That was somewhat of a contentious issue that summer, if memory serves me right. The Giants were-I believe-last in the league in kick returning yardage in '97 so Fassel was trying to get something going on there, but I remember not being a fan of putting Sehorn-who was an absolute stud in '96 & '97-as a KR & had an uneasy feeling that this was going to blow up in Fassel's face. And sure enough...the preseason game vs. the Jets...Sehorn tears his ACL & his career was never the same. He was on the cusp of superstardom & it was gone just like that. That said, his pick vs. the Eagles in the '00 playoffs is still UFB/an all time great INT
Hopping into a time machine...what were your thoughts on it prior to the injury? For Sehorn returning kicks? Against it?
So, even if there was some correlation between experience returning kicks and knee injuries, it is not relevant for Sehorn.
Other arguments could make sense (I don't buy them, but it's an opinion) but not that lack of experience argument.
A stupid practice game? C'mon.
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In comment 15776089 Chip said:
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and let him return kicks or punts. It's just stupid.
It was preseason. That’s the issue in my opinion. If they put him out there in week 10 when the division is on the line I’d have no problem with it.
But it goes both ways: either the lack of practice reps is the issue, in which case having some preseason return reps would address that; or the lack of practice reps isn't an issue at all in the first place. Besides, we've seen what happens when a coach approaches preseason games with bubble wrap (Joe Judge).
It was just unlucky. It wasn't a bad decision. It wasn't a bad idea. It was just unlucky. And if Sehorn's knee was about to give out anyway (I don't know if it would have or not, but I know that for my knee, my ACL was frayed before it finally tore), it would have happened on defense instead.
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
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KR yards is basically useless stat nowadays. Put anyone back there
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
Look at the stats from last year. The Jets were #1, lol. Rams were 27th. It doesn't lead to wins
https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoff-returns/2021/reg/all
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In comment 15776539 uther99 said:
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KR yards is basically useless stat nowadays. Put anyone back there
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
Look at the stats from last year. The Jets were #1, lol. Rams were 27th. It doesn't lead to wins
https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoff-returns/2021/reg/all
It's the starting field position that matters. The return yardage is part of that, but it's not all of it. For example, if the Jets were returning kicks that were a few yards deep into their own end zone, they could have the best average KR yardage and still have a poor starting field position. Conversely, the Rams' returners might be instructed to only return kicks that are well short of the goal line, and therefore have a shorter average kick return but don't end up in an unfavorable starting field position. And sure enough, the Rams did have a slightly better average starting field position than the Jets in 2021 (link below).
The field position is what matters, and those yards count the same whether they come via offense, defense, or special teams. Today's NFL encourages teams to not bother returning kickoffs because it's hard to do much better than what a touchback gives you, but in the instances where a team does have to return a kickoff, the KR yardage is not meaningless.
Link - ( New Window )
Every Sehorn interception - ( New Window )
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In comment 15776544 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15776539 uther99 said:
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KR yards is basically useless stat nowadays. Put anyone back there
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
Look at the stats from last year. The Jets were #1, lol. Rams were 27th. It doesn't lead to wins
https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoff-returns/2021/reg/all
It's the starting field position that matters. The return yardage is part of that, but it's not all of it. For example, if the Jets were returning kicks that were a few yards deep into their own end zone, they could have the best average KR yardage and still have a poor starting field position. Conversely, the Rams' returners might be instructed to only return kicks that are well short of the goal line, and therefore have a shorter average kick return but don't end up in an unfavorable starting field position. And sure enough, the Rams did have a slightly better average starting field position than the Jets in 2021 (link below).
The field position is what matters, and those yards count the same whether they come via offense, defense, or special teams. Today's NFL encourages teams to not bother returning kickoffs because it's hard to do much better than what a touchback gives you, but in the instances where a team does have to return a kickoff, the KR yardage is not meaningless. Link - ( New Window )
So 6 yards separate the #1 team and the #32 team in field position? Seems pretty meaningless.
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In comment 15776690 uther99 said:
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In comment 15776544 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15776539 uther99 said:
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KR yards is basically useless stat nowadays. Put anyone back there
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
Look at the stats from last year. The Jets were #1, lol. Rams were 27th. It doesn't lead to wins
https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoff-returns/2021/reg/all
It's the starting field position that matters. The return yardage is part of that, but it's not all of it. For example, if the Jets were returning kicks that were a few yards deep into their own end zone, they could have the best average KR yardage and still have a poor starting field position. Conversely, the Rams' returners might be instructed to only return kicks that are well short of the goal line, and therefore have a shorter average kick return but don't end up in an unfavorable starting field position. And sure enough, the Rams did have a slightly better average starting field position than the Jets in 2021 (link below).
