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| Connor Hughes @Connor_J_Hughes · 16h Asked Maccagnan this once. No way to answer. NYJ knew NYG were going Barkley & only Barkley. Only time MM got nervous was when Baker went 1. He knew Elway LOVED Darnold. Thought he’d offer moon & stars to NYG for 2. Might have. Gettleman never answered phone. Just took Barkley |
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| Benjamin Allbright @AllbrightNFL Replying to @Connor_J_Hughes Correct on all fronts including Denver trying to move up for Darnold and DG not answering |
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two disasters that should never be spoken of again. lol
Agreed. Done is done. Time to move on.
I don't know, I see *some* fans doing the same thing again.
Getting "sold" on coaches and coordinators and executives before even getting a season played.
In Gettleman's swan song draft with the Panthers, he drafted CMC with the 8th overall pick in 2017. So, he was fresh off the idea of taking a RB high. Positional value be damned.
One year later, as the new GM with NYG, he continued his outdated philosophy and took SB #2.
The die was cast when he arrived at 1925 Giants Way Drive on December 28, 2017. A day that will live in infamy...
Then the meeting with Ernie which I also think was a HUGE factor in all this.
2018 was a Hail Mary attempt at trying to give Eli the biggest offensive impact player in the draft and that pick combined with all the offseason decisions were based on that imv. It failed spectacularly but it was always a long shot. The damage was so deep from 2012-17. The difference was Eli was 38 now with PS. Tom Coughlin's type coaches don't come around very often. Eli knew this in 2015 but he was too classy to tell John the truth. Other spoke the truth to John after the benching.
Listen to Francessa's rant. The outrage after that benching from the vast majority of media. The former Giant players spoke. All the letter John received. John did not learn from Eli's tears at TC's firing. Eli knew the truth and John missed Eli's way of telling him. John learned from everyone else from that benching and now he understood. The Giants had been a horrible drafting team for a long time.
John Mara was going to have Eli finish his contract. He knew how terribly the franchise supported him and how they ruined the back end of his career and the missed opportunity.
Dave is gone. Great. Let's hope JS restores order.
But I definitely think Eli remaining as a starter played into DG's hire. Remember DG mentioned how Eli played in the December '17 Eagles game as a reason to build around him. That was stupid AF.
But I definitely think Eli remaining as a starter played into DG's hire. Remember DG mentioned how Eli played in the December '17 Eagles game as a reason to build around him. That was stupid AF.
I don't think he gets the job without agreeing to it but still I think it all started with Ernie. But you are certainly not the only one who thinks similarly about Dave 100% making the call.
I agree about the impact on John with respect to his Dad. I disagree about his Dad's last big decision. That was and will always be TC who Ernie was not enamored with. Some speculated it was John who saved TC after 2006. TC wouldn't come back after Handley. I believe he said he had more work to finish at BC. He did that the next year beating your Irish in South Bend! Wellington was letting it happen again.
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In comment 15781588 GFAN52 said:
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two disasters that should never be spoken of again. lol
Agreed. Done is done. Time to move on.
I don't know, I see *some* fans doing the same thing again.
Getting "sold" on coaches and coordinators and executives before even getting a season played.
We had people in year four of Gettleman's reign of terror still bitching about Reese.
I won't be judging Schoen/Daboll by the W-L record for at least this season and probably next. Gettleman will have more of an impact on the results of this year's team than Schoen does. Pretending he never happened when we are seven months removed from his exit is weird.
But I definitely think Eli remaining as a starter played into DG's hire. Remember DG mentioned how Eli played in the December '17 Eagles game as a reason to build around him. That was stupid AF.
Gettleman's hire was the perfect storm...
> Mara was committed to rebuilding the team for Eli
> Gettleman was available
> Ernie was available to lead the search
> Ernie drafted Eli
> Gettleman was here when Ernie drafted Eli
> Gettleman was very fond of Eli
> Ernie always felt guilty about recommending Reese over DG
> Hiring DG killed two birds with one stone:
-- Assuaged Ernie's guilt
-- DG would easily be on board to roll with Eli
Judy scolded him.
