, DJ and team are successful.
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In comment 15763433 joeinpa said:
I did not see that thread. And I don’t see the link posted below. Would like to read it
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In comment 15763360 Jim in Tampa said:
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"JJ wouldn't allow a a single mistake to happen. He would freak out for any kind of error...it can also have a debilitating impact on a QB no matter who the QB is."
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well with a bad OL.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well with all the injuries to his WRs.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well when the Giants keep changing offensive coordinators.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Or maybe, just maybe, Jones isn't very good and these are NOT viable excuses.
Or maybe you re wrong and a talent has been derailed by some really bad circumstances.
Sometimes excuses are valid. Certainly your litany above would be valid reasons for a quarterback to not perform well
You may have missed the thread earlier today about what other NFL coaches think about Jones. They ranked Jones the 30th QB out of 35... and they're not buying all the excuses either, as evidenced by some of their quotes:
“...holds the ball too long... leads to turnovers."
“I don’t think he sees the game great... I just don't see it with that kid."
“Daniel Jones plays the game...heavy minded...”
“This will be the last season he is a starter and the last season we are talking about him."
(That thread is linked below.)
And the excuse made in the OP of this thread that Jones couldn't possibly play well because JJ would get mad when Jones made a mistake is laughable... especially when the writer of the article felt it necessary to use over the top adjectives like "freak out", "horrific" and "debilitating".
Most other starting QBs in the NFL would use their head coach's criticism as fuel to get better. The bottom tier QBs wilt under the pressure while some of their fans use it as an excuse for poor play. 30th Ranked - ( New Window )
The first paragraph in the blurb on Jones summed it up nicely
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Jones debuted in Tier 3 last year, then fell eight spots into Tier 4 this offseason even though voters realize Jones hasn’t had much help.
Jones had a good start to his career, not perfect but a place to launch from and he showed he could play in the league.
Then Judge comes with don't make mistakes.
Jones also has a bottom 3 OL, maybe the worst once all injuries hit.
His skill guys are never around, and never together. Best player is Engram. Let that sink in.
You then see Jones curtail TO's and his overall play is poor. I still rememeber that Philly game
You also see Glennon, a once starter in the league produce UDFA type results with the squad Jones was given.
I'll put 50% on Jones. The kid could have played better, made better reads, been smarter on the field. I think the kid worked hard though and tried to lead.
I'll put 50% on everything else, Judge, DG, injuries, the talent around him.
So the truth does lie in the middle somewhere. Personally I think Jones is now too screwed up in the head to really let loose and I wanted to move on this offseason. But he's here with a new coach and I hope the kid makes it.
If you say so. Where do they people come from and why are they here?
A player who is more worried about making a mistake than making a play is much less aggressive & effective.
As for Jones - I just want to enjoy watching the game, I have no idea what to expect from him. But I have never been as bored watching the Giants as I was last year.
I just hope he doesn't play well for 2-3-4 games and then get hurt, missing significant time in the process. That would be annoying awful. Above all else Jones needs to stay healthy in 2022.
I just hope he doesn't play well for 2-3-4 games and then get hurt, missing significant time in the process. That would be annoying awful. Above all else Jones needs to stay healthy in 2022.
Generally agree. Getting injured yet again though won’t be helpful but probably shouldn’t be used as an excuse anymore.
Although many will likely do so.
I'm really looking forward to the reincarnation of Joe Montana finally getting to show his Canton credentials when he can play in a football utopia setting.
It suggests that no matter who the QB was JJ's "horrific" reactions would have had such a "debilitating impact" that NO QB could have performed well.
It's a good thing that Parcells never yelled at Simms or Simms would have folded under the pressure.
Oh wait! Parcells did and Simms didn't.
The 2022 circumstances have a lot of risk: new lineman at 4 positions, stable of weapons with injury histories, first year head coach, first year coordinator.
2022 feels more like an ultimatum than a fair evaluation period, no?
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
I don't think you can even compare Jones to Eli. I don't think you can compare any QB to Eli. Has there ever been a QB who has played as long as Eli and compiled his kind of regular season numbers as a very good but never great (except 2011 - Eli was great in 2011) QB and then flipped a switch twice to play at the highest level in the biggest games and win 2 Super Bowl MVP's? Who could you comp Eli to? He's an outlier.
