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NY Post: Giants Receivers Being Given Flexibility

Del Shofner : 8/5/2022 9:33 am
to Get to Their Spots.

Hmmm ... OK, but makes me a little nervous until I see that it actually works in games.
receivers being given flexibility - ( New Window )
You don’t have to follow any of these reports  
Big Blue '56 : 8/5/2022 9:37 am : link
to know This will be Daboll’s O with all it’s changes. He will play to players’ strengths and eliminate those plays that expose weaknesses..

Can’t wait for the real games to start
Okay,  
Klaatu : 8/5/2022 9:45 am : link
But it's still all on Jones.
Del  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 9:48 am : link
I think the O will be much improved in the long run, but I can see/hear it now, especially early in the season - "Jones and (receiver) weren't on the same page on that play".

At least we don't have to worry about Mr. Deflection anymore. Biggest addition by subtraction EVER!
Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
PatersonPlank : 8/5/2022 9:54 am : link
His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.
RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 10:19 am : link
In comment 15772325 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.

I don't think Cruz and Nicks both suddenly fell off the same page as Eli in '13 and I don't want to be mean about it, but Rueben Randle (Mr. Wrong Page) wouldn't have been drafted by Schoen and Daboll, based on Daboll's recent comments.

I think Gilbride's O fell apart largely when the OL started to suck so bad. They couldn't protect Eli long enough for KG's plays to develop. I believe Gilbride alluded to the OL being the biggest culprit after he was "retired".
Ok, no more blaming Daniel Jones please. 2022 is all on  
Jimmy Googs : 8/5/2022 10:21 am : link
Golladay, Toney and the other receivers to make this season a success...

Quote:
"Out with the old philosophy that the quarterback gets all the blame and all the glory. Daboll puts more onus on the pass-catchers because it is easier for five minds to think like Jones than it is for one mind to think like five."
Might be a good idea if you have smart WR's...  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/5/2022 10:21 am : link
Not sure if our WRs fit that, though..
^^^  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 10:23 am : link
oh brother
RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/5/2022 10:23 am : link
In comment 15772325 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.


There's good and bad. Option routes leads to miscues and INTs that appears as if either the QB or the WR had no idea what they were looking at.

And given the nature of the NFL, no one will ever say who got the read wrong.

Eli had a lot of those on his record.
RE: ^^^  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/5/2022 10:25 am : link
In comment 15772358 Dr. D said:
Quote:
oh brother


Truth hurts.
RE: RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 10:26 am : link
In comment 15772359 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:


Eli had a lot of those on his record.

A lot of the "not on the same page as Eli" plays involved Shockey and Rueben.
RE: RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
PatersonPlank : 8/5/2022 10:27 am : link
In comment 15772349 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15772325 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.


I don't think Cruz and Nicks both suddenly fell off the same page as Eli in '13 and I don't want to be mean about it, but Rueben Randle (Mr. Wrong Page) wouldn't have been drafted by Schoen and Daboll, based on Daboll's recent comments.

I think Gilbride's O fell apart largely when the OL started to suck so bad. They couldn't protect Eli long enough for KG's plays to develop. I believe Gilbride alluded to the OL being the biggest culprit after he was "retired".


Agree completely on Nicks and Cruz (and Randle). Later their WRs weren't as good, so you end up waiting for nothing as a QB. The OL was the culprit, which begs the question will it work this time (based on the lousy OL of the last number of years).
RE: RE: RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/5/2022 10:29 am : link
In comment 15772363 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15772359 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:




Eli had a lot of those on his record.


A lot of the "not on the same page as Eli" plays involved Shockey and Rueben.
It's not to blame anyone specifically. The point is that when it doesn't work, it makes the offense look clueless ono that play, and no one from outside the locker room will really get to know what went wrong.
RE: RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Johnny5 : 8/5/2022 10:29 am : link
In comment 15772349 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15772325 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.


I don't think Cruz and Nicks both suddenly fell off the same page as Eli in '13 and I don't want to be mean about it, but Rueben Randle (Mr. Wrong Page) wouldn't have been drafted by Schoen and Daboll, based on Daboll's recent comments.

I think Gilbride's O fell apart largely when the OL started to suck so bad. They couldn't protect Eli long enough for KG's plays to develop. I believe Gilbride alluded to the OL being the biggest culprit after he was "retired".

Agreed. And that same viewpoint came from Gilbride himself. He said he was starting to bang the "OL was getting old" drum in 2009, and that they needed to address it. Aging OL and injuries to the WR are what killed that offense for the Giants.
RE: RE: ^^^  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 10:34 am : link
In comment 15772362 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 15772358 Dr. D said:


Quote:


oh brother



Truth hurts.

That was actually meant for the post above yours. As for your post, I don't think we know yet. How can you say "truth hurts" What's your evidence?