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I think John was very sentimental to Eli because-from all accounts-that was his old man's last major decision as owner. And I get that. I love Eli too. The thought of seeing him in another uniform would have sickened me & I'm glad he retired a Giant.
But I definitely think Eli remaining as a starter played into DG's hire. Remember DG mentioned how Eli played in the December '17 Eagles game as a reason to build around him. That was stupid AF.
Gettleman's hire was the perfect storm...
> Mara was committed to rebuilding the team for Eli
> Gettleman was available
> Ernie was available to lead the search
> Ernie drafted Eli
> Gettleman was here when Ernie drafted Eli
> Gettleman was very fond of Eli
> Ernie always felt guilty about recommending Reese over DG
> Hiring DG killed two birds with one stone:
-- Assuaged Ernie's guilt
-- DG would easily be on board to roll with Eli
Well, Gettleman wasn't a good disciple for Ernie. Fell pretty far from "You can never have too many pass rushers".
He certainly recommended him but it was not a hard sell. Dave was a very respected football man amongst those in the know. He was with Polian in Buffalo during the glory years. With Shanahan in Denver and came to the Giants for 15 years before departing.
It certainly was not because of Ernie's guilt. It just failed.
Everything Gettleman did was fruit of that poisoned tree.
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to win in 2007 and 2011. Hit on just enough new key players and kept enough core stars from the Accorsi era. Everything that followed in the front office was just a bunch of arrogant folks who thought they had the winning formula.
The free agents who made up the 2007 and 2011 teams are what got DG the GM job in Carolina.
He made the same mistake drafting a RB high on his way out of Carolina, but overall, the Carolina version of Gettleman was a different GM than the one we got, given they did reach a Superbowl while he was there.
(Some might say "he did it with Hurney's players" but Hurney's players were putting up mediocre records before Gettleman refined the roster.)
The version of Gettleman we got was awful, worse than end-era Reese, and glad he's gone.
(Not much unlike Rich Kotite who was horrible with the Jets but a mediocre/okay coach in Philly).
That other dude was Ross.
A few weeks before Accorsi recommended DG in 2017, this is a piece from an article outlining why DG was the clear front runner. And it mentions specifically how Ernie struggled with the Reese-DG decision.
A few weeks before Accorsi recommended DG in 2017, this is a piece from an article outlining why DG was the clear front runner. And it mentions specifically how Ernie struggled with the Reese-DG decision.
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Once A Giant, Always a Giant: Is that a bad thing? Critics of the Giants will say they need a fresh start and fresh ideas and should go outside the organization. There is value in that but the system has paid off in four Super Bowl titles in the last 31 years — only the Pats have more — as George Young handed off to Accorsi who then agonized before recommending ownership promote Reese over Gettleman in 2007. It was basically a photo finish between Reese and Gettleman.
Maybe that poster will reveal what you say but it sure seems like more agenda spinning by you as per usual. Most likely EA felt he had two strong candidates.
Now the quote you posted talks about the 31 years starting with Young. This is what I spoke to above. I then added 2012-2017 as the dismantling of what Young had stared. So I agree with the context of that part. Notice 31 years not 36. The author saw it as well.
The only two people qualified to say when Eli was done are probably KG and TC. 2012-17 you had a good enough QB but the variables needed changed over time. The Giants never adjusted to that change and it was to late for DG's plan to work and it sure didn't.
That is epic "smelling your own brand".
Lawrence Taylor, Parcells, and George Young produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left. You can argue that none of those men would have been put in place if the Maras were running the franchise unchecked.
Coughlin and Manning and Reese produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left.
Coughlin is Wellington's legacy. Eli is Accorsi's legacy. John Mara's Giant Way has done no winning.