Jones needs to be compared to his peers. So far he ranks in the bottom 3rd of the league. We will see how 2022 plays out but Andy Reid dumped Alex Smith and the Bills dumped Tyrod Taylor because they knew a mid league or lower QB gives you very little chance to win a championship. I don't expect jones to be the Giants QB in 2023.
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
I have raised this point in a different fashion. The convention wisdom seems to be a QB doesn't really learn a new system - with a completely new staff, especially - until the second year.
So, by that theory, Jones should be given 2023 as well. In addition, Jones has also had to deal with the burden of his owner - apparently - doing everything to "screw him up..."
I don't subscribe to that theory, but it's going to be a colossal waste of time moving on from Jones in 2023 if we could have tried another potential solution in 2022. I just don't understand why Schoen and Daboll want to risk wasting their first year hoping that another regime's idea is going to work.
I do like a lot of what Schoen has done to clean-up Chernobyl Dave's mess. But I would have been immensely impressed if he decided he didn't want to deal with this Jones mess, too, and used this year to audition other options...
Something people who watch ESPN regularly might not have noticed.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
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Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
I have raised this point in a different fashion. The convention wisdom seems to be a QB doesn't really learn a new system - with a completely new staff, especially - until the second year.
So, by that theory, Jones should be given 2023 as well. In addition, Jones has also had to deal with the burden of his owner - apparently - doing everything to "screw him up..."
I don't subscribe to that theory, but it's going to be a colossal waste of time moving on from Jones in 2023 if we could have tried another potential solution in 2022. I just don't understand why Schoen and Daboll want to risk wasting their first year hoping that another regime's idea is going to work.
I do like a lot of what Schoen has done to clean-up Chernobyl Dave's mess. But I would have been immensely impressed if he decided he didn't want to deal with this Jones mess, too, and used this year to audition other options...
I think you consider all of the factors while evaluating Jones' play in 2022. If Jones is in a good offensive system and gets sufficient help even not totally being comfortable in the new system and does not perform that in my eyes goes against Jones. If the offensive system is on-par with the Judge/Garrett offense that would hold a certain amount of value when evaluating Jones. All things considered when evaluating the qb:
Is the offensive system good enough?
How much help is the qb getting from teammates?
How long has the qb had to get adjusted to the NFL?
For me, Jones has had more than enough time to adjust to the NFL, so even if the new offensive system is average, and Jones receives the bare minimum of help from his surrounding teammates then he should show enough by himself to give the coaches all they need to decide what to do next year.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect Daboll and Kafka to have some growing pains working together and also in their respective gig for the first time. So I think Jones will be building up alongside that.
I think the only thing you know for sure is if Jones stays healthy and completely shits the bed. Then you can wrap this up.
But I don’t think he’s that bad. I think he’s a somewhere on the spectrum between low end starter and high end backup. And I’m frankly just surprised the staff didn’t opt for the 2 year plan.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect Daboll and Kafka to have some growing pains working together and also in their respective gig for the first time. So I think Jones will be building up alongside that.
I think the only thing you know for sure is if Jones stays healthy and completely shits the bed. Then you can wrap this up.
But I don’t think he’s that bad. I think he’s a somewhere on the spectrum between low end starter and high end backup. And I’m frankly just surprised the staff didn’t opt for the 2 year plan.
I think we can know somewhat quickly (half way mark) what kind of a system we have in place. There are a lot of film junkies out there who can poke holes in flimsy systems (we have seen that with garrett and mcadoo)
To me, Jones just needs a good enough system more than anything to show the coaches what they are looking for going forward.
I’m being rhetorical in a sense, because I agree Jones needs to show more (not greatness) in any system. I think good quarterbacks look average in bad systems, and average quarterbacks look bad.
My guess is we’re having a similar debate next year and ultimately the Giants franchise Jones.
The 2022 circumstances have a lot of risk: new lineman at 4 positions, stable of weapons with injury histories, first year head coach, first year coordinator.
2022 feels more like an ultimatum than a fair evaluation period, no?
