Watching Dabs speak after the game I couldn't help think "this is the guy who's going to return the Giants to respectability."
Reminded a bit of last season, around this time, I really thought Abrams + Judge were going to be the winning combo to lead the team out of the dark ages. Yikes -- that didn't age well.
So what was your worst take?
Terrible Observation - (
New Window )
While he did wind up causing Mara to rip apart the front office, it was because of the exact opposite reason I was hoping for.
Same. Judge had me fooled big time.
I was foole into thinking Gettleman was making personnel decisions. But clearly no one that handsome could be so wrong.
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Years ago I was wrong about Gilbride. I used to lay much blame at his feet. Turns out, he was an outstanding OC.
That's why as much as I like what I've seen and heard from Daboll to this point, I've got to remind myself to not get ahead of things.
That's why as much as I like what I've seen and heard from Daboll to this point, I've got to remind myself to not get ahead of things.
Yep, Learning isn’t always easy. I’m with ya, trying to learn from the past experience.
in my defense however ive wanted them to bring in callahan to coach to OL for almost a decade and had they done so maybe a lot of things go differently.
Oops
Gettleman began to lose me when he picked Barkley, and then ignored the offensive line last season
But my nomination is Golladay. At the time, I hated the signing at the price but I thought he would contribute something on the field. He and Solder mark the epitome of DG reaches, fill a positional need at any cost when the rest of your drafting and roster construction have gone to sh_t.
:- )
:- )
Lol no coincidence -- when perusing the archives for said thread I found that very embarrassing post of mine.
RE: Dabs & Schoen I'm very much in trust but verify mode.
i think judge was mostly the victim of 1 fatal flaw - he knew nothing about offense. which is a pretty big fatal flaw. many teams have successfully hired non-OC head coaches so it's not like this was a total unknown but put simply he didn't know what he didn't know, and nobody else did either. though there were a few in the giants org with the experience to have known better.
the rest is kind of noise because i do think a lot of the players liked judge and he did have some minor successes year 1. a bunch of pretty good FAs agreed to come play for him. until he got exposed for how little he knew about offense midway through year 2. that was the emperor has no clothes moment.
On the other hand, I hated Gettleman from Day 1, maybe earlier.
im not sure that's the case - if it was i think we would have seen him take a different job instead of participating in this season of Survivor: New England OC.
i think he went back to belichek because he knows it's a big gap in his knowledge base that he wants to fill before taking another job.
I never was a Judge believer. Don't care for Belichick/Saban disciples honestly. He was way over his head and set up for failure with Gettleman at the helm.
But I thought the team was playing hard for Judge, and would play smart and be prepared.
The Denver game to start the season was a real slap to the face.
The guy just went downhill right after week 1 2020.
Denver week 1 21 was so similar to week 1 2017 Dallas (mcadoo)
CFB will definitely be his quickest route back if that's what he wants. He could probably get a CFB job at a 2nd tier SEC school or non-top tier P5 school any year. If Leach doesn't work out MSU still makes a ton of sense.
Quote:
Eric -- my guess is one step further. I think Judge *believes* he should be leading an offense. He coached the WRs, he was a pretty good high school QB, back up at an SEC school where he was academic all American.
im not sure that's the case - if it was i think we would have seen him take a different job instead of participating in this season of Survivor: New England OC.
i think he went back to belichek because he knows it's a big gap in his knowledge base that he wants to fill before taking another job.
This is as close to leading an offense as he's going to get at this stage. You think someone was hiring him as an OC?
I think we are saying the same thing in some respects. Judge knows he has a big gap in his skillset as an offensive leader, and his path back to head coaching requires he be loads better at it.
it's arguable that he did improve the situation. his drafts were a step in the right direction and they featured mostly players from teams with his former colleagues/assistant coaches he hired (Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari, Robinson, etc).
And obviously it's highly likely he influenced the trade that ended up returning Thibodeaux.
Without that extra top 10 pick who knows how appealing this job would have been to schoen (and therefore daboll)?