Toney was a QB, so I doubt he's Rueben Randle 2.0. Wan Dale was drafted by Schoen and Daboll who are specifically looking for smart players. Golladay doesn't seem like a dummy. I doubt Bellinger is Shockey 2.0. So, I'm hopeful they and DJ will eventually get on the same page, at least most of the time.
I disagree with the fell apart.  
robbieballs2003 : 8/5/2022 10:35 am : link
Gilbride's offense were ones that left a lot to be desired. People hated him at times and the offense and the players. Instead of saying it fell apart. I look at it the other way and that is that it was great when it came together but there was more bad than good. The saving grace was when it did come together it helped win super bowls.
RE: I disagree with the fell apart.  
j_rud : 8/5/2022 10:45 am : link
In comment 15772383 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Gilbride's offense were ones that left a lot to be desired. People hated him at times and the offense and the players. Instead of saying it fell apart. I look at it the other way and that is that it was great when it came together but there was more bad than good. The saving grace was when it did come together it helped win super bowls.


When everyone was on the same page it was a really tough O to stop but man, week to week it was incredibly frustrating. I'll always feel that Eli's numbers, and as a result his reputation, is significantly influenced by playing in that offense most of his career.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 10:54 am : link
In comment 15772369 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15772363 Dr. D said:


Quote:


In comment 15772359 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:




Eli had a lot of those on his record.


A lot of the "not on the same page as Eli" plays involved Shockey and Rueben.

It's not to blame anyone specifically. The point is that when it doesn't work, it makes the offense look clueless ono that play, and no one from outside the locker room will really get to know what went wrong.

But the reality is that certain players were the ones who were too often not on the same page as Eli (e.g., Shockey, Randle), whereas it occurred much less often with other players (Toomer, Plax, Boss, Cruz, Nicks, Odell).

I don't think it's a coincidence that Eli's completion % went up and INT% went down fairly significantly after Shockey was gone.

It's why Daboll recently said that they want smart players, specifically when talking about receivers and their routes.
RE: Okay,  
UConn4523 : 8/5/2022 11:00 am : link
In comment 15772322 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But it's still all on Jones.


That isn't entirely true. IIRC Giants WR had the lease amount of separation in the league - that isn't on Jones. Delivering the ball is, and on most throws he's fairly accurate. So it comes down to both parties executing.

Extreme example but Pat Mahomes doesn't always throw amazing throws, many times Hill is free after breaking a CB or Kelce has a mismatch, etc. Did you see any of that the past couple of years?
RE: RE: I disagree with the fell apart.  
Johnny5 : 8/5/2022 11:04 am : link
In comment 15772405 j_rud said:
Quote:
In comment 15772383 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


Gilbride's offense were ones that left a lot to be desired. People hated him at times and the offense and the players. Instead of saying it fell apart. I look at it the other way and that is that it was great when it came together but there was more bad than good. The saving grace was when it did come together it helped win super bowls.



When everyone was on the same page it was a really tough O to stop but man, week to week it was incredibly frustrating. I'll always feel that Eli's numbers, and as a result his reputation, is significantly influenced by playing in that offense most of his career.

I can see that. Although my view although it was sometimes frustrating I never doubted our ability to score and if we were in a game defensively I always had confidence we could score and win a game.
RE: RE: Okay,  
Klaatu : 8/5/2022 11:10 am : link
In comment 15772422 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15772322 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But it's still all on Jones.



That isn't entirely true. IIRC Giants WR had the lease amount of separation in the league - that isn't on Jones. Delivering the ball is, and on most throws he's fairly accurate. So it comes down to both parties executing.

Extreme example but Pat Mahomes doesn't always throw amazing throws, many times Hill is free after breaking a CB or Kelce has a mismatch, etc. Did you see any of that the past couple of years?


It's true enough. I don't want to hear anymore excuses for Jones. Just get it done or get out.
...  
christian : 8/5/2022 11:19 am : link
The Gilbride comparison only goes so far.

In that system, there was a right answer based on the coverage, and both the quarterback and the target had to independently come to that conclusion.

From what I've read here and in another discussions, and the interviews with the WRs -- this system allows for the WR to pick the depth they run their route, based on how they read the coverage.

Meaning, it's their responsibility to get open.

This works with a QB like Allen or Mahomes who can buy time with their legs both in and out of the pocket, and throw to the spot the WR is picking.

The question of course is Jones that kind of guy?

This isn't the quick 2 read and throw offense a lot of BBIers anticipated.
Nicks Toomer  
Les in TO : 8/5/2022 11:50 am : link
and Cruz were all smart cookies who did well in that type of system as they were on the same page as Eli. Will Golloday and Toney thrive with that type of autonomy? Can DJ see the field and react quickly enough to these adjustments?
RE: RE: RE: ^^^  
Brown_Hornet : 8/5/2022 12:10 pm : link
In comment 15772381 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15772362 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 15772358 Dr. D said:


Quote:


oh brother



Truth hurts.


That was actually meant for the post above yours. As for your post, I don't think we know yet. How can you say "truth hurts" What's your evidence?

Toney was a QB, so I doubt he's Rueben Randle 2.0. Wan Dale was drafted by Schoen and Daboll who are specifically looking for smart players. Golladay doesn't seem like a dummy. I doubt Bellinger is Shockey 2.0. So, I'm hopeful they and DJ will eventually get on the same page, at least most of the time.
Agreed.