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
Not picking up the option isn't really a referendum on him not deserving another year. He can deserve another year, just not at the mandatory cost attached.
I'm on your side, I suspect, but when Parcells made Simms the starter again in 1984 he told him not to worry about throwing picks. Told him that if he wasn't throwing some, then he was playing too conservative. Parcells wanted him to take some chances.
I still think Jones stinks, and I am still sick of people comparing him to Phil Simms but, for all the grief Parcells gave him, he didn't get on him for throwing too many interceptions.
I’m being rhetorical in a sense, because I agree Jones needs to show more (not greatness) in any system. I think good quarterbacks look average in bad systems, and average quarterbacks look bad.
My guess is we’re having a similar debate next year and ultimately the Giants franchise Jones.
Christian, lol, I hope that is not the case. In my view, if I am making a decision for the Giants and Jones is in another crap system then I think maybe it is time to pull the plug regardless. After all, with that much trauma, maybe success for Jones would not come for the Giants anyway. At some point, it is just time for both parties to move on. I think this is Jones' year to stay or go.
I have been on the side that has felt that Jones has had very tough circumstances to overcome as a young qb, but with each year he loses a little of that "young qb" excuse. He's been in the league long enough to show what he can rise above from, at least in my view.
Great quarterbacks play well no matter who the coach is. There have been plenty of examples of coordinators who stunk after they moved away from a great QB or great QBs continuing to play well within their normal range when the coordinator changes. Yes, JJ/Garrett are far from ideal, but this feels like more rationalization. It's telling us that our eyes are deceiving us and there must be some other reason why Jones has not played well.
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is that great QBs don't make a lot of mistakes. Some folks see Jones make a couple of great plays and think he has what it takes. But all QBs can make great plays, including Trubisky, and Tyrod, and Mariota, and Zach, and Trevor, and Fields, etc. The difference is the great ones are consistent. And one of Jones' fatal flaws is he makes too many errors. He still does. Being repetitively consistent is a skill. Brady is amazing because every snap looks the same. Every dropback is similar. His mechanics are phenomenal. He's a machine. Judge knows this. He was hoping that by fretting over mistakes, they would go away. No matter you whine over the errors though, Jones ain't becoming Brady.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
Producer is never wrong, his Jones hate knows no end. Now young players don't make mistakes, LOL. Bring back Glennon, he was the real deal.
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I find it bizarre more of those who subscribe to the bad circumstances theory, weren't in favor of picking up his option.
The 2022 circumstances have a lot of risk: new lineman at 4 positions, stable of weapons with injury histories, first year head coach, first year coordinator.
2022 feels more like an ultimatum than a fair evaluation period, no?
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
Not picking up the option isn't really a referendum on him not deserving another year. He can deserve another year, just not at the mandatory cost attached.
In principle I agree. Maybe there is a path where Jones gets less money than the option on a “prove it” deal.
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is that great QBs don't make a lot of mistakes. Some folks see Jones make a couple of great plays and think he has what it takes. But all QBs can make great plays, including Trubisky, and Tyrod, and Mariota, and Zach, and Trevor, and Fields, etc. The difference is the great ones are consistent. And one of Jones' fatal flaws is he makes too many errors. He still does. Being repetitively consistent is a skill. Brady is amazing because every snap looks the same. Every dropback is similar. His mechanics are phenomenal. He's a machine. Judge knows this. He was hoping that by fretting over mistakes, they would go away. No matter you whine over the errors though, Jones ain't becoming Brady.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
That's not entirely true. There were plenty of posters who said he'd be a great QB (top 10) if he fixed the fumbles
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he had a good OL
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he was in a better system
Now it's shifted to he might be a good (top 15) QB if everything breaks just right
Great quarterbacks play well no matter who the coach is. There have been plenty of examples of coordinators who stunk after they moved away from a great QB or great QBs continuing to play well within their normal range when the coordinator changes. Yes, JJ/Garrett are far from ideal, but this feels like more rationalization. It's telling us that our eyes are deceiving us and there must be some other reason why Jones has not played well.
Garrett candidly stated the Oline sucks ass big time.
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In comment 15763877 christian said:
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I find it bizarre more of those who subscribe to the bad circumstances theory, weren't in favor of picking up his option.