If Mara wanted to give it another run with Eli, he should have just given Gettleman & Shurmur two years. Eli would get two years as well. That means not forcing a QB in 2019.
Had they done this, they could have had a true reset in 2020 which would have included GM-HC-QB.
That is epic "smelling your own brand".
Lawrence Taylor, Parcells, and George Young produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left. You can argue that none of those men would have been put in place if the Maras were running the franchise unchecked.
Coughlin and Manning and Reese produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left.
Coughlin is Wellington's legacy. Eli is Accorsi's legacy. John Mara's Giant Way has done no winning.
John Mara should get credit for sticking with Coughlin/Eli after 2006. That was not a majority opinion by any means, BBI in January 2007 was not happy about Coughlin coming back. To a lesser extent, sticking with Coughlin after 2010 deserves credit too.
Then the meeting with Ernie which I also think was a HUGE factor in all this.
2018 was a Hail Mary attempt at trying to give Eli the biggest offensive impact player in the draft and that pick combined with all the offseason decisions were based on that imv. It failed spectacularly but it was always a long shot. The damage was so deep from 2012-17. The difference was Eli was 38 now with PS. Tom Coughlin's type coaches don't come around very often. Eli knew this in 2015 but he was too classy to tell John the truth. Other spoke the truth to John after the benching.
Listen to Francessa's rant. The outrage after that benching from the vast majority of media. The former Giant players spoke. All the letter John received. John did not learn from Eli's tears at TC's firing. Eli knew the truth and John missed Eli's way of telling him. John learned from everyone else from that benching and now he understood. The Giants had been a horrible drafting team for a long time.
John Mara was going to have Eli finish his contract. He knew how terribly the franchise supported him and how they ruined the back end of his career and the missed opportunity.
Dave is gone. Great. Let's hope JS restores order.
Your continued efforts to minimize Gettleman or give him a pass and share the blame do not go unnoticed.
The Barkley pick was all Dave. And if he had any idea what he was doing as a GM, he would have properly analyzed both the roster and Eli as non-competive too. But he missed those, therefore a hand-of-god RB must have seemed like a nice prize to this moron.
Keep it going though, it's a bit fun to watch you tie every bad DG decision over 4 years to somebody else pulling the strings in Jints Central...
[quote] In comment 15781693 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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To understand the pick you have to first accept what had occurred from 2012-17. The destruction of the bedrock of Giants football started by Young had left the building. This while being in possession of a then 32 year old QB (2012) and his HC. Some franchises never find one great one let alone two great ones at the same time. Let that sink in.
Then the meeting with Ernie which I also think was a HUGE factor in all this.
2018 was a Hail Mary attempt at trying to give Eli the biggest offensive impact player in the draft and that pick combined with all the offseason decisions were based on that imv. It failed spectacularly but it was always a long shot. The damage was so deep from 2012-17. The difference was Eli was 38 now with PS. Tom Coughlin's type coaches don't come around very often. Eli knew this in 2015 but he was too classy to tell John the truth. Other spoke the truth to John after the benching.
Listen to Francessa's rant. The outrage after that benching from the vast majority of media. The former Giant players spoke. All the letter John received. John did not learn from Eli's tears at TC's firing. Eli knew the truth and John missed Eli's way of telling him. John learned from everyone else from that benching and now he understood. The Giants had been a horrible drafting team for a long time.
John Mara was going to have Eli finish his contract. He knew how terribly the franchise supported him and how they ruined the back end of his career and the missed opportunity.
Dave is gone. Great. Let's hope JS restores order.
Your continued efforts to minimize Gettleman or give him a pass and share the blame do not go unnoticed.
The Barkley pick was all Dave. And if he had any idea what he was doing as a GM, he would have properly analyzed both the roster and Eli as non-competive too. But he missed those, therefore a hand-of-god RB must have seemed like a nice prize to this moron.
Oh, I thought I had already told you I don't respect your thoughts. Again, time to move on to somebody else on your list. Best of luck.
