lol
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
Knick fans begged for Durand & Kyrie in 2019. Begged.
have got to be the biggest duo coaching headache I have ever seen on one team. It's like watching a combination of the personalities of Dwight Howard, Dennis Rodman, and Carl Pavano rolled into one set of twins.
I am trying to think of teams with more knuckleheads but none of those teams had two co-leaders at the same time or at least the knuckleheads were only a big problems due to their numbers. In this case, each of them is huge problem alone without the other.
have got to be the biggest duo coaching headache I have ever seen on one team. It's like watching a combination of the personalities of Dwight Howard, Dennis Rodman, and Carl Pavano rolled into one set of twins.
I am trying to think of teams with more knuckleheads but none of those teams had two co-leaders at the same time or at least the knuckleheads were only a big problems due to their numbers. In this case, each of them is huge problem alone without the other.
at least not yet, but this is a joke. Yeah coaching was really the problem with the nets last year. It wasnt there second best player missing half the games, or the lack of depth, or gettting Harden and then trading him for a guy who never suits up.
Nets are not winning a title with or without KD. Id trade him now, i get the offers arent great, but get what you can (which will still be a good deal im sure) and move on. He will be 34 when the season starts, he isnt getting better.
Whatever chance the NBA had left to maintain some sense of control ends. It's already a league that's about 90% run by the players, agents and NBAPA. He caves, it's over. The player control will now be absolute, 100%.
He should tell Durant he is under contract. They have no obligation to move him. He doesn't like it he can go home and not get paid. Or can show up, half ass it and ruin his legacy. His choice.
more valuable than Nash the coach. Only an idiot would trade Durant for pennies on the dollar (after you’ve already traded away most of your picks for the rest of the decade to boot) in order to protect this coach.
Not a good look but it's a time-honored NBA tradition for star players to shitcan coaches. Firing Marks would be an awful look though he brought the franchise back from the abyss.
lol
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
lol
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
It's okay when Brady or Rodgers do it because reasons.
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
Giving it a bit more thought, I just wanted to push back on the narrative that it's an NBA problem instead of a more general sports problem. I agree that the NBA has more of the recent examples but I am pretty sure I can find cases in hockey, international soccer, and baseball with a little research.
where its public info. Similar to the Brady situation, its behind the scenes, not played out for the public to witness. I'd guess these things happen all the time, but the perception that the players control everything in the NBA is not good, IMO.
but super teams don’t and that’s what LeBron, Durant, etc want and then bitch constantly when they don’t get it. It’s off putting and makes caring about anything in the NBA very difficult.
Maybe this happened 30 years ago? I wouldn’t know, was too young, but if it was it was behind the scenes of a much better product.
To Lebron. The crying and bitchiness started with him and the player followed his lead.
Magic Johnson and Paul Westhead would like to speak to you. Probably Patrick Ewing and Don Nelson as well. But hey, name the coaches Lebron got fired and their circumstances for the class please
It's that he already had Kenny Atkinson fired so that Nash could be hired, and now two years later he wants his handpicked coach to be fired *along with* the GM.
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
Giving it a bit more thought, I just wanted to push back on the narrative that it's an NBA problem instead of a more general sports problem. I agree that the NBA has more of the recent examples but I am pretty sure I can find cases in hockey, international soccer, and baseball with a little research.
Without a doubt you can. I'll take you a step beyond all this when it comes to international football (what only 'Muricans call Soccer). The Mafia and Serie A in Italy is some interesting shit as well as a scary trip into a dark reality that exists way worse than perception of players merely having an edge over owners in the NBA at the present time:
To Lebron. The crying and bitchiness started with him and the player followed his lead.
Magic Johnson and Paul Westhead would like to speak to you. Probably Patrick Ewing and Don Nelson as well. But hey, name the coaches Lebron got fired and their circumstances for the class please
Mike Brown
David Blatt
Luke Walton
Wanted Spolestra fired but Riley refused
Frank Vogel
You can throw in Paul Silas and the winning record he had when fired.
Is that enough for you?
sad to see him making excuses instead of taking accountability
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
Bingo!
"If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end "
and probably even before that. jason kidd did with the nets at least once. riley choosing to not fire spo for lebron was probably the only time any organization has stood up to a super star coaching demand this century.
oversimplifying this to a superstar thinking a coach needs to be fired is exactly what kd is trying to do - deflect this demand as a normal thing and not a colossal blame shift to distract from how bad he was in Boston.
RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
But KG did pick his destination. Or maybe Wade engineered the Miami super team? But then again wasn't it really Riley? Technically, the first guys to try and create a super team via cap space were McGrady and Grant Hill 10 years prior.
Regardless, there's a million examples of players not only influencing coaching changes, but forcing their way to better situations. Putting it on LeBron is absurd.
RE: It's not so much that Durant wants the coach and GM fired
It's that he already had Kenny Atkinson fired so that Nash could be hired, and now two years later he wants his handpicked coach to be fired *along with* the GM.
It's a bit much, no?
He’s bluffing. However, I think that the Nets should stop playing ultra hardball and actually try to make a trade.
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
I don't subscribe to the theory the player must want to win at any cost (supposedly a virtue) -- but with the caveat it must be on the team that drafted him, without a good supporting cast, and with coaches and management that aren't very good.
Owners are ultimately responsible for sussing out guys who are buttholes. And make a judgement call if the risk is worth it.
orchestrated Paul Westhead's firing. Westhead led the Lakers to a title in 1980, but was replaced by assistant Pat Riley after the '81 season and the rest is history.
You go back to spring '16 & you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger KD fan than moi. But he lost me when he signed with the 73 win Dubs & then didn't understand why people lost their shit over that. Then the whole burner accounts & now this...
He's an all time great. No disputing that. But he is soft AF in my opinion. He is always looking for the easy way out.
he is not qualified and never was for the job--- he also is not good at it- and clearly does not have the players respect.
Too damn bad. Durant had a good coach fired because he didn’t want to be coached and he and your other clown Kyrie hand picked Nash. I for one am ecstatic those two are suffering the the consequences of their laughable arrogance
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
You can say the same for just about any business. The workers are the backbone. That damn sure doesn’t mean they are qualified to make the business decisions.
I thought for sure they were coming to my Knicks. Now, I am very grateful that those guys turned down the Knicks because the Nets were the “cooler” franchise.
However, I don’t think this is an indictment of the NBA. Basketball is that rare sport when one player can make a huge difference. If you get one transcendent talent, your team becomes a championship contender immediately.
So because of that, one transcendent player can dictate where he wants to play and who he wants to play with.
However, this is BS. Durant picked his team. He picked his players. He resigned a monster contract. NOW, he wants out? This is about Durant’s character. Not the character of the league.
And shockingly, the ass clown agrees with Durant and “hates” Nash and Marks.
Marks finally gets fed up with Kyries bullshit and stooped catering to his garbage, so now he hates him. What a circus these two are… Kyrie hates Nash and Marks - ( New Window )
Too damn bad. Durant had a good coach fired because he didn’t want to be coached and he and your other clown Kyrie hand picked Nash. I for one am ecstatic those two are suffering the the consequences of their laughable arrogance
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
I don't subscribe to the theory the player must want to win at any cost (supposedly a virtue) -- but with the caveat it must be on the team that drafted him, without a good supporting cast, and with coaches and management that aren't very good.
Owners are ultimately responsible for sussing out guys who are buttholes. And make a judgement call if the risk is worth it.
It’s disproportionate? The stars of the league will soon be making $1m per game played, and even the mid level guys will make close to half that. They pick and choose whatever they want to do, still bitch about it after getting everything they want, and ruin franchises on their way out.
I’m all for players making every penny they can but they shouldn’t be running teams and that’s exactly what they are trying to do. There’s no consequences for them and its making for such a poor product, hard to see what’s so great about it. Fans are losing, the league is a joke.
And shockingly, the ass clown agrees with Durant and “hates” Nash and Marks.
Marks finally gets fed up with Kyries bullshit and stooped catering to his garbage, so now he hates him. What a circus these two are… Kyrie hates Nash and Marks - ( New Window )
I struggle to think of a more contemptible person in sports than Kyrie Irving.
It’s disproportionate? The stars of the league will soon be making $1m per game played, and even the mid level guys will make close to half that. They pick and choose whatever they want to do, still bitch about it after getting everything they want, and ruin franchises on their way out.