The 2022 circumstances have a lot of risk: new lineman at 4 positions, stable of weapons with injury histories, first year head coach, first year coordinator.
2022 feels more like an ultimatum than a fair evaluation period, no?
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
Not picking up the option isn't really a referendum on him not deserving another year. He can deserve another year, just not at the mandatory cost attached.
In principle I agree. Maybe there is a path where Jones gets less money than the option on a “prove it” deal.
Very unlikely.
Not picking up that 5th-year option told us basically everything we needed to know, and was a "body-blow" to Daniel Jones' chances of sticking with the Giants.
In any starting role anyway.
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In comment 15763388 Producer said:
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is that great QBs don't make a lot of mistakes. Some folks see Jones make a couple of great plays and think he has what it takes. But all QBs can make great plays, including Trubisky, and Tyrod, and Mariota, and Zach, and Trevor, and Fields, etc. The difference is the great ones are consistent. And one of Jones' fatal flaws is he makes too many errors. He still does. Being repetitively consistent is a skill. Brady is amazing because every snap looks the same. Every dropback is similar. His mechanics are phenomenal. He's a machine. Judge knows this. He was hoping that by fretting over mistakes, they would go away. No matter you whine over the errors though, Jones ain't becoming Brady.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
That's not entirely true. There were plenty of posters who said he'd be a great QB (top 10) if he fixed the fumbles
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he had a good OL
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he was in a better system
Now it's shifted to he might be a good (top 15) QB if everything breaks just right
You might want to check on that. I really don't recall the word great being bandied about.
I was among the most optimistic of what Jones was capable of achieving and I put his ceiling at top 10 to 15. And I still believe that.
Each week the gameplanning was developed for Jones as if he was a third string QB. Don't take any chances, don't stretch the field. It made their margin of victory so so small. And that's why a lot of these games were close and fell apart late. You can't win being that conservative these days. The league is aggressively trying to score and "play basketball on grass" and the Giants offense was right out of the late 70s.
But if the other team is aggressive and you are aggressive, which teams wins? You mean the more aggressive team will always win? SO go for it on 4th and 20?
If you play aggressive vs teams that are better than you playing the same aggressive manner, what do you think teh outcome most likely will be?
Have fun.
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And the excuse made in the OP of this thread that Jones couldn't possibly play well because JJ would get mad when Jones made a mistake is laughable... especially when the writer of the article felt it necessary to use over the top adjectives like "freak out", "horrific" and "debilitating".
Most other starting QBs in the NFL would use their head coach's criticism as fuel to get better. The bottom tier QBs wilt under the pressure while some of their fans use it as an excuse for poor play. 30th Ranked - ( New Window )
IMO you are completely and thoroughly misunderstanding the rankings. For example in 2021 Burrow was not in the top 10. It probably means some scouts and execs have a wait and se attitude. Because as we know in 2021 Burrow didn't have his star WR too. Now Burrow is 5 or 6.
https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/
Below is a link I found - you had guys like Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill ranked ahead of Burrow the prior year.
SO yeah they aren't using excuses and sometimes they just showed you they are "wrong" in a manner of speak for not doing so. Wrong is probably a bad word. More like criteria. SO if they didn't use the excuse criteria for Burrow but yet had him 14 last year and now 5 or, why would you think they would use it for Jones? If they aren't using it for Jones, and they showed you the were :wrong" with Burrow, why take the criticism of Jones to such a level without recognizing the rankings are a bit flawed? - ie not to be taken as literally as you are trying to do.
**In conclusion Burrow had SIX "Tier 4" votes the year before. They should have used "the excuse factor," right? And what you use for 1 player, you can use for the next.
Said in another way -- if the line doesn't gel, Barkley and others miss a bunch of games, Daboll and Kafka have growing pains in their new gigs -- why doesn't Jones deserve another year?
Because if all this were to happen it would mean the team is probably going to suck. As a result, you can potentially get a young up-and-coming QB that is cheap and then use Jones (and Barkley's money) to get other players better suited for our young team going forward. .
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In comment 15763397 Eric from BBI said:
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with the Daniel Jones discussions are the extreme points of view. The truth likely lies in the middle.