A Ryan Poles/Brian Flores combination or the 49ers guy + McDaniel were probably real possibilities. Not that Schoen/Dabs necessarily have any better odds of succeeding at this point, but we clearly at least got our pick.
I thought Mara was so stuck in the Giants Way that he would continue to promote those who had been fully indoctrinated.
Quote:
In comment 15780411 christian said:
Quote:
Eric -- my guess is one step further. I think Judge *believes* he should be leading an offense. He coached the WRs, he was a pretty good high school QB, back up at an SEC school where he was academic all American.
im not sure that's the case - if it was i think we would have seen him take a different job instead of participating in this season of Survivor: New England OC.
i think he went back to belichek because he knows it's a big gap in his knowledge base that he wants to fill before taking another job.
This is as close to leading an offense as he's going to get at this stage. You think someone was hiring him as an OC?
I think we are saying the same thing in some respects. Judge knows he has a big gap in his skillset as an offensive leader, and his path back to head coaching requires he be loads better at it.
i dont know what opportunities he had but i think generally there is almost always a role with more responsibility available somewhere in CFB than the NFL. A lot more teams and job openings. Anything he does in NE will maybe check some more boxes but i don't it will get him another shot in the NFL until he does something outside of Belichek's shadow (which is most likely to happen at a second tier p5 school).
I thought Mara was so stuck in the Giants Way that he would continue to promote those who had been fully indoctrinated.
the good thing about bw posts is that you can recycle your own posts because his logic gaps never change.
Eric on Li : mute : 8/29/2021 4:37 pm : link
and let's try to keep to franchises/owners who have had to actively do so within the last 2 decades (everyone other than the Pats).
PIT and BAL are the first 2 that come to mind for me
Eric on Li : mute : 8/29/2021 4:46 pm : link
but there's not a ton to learn there because the bulk of their hires have been internal with the exception of Baltimore hiring Harbough, and if memory serves when they hired Harbaugh they really wanted to hire Garrett but Dallas denied permission. But Decosta and Colbert have each been in those organizations for 2 decades+.
Quote:
Not that I expected greatness but figured he would improve the situation. And he didn’t and became basically a joke last season.
it's arguable that he did improve the situation. his drafts were a step in the right direction and they featured mostly players from teams with his former colleagues/assistant coaches he hired (Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari, Robinson, etc).
And obviously it's highly likely he influenced the trade that ended up returning Thibodeaux.
Without that extra top 10 pick who knows how appealing this job would have been to schoen (and therefore daboll)?
A Ryan Poles/Brian Flores combination or the 49ers guy + McDaniel were probably real possibilities. Not that Schoen/Dabs necessarily have any better odds of succeeding at this point, but we clearly at least got our pick.
Drafts were marginally better. Don’t get yourself all that excited.
The best thing Judge did was allow the team to fall apart in the end and force the owners to blow it all up by getting rid of him along with most of the front office leadership by hiring through a credible GM search process.
I agree he needs to branch out from Belichick. But QB coach and defacto OC (if that's what he gets) isn't a low responsibility gig.
My guess is he does this for 1-2 years, and either gets a P5 HC gig or OC gig at one of the elite P5 schools.
Quote:
i dont know what opportunities he had but i think generally there is almost always a role with more responsibility available somewhere in CFB than the NFL. A lot more teams and job openings. Anything he does in NE will maybe check some more boxes but i don't it will get him another shot in the NFL until he does something outside of Belichek's shadow (which is most likely to happen at a second tier p5 school).
I agree he needs to branch out from Belichick. But QB coach and defacto OC (if that's what he gets) isn't a low responsibility gig.
My guess is he does this for 1-2 years, and either gets a P5 HC gig or OC gig at one of the elite P5 schools.
he didn't take the job as defacto OC though, he clearly knew he'd be auditioning with Patricia. he may not have had any other options in CFB beyond doing something similar at Bama this year though because of the timing of when he was fired being beyond when most CFB jobs had already been filled. There was probably a job on Napier's staff for him but that ship doesn't appear to be headed in the right direction.
As a side note what the heck is Judge doing calling plays again? I guess bellichek is being nice and letting him redeem himself for the qb sneak thing?