I’m all for players making every penny they can but they shouldn’t be running teams and that’s exactly what they are trying to do. There’s no consequences for them and its making for such a poor product, hard to see what’s so great about it. Fans are losing, the league is a joke.
- the highest paid players make about half of what you’re describing and won’t be for a long time
- the players have been running the league for as long as you’ve probably been alive or longer, the only difference today is they’re splitting the revenue
- the owners pick who they pay, how much, and for how long — those are the consequences
These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
RE: I was devastated when the Nets signed KD and Kyrie
I thought for sure they were coming to my Knicks. Now, I am very grateful that those guys turned down the Knicks because the Nets were the “cooler” franchise.
However, I don’t think this is an indictment of the NBA. Basketball is that rare sport when one player can make a huge difference. If you get one transcendent talent, your team becomes a championship contender immediately.
So because of that, one transcendent player can dictate where he wants to play and who he wants to play with.
However, this is BS. Durant picked his team. He picked his players. He resigned a monster contract. NOW, he wants out? This is about Durant’s character. Not the character of the league.
well said. im a nets fan and in total agreement with the above, i hope they extend marks trade kd and move on, but id 100% do it all over again the same way. in the 1 playoff series the 3 stars played together they looked unbeatable and with him and harden on 1 leg they were 1 shoe size from knocking out giannis despite an avalanche of bad luck.
just like harden i think his freak out is much more about an inability to take accountability than anything anyone else did.
Not really. There’s no incentive to play 82 anymore. Top players are in the 60’s now and some played 50s because they are either hurt often or easing coming back because there’s little urgency. Durant and LeBron both played a hair over 50 games and make $40m+. They make almost $1m per game.
Yes the league is a joke. It’s perfectly fine if you love it but asking the question back to me like I’m saying something completely foreign is strange. I don’t know anyone that takes the league seriously. More of my friends like hockey over the nba.
RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
Any "super" team that was built before LeBron pulled his announcement either happened organically through front offices making smart decisions and without a spectacle or there were cases like the 2004 Lakers when aging veterans who were on the verge of irrelevance tried to band together to finally win a ring. We see that model all over sports where aging stars without titles try to tag along for a title. Never before had we seen the league's best player hi-jack free agency, collude with other players and make a spectacle of it as LeBron did.
I used to really appreciate Durant's game. In OKC I actually thought I was watching a "tough" player. Then his team blows a 3-0 series lead against the best team in the league and a month later he joins them. That's Mickey Mouse stuff.
The Nets owner should tell Durant, do whatever you want but you're going nowhere. You're under contract.
Not really. There’s no incentive to play 82 anymore. Top players are in the 60’s now and some played 50s because they are either hurt often or easing coming back because there’s little urgency. Durant and LeBron both played a hair over 50 games and make $40m+. They make almost $1m per game.
Yes the league is a joke. It’s perfectly fine if you love it but asking the question back to me like I’m saying something completely foreign is strange. I don’t know anyone that takes the league seriously. More of my friends like hockey over the nba.
I get your point on games played, I missed that vs. total games.
The league is enjoying unprecedented success and popularity around the globe, so your friend group finding the current state a joke is a little anecdotal.
Just out of curiosity, when was the time the NBA wasn't a joke?
I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
it’s clearly for kids and certainly no longer geared towards adults. LeBrons first run in Cleveland was the last time I enjoyed the NBA, so mid to late 2000s. I was actually a big LeBron fan when he was getting started (same age, followed him in high school like many others did). At that time there was a good mix of parity and some really good personalities that were genuine. You got to also see the last of what was left of the big man era. Then came the clown show.
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
it’s clearly for kids and certainly no longer geared towards adults. LeBrons first run in Cleveland was the last time I enjoyed the NBA, so mid to late 2000s. I was actually a big LeBron fan when he was getting started (same age, followed him in high school like many others did). At that time there was a good mix of parity and some really good personalities that were genuine. You got to also see the last of what was left of the big man era. Then came the clown show.
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
I think guys like Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Booker, Jokic and several others are fabulous personalities and great basketball players.
Largely home grown teams have a path to a championship. The Bucks did it, the Celtics and the Suns are on the cusp.
There are handful of buttholes in the NBA, with the clout to call bigger shots. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. I don't like Lebron, KD, and Harden etc. -- but they are becoming increasingly less relevant.
I put the blame on the owners who acquiesce to butthole players.
RE: RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
This is an extremely charitable version of events. It's fun to shit on LeBron and he definitely took it to the next level of mainstream with "the decision", but IMO, it's pretty clear KG and Allen decided to team up with Pierce first. Here's Ainge talking about how he had to convince KG to come in the trade. - ( New Window )
That article doesn’t make that clear at all. What it makes clear is that Boston wanted Garnett, but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend. It wasn’t until Boston was able to trade for Allen that Garnett felt like they were a team capable of winning and was then willing to go there. KG wasn’t trying to team up so much as he wasn’t going to take a trade to another situation unless it was one in which he’d be able to try and win a title.
Also, I don’t remember the trio in Boston every trying to hijack the franchise. Lebron and now Durant/Kyrie pretty clearly have moved in free agency with the intent on teaming up with their buddies and then seizing control of the front office decisions.
KD obviously leaked this to try and get public support for this
but I think it’s very unlikely given what’s happened in the NBA that the public in Brooklyn cares enough about these guys to provide that outcry. Good for Tsai for quickly supporting them, even if Nash doesn’t deserve it. I also like how Tsai said he would do what’s best for the Brooklyn Nets which is basically a warning shot to KD that he ain’t trading him until he gets the right value. And I believe Tsai is the kind of guy who would make KD sit.
My issue with Lebron and these superstars are that...
and they make the GMs make these super short sighted deals to cater to their whims. And then when there's nothing left to leverage, they can just moves on to another team.
I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
The numbers do not support that view at all.
Can you share these numbers?
RE: RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
Bingo!
Pierce, KG, Allen weren't a super team? Shit, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman def were. I'm not a Lebron stan but this narrative that he's bad for the game is wrong.
When you acquire James, Durant, or Irving — is it a big surprise when they do something ridiculous or make a move for team control?
It’s not like the players can make teams sign them.
I’m a fan of guys like Leonard, Davis, George, etc. making it known where they want to play and with whom they want to play. Especially if they are willing to make less money to team up.
When management treats players like partners in the operation, it’s good for the sport.
When you acquire James, Durant, or Irving — is it a big surprise when they do something ridiculous or make a move for team control?
It’s not like the players can make teams sign them.
I’m a fan of guys like Leonard, Davis, George, etc. making it known where they want to play and with whom they want to play. Especially if they are willing to make less money to team up.
When management treats players like partners in the operation, it’s good for the sport.
You're killing this thread! Agree with everything.
I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
The numbers do not support that view at all.
Can you share these numbers?
In 1998, the finals ratings were 18.7 on average for the series. This year for a marquee matchup it was 6.6. Attendance is down for most teams except the few with good records.
Sure. The NBA had record revenue on the 2021/2022 season in excess of 10B. The NBA had its highest regular season TV viewership last year since 2018.
The NBA related footprint and media impressions are the biggest of any sports league in the world on Instagram.
Basketball itself has the third largest global fanbase behind soccer and cricket, and the NBA had the largest self-reported fan base of any basketball league in the world by a huge margin in 2021.
LeBron was known as “the King” and famously had his mega sneaker deal before he even played one minute in the league.
After his first few years in Cleveland, I never understood the narrative that he just had to leave Cleveland because he was doomed to fail there and everyone felt so sorry for him. LeBron had already been to a finals with Cleveland before he left. Look at what Jordan had to go through. Shaq and Kobe had to experience some losing before they broke through.
The league, and LeBron and those around him all panicked because how can you have a king with no rings? “The Decision” was terrible for the sport.
In 1998, the finals ratings were 18.7 on average for the series. This year for a marquee matchup it was 6.6. Attendance is down for most teams except the few with good records.
Broadcast TV numbers are not how any media company or sports league in 2022 ultimately measure either popularity or financial success. It's only part of much more dynamic media environment. It's a completely different world than nearly 25 years ago.
Attendance on the other hand is typically a good leading indicator and factor to watch. Most analysts I work with caution gleaning too much data from attendance right now, as there is still a Covid impact in the behavior of in-person attendance.
but how much? If LeBron is going to act like a baby when he does win he’d do that anywhere. So should GMs across the league ban LeBron from playing?