Jones will either perform or not in 2022.
But there are viable arguments to say why he may never be the QB hoped as well as viable arguments that explain extenuating circumstances.
Stop being so rational Eric. No place for that here. 😀
I don't see a lot of extreme on the pro DJ side, e.g, I don’t see anyone saying he's definitely going to be a perennial pro bowler, if all this other crap is corrected.
I simply see people recognizing that he's had a shitload of stuff going against him that was out of his control and that just maybe if most of that crap is resolved to a decent degree, he might prove to be good enough (to eventually win the big one, if he has a good enough team (like any QB).
Most of those on the pro DJ side won't be wrong if he ultimately fails bc they never said that wasn't possible. He has this year to prove himself one way or other.
I do see extreme on the other side. The ones who seem to refuse to acknowledge all the crap or call them excuses and say definitively that DJ sucks, no matter what. They're the ones who have stuck their flag on a hill and who could be ultimately proven wrong, if Daboll, Kafka, DJ and team are successful.
+1
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is that great QBs don't make a lot of mistakes. Some folks see Jones make a couple of great plays and think he has what it takes. But all QBs can make great plays, including Trubisky, and Tyrod, and Mariota, and Zach, and Trevor, and Fields, etc. The difference is the great ones are consistent. And one of Jones' fatal flaws is he makes too many errors. He still does. Being repetitively consistent is a skill. Brady is amazing because every snap looks the same. Every dropback is similar. His mechanics are phenomenal. He's a machine. Judge knows this. He was hoping that by fretting over mistakes, they would go away. No matter you whine over the errors though, Jones ain't becoming Brady.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
For the ones like Producer and BW - this is what they do- they over-exaggerate the general these that nearly most of us say is that Jones will likely be gone. Instead they make it sound like some of us think he is the next superstar.
Nearly most of us agree he is going to be gone more than likely. And if he is not gone then there is a very good chance he moved up more than 22 in the rankings to average in year 1 with a more than likely very, very good coaching staff.
Great quarterbacks play well no matter who the coach is. There have been plenty of examples of coordinators who stunk after they moved away from a great QB or great QBs continuing to play well within their normal range when the coordinator changes. Yes, JJ/Garrett are far from ideal, but this feels like more rationalization. It's telling us that our eyes are deceiving us and there must be some other reason why Jones has not played well.
You listed great QB's as a comparison. But who is arguing that Jones is a great QB? You mean if they are not "Burrow, Hebert or Mahomes" then dump them?
What about the 49er's then getting a top a Super Bowl with Jimmy G, and another year to NFC Championship. And Tannehill getting to AFC Championship? These guys were not "Burrow, Hebert, or Mahomes."
Just like some others on here- you are inventing an argument that less than 1 or 2 posters might have said - infrequently to boot.
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In comment 15763388 Producer said:
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is that great QBs don't make a lot of mistakes. Some folks see Jones make a couple of great plays and think he has what it takes. But all QBs can make great plays, including Trubisky, and Tyrod, and Mariota, and Zach, and Trevor, and Fields, etc. The difference is the great ones are consistent. And one of Jones' fatal flaws is he makes too many errors. He still does. Being repetitively consistent is a skill. Brady is amazing because every snap looks the same. Every dropback is similar. His mechanics are phenomenal. He's a machine. Judge knows this. He was hoping that by fretting over mistakes, they would go away. No matter you whine over the errors though, Jones ain't becoming Brady.
No one ever compared Jones to Brady. No one ever said Jones is or would become a 'great' quarterback.
That's not entirely true. There were plenty of posters who said he'd be a great QB (top 10) if he fixed the fumbles
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he had a good OL
Then they said he'd be a great QB if he was in a better system
Now it's shifted to he might be a good (top 15) QB if everything breaks just right
Maybe 1 or 2 posters who are always positive on everything. Other than that - I think you are mistaken.
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In comment 15763433 joeinpa said:
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And the excuse made in the OP of this thread that Jones couldn't possibly play well because JJ would get mad when Jones made a mistake is laughable... especially when the writer of the article felt it necessary to use over the top adjectives like "freak out", "horrific" and "debilitating".