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Bruce, he has never been the best RB in the NFL even his rookie year and when he's been on the field after his rookie year he has at best been JAG. And JAG is likely being kind. He has so many warts that go beyond injury.
Quote:
that the baton was going to be passed from Gettleman to Abrams.
I thought Mara was so stuck in the Giants Way that he would continue to promote those who had been fully indoctrinated.
the good thing about bw posts is that you can recycle your own posts because his logic gaps never change.
Quote:
honest question - which owner/franchise is best at hiring GM/coaches?
Eric on Li : mute : 8/29/2021 4:37 pm : link
and let's try to keep to franchises/owners who have had to actively do so within the last 2 decades (everyone other than the Pats).
PIT and BAL are the first 2 that come to mind for me
Eric on Li : mute : 8/29/2021 4:46 pm : link
but there's not a ton to learn there because the bulk of their hires have been internal with the exception of Baltimore hiring Harbough, and if memory serves when they hired Harbaugh they really wanted to hire Garrett but Dallas denied permission. But Decosta and Colbert have each been in those organizations for 2 decades+.
Is there a link for more context?
Otherwise, this appears to be you having another self-congratulatory moment about something.
I agree he needs to branch out from Belichick. But QB coach and defacto OC (if that's what he gets) isn't a low responsibility gig.
My guess is he does this for 1-2 years, and either gets a P5 HC gig or OC gig at one of the elite P5 schools.
he didn't take the job as defacto OC though, he clearly knew he'd be auditioning with Patricia. he may not have had any other options in CFB beyond doing something similar at Bama this year though because of the timing of when he was fired being beyond when most CFB jobs had already been filled. There was probably a job on Napier's staff for him but that ship doesn't appear to be headed in the right direction.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. On one hand you're saying:
there is almost always a role with more responsibility available somewhere in CFB than the NFL
and then on the other:
he may not have had any other options in CFB beyond doing something similar at Bama this year though because of the timing of when he was fired being beyond when most CFB jobs had already been filled
The very simple point I am making is QB coach with a chance to be defacto OC for an NFL team isn't a low responsibility gig. And for a guy who had a gap in his skillset in leading an offense, it's the type of stepping stone he needs to take if he's going to be a HC who has input on the offense.
this year however that wasn't possible simply because of timing. he got fired january 11th when most CFB jobs were filled.
My humility knows now bounds my friend!
Quote:
In comment 15780364 Anakim said:
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Bruce, he has never been the best RB in the NFL even his rookie year and when he's been on the field after his rookie year he has at best been JAG. And JAG is likely being kind. He has so many warts that go beyond injury.
Disagree buddy. His first year he was clearly the best all-around back in the league despite sucking at blocking, imv..
His subsequent years? Of course he was JAG. He performed on one leg or was out for the year. Last year he tried valiently on a recently repaired ACL but was average.
Again, if his speed is back along with his confidence, he will be right up there imo, esp. with what Daboll APPEARS to have in store for him
Me too. I was very high on Judge. He was very clearly way over his head as a head coach.
I cannot find the thread but I have a certain memory for my own comments and turns of phrase, so I'll indulge:
"Joe Judge is, in the scheme of things, a low-level employee: a first year head coach with no track record of success, whose lack of expertise in either offense or defense temporarily allows him to escape blame for the failings of either. We'll see how long that lasts."
As it turned out, not very long.
Quote:
In comment 15780371 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15780364 Anakim said:
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Bruce, he has never been the best RB in the NFL even his rookie year and when he's been on the field after his rookie year he has at best been JAG. And JAG is likely being kind. He has so many warts that go beyond injury.
Disagree buddy. His first year he was clearly the best all-around back in the league despite sucking at blocking, imv..
His subsequent years? Of course he was JAG. He performed on one leg or was out for the year. Last year he tried valiently on a recently repaired ACL but was average.