Seems like a big cop out especially in a league that’s Star driven and very rarely can teams contend without getting the mercenaries.
So blame whoever you want, the league is what it is and it isn’t very compelling.
Teams make a choice to do business with unpredictable players. Doing business with Lebron James gives and it takes. He has after all delivered a championship to every team with whom he's played.
How do you define mercenary? The 2022 Warriors were largely a home grown core, with the exception of Wiggins. The Celtics the same. The 2021 Bucks and Suns the same, with exception of an aging Chris Paul.
The Vegas odds right now are Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State, Clippers, Suns -- in that order. The only team headlined by veteran acquisitions is LA.
If they move KD they're not going to get equal value (as is the case when moving superstars) and they don't have control of their own picks which is typically a silver lining to moving a star player as you get a bunch of assets and should have higher draft picks to try and rebuild the team by finding the next star.
But they also can't let Marks go because KD wants them to. He's a good GM and those are hard to find. If you let him go you risk whoever your next hire is royally screwing up like past regimes and setting the team back many years.
The best bet imo is to move him for Jaylen Brown if indeed that offer is on the table, even if it doesn't come with more than 1 pick and Derrick White instead of Jaylen Brown. That's still better than any other reported offers and it's unlikely that there's a surprise team/offer out there that would beat it for the Nets current situation.
A Brown/Simmons led team isn't a championship contender but it's probably a playoff team, assuming Simmons looks like the player he was in Philly and hasn't fallen off a cliff. There just isn't another guy available where that would the case.
I bet the Celtics would do Brown, White, and an unprotected first.
That’s a fair deal for KD.
That was their rumored offer, although pick protection wasn't specified. Apparently the Nets declined and asked for Brown, Smart, multiple picks and another rotation player. That tells me they weren't serious about actually moving him but this recent news might change things.
If I am Cs, I don't know if I am trading Brown for a soon to be 34 year old KD who has played 90 games these past 3 seasons.
Oh I definitely agree with you there. The Celtics have a good young core that made the finals last year and got better this offseason. In the best case scenario they're compressing their title window to the next few years. In the worst case scenario, things go south quickly and they're screwed for a few years. Boston also isn't an organization that's going to bend over backwards to make him happy (and it's Tatum's team anyways) so there's a risk he has another temper tantrum and forces his way elsewhere.
prime years ahead of him - but there is some risk with him. There's been some articles recently that get into why he's almost certain to NOT extend his deal prior to unrestricted free agency. Apparently, since his current deal is not a max deal, the dollars he can get via extension are signficantly less than if he waits for free agency.
prime years ahead of him - but there is some risk with him. There's been some articles recently that get into why he's almost certain to NOT extend his deal prior to unrestricted free agency. Apparently, since his current deal is not a max deal, the dollars he can get via extension are signficantly less than if he waits for free agency.
Yeah, it's a similar situation to the one with Dejounte Murray. Spurs didn't want to risk losing him for nothing so they dealt him
we don’t agree on the reasons, no sense arguing about it. But I’m hoping the light at the end of the tunnel is here with LeBron no longer the best player in the game and ditto for Durant. As great as both players are/were the NBA will have a better product without them.
so did MJ. Ahh the 80s, the good old days when everything was swept under the rug.
Larry Bird didn't do it. I wonder why. Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Boston made all the right moves early on in his career now could it.
as a net fan i still think the phoenix deal makes the most sense
i'd have preferred it with ayton, but bridges and cam johnson signed for 4 years plus a bunch of good picks (since CP3/KD are the ages they are) is a very solid deal.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
RE: The Nets are really stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they move KD they're not going to get equal value (as is the case when moving superstars) and they don't have control of their own picks which is typically a silver lining to moving a star player as you get a bunch of assets and should have higher draft picks to try and rebuild the team by finding the next star.
But they also can't let Marks go because KD wants them to. He's a good GM and those are hard to find. If you let him go you risk whoever your next hire is royally screwing up like past regimes and setting the team back many years.
The best bet imo is to move him for Jaylen Brown if indeed that offer is on the table, even if it doesn't come with more than 1 pick and Derrick White instead of Jaylen Brown. That's still better than any other reported offers and it's unlikely that there's a surprise team/offer out there that would beat it for the Nets current situation.
A Brown/Simmons led team isn't a championship contender but it's probably a playoff team, assuming Simmons looks like the player he was in Philly and hasn't fallen off a cliff. There just isn't another guy available where that would the case.
Make him sit. That is how you regain control of the league. Durant signed a four year deal last year, he freely entered into it. If the Nets can’t get anything remote to his value, Tsai is in a better position to take the loss than KD. These are his last years. He is bound by four years. Tsai will always be a multi billionaire whether or not he trades KD or not.
it’s clearly for kids and certainly no longer geared towards adults. LeBrons first run in Cleveland was the last time I enjoyed the NBA, so mid to late 2000s. I was actually a big LeBron fan when he was getting started (same age, followed him in high school like many others did). At that time there was a good mix of parity and some really good personalities that were genuine. You got to also see the last of what was left of the big man era. Then came the clown show.
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
so the league was geared more towards adults in the past but now? How so?
The big man era? Which consisted of (what most would call) boring low post play? And if you enjoy really enjoy skilled big men, how can you not be fascinated by Giannis or Jokic?
Was it not a clown show for much of the 90s and early 2000s when you had mercurial stars and high profile players like Webber, DC, Sheed, Iverson, Steve Francis, Marbury, Carter, etc.?
Were you really a die hard fan for 20 years? If so, how did you engage with the product? Were you watching a favorite team night after night and now you don't?
It sure seems like most of what you dislike about the modern game has been a part of the league for a LONG time. You just weren't aware of it - which is probably the same reason the strong points of the modern game elude you.
RE: as a net fan i still think the phoenix deal makes the most sense
i'd have preferred it with ayton, but bridges and cam johnson signed for 4 years plus a bunch of good picks (since CP3/KD are the ages they are) is a very solid deal.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
supposedly Barnes is off the table. If there's a deal with the Raptors, it likely involves two players from the Siakam/FVV/Trent/OG foursome - and then picks. Which is a pretty good haul IMO.
RE: RE: as a net fan i still think the phoenix deal makes the most sense
i'd have preferred it with ayton, but bridges and cam johnson signed for 4 years plus a bunch of good picks (since CP3/KD are the ages they are) is a very solid deal.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
supposedly Barnes is off the table. If there's a deal with the Raptors, it likely involves two players from the Siakam/FVV/Trent/OG foursome - and then picks. Which is a pretty good haul IMO.
Don't think either Barnes or Siakam would be on the table because the goal would be to pair Durant with those two + FVV. Probably still one of the better packages though given the number of picks they can offer and OG is a nice young player.
These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
Those were great years no doubt about. The best decades of basketball were the 60s, late 80s/early 90s, and 20s.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
that's my sense since they cheered when he got hurt but who knows.
i think the toronto people who think putting barnes on the table is nuts are nuts. he's a good player but winning ROY is far from a guarantee for anything, i think you have to go back to KD for the last ROY who won an MVP. Barnes is a nice player but i'd bet against him ever getting an MVP vote over his career let alone winning one. KD + keeping Siakam, FVV, OG would give the Raps a legitimate shot at a championship for at least 2 years. They gave up Poetl, Derozan, and a pick for 1 year of Kawhi.
but regardless even with Barnes on the table im not sure that offer is better than a phoenix offer with more futures and a very solid player in Bridges or a Boston offer around Brown. i dont think it's a guarantee Barnes ends up better than Brown (though the extra years of control are a big value).
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Celtics started the engineered super team
It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
This is an extremely charitable version of events. It's fun to shit on LeBron and he definitely took it to the next level of mainstream with "the decision", but IMO, it's pretty clear KG and Allen decided to team up with Pierce first. Here's Ainge talking about how he had to convince KG to come in the trade. - ( New Window )
That article doesn’t make that clear at all. What it makes clear is that Boston wanted Garnett, but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend. It wasn’t until Boston was able to trade for Allen that Garnett felt like they were a team capable of winning and was then willing to go there. KG wasn’t trying to team up so much as he wasn’t going to take a trade to another situation unless it was one in which he’d be able to try and win a title.