What have you seen that suggests that the WRs lack football intelligence?
Option routes have been around a very long time  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/5/2022 12:24 pm : link
You know what helps a young QB and WR's? Be in favorable down/distance and win first down.

I never see stats on this but average starting position for the Giants on 2nd/3rd down has to have been amongst the worst for a decade most years. Why? They could not run the ball.

Fix the OL, be able to run between the tackles and watch QB and points improve. PA game opens (I don't think Eli was fooling anyone in his later years faking to a back). If you have some good skill guys touchdowns and YPA will also jump.

You want to count on a elite QB combined with a outstanding skill group and serviceable OL? Get ready for more HC turnover imv. If that elite skill guy gets hurts it gets really hard. Lose two it falls apart.

I'm hoping for one good enough with the right traits for big games with a upper tier OL and very good D led by its front 7.
RE: ...  
PatersonPlank : 8/5/2022 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15772441 christian said:
Quote:
The Gilbride comparison only goes so far.

In that system, there was a right answer based on the coverage, and both the quarterback and the target had to independently come to that conclusion.

From what I've read here and in another discussions, and the interviews with the WRs -- this system allows for the WR to pick the depth they run their route, based on how they read the coverage.

Meaning, it's their responsibility to get open.

This works with a QB like Allen or Mahomes who can buy time with their legs both in and out of the pocket, and throw to the spot the WR is picking.

The question of course is Jones that kind of guy?

This isn't the quick 2 read and throw offense a lot of BBIers anticipated.


I read this offense a little differently based on the interviews. To me it seems like the WR still has to get to his final place (area), how he gets there is based on him and how the defense is lined up to play him. When a guy needs to get to a 15 yd out, based on the d he can go towards the sideline and up/ go inside and out/or something else. Jones should see the route the same way and know when he will get there.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 8/5/2022 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15772497 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:

I read this offense a little differently based on the interviews. To me it seems like the WR still has to get to his final place (area), how he gets there is based on him and how the defense is lined up to play him. When a guy needs to get to a 15 yd out, based on the d he can go towards the sideline and up/ go inside and out/or something else. Jones should see the route the same way and know when he will get there.


There's a good interview on Giants.com where the receivers talk about picking their depth based on coverage. That's not covered in great detail in this article, but I am piecing together both interviews.

Which is all to say, my understanding of the Gilbride offense, is there was a decision the QB and receiver both had to make based on coverage, and ultimately there being a right answer.

There was plenty of evidence of this working, with Eli throwing to a spot, or a WR turning around in his break and the ball being right on him.

And plenty of evidence where the ball ended up in the ground or in the defenders hand and lots of discussion on blame.
I remove all option routes from my playbook  
Spiciest Memelord : 8/5/2022 12:59 pm : link
In Madden. Unless the receiver has a 90+ Awareness rating he's going to screw up the route.

irl I would remove option routes for Jones too, who seems to be a "slow processor" especially with our receivers with questionable amounts of practice.

Eli who lived in Hoboken would call up Cruz for offseason practice throws.
RE: RE: RE: Okay,  
UConn4523 : 8/5/2022 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15772433 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 15772422 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15772322 Klaatu said:


Quote:


But it's still all on Jones.



That isn't entirely true. IIRC Giants WR had the lease amount of separation in the league - that isn't on Jones. Delivering the ball is, and on most throws he's fairly accurate. So it comes down to both parties executing.

Extreme example but Pat Mahomes doesn't always throw amazing throws, many times Hill is free after breaking a CB or Kelce has a mismatch, etc. Did you see any of that the past couple of years?



It's true enough. I don't want to hear anymore excuses for Jones. Just get it done or get out.


I'm not defending Jones, I actually don't think he will be good enough. But I can separate that from the dreadful WR's and TE's he's been playing with and the impact its had on the offense.
Nice article.  
TC : 8/5/2022 1:20 pm : link
Thanks!
RE: I remove all option routes from my playbook  
Dr. D : 8/5/2022 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15772524 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
In Madden. Unless the receiver has a 90+ Awareness rating he's going to screw up the route.

irl I would remove option routes for Jones too, who seems to be a "slow processor" especially with our receivers with questionable amounts of practice.

Have you contacted Daboll about this? That's valuable shit!

Seriously, I think DJ's processing will seem a lot better when defenders aren't meeting him in the backfield a sec. after the ball is snapped on a regular basis.

Everyone agrees our OL has sucked royally, but some of you act like that has absolutely nothing to do with DJ's processing or performance. Doesn't make sense to me.
RE: Can anyone Say Kevin Gilbride?  
Bill in UT : 8/5/2022 2:33 pm : link
In comment 15772325 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
His offense was great for us, until it fell apart because the WR's completely fell off the same page as Manning. This is the right way to do it, the only way honestly to beat defenses geared to stop a passing attack (plus running the ball successfully to keep them honest).

Gilbride put in this type of offense to lead the Oilers in the 90's to huge offensive outputs, and also the the Giants to Super Bowls.


I was just about to post a comment about Gilbride.
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