Again, if his speed is back along with his confidence, he will be right up there imo, esp. with what Daboll APPEARS to have in store for him
“Best all around back in the league, despite sucking at blocking” this is up there with “Leonard Williams is better than Aaron Donald” in terms of LOL homer takes
Quote:
In comment 15780467 Mook80 said:
Quote:
In comment 15780371 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15780364 Anakim said:
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Bruce, he has never been the best RB in the NFL even his rookie year and when he's been on the field after his rookie year he has at best been JAG. And JAG is likely being kind. He has so many warts that go beyond injury.
Disagree buddy. His first year he was clearly the best all-around back in the league despite sucking at blocking, imv..
His subsequent years? Of course he was JAG. He performed on one leg or was out for the year. Last year he tried valiently on a recently repaired ACL but was average.
Again, if his speed is back along with his confidence, he will be right up there imo, esp. with what Daboll APPEARS to have in store for him
“Best all around back in the league, despite sucking at blocking” this is up there with “Leonard Williams is better than Aaron Donald” in terms of LOL homer takes
Shit il Ned. You’re useless
Quote:
i dont know what opportunities he had but i think generally there is almost always a role with more responsibility available somewhere in CFB than the NFL. A lot more teams and job openings. Anything he does in NE will maybe check some more boxes but i don't it will get him another shot in the NFL until he does something outside of Belichek's shadow (which is most likely to happen at a second tier p5 school).
I agree he needs to branch out from Belichick. But QB coach and defacto OC (if that's what he gets) isn't a low responsibility gig.
My guess is he does this for 1-2 years, and either gets a P5 HC gig or OC gig at one of the elite P5 schools.
To Daboll’s credit this is what he did. He had two separate gigs with Belichick. Interestingly enough, he reestablished himself as Saban’s OC in 2017. He followed that up with Buffalo and where he became a desirable HC candidate. A lot of Belichick’s guys never leave and I think it hurts them.
Judge was touted as having experience with Saban & Belichick, but so did Daboll which never really got mentioned.
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Still can be.
Quote:
In comment 15780364 Anakim said:
Quote:
I really liked the Golladay signing
You’re not wrong yet about SB. Year one proved that and then he became “crippled.” If he’s back, he may very well be just that..
Bruce, he has never been the best RB in the NFL even his rookie year and when he's been on the field after his rookie year he has at best been JAG. And JAG is likely being kind. He has so many warts that go beyond injury.
His rookie year, he had one of the worst offensive lines in football and was still all world and rookie of the year. Had 90 catches that year btw. His second year, he was the same until he got injured. Not sure why this is so hard to figure out.
this year however that wasn't possible simply because of timing. he got fired january 11th when most CFB jobs were filled.
Got it. Then we agree, when you said.
It read like you thought there were higher responsibility jobs out there this year.
Name calling not necessary. You going to stand and take the fire if tripling down on DJ doesn’t work out.? Or can we expect another conveniently timed hiatus ?
I don't know what his role is in New England, and his guardian angel took him in, but he didn't offer a good look in a job freighted with responsibility. How long before bygones will be bygones and he gets one of those roles elsewhere, whether CFB or NFL?
I was optimistic about Judge but the buy-in was ridiculous. People were creaming themselves over press conferences and practicing with wet footballs.
The people who should have the longest posts in this thread scurried away.
Quote:
.
Name calling not necessary. You going to stand and take the fire if tripling down on DJ doesn’t work out.? Or can we expect another conveniently timed hiatus ?
I’ll be leaving before the season starts as I have for the last several years..I WILL RETURN after the regular season ends to eat crow and take my licks if necessary..I am not going to watch the place go nuts after every DJ errant pass or turnover. I will either be right about DJ or way off..I will own any misjudgement I may make.
I am quadrupling down on DJ. and will discuss him when I return to a saner board when the season is over. I am NOT disappearing or running away. I will be back per usual.
Quote:
In comment 15780529 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.
Name calling not necessary. You going to stand and take the fire if tripling down on DJ doesn’t work out.? Or can we expect another conveniently timed hiatus ?
I’ll be leaving before the season starts as I have for the last several years..I WILL RETURN after the regular season ends to eat crow and take my licks if necessary..I am not going to watch the place go nuts after every DJ errant pass or turnover. I will either be right about DJ or way off..I will own any misjudgement I may make.