Also, I don’t remember the trio in Boston every trying to hijack the franchise. Lebron and now Durant/Kyrie pretty clearly have moved in free agency with the intent on teaming up with their buddies and then seizing control of the front office decisions.
Again, I'm not saying it's the same as what Kyrie and KD have pulled here or LeBron has pulled a few times. It's not. I'm saying this is the beginning of the change that has led to what we're seeing here. And there's a real low distinction between "but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend" and stars picking their teammates. He approved the trade once Ainge told him he could also get Allen. Credit to Ainge for having the vision to see it and pull it off.
& credit to McHale for doing a solid for this old teammate
IVe answered your questions ad nauseam in this thread and others, go read them if you want more. And also ask the same questions to everyone else that feels the same way I do.
I don’t like this version of the NBA. Nothing you say will change that. I’m eager to come back though so hopefully the things I dont like about it will wane in time.
I think the NBA has already turned the corner from the goofy Lebron Decison era, which I thought was cringy. But I will always support and respect the players choosing where and with whom they play.
They get drafted into four years of team control, with only two years of guaranteed money. These are word class athletes, who are the product and the face of the league. When the time comes to choose their circumstances, they deserve the right to pick.
There are a few annoying apples out there. And that might actually just be Lebron and Durant. Those two don’t define the league.
The face of the league is Curry, who is the perfect player. Great personality, loyal AF to GSW, revolutionized the game, and just keeps winning. The future of the game is Booker, Joker, Tatum, and Giannis — who are all great personalities on and off the court.
Lebron James is just some guy who used to be the best, who’s angling for his post-NBA career. KD is just some guy, who’s well, just some guy.
him fire Atkinson, so what's one more coach? And Kyrie has already come out and said him and KD can manage the team. So what's the problem? lol...
They should seriously do this. Tell him, if you want to dictate front office decisions and shift blame, then you can be the player coach and have to answer for the team every night
Lots of people in the league expect a Mitchell trade
He basically cost them the series against Milwaukee in 2021. Having Durant bring the ball up and go one-on-one every possession in the last three minutes was just idiotic.
And Im not a Nets fan. So that is an outsider perspective.
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
Those were great years no doubt about. The best decades of basketball were the 60s, late 80s/early 90s, and 20s.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The NBA's popularity was getting attraction globally in the '80s. And then the '92 Dream Team came along, and the global interest just spiked after the Barcelona Olympics.
So, I am feeling pretty good that if today's viewing options existed back then, the numbers would have been even more enormous. By that time, Jordan was probably more recognizable worldwide than Ali.
Obviously, I can't prove it, but I think there are good reasons to believe so...
RE: Lots of people in the league expect a Mitchell trade
To me, the NBA's peak popularity was probably the second 3peat Bulls when they were like the modern day Beatles. Try explaining to a 25 year old today how big Michael Jordan was in the '90s. He was EVERYWHERE.
I love the NBA though. And it is really bursting with talent nowadays.
Well, look @ Irving in the post game presser following the Cs sweep where he's talking about how him, KD, Marks, & Tsai are going to shape the future of the franchise.
are the teams that allow their stars to habe a say and recruit other players but also know that the GM and Coach run the team..
The problem comes when the player thinks he runs the entire team and franchise it undermines the coach and GM..
there's no best way. the heat got a few rings out of lebron but it ended badly. gs got a few rings out of kd, it ended badly. in the nba you get the best players you can and hope it doesnt blow up.
being in LA or having all time greats like riley/phil slightly improve the odds but there will probably never be another tim duncan.
i do think adam silver is going to try to give teams more power in the next cba but good luck figuring that out.
I am definitely in team 'Player empowerment' but when a guy who signed a 4 year extension last summer is holding a team hostage & demanding either a trade or the GM/HC to be fired...I think something is amiss, and not in a good way.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The 80s and 90s did not have viewing options as people today have between social media outlets. The game today has so much exposure and the numbers should be higher. The talent today is greater than its ever been but it doesn’t connect to the people like 80s/90s basketball did. I am not going to get into all the reasons why…
But I think the physicality of the game being way down is the number 1 reason the play isn’t as good. It’s like watching street ball with more talented players. It just doesn’t connect with the 40 and over crowd.
I am definitely in team 'Player empowerment' but when a guy who signed a 4 year extension last summer is holding a team hostage & demanding either a trade or the GM/HC to be fired...I think something is amiss, and not in a good way.
no disagreement here. i just dont know what anyone can do if a player is so willing burn a team down.
I'm fascinated to see how this plays out. Tsai doesn't look like he's going to give in to KD's demands & the Nets aren't going to trade KD for peanuts. This could go on for awhile. KD is such a hooper...I really can't see him pulling a Simmons with Philly & just sitting out until he's moved.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
are the teams that allow their stars to habe a say and recruit other players but also know that the GM and Coach run the team..
The problem comes when the player thinks he runs the entire team and franchise it undermines the coach and GM..
there's no best way. the heat got a few rings out of lebron but it ended badly. gs got a few rings out of kd, it ended badly. in the nba you get the best players you can and hope it doesnt blow up.
being in LA or having all time greats like riley/phil slightly improve the odds but there will probably never be another tim duncan.
i do think adam silver is going to try to give teams more power in the next cba but good luck figuring that out.
Rarely does it end perfectly, but to win a ship the best way his to gice thosr players a say and work in tandem with the Gm and Coach eventually yes it blows up but there cant be a fight between stars and front office
I'm fascinated to see how this plays out. Tsai doesn't look like he's going to give in to KD's demands & the Nets aren't going to trade KD for peanuts. This could go on for awhile. KD is such a hooper...I really can't see him pulling a Simmons with Philly & just sitting out until he's moved.
i think they will take a deal in the next week or so, extend marks, and move on. the rumored boston deal (which was supposedly discussed like 6 weeks ago) was already close. somebody will come in a little higher and then kyrie will get dealt to la.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The 80s and 90s did not have viewing options as people today have between social media outlets. The game today has so much exposure and the numbers should be higher.
The flip side to that is people didn't have infinite choices and access to entertainment in the 80/90s.
Media companies don't measure the success and popularity of their product in these terms any longer.
I'm a perfect example. I'm 40, big NBA fan, grew up with a Kevin McHale poster in my room.
Fifteen years ago I'd catch probably the majority of 40 NBA games, and some portion of the at least another 20.
Today, given the choice to watch an NBA game in February, or watch Netflix and breeze through the truncated version of the game in 10 mins in the morning, I'm probably choosing Netflix.
I am definitely in team 'Player empowerment' but when a guy who signed a 4 year extension last summer is holding a team hostage & demanding either a trade or the GM/HC to be fired...I think something is amiss, and not in a good way.
I also lean towards the players on most of these issues but agree this one is way out there.
Btw, a lot of kids in their teens and 20s watch more for individual players than teams. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and while I will always be die-hard Knicks, it is fun to appreciate the greatness of players on other teams (as long as they're not torturing the Knicks a la MJ).
I've noticed that too; I have a colleague who is in his late 20s & loves Kawhi Leonard of all people & just roots for him. So he's liked the Spurs, Raps, & now LAC.
The weird thing to me is what happens when said player retires. But I guess he'll just gravitate towards someone else.
I'm old school. I root for the jersey, though there are occasions where I'll root for another team as long as it doesn't impact the Giants/Knicks, ala Tuck when he was a Raider.
not sure if i missed this earlier but this is hilarious if true
this has been such an incoherent tantrum, if you wanted to take KD's side can anyone even explain what that is?
Quote:
"The timing of it is also unusual," said Brian Windhorst on Tuesday. "While star players have gotten coaches fired for decades and will get them fired for decades, he didn't express this, as far as I'm aware to the Nets at the end of the season. And he didn't express this to the Nets when he made his trade demand. So doing it now is a maneuver. A maneuver that I don't think worked.
I see it as maybe an attempt for KD to accelerate him being traded, as it is August & if Tsai bended to KD's demand, the Nets wouldn't have a big window to hire a new GM/HC.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
The Durant thing may be an outlier but it’s literally what this thread was about. Yet you went right into your “I love this player empowerment stuff!”.
keep it quiet, you want out? fine but dont leak it to Woj so the whole world knows you want out..