The field position is what matters, and those yards count the same whether they come via offense, defense, or special teams. Today's NFL encourages teams to not bother returning kickoffs because it's hard to do much better than what a touchback gives you, but in the instances where a team does have to return a kickoff, the KR yardage is not meaningless. Link - ( New Window )
So 6 yards separate the #1 team and the #32 team in field position? Seems pretty meaningless.
The value of the yards doesn't change because of the distribution of the data.
I'm sure if an NFL team tossed you out there as a return specialist, they could achieve a much worse starting field position and you'd see the impact. But because the data is more densely distributed, there isn't much differentiation to examine.
Again, that's the result of touchbacks becoming the predominant outcome for kickoffs, but says absolutely nothing about the yardage itself being less valuable.
In order to score a TD, you have to go 100 yards minus whatever your starting field position was. The better your starting field position, the fewer yards you need to cover each possession in order for it to result in a touchdown (100-FP). Having to go fewer yards to score is an advantage for any offense and a disadvantage for any defense.
Does that mean that field position alone is the sole deciding factor in determining the winner of any football game? Of course not. Good field position will not make a bad offense (like the 2021 Giants) transform into a good offense. But it will still result in more points for that bad offense over a length of time, which, fundamentally, will result in more wins. Enough to make a bad team good (or the reverse)? No. But you could isolate several significant parts of a football team and say the same thing. However, eventually, if you ignore enough of them, you'll simply have a bad football team.
This isn't especially complicated. So are you naturally dense, or just being intentionally obtuse?
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In comment 15776728 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15776690 uther99 said:
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In comment 15776544 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15776539 uther99 said:
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KR yards is basically useless stat nowadays. Put anyone back there
That's not true at all. What are you basing the idea that "[kick return] yards is [sic] [a] basically useless stat nowadays" on? Field position still matters. The kick return yards count for your field position. They matter just the same as a rushing yard or a receiving yard. They matter the same as a sack or a TFL.
The yards matter. It's the opportunity to accumulate those yards that has changed as the game has evolved to encourage more touchbacks. But for the kicks you do return, you're still better off having a good returner who can get you more yards (or better yet, score).
Look at the stats from last year. The Jets were #1, lol. Rams were 27th. It doesn't lead to wins
https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoff-returns/2021/reg/all
It's the starting field position that matters. The return yardage is part of that, but it's not all of it. For example, if the Jets were returning kicks that were a few yards deep into their own end zone, they could have the best average KR yardage and still have a poor starting field position. Conversely, the Rams' returners might be instructed to only return kicks that are well short of the goal line, and therefore have a shorter average kick return but don't end up in an unfavorable starting field position. And sure enough, the Rams did have a slightly better average starting field position than the Jets in 2021 (link below).
The field position is what matters, and those yards count the same whether they come via offense, defense, or special teams. Today's NFL encourages teams to not bother returning kickoffs because it's hard to do much better than what a touchback gives you, but in the instances where a team does have to return a kickoff, the KR yardage is not meaningless. Link - ( New Window )
So 6 yards separate the #1 team and the #32 team in field position? Seems pretty meaningless.
The value of the yards doesn't change because of the distribution of the data.
I'm sure if an NFL team tossed you out there as a return specialist, they could achieve a much worse starting field position and you'd see the impact. But because the data is more densely distributed, there isn't much differentiation to examine.
Again, that's the result of touchbacks becoming the predominant outcome for kickoffs, but says absolutely nothing about the yardage itself being less valuable.
In order to score a TD, you have to go 100 yards minus whatever your starting field position was. The better your starting field position, the fewer yards you need to cover each possession in order for it to result in a touchdown (100-FP). Having to go fewer yards to score is an advantage for any offense and a disadvantage for any defense.
Does that mean that field position alone is the sole deciding factor in determining the winner of any football game? Of course not. Good field position will not make a bad offense (like the 2021 Giants) transform into a good offense. But it will still result in more points for that bad offense over a length of time, which, fundamentally, will result in more wins. Enough to make a bad team good (or the reverse)? No. But you could isolate several significant parts of a football team and say the same thing. However, eventually, if you ignore enough of them, you'll simply have a bad football team.
This isn't especially complicated. So are you naturally dense, or just being intentionally obtuse?
I see what both of you are saying. Perhaps saying the kick return aspect of pro football does not impact the game the way it used to. Getting the ball at the 25 is hard to pass up. On the other hand if you have an undisciplined returner that passes up the TB then that can certainly hurt the team.
Now, do the exact same thing, except for one of those teams, they start every offensive possession at their own 28 yard line. And the other team, which is otherwise identical, starts every offensive possession at their own 22 yard line.
With no other factors changing in the matchup, do you think it's still a 50/50 W/L probability for each team? Or has the win probability increased for the team that starts every drive with a +6 yard advantage in field position?