I am quadrupling down on DJ. and will discuss him when I return to a saner board when the season is over. I am NOT disappearing or running away. I will be back per usual.
Fair enough. Appreciate the response. I’ve tried to stray away from getting into pissing matches online but I failed here. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’ll return to attempting to keep it civil
I will not lurk, so whatever thoughts are opined will be discussed upon my return
I will not lurk, so whatever thoughts are opined will be discussed upon my return
Can I recommend a handle name change? Big Blue Martyr?
I also admit to being excited about Solder ... OOPS!
I also admit to being excited about Solder ... OOPS!
Me too
Quote:
he took a non-coordinator, non-guaranteed playcaller job in the NFL. it's almost certain he'll be able to get a job with more responsibility than that at the CFB level. possibly a lead job if he aims low enough in terms of the school.
this year however that wasn't possible simply because of timing. he got fired january 11th when most CFB jobs were filled.
Got it. Then we agree, when you said.
Quote:
im not sure that's the case - if it was i think we would have seen him take a different job instead of participating in this season of Survivor: New England OC.
It read like you thought there were higher responsibility jobs out there this year.
that was in reply to you saying that you thought Judge felt he should be leading an offense. im not sure that's the case (could be or couldn't be, id lean more towards him thinking he needs to learn it). if he was deadset on running an offense im sure there was an OC or HC job available in CFB post-january 11th where he could have done that, it just may not have been a good job that made sense. it would have likely been forcing whatever job had the responsibility available.
i would guess however that after this year we see him move on to either a HC job in CFB like MSU if that opens up or a real OC job for Kirby or Napier or maybe even Saban (unless he somehow has a great year in NE and is clearly the OC/playcaller over Patricia).
Glad to see I was wrong on that one.
I will not lurk, so whatever thoughts are opined will be discussed upon my return
Daboll: another HC trying to coach under constant next man up conditions.
Glad to see I was wrong on that one.
Well, he hasn't played a real game yet.
I am skeptical, too. Let's see him deliver when the lights are on.
I knew that Reese needed to go when TC was fired. I knew that Getty was an obvious mistake. I knew that McAdoo would be a slow motion train wreck. I knew Murmur would be a waste of two years. I thought Judge was most likely another nugget of fools gold from the Belichick mine. After Judge's 1st presser I was optimistic for the summer. But he put together a lousy staff and he wasn't ever a good coach. I though Mara would keep Judge until he melted down at the podium.
I'm not optimistic about Dabs. I really wanted Flores and still think he was the right man for this job. I think Mara wanted Flores too but he let Schoen pick his HC and who can really argue with that? Hopefully I'm wrong about Dabs. Very hopeful I'm wrong about Dabs!
I like Schoen. He worked his way up from the bottom. I love that he's been a scout. I think he'll be our GM for a long time. Really hope Schoen and Dabs are the real deal!
After that Denver fumble, I realized, yeah, I was right the first time. The guy's a joke.
Bringing him back for 2022? Ridiculously stupid. Another wasted year.
I thought he was planting the flag for a team that would not talk BS or take BS.
Obviously, his second season was a disaster.
Route 9 : 9/26/2021 4:02 pm : link
He's a fat pussy
I thought he was planting the flag for a team that would not talk BS or take BS.
Obviously, his second season was a disaster.
The telltale signs IMO were his passive-aggressive rant after the Eagles didn't win the division for them. I hate the Eagles more than BBI loves them but you could just tell he had the brain of a teenager and was in way over his head.
I made note of it back then of his weird press conference and was ridiculed. Oh well.
Wait ... This is the thing you were wrong about?
It makes perfect sense. His question was, “Recent opinions on the team you were WRONG ABOUT?”
See what happens when you don’t use CAPS LOCK.
But last year didn't really work out for either guy. And with Schoen losing out on some of his CB targets in this past draft, we now will basically be looking hard at the position in 2023.
Right now it is real hard to believe that Jones is anything more than what he's been -- spurts of ok plays plays mixed in with a lot of bad decisions and questionable executions
The play of our offense against the Patriots second string looked like a Jones replay of what we've been seeing all along out of him to me.