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
The problem with this is that Durant WANTS to appear as powerful and in control. It’s incredibly important to him. So he’ll no he’s not keeping it quiet. He doesn’t give a damn about the Nets. They mean less than nothing to him
RE: RE: I think KD has played this wrong from the start
keep it quiet, you want out? fine but dont leak it to Woj so the whole world knows you want out..
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
The problem with this is that Durant WANTS to appear as powerful and in control. It’s incredibly important to him. So he’ll no he’s not keeping it quiet. He doesn’t give a damn about the Nets. They mean less than nothing to him
But if you really want out, coming out publicly kills all leverage, if you keep it quoet he is probably already traded
RE: I think KD has played this wrong from the start
KD is a top 15ish player of all time. But this is the shit-along with him signing with a Warriors juggernaut-that people are going to remember.
I love KD as a player. He is amazing. But the dude comes across soft AF.
Durant is perpetually unhappy and a chronic bellyacher.
He was with a terrific team at OKC but couldn't make it work. So, he bailed for Golden State. He won titles with GS and played with a good group of guys. But he couldn't make that work. So, he bailed for the Brooklyn to play with one of his best friends, Irving. And now he's been able to make that work.
I have a hard time putting him in the top twenty...because I'm holding this Nets debacle against him.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
The Durant thing may be an outlier but it’s literally what this thread was about. Yet you went right into your “I love this player empowerment stuff!”.
I absolutely love players having the reigns. I was responding to the posts bemoaning Durant as evidence the league was terrible. It's not.
I'm 100% right. You must have missed the rest of my first post.
Quote:
Owners are ultimately responsible for sussing out guys who are buttholes. And make a judgement call if the risk is worth it.
not the only reason, but definitely one of them. No doubt in my mind. Him having the reigns is not a fun experience other than the comedic value. Ditto LeBron. Ditto Irving.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
Anthony Davis did it just a couple of years ago, so it isn’t that much of an outlier.
I think KD realizes he has no leverage (unlike AD when he held out, KD is 34 and can’t afford to play his bluff by holding out), and is making these demands to try and force the Nets’ hands.
As Hollinger notes in today’s Atlantic, the Nets best bet may be to wait until mid season, when this summer’s FA’s can be dealt. Then revisit the PHO offer with Ayton. Nets should be in no hurry to deal him, they hold the upper hand.
he is not qualified and never was for the job--- he also is not good at it- and clearly does not have the players respect.
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
I think I'd rather Kyrie as GM than Steve Mills.
I am trying to think of teams with more knuckleheads but none of those teams had two co-leaders at the same time or at least the knuckleheads were only a big problems due to their numbers. In this case, each of them is huge problem alone without the other.
I am trying to think of teams with more knuckleheads but none of those teams had two co-leaders at the same time or at least the knuckleheads were only a big problems due to their numbers. In this case, each of them is huge problem alone without the other.
Jailblazers
Nets are not winning a title with or without KD. Id trade him now, i get the offers arent great, but get what you can (which will still be a good deal im sure) and move on. He will be 34 when the season starts, he isnt getting better.
He should tell Durant he is under contract. They have no obligation to move him. He doesn't like it he can go home and not get paid. Or can show up, half ass it and ruin his legacy. His choice.
Quote:
They did this to themselves.
Quote:
lol
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
Quote:
They did this to themselves.
Quote:
lol
Optimus-NY : 2:41 pm : link : reply
Gotta love the NBA.
Just to play devil's advocate, didn't the universally beloved GOAT OB Tom Brady, quietly do the same thing in Tampa? Or are we all believing that story about the timing of Arians' retirement had nothing to do with his comeback?
It's okay when Brady or Rodgers do it because reasons.
Preferably the Maine Celtics.
no it can't. It's been going on for decades in the NBA.
So wrong. LeBron always honored all of his contracts.
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
Giving it a bit more thought, I just wanted to push back on the narrative that it's an NBA problem instead of a more general sports problem. I agree that the NBA has more of the recent examples but I am pretty sure I can find cases in hockey, international soccer, and baseball with a little research.
Maybe this happened 30 years ago? I wouldn’t know, was too young, but if it was it was behind the scenes of a much better product.
Magic Johnson and Paul Westhead would like to speak to you. Probably Patrick Ewing and Don Nelson as well. But hey, name the coaches Lebron got fired and their circumstances for the class please
It's a bit much, no?
Quote:
I believe you're right Semi-Pro, but what's you're point? It is true that ALL big-time players in any sport around the world have a louder voice in what happens behind the scenes, especially peak players like Tom Brady and Kevin Durant (Tom Cruise in Hollywood). It seems more prevalent in the NBA though.
Giving it a bit more thought, I just wanted to push back on the narrative that it's an NBA problem instead of a more general sports problem. I agree that the NBA has more of the recent examples but I am pretty sure I can find cases in hockey, international soccer, and baseball with a little research.
Without a doubt you can. I'll take you a step beyond all this when it comes to international football (what only 'Muricans call Soccer). The Mafia and Serie A in Italy is some interesting shit as well as a scary trip into a dark reality that exists way worse than perception of players merely having an edge over owners in the NBA at the present time:
How mafia and corruption scandals rocked Italian football and left fans with a crisis of faith - 21 June, 2019 / The Conversation.com
The Mafia and Football in Italy - By Max Payne - 27 November, 2020 / The Laziali.com
Quote:
To Lebron. The crying and bitchiness started with him and the player followed his lead.
Magic Johnson and Paul Westhead would like to speak to you. Probably Patrick Ewing and Don Nelson as well. But hey, name the coaches Lebron got fired and their circumstances for the class please
Mike Brown
David Blatt
Luke Walton
Wanted Spolestra fired but Riley refused
Frank Vogel
You can throw in Paul Silas and the winning record he had when fired.
Is that enough for you?
nash has been terrible so bombs away but i hope tsai chooses marks over kd even if that means trading him.
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To Lebron.
no it can't. It's been going on for decades in the NBA.
No one did it more frequent as him.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Whereas wade recruited both James and Bosh as FA.
Kyrie and KD decided during the season they were teaming up…
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
Bingo!
The owners have tried to get a handle on player movement in every CBA and they keep failing. All it would take is a hard cap with no maxes. Done.
oversimplifying this to a superstar thinking a coach needs to be fired is exactly what kd is trying to do - deflect this demand as a normal thing and not a colossal blame shift to distract from how bad he was in Boston.
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
But KG did pick his destination. Or maybe Wade engineered the Miami super team? But then again wasn't it really Riley? Technically, the first guys to try and create a super team via cap space were McGrady and Grant Hill 10 years prior.
Regardless, there's a million examples of players not only influencing coaching changes, but forcing their way to better situations. Putting it on LeBron is absurd.
It's a bit much, no?
He’s bluffing. However, I think that the Nets should stop playing ultra hardball and actually try to make a trade.
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
I don't subscribe to the theory the player must want to win at any cost (supposedly a virtue) -- but with the caveat it must be on the team that drafted him, without a good supporting cast, and with coaches and management that aren't very good.
Owners are ultimately responsible for sussing out guys who are buttholes. And make a judgement call if the risk is worth it.
He's an all time great. No disputing that. But he is soft AF in my opinion. He is always looking for the easy way out.
he is not qualified and never was for the job--- he also is not good at it- and clearly does not have the players respect.
Too damn bad. Durant had a good coach fired because he didn’t want to be coached and he and your other clown Kyrie hand picked Nash. I for one am ecstatic those two are suffering the the consequences of their laughable arrogance
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
You can say the same for just about any business. The workers are the backbone. That damn sure doesn’t mean they are qualified to make the business decisions.
F KD.
However, I don’t think this is an indictment of the NBA. Basketball is that rare sport when one player can make a huge difference. If you get one transcendent talent, your team becomes a championship contender immediately.
So because of that, one transcendent player can dictate where he wants to play and who he wants to play with.
However, this is BS. Durant picked his team. He picked his players. He resigned a monster contract. NOW, he wants out? This is about Durant’s character. Not the character of the league.
Marks finally gets fed up with Kyries bullshit and stooped catering to his garbage, so now he hates him. What a circus these two are…
Kyrie hates Nash and Marks - ( New Window )
Too damn bad. Durant had a good coach fired because he didn’t want to be coached and he and your other clown Kyrie hand picked Nash. I for one am ecstatic those two are suffering the the consequences of their laughable arrogance
X infinity.
The financial success of the whole operation is disproportionately on their back.