Most other starting QBs in the NFL would use their head coach's criticism as fuel to get better. The bottom tier QBs wilt under the pressure while some of their fans use it as an excuse for poor play. 30th Ranked - ( New Window )
IMO you are completely and thoroughly misunderstanding the rankings. For example in 2021 Burrow was not in the top 10. It probably means some scouts and execs have a wait and se attitude. Because as we know in 2021 Burrow didn't have his star WR too. Now Burrow is 5 or 6.
https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/
Below is a link I found - you had guys like Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill ranked ahead of Burrow the prior year.
SO yeah they aren't using excuses and sometimes they just showed you they are "wrong" in a manner of speak for not doing so. Wrong is probably a bad word. More like criteria. SO if they didn't use the excuse criteria for Burrow but yet had him 14 last year and now 5 or, why would you think they would use it for Jones? If they aren't using it for Jones, and they showed you the were :wrong" with Burrow, why take the criticism of Jones to such a level without recognizing the rankings are a bit flawed? - ie not to be taken as literally as you are trying to do.
**In conclusion Burrow had SIX "Tier 4" votes the year before. They should have used "the excuse factor," right? And what you use for 1 player, you can use for the next.
Tier 4 is also thw "incomplete grade" zone, which Burrow certainly deserved to be in after a rookie year cut short by an injury
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IMO you are completely and thoroughly misunderstanding the rankings. For example in 2021 Burrow was not in the top 10. It probably means some scouts and execs have a wait and se attitude. Because as we know in 2021 Burrow didn't have his star WR too. Now Burrow is 5 or 6.
https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/
Below is a link I found - you had guys like Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill ranked ahead of Burrow the prior year.
SO yeah they aren't using excuses and sometimes they just showed you they are "wrong" in a manner of speak for not doing so. Wrong is probably a bad word. More like criteria. SO if they didn't use the excuse criteria for Burrow but yet had him 14 last year and now 5 or, why would you think they would use it for Jones? If they aren't using it for Jones, and they showed you the were :wrong" with Burrow, why take the criticism of Jones to such a level without recognizing the rankings are a bit flawed? - ie not to be taken as literally as you are trying to do.
**In conclusion Burrow had SIX "Tier 4" votes the year before. They should have used "the excuse factor," right? And what you use for 1 player, you can use for the next.
Tier 4 is also thw "incomplete grade" zone, which Burrow certainly deserved to be in after a rookie year cut short by an injury
Okay. Good point.
But 88% of the voters didn't think the grade was incomplete.
And how many here were incapable off recognizing in year 1 that Burrow wouldn't be superior to all of these - Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill?
Should it really have been an incomplete grade? 88% didn't think so. I know many of us absolutely KNEW Burrow was a stud. Why couldn't some of the experts know?
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In comment 15764224 giantstock said:
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IMO you are completely and thoroughly misunderstanding the rankings. For example in 2021 Burrow was not in the top 10. It probably means some scouts and execs have a wait and se attitude. Because as we know in 2021 Burrow didn't have his star WR too. Now Burrow is 5 or 6.
https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/
Below is a link I found - you had guys like Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill ranked ahead of Burrow the prior year.
SO yeah they aren't using excuses and sometimes they just showed you they are "wrong" in a manner of speak for not doing so. Wrong is probably a bad word. More like criteria. SO if they didn't use the excuse criteria for Burrow but yet had him 14 last year and now 5 or, why would you think they would use it for Jones? If they aren't using it for Jones, and they showed you the were :wrong" with Burrow, why take the criticism of Jones to such a level without recognizing the rankings are a bit flawed? - ie not to be taken as literally as you are trying to do.
**In conclusion Burrow had SIX "Tier 4" votes the year before. They should have used "the excuse factor," right? And what you use for 1 player, you can use for the next.
Tier 4 is also thw "incomplete grade" zone, which Burrow certainly deserved to be in after a rookie year cut short by an injury
Okay. Good point.
But 88% of the voters didn't think the grade was incomplete.
And how many here were incapable off recognizing in year 1 that Burrow wouldn't be superior to all of these - Prescott, Ryan, Murray and Tannehill?
Maybe 1 or 2 but not ALL 4.