And the Defense, even with major Wink - looks like the porous backfield some of us had been suspecting was going to plague this season.
I will give Shoen and Dabs some room here - I like some of what they've done. The Oline does look better, the run game looks a little better, but the known weak areas of the team are still looking very weak, and have the look and feel like a lot of pain to come this season. The WR and TE corps look like what they are supposed to look like, as do the CBs -- very wanting.
After watching things play out for a few seasons it made me realized an important thing
"Giants Football" is dead. It simply isn't something that translate to todays players and todays game.
Discipline and Dependability will always be important, but the way things were run, both structurally and personality wise, was out dated.
Schoen and Daboll aren't heart to "bring back Giants football." They are hear to finally bring the New York Giants into the new way of football.
I thought they'd get Leo's contract done much sooner and for a chunk less.
Thought Will Hernandez would be a solid starter at worst.
Thought Lorenzo Carter would be a decent roleplayer.
Believed for a second that Darius Slayton was "fixed" by coaching after his rookie year.
I don't how you get giving the guy what amounts to an ultimatum in the midst of all the change in the program.
This is the one year where it will be the hardest to divine who's the reason for what.
I think they should have either cut him or given him two years.
I don't how you get giving the guy what amounts to an ultimatum in the midst of all the change in the program.
This is the one year where it will be the hardest to divine who's the reason for what.
I think they should have either cut him or given him two years.
I agree Christian. I'm starting to think Schoen/Daboll already had decided to move on barring a miraculous uptick in play. Based on who was available, They figured they would bring in another fringe starter in Taylor and give Jones every opportunity to "light the bulb" and letting him finish out his rookie contract while knowing this is 100% a rebuild year. If the bulb never lights they look to the draft in 2023. If it does, franchise him and all the while going forward keep building the team.
I agree Christian. I'm starting to think Schoen/Daboll already had decided to move on barring a miraculous uptick in play. Based on who was available, They figured they would bring in another fringe starter in Taylor and give Jones every opportunity to "light the bulb" and letting him finish out his rookie contract while knowing this is 100% a rebuild year. If the bulb never lights they look to the draft in 2023. If it does, franchise him and all the while going forward keep building the team.
Quote:
...esp it being COVID and the way they ended the season (.500 in division) - particularly ripping the Eagles for their lame effort on Week 17 versus the Skins.
I thought he was planting the flag for a team that would not talk BS or take BS.
Obviously, his second season was a disaster.
The telltale signs IMO were his passive-aggressive rant after the Eagles didn't win the division for them. I hate the Eagles more than BBI loves them but you could just tell he had the brain of a teenager and was in way over his head.
I made note of it back then of his weird press conference and was ridiculed. Oh well.
I liked what he did to the Eagles in that press conference. It was an embarrassment to the league and that franchise. Sort of, we will never not play the game the way it's supposed to be played.
However, that mindset as you point out, quickly went off the rails with his late 2021 press conferences calling out teams over nonsense, which made him look as you say a teenager.
Behind Abrams not getting the GM baton, I thought this, too. Once Mara made the public admission that he was essentially the reason for Jones's struggles, I thought that was akin to the Vatican smoke signal that a new pope had been selected.
This has definitely gone forgotten.
Quote:
clearly looking for a QB to push and potentially knock Jones out, even if just short-term while they scout the college prospects.
This has definitely gone forgotten.
I've been wrong about nothing- you guys should listen to me more. ;0) If you opposed everything the team did post firing Reese, you'd be right about pretty much everything
My guess is Taylor is the eventual starter or they trade for Garoppolo. I really don’t get the loyalty to Jones.
My guess is Taylor is the eventual starter or they trade for Garoppolo. I really don’t get the loyalty to Jones.
I really don't think Taylor is overall better than Jones. I never have, and I still don't. I think Jones stays the starter unless he gets hurt. I am still rooting for the guy, but at this point I am guessing unless he really starts playing better and better (and better - as the season progresses) we move on next year.