I don't subscribe to the theory the player must want to win at any cost (supposedly a virtue) -- but with the caveat it must be on the team that drafted him, without a good supporting cast, and with coaches and management that aren't very good.
Owners are ultimately responsible for sussing out guys who are buttholes. And make a judgement call if the risk is worth it.
It’s disproportionate? The stars of the league will soon be making $1m per game played, and even the mid level guys will make close to half that. They pick and choose whatever they want to do, still bitch about it after getting everything they want, and ruin franchises on their way out.
I’m all for players making every penny they can but they shouldn’t be running teams and that’s exactly what they are trying to do. There’s no consequences for them and its making for such a poor product, hard to see what’s so great about it. Fans are losing, the league is a joke.
Marks finally gets fed up with Kyries bullshit and stooped catering to his garbage, so now he hates him. What a circus these two are… Kyrie hates Nash and Marks - ( New Window )
I struggle to think of a more contemptible person in sports than Kyrie Irving.
No sport is like the NBA but star QBs do this shit too.
Nash is probably not a big time NBA HC.
I’m all for players making every penny they can but they shouldn’t be running teams and that’s exactly what they are trying to do. There’s no consequences for them and its making for such a poor product, hard to see what’s so great about it. Fans are losing, the league is a joke.
- the highest paid players make about half of what you’re describing and won’t be for a long time
- the players have been running the league for as long as you’ve probably been alive or longer, the only difference today is they’re splitting the revenue
- the owners pick who they pay, how much, and for how long — those are the consequences
These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
However, I don’t think this is an indictment of the NBA. Basketball is that rare sport when one player can make a huge difference. If you get one transcendent talent, your team becomes a championship contender immediately.
So because of that, one transcendent player can dictate where he wants to play and who he wants to play with.
However, this is BS. Durant picked his team. He picked his players. He resigned a monster contract. NOW, he wants out? This is about Durant’s character. Not the character of the league.
well said. im a nets fan and in total agreement with the above, i hope they extend marks trade kd and move on, but id 100% do it all over again the same way. in the 1 playoff series the 3 stars played together they looked unbeatable and with him and harden on 1 leg they were 1 shoe size from knocking out giannis despite an avalanche of bad luck.
just like harden i think his freak out is much more about an inability to take accountability than anything anyone else did.
Yes the league is a joke. It’s perfectly fine if you love it but asking the question back to me like I’m saying something completely foreign is strange. I don’t know anyone that takes the league seriously. More of my friends like hockey over the nba.
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
This is an extremely charitable version of events. It's fun to shit on LeBron and he definitely took it to the next level of mainstream with "the decision", but IMO, it's pretty clear KG and Allen decided to team up with Pierce first.
Here's Ainge talking about how he had to convince KG to come in the trade. - ( New Window )
Any "super" team that was built before LeBron pulled his announcement either happened organically through front offices making smart decisions and without a spectacle or there were cases like the 2004 Lakers when aging veterans who were on the verge of irrelevance tried to band together to finally win a ring. We see that model all over sports where aging stars without titles try to tag along for a title. Never before had we seen the league's best player hi-jack free agency, collude with other players and make a spectacle of it as LeBron did.
I used to really appreciate Durant's game. In OKC I actually thought I was watching a "tough" player. Then his team blows a 3-0 series lead against the best team in the league and a month later he joins them. That's Mickey Mouse stuff.
The Nets owner should tell Durant, do whatever you want but you're going nowhere. You're under contract.
Yes the league is a joke. It’s perfectly fine if you love it but asking the question back to me like I’m saying something completely foreign is strange. I don’t know anyone that takes the league seriously. More of my friends like hockey over the nba.
I get your point on games played, I missed that vs. total games.
The league is enjoying unprecedented success and popularity around the globe, so your friend group finding the current state a joke is a little anecdotal.
Just out of curiosity, when was the time the NBA wasn't a joke?
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
The numbers do not support that view at all.
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
I think guys like Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Booker, Jokic and several others are fabulous personalities and great basketball players.
Largely home grown teams have a path to a championship. The Bucks did it, the Celtics and the Suns are on the cusp.
There are handful of buttholes in the NBA, with the clout to call bigger shots. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. I don't like Lebron, KD, and Harden etc. -- but they are becoming increasingly less relevant.
I put the blame on the owners who acquiesce to butthole players.
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In comment 15775015 Heisenberg said:
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
This is an extremely charitable version of events. It's fun to shit on LeBron and he definitely took it to the next level of mainstream with "the decision", but IMO, it's pretty clear KG and Allen decided to team up with Pierce first. Here's Ainge talking about how he had to convince KG to come in the trade. - ( New Window )
That article doesn’t make that clear at all. What it makes clear is that Boston wanted Garnett, but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend. It wasn’t until Boston was able to trade for Allen that Garnett felt like they were a team capable of winning and was then willing to go there. KG wasn’t trying to team up so much as he wasn’t going to take a trade to another situation unless it was one in which he’d be able to try and win a title.
Also, I don’t remember the trio in Boston every trying to hijack the franchise. Lebron and now Durant/Kyrie pretty clearly have moved in free agency with the intent on teaming up with their buddies and then seizing control of the front office decisions.
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I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
The numbers do not support that view at all.
Can you share these numbers?
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In comment 15775015 Heisenberg said:
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
Bingo!
Pierce, KG, Allen weren't a super team? Shit, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman def were. I'm not a Lebron stan but this narrative that he's bad for the game is wrong.
When you acquire James, Durant, or Irving — is it a big surprise when they do something ridiculous or make a move for team control?
It’s not like the players can make teams sign them.
I’m a fan of guys like Leonard, Davis, George, etc. making it known where they want to play and with whom they want to play. Especially if they are willing to make less money to team up.
When management treats players like partners in the operation, it’s good for the sport.
When you acquire James, Durant, or Irving — is it a big surprise when they do something ridiculous or make a move for team control?
It’s not like the players can make teams sign them.
I’m a fan of guys like Leonard, Davis, George, etc. making it known where they want to play and with whom they want to play. Especially if they are willing to make less money to team up.
When management treats players like partners in the operation, it’s good for the sport.
You're killing this thread! Agree with everything.
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In comment 15775439 Kmed6000 said:
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I don't think the NBA is thriving like it should be and I don't think its good that the players run the league. It's a terrible experience for the fans. These guys are entertainers and they are paid handsomely to entertain the fans. Fans don't like when players bounce around every 2-3 years and create these massive super teams. It's not a good thing that they players run the league like this.
The numbers do not support that view at all.
Can you share these numbers?
In 1998, the finals ratings were 18.7 on average for the series. This year for a marquee matchup it was 6.6. Attendance is down for most teams except the few with good records.
Seems like a big cop out especially in a league that’s Star driven and very rarely can teams contend without getting the mercenaries.
So blame whoever you want, the league is what it is and it isn’t very compelling.
Can you share these numbers?
Sure. The NBA had record revenue on the 2021/2022 season in excess of 10B. The NBA had its highest regular season TV viewership last year since 2018.
The NBA related footprint and media impressions are the biggest of any sports league in the world on Instagram.
Basketball itself has the third largest global fanbase behind soccer and cricket, and the NBA had the largest self-reported fan base of any basketball league in the world by a huge margin in 2021.
LeBron was known as “the King” and famously had his mega sneaker deal before he even played one minute in the league.
After his first few years in Cleveland, I never understood the narrative that he just had to leave Cleveland because he was doomed to fail there and everyone felt so sorry for him. LeBron had already been to a finals with Cleveland before he left. Look at what Jordan had to go through. Shaq and Kobe had to experience some losing before they broke through.
The league, and LeBron and those around him all panicked because how can you have a king with no rings? “The Decision” was terrible for the sport.
Broadcast TV numbers are not how any media company or sports league in 2022 ultimately measure either popularity or financial success. It's only part of much more dynamic media environment. It's a completely different world than nearly 25 years ago.
Attendance on the other hand is typically a good leading indicator and factor to watch. Most analysts I work with caution gleaning too much data from attendance right now, as there is still a Covid impact in the behavior of in-person attendance.
The same Shaq who had been the to finals with the team he was drafted by, only to leave for the higher profile LA Lakers = )
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Shaq and Kobe had to experience some losing before they broke through.