You'd call this the stupidest thing Gettleman did, until someone reminds you of others.
Just as Allen wasn't great initially at Buffalo, but they persisted and developed him, likewise Denver would have been a much better destination for Darnold than the Jets. I agree with Rich Eisen that the Jets broke Darnold. Kid has or had talent, it needed developing.
No, ordinarily you don't take a RB so high, but it's different when you have two top four picks, a pretty unusual situation.
I would argue that, good as Nick Chubb has been, with that offense Barkley may well have been better.
No, ordinarily you don't take a RB so high, but it's different when you have two top four picks, a pretty unusual situation.
I would argue that, good as Nick Chubb has been, with that offense Barkley may well have been better.
Clearly the Browns' grade on Mayfield was wide enough versus the other QBs not to go Barkley first. They still wanted Saquon badly and tried to get Gettleman to give up the #2 pick but he wasn't having any.
I have said before...Barkley was the easy pick, not the right one.
Just as Allen wasn't great initially at Buffalo, but they persisted and developed him, likewise Denver would have been a much better destination for Darnold than the Jets. I agree with Rich Eisen that the Jets broke Darnold. Kid has or had talent, it needed developing.
Excellent post. Many have very little understanding of the QB position as they look at it from a narrow lens. We have several gurus on here who have all the answers.
Interesting thought on SB. I think Cleveland built a OL that could support a lot of backs. SB would certainly get some big runs but they rely on PA and I would worry about his pass protection issues might offset the positives.
He brought in one impact player to that 2015 Panthers team, Trai Turner. All of those other Pro Bowl players they had were on the roster the day Gettleman was hired.
That is epic "smelling your own brand".
Lawrence Taylor, Parcells, and George Young produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left. You can argue that none of those men would have been put in place if the Maras were running the franchise unchecked.
Coughlin and Manning and Reese produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left.
Coughlin is Wellington's legacy. Eli is Accorsi's legacy. John Mara's Giant Way has done no winning.
I agree. You can maybe add a few names, but the Giants Way is nonsense, especially now that the game has shifted away from defense. It's more than ever a QB league.
If they fail? I am worried he will crawl back into his echo chamber and start making decisions while clutching pictures of Frank Gifford and Andy Robustelli.
The only two people qualified to say when Eli was done are probably KG and TC. 2012-17 you had a good enough QB but the variables needed changed over time. The Giants never adjusted to that change and it was to late for DG's plan to work and it sure didn't.
This is simply not accurate.
As the 2016 season went along, it showed clear cut signs that Eli Manning was no longer good enough. His game was deteriorating and he was doing the best he could in that season and the ones that followed basically relying on his good football mind/experience. But it wasn't nearly enough.
The only reason you couldn't be able to see it is if you didn't want to or looked to blame his surroundings more.
The game has changed a bunch, just in the last 10 years. The teams that succeed are the ones who don't get set in their ways, find the advantages in the market, and accept the rules dictate a lot of what succeeds.
The silliest thing the Giants could do (and thankfully they don't seem to be), is try to recreate something that worked a lifetime ago.
When you look at the offense and defense, you can see Schoen and Dabs are building a fast, modern approach on both sides of the ball.
If they fail? I am worried he will crawl back into his echo chamber and start making decisions while clutching pictures of Frank Gifford and Andy Robustelli.
This is my concern and also why I really hope they get a fair shake in terms of control. The mark of John / Chris Mara has been lots of meddling and little accountability. Unfortunately I do not think they are capable of doing the analysis if JS goes bad to say hey maybe we meddled too much again and we are the problem?
I'm still very nervous about the impact that they can have on even a good GM. Like for all DG's faults I do think their whole management structure made him worse. I'd like to be hopeful about this but everything that has gone on with DJ and John Mara this offseason gives me pause.
If Mara wanted to give it another run with Eli, he should have just given Gettleman & Shurmur two years. Eli would get two years as well. That means not forcing a QB in 2019.