Jones will either perform or not in 2022.
But there are viable arguments to say why he may never be the QB hoped as well as viable arguments that explain extenuating circumstances.
The only thing I will say to counter that is, so far, I really like and trust Schoen and Daboll to both know what they are doing and to have a plan. So, if they think otherwise, I'll just have to hope they are right.
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"JJ wouldn't allow a a single mistake to happen. He would freak out for any kind of error...it can also have a debilitating impact on a QB no matter who the QB is."
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well with a bad OL.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well with all the injuries to his WRs.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Jones can't be expected to play well when the Giants keep changing offensive coordinators.
Serves as a viable excuse for DJ to me.
Or maybe, just maybe, Jones isn't very good and these are NOT viable excuses.
Or maybe, just maybe, with football being the ultimate team sport, they ALL contributed to Jones' struggles. SMH.
And Jones to theirs.
Why does that part get left out? Why is Jones only ever the victim of a bad roster and coaching staff, and not part of the bad roster and cause of the conservative coaching?
Keep shaking your head.
The coaching staff gave Jones a rudimentary offense because that's what they thought he was capable of executing. And he couldn't even do that well.
The coaching staff gave Jones a rudimentary offense because that's what they thought he was capable of executing. And he couldn't even do that well.
Whether Jones is good or not, I think the evidence bears out that the coaching staff didn't know how to manage a team or a game plan effectively.
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and never seen as the cause.
The coaching staff gave Jones a rudimentary offense because that's what they thought he was capable of executing. And he couldn't even do that well.
Whether Jones is good or not, I think the evidence bears out that the coaching staff didn't know how to manage a team or a game plan effectively.
A lot goes into coaching. On the whole it was a bad coaching job, for sure. But there was a lot of experience, handling Jones. Garret, Kitchens, Judge, have seen a lot of football. And they decided that Jones couldn't handle more than a rudimentary offense
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In comment 15764901 Producer said:
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and never seen as the cause.
The coaching staff gave Jones a rudimentary offense because that's what they thought he was capable of executing. And he couldn't even do that well.
Whether Jones is good or not, I think the evidence bears out that the coaching staff didn't know how to manage a team or a game plan effectively.
A lot goes into coaching. On the whole it was a bad coaching job, for sure. But there was a lot of experience, handling Jones. Garret, Kitchens, Judge, have seen a lot of football. And they decided that Jones couldn't handle more than a rudimentary offense
No - they were only capable on installing a rudimentary offense. And that's why they're all bagging groceries at my local Stop N Shop now.
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In comment 15764901 Producer said:
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and never seen as the cause.
The coaching staff gave Jones a rudimentary offense because that's what they thought he was capable of executing. And he couldn't even do that well.
Whether Jones is good or not, I think the evidence bears out that the coaching staff didn't know how to manage a team or a game plan effectively.
A lot goes into coaching. On the whole it was a bad coaching job, for sure. But there was a lot of experience, handling Jones. Garret, Kitchens, Judge, have seen a lot of football. And they decided that Jones couldn't handle more than a rudimentary offense
You're so full of shit. You are one funny dude. Who do you think you're kidding????? I have to say thank you for making things so funny on here when you post on Jones.
Ummm by the way- you spoke of Garrett - and then you made up a comment "they decided that Jones couldn't handle more than a rudimentary offense."
Instead of making up comments like you normally do - here is a link to what Garrett insinuated according to teh article:
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https://nypost.com/2021/11/23/jason-garrett-fired-as-giants-offensive-coordinator/
Here is the actual quote:
"It became clear last week where the normally vanilla-talking Garrett laid blame when he insinuated that the offense is tailored to compensate for a weak offensive line."
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And to further that - this is for those of you that took the survey so literal. Here is more in the article:
“Jason was severely handicapped,” one experienced NFL play-caller said. “It’s hard to call plays when you struggle to block and are always behind the chains. You can make the argument the offense lacked creativity, but the offensive line handicaps everything you do.”
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Of course to many of you - this is "just an excuse, right?" After all, tom Brady, Joe Montna, Peyton Manning, Joe Burrow and some other all-time great QB's didn't need a great OLine, right? Lol.