The same Shaq who had been the to finals with the team he was drafted by, only to leave for the higher profile LA Lakers = )
Don't forget Kobe refused to play for the Hornets and wanted to be a Laker so he forced a trade there... all before ever putting on an NBA uniform
Seems like a big cop out especially in a league that’s Star driven and very rarely can teams contend without getting the mercenaries.
So blame whoever you want, the league is what it is and it isn’t very compelling.
Teams make a choice to do business with unpredictable players. Doing business with Lebron James gives and it takes. He has after all delivered a championship to every team with whom he's played.
How do you define mercenary? The 2022 Warriors were largely a home grown core, with the exception of Wiggins. The Celtics the same. The 2021 Bucks and Suns the same, with exception of an aging Chris Paul.
The Vegas odds right now are Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State, Clippers, Suns -- in that order. The only team headlined by veteran acquisitions is LA.
But they also can't let Marks go because KD wants them to. He's a good GM and those are hard to find. If you let him go you risk whoever your next hire is royally screwing up like past regimes and setting the team back many years.
The best bet imo is to move him for Jaylen Brown if indeed that offer is on the table, even if it doesn't come with more than 1 pick and Derrick White instead of Jaylen Brown. That's still better than any other reported offers and it's unlikely that there's a surprise team/offer out there that would beat it for the Nets current situation.
A Brown/Simmons led team isn't a championship contender but it's probably a playoff team, assuming Simmons looks like the player he was in Philly and hasn't fallen off a cliff. There just isn't another guy available where that would the case.
That’s a fair deal for KD.
That’s a fair deal for KD.
That was their rumored offer, although pick protection wasn't specified. Apparently the Nets declined and asked for Brown, Smart, multiple picks and another rotation player. That tells me they weren't serious about actually moving him but this recent news might change things.
Oh I definitely agree with you there. The Celtics have a good young core that made the finals last year and got better this offseason. In the best case scenario they're compressing their title window to the next few years. In the worst case scenario, things go south quickly and they're screwed for a few years. Boston also isn't an organization that's going to bend over backwards to make him happy (and it's Tatum's team anyways) so there's a risk he has another temper tantrum and forces his way elsewhere.
Far from it. A Brown, White, Simmons, Irving core probably wins a playoff series.
Yeah, it's a similar situation to the one with Dejounte Murray. Spurs didn't want to risk losing him for nothing so they dealt him
Larry Bird didn't do it. I wonder why. Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Boston made all the right moves early on in his career now could it.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
But they also can't let Marks go because KD wants them to. He's a good GM and those are hard to find. If you let him go you risk whoever your next hire is royally screwing up like past regimes and setting the team back many years.
The best bet imo is to move him for Jaylen Brown if indeed that offer is on the table, even if it doesn't come with more than 1 pick and Derrick White instead of Jaylen Brown. That's still better than any other reported offers and it's unlikely that there's a surprise team/offer out there that would beat it for the Nets current situation.
A Brown/Simmons led team isn't a championship contender but it's probably a playoff team, assuming Simmons looks like the player he was in Philly and hasn't fallen off a cliff. There just isn't another guy available where that would the case.
Make him sit. That is how you regain control of the league. Durant signed a four year deal last year, he freely entered into it. If the Nets can’t get anything remote to his value, Tsai is in a better position to take the loss than KD. These are his last years. He is bound by four years. Tsai will always be a multi billionaire whether or not he trades KD or not.
I realize I’m no longer their target audience. But that’s a shame, because I was a die hard NBA fan for 20 years. I won’t put it all on LeBron but he’s responsible for it more than anyone else, by a wide margin.
so the league was geared more towards adults in the past but now? How so?
The big man era? Which consisted of (what most would call) boring low post play? And if you enjoy really enjoy skilled big men, how can you not be fascinated by Giannis or Jokic?
Was it not a clown show for much of the 90s and early 2000s when you had mercurial stars and high profile players like Webber, DC, Sheed, Iverson, Steve Francis, Marbury, Carter, etc.?
Were you really a die hard fan for 20 years? If so, how did you engage with the product? Were you watching a favorite team night after night and now you don't?
It sure seems like most of what you dislike about the modern game has been a part of the league for a LONG time. You just weren't aware of it - which is probably the same reason the strong points of the modern game elude you.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
supposedly Barnes is off the table. If there's a deal with the Raptors, it likely involves two players from the Siakam/FVV/Trent/OG foursome - and then picks. Which is a pretty good haul IMO.
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i'd have preferred it with ayton, but bridges and cam johnson signed for 4 years plus a bunch of good picks (since CP3/KD are the ages they are) is a very solid deal.
the nets will actually probably own their own pick this year for the only time in the next 5+ so if there's a year to be in the lotto this is it.
for the Suns that seems like an obvious deal. Bridges is a great role player but their window is now with CP3 and KD makes them a legitimate favorite.
Brown over Bridges as a main piece leans Brown on the court but it's arguable given the contract situations. Boston's picks are worth less but if they came anywhere close to the picks Phoenix could offer I'd take that, but i doubt they would.
Toronto lurking with Barnes is interesting but who knows if KD would be enthusiastic about going there.
supposedly Barnes is off the table. If there's a deal with the Raptors, it likely involves two players from the Siakam/FVV/Trent/OG foursome - and then picks. Which is a pretty good haul IMO.
Don't think either Barnes or Siakam would be on the table because the goal would be to pair Durant with those two + FVV. Probably still one of the better packages though given the number of picks they can offer and OG is a nice young player.
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These are glory years for the NBA. The league is recruiting and showcasing the best talent from around the globe. At no other time has the talent pool been as deep and successful. The last two championship series have been phenomenal. The league is brimming with young stars. The veteran stars are defying age.
And the league is a joke because a handful of star players don’t like their coach or the team they signed with?
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
Those were great years no doubt about. The best decades of basketball were the 60s, late 80s/early 90s, and 20s.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
that's my sense since they cheered when he got hurt but who knows.
i think the toronto people who think putting barnes on the table is nuts are nuts. he's a good player but winning ROY is far from a guarantee for anything, i think you have to go back to KD for the last ROY who won an MVP. Barnes is a nice player but i'd bet against him ever getting an MVP vote over his career let alone winning one. KD + keeping Siakam, FVV, OG would give the Raps a legitimate shot at a championship for at least 2 years. They gave up Poetl, Derozan, and a pick for 1 year of Kawhi.
but regardless even with Barnes on the table im not sure that offer is better than a phoenix offer with more futures and a very solid player in Bridges or a Boston offer around Brown. i dont think it's a guarantee Barnes ends up better than Brown (though the extra years of control are a big value).
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In comment 15775022 Kmed6000 said:
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In comment 15775015 Heisenberg said:
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It's grown from there. The empowerment of these star players is inevitable over time because in the NBA star players have more effect on the outcome of games. remember, these players have capped salaries. Is there any other sport that does that? Why shouldn't they take these capped salaries and then try to engineer the best situation for themselves. If they uncapped the maxes, super teams would end because these guys could get paid just their market value and most teams could only afford one of these top ten superstars because they'd get paid double what they do today.
/end defense of player empowerment
that said, LOL fuck the Nets and KD. They deserve each other.
Disagree. Lebron started this "movement"(no pun intended). The Celtics had Pierce and traded for KG and Allen. Lebron engineered the superteam in Miami and it's set the NBA in a tailspin ever since.
This is an extremely charitable version of events. It's fun to shit on LeBron and he definitely took it to the next level of mainstream with "the decision", but IMO, it's pretty clear KG and Allen decided to team up with Pierce first. Here's Ainge talking about how he had to convince KG to come in the trade. - ( New Window )
That article doesn’t make that clear at all. What it makes clear is that Boston wanted Garnett, but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend. It wasn’t until Boston was able to trade for Allen that Garnett felt like they were a team capable of winning and was then willing to go there. KG wasn’t trying to team up so much as he wasn’t going to take a trade to another situation unless it was one in which he’d be able to try and win a title.
Also, I don’t remember the trio in Boston every trying to hijack the franchise. Lebron and now Durant/Kyrie pretty clearly have moved in free agency with the intent on teaming up with their buddies and then seizing control of the front office decisions.
Again, I'm not saying it's the same as what Kyrie and KD have pulled here or LeBron has pulled a few times. It's not. I'm saying this is the beginning of the change that has led to what we're seeing here. And there's a real low distinction between "but he was hesitant to approve a trade to a team that he didn’t think could contend" and stars picking their teammates. He approved the trade once Ainge told him he could also get Allen. Credit to Ainge for having the vision to see it and pull it off.
I thought the LBJ move to Miami was weak AF in the moment. I still do.
But KD going to the Warriors, after they won 73 games & had just lost the Finals in 7...that weakness will be tough to top.
I don’t like this version of the NBA. Nothing you say will change that. I’m eager to come back though so hopefully the things I dont like about it will wane in time.
They get drafted into four years of team control, with only two years of guaranteed money. These are word class athletes, who are the product and the face of the league. When the time comes to choose their circumstances, they deserve the right to pick.
There are a few annoying apples out there. And that might actually just be Lebron and Durant. Those two don’t define the league.
The face of the league is Curry, who is the perfect player. Great personality, loyal AF to GSW, revolutionized the game, and just keeps winning. The future of the game is Booker, Joker, Tatum, and Giannis — who are all great personalities on and off the court.
Lebron James is just some guy who used to be the best, who’s angling for his post-NBA career. KD is just some guy, who’s well, just some guy.
They should seriously do this. Tell him, if you want to dictate front office decisions and shift blame, then you can be the player coach and have to answer for the team every night
Where do talks stand? seemed like we were getting close..
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By labor day
Where do talks stand? seemed like we were getting close..
Probably around the same as they were when the Utah reporter made the comment. Ainge is trying to make Leon blink
And Im not a Nets fan. So that is an outsider perspective.
Glory years? The '80s and most of the '90s were the glory years. The NBA exploded thanks to Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Over their six NBA championships, the Jordan Bulls averaged over 25M viewers.
The finals in the '80s of either Lakers, Celtics, Pistons averaged, after the NBA started showing the finals live, 23M+ viewers.
These "glory days" you reference aren't even close to those numbers.
The last five years, for example, the average has been about 12M+.
Those were great years no doubt about. The best decades of basketball were the 60s, late 80s/early 90s, and 20s.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The NBA's popularity was getting attraction globally in the '80s. And then the '92 Dream Team came along, and the global interest just spiked after the Barcelona Olympics.
So, I am feeling pretty good that if today's viewing options existed back then, the numbers would have been even more enormous. By that time, Jordan was probably more recognizable worldwide than Ali.
Obviously, I can't prove it, but I think there are good reasons to believe so...
Yeah, no rush. It is still August 9th.
I love the NBA though. And it is really bursting with talent nowadays.
The problem comes when the player thinks he runs the entire team and franchise it undermines the coach and GM..
The problem comes when the player thinks he runs the entire team and franchise it undermines the coach and GM..
there's no best way. the heat got a few rings out of lebron but it ended badly. gs got a few rings out of kd, it ended badly. in the nba you get the best players you can and hope it doesnt blow up.
being in LA or having all time greats like riley/phil slightly improve the odds but there will probably never be another tim duncan.
i do think adam silver is going to try to give teams more power in the next cba but good luck figuring that out.
Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The 80s and 90s did not have viewing options as people today have between social media outlets. The game today has so much exposure and the numbers should be higher. The talent today is greater than its ever been but it doesn’t connect to the people like 80s/90s basketball did. I am not going to get into all the reasons why…
But I think the physicality of the game being way down is the number 1 reason the play isn’t as good. It’s like watching street ball with more talented players. It just doesn’t connect with the 40 and over crowd.
no disagreement here. i just dont know what anyone can do if a player is so willing burn a team down.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
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are the teams that allow their stars to habe a say and recruit other players but also know that the GM and Coach run the team..
The problem comes when the player thinks he runs the entire team and franchise it undermines the coach and GM..
there's no best way. the heat got a few rings out of lebron but it ended badly. gs got a few rings out of kd, it ended badly. in the nba you get the best players you can and hope it doesnt blow up.
being in LA or having all time greats like riley/phil slightly improve the odds but there will probably never be another tim duncan.
i do think adam silver is going to try to give teams more power in the next cba but good luck figuring that out.
Rarely does it end perfectly, but to win a ship the best way his to gice thosr players a say and work in tandem with the Gm and Coach eventually yes it blows up but there cant be a fight between stars and front office
i think they will take a deal in the next week or so, extend marks, and move on. the rumored boston deal (which was supposedly discussed like 6 weeks ago) was already close. somebody will come in a little higher and then kyrie will get dealt to la.
I've said it before...if I'm the Cs, I'm not trading Brown for KD. Insane as that might sound.
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Measuring interest and popularity by domestic TV numbers is an incomplete analysis. Basketball and the NBA at large draws eyeballs and engagement across the globe in so many different ways now.
The 80s and 90s did not have viewing options as people today have between social media outlets. The game today has so much exposure and the numbers should be higher.
The flip side to that is people didn't have infinite choices and access to entertainment in the 80/90s.
Media companies don't measure the success and popularity of their product in these terms any longer.
I'm a perfect example. I'm 40, big NBA fan, grew up with a Kevin McHale poster in my room.
Fifteen years ago I'd catch probably the majority of 40 NBA games, and some portion of the at least another 20.
Today, given the choice to watch an NBA game in February, or watch Netflix and breeze through the truncated version of the game in 10 mins in the morning, I'm probably choosing Netflix.
I also lean towards the players on most of these issues but agree this one is way out there.
Btw, a lot of kids in their teens and 20s watch more for individual players than teams. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and while I will always be die-hard Knicks, it is fun to appreciate the greatness of players on other teams (as long as they're not torturing the Knicks a la MJ).
The weird thing to me is what happens when said player retires. But I guess he'll just gravitate towards someone else.
I'm old school. I root for the jersey, though there are occasions where I'll root for another team as long as it doesn't impact the Giants/Knicks, ala Tuck when he was a Raider.
The whole thing is so strange to me.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
The Durant thing may be an outlier but it’s literally what this thread was about. Yet you went right into your “I love this player empowerment stuff!”.
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
I love KD as a player. He is amazing. But the dude comes across soft AF.
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
The problem with this is that Durant WANTS to appear as powerful and in control. It’s incredibly important to him. So he’ll no he’s not keeping it quiet. He doesn’t give a damn about the Nets. They mean less than nothing to him
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keep it quiet, you want out? fine but dont leak it to Woj so the whole world knows you want out..
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
The problem with this is that Durant WANTS to appear as powerful and in control. It’s incredibly important to him. So he’ll no he’s not keeping it quiet. He doesn’t give a damn about the Nets. They mean less than nothing to him
But if you really want out, coming out publicly kills all leverage, if you keep it quoet he is probably already traded
Tell the Nets, eventually yes it may get leaked but there are ways to keep those talks quiet
My issue is he signed that extension just last summer. He has no leverage. Such a bad look for Durant.
I love KD as a player. He is amazing. But the dude comes across soft AF.
He is completely soft, every move he has made in his career is because he is soft..
I love KD as a player. He is amazing. But the dude comes across soft AF.
Durant is perpetually unhappy and a chronic bellyacher.
He was with a terrific team at OKC but couldn't make it work. So, he bailed for Golden State. He won titles with GS and played with a good group of guys. But he couldn't make that work. So, he bailed for the Brooklyn to play with one of his best friends, Irving. And now he's been able to make that work.
I have a hard time putting him in the top twenty...because I'm holding this Nets debacle against him.
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I'm not sure how Silver can empower teams more.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
The Durant thing may be an outlier but it’s literally what this thread was about. Yet you went right into your “I love this player empowerment stuff!”.
I absolutely love players having the reigns. I was responding to the posts bemoaning Durant as evidence the league was terrible. It's not.
I'm 100% right. You must have missed the rest of my first post.
What the league can never take away is stars being willing to take less money to play with their friends, and stars being willing to take the risk of shorter contracts to maintain control.
This Durant thing is a bit of an outlier. There aren't many examples of super star signing a four year deal, then complaining their way out.
Anthony Davis did it just a couple of years ago, so it isn’t that much of an outlier.
I think KD realizes he has no leverage (unlike AD when he held out, KD is 34 and can’t afford to play his bluff by holding out), and is making these demands to try and force the Nets’ hands.
As Hollinger notes in today’s Atlantic, the Nets best bet may be to wait until mid season, when this summer’s FA’s can be dealt. Then revisit the PHO offer with Ayton. Nets should be in no hurry to deal him, they hold the upper hand.