Had they done this, they could have had a true reset in 2020 which would have included GM-HC-QB.
Gettleman should have been fired after 2018 after thinking that roster needed a few tweaks to compete and it immediately blowing up in his face.
I was fine with the Gettleman hire but he immediately lost my confidence with the Solder signing, Barkley pick, Ogletree trade. He clearly thought we were a few tweaks away from competing. It was obviously dumb.
Mara allowing the last gasp of throwing shit loads of money at Golladay and Jackson for a team that could only hope and pray for 8 wins was malpractice. Those were attempts at saving jobs, not an attempt at winning a championship.
The game has changed a bunch, just in the last 10 years. The teams that succeed are the ones who don't get set in their ways, find the advantages in the market, and accept the rules dictate a lot of what succeeds.
The silliest thing the Giants could do (and thankfully they don't seem to be), is try to recreate something that worked a lifetime ago.
When you look at the offense and defense, you can see Schoen and Dabs are building a fast, modern approach on both sides of the ball.
Yeah one thing that struck me with Judge and the disconnect I think many had was how he would talk about all the multiple looks, game planning etc.
And then when everyone was running a bunch of motion, using different sets, throwing on "running" downs and vice versa etc. he was playing predictably and conservatively.
This season will be interesting, there are too many variables. But some of what I think allows teams to do those things well is strong technology / analytics departments. And I suspect that was part of Judge's problem. I did allude to this when he was here as well when people would suggest that Judge would help the Giants "modernize." Having coaches capable of drawing up schemes to exploit matchups and feeding them data helping them to do so are two different animals.
He/they were basically looking for playmakers that could have an immediate impact and win some games.
Barley and D Jones with his scrambling ability seemed to fit the bill for that.
Trading down to just add a bunch of JAGS in the later rounds to your team and, drafting Darnold and having him sit behind Eli ; doesn't really get the job done. The Darnold part I know because Collins said so on the air that he spoke to Shurm about it.
Oh yeah. Cannot mention that silly little boat trip. We're all smart here and need to spend our democracy in the BBI region of the world, you know, proving otherwise.
So many of the obvious incompetencies have been verified since he left.
If I spent years defending that guy, I'd never show my face here.
Good for you. Such a noble take.
Unacceptable. Typo.
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It's sad how much energy certain posters invested in defending Rabbit Foot Dave.
So many of the obvious incompetencies have been verified since he left.
If I spent years defending that guy, I'd never show my face here.
Good for you. Such a noble take.
I set my limit on being obnoxiously wrong about a topic at one year.
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In comment 15781323 christian said:
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It's sad how much energy certain posters invested in defending Rabbit Foot Dave.
So many of the obvious incompetencies have been verified since he left.
If I spent years defending that guy, I'd never show my face here.
Good for you. Such a noble take.
I set my limit on being obnoxiously wrong about a topic at one year.
But just obnoxious the rest of the year.
Good for you. Such a noble take.
I set my limit on being obnoxiously wrong about a topic at one year.
But just obnoxious the rest of the year.
I like to think of it as delightfully spot on.
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is that "the giants way" has produced 4 super bowls.
That is epic "smelling your own brand".
Lawrence Taylor, Parcells, and George Young produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left. You can argue that none of those men would have been put in place if the Maras were running the franchise unchecked.
Coughlin and Manning and Reese produced 2 super bowls. When they left, the winning left.
Coughlin is Wellington's legacy. Eli is Accorsi's legacy. John Mara's Giant Way has done no winning.
I agree. You can maybe add a few names, but the Giants Way is nonsense, especially now that the game has shifted away from defense. It's more than ever a QB league.
There never was a Giants way. It's been argued that since the early 60s, the only difference between the Giants and Lions is that the Giants got LT and Eli.
Just thank your stars he’s gone.
The Maras seem like a good people, but their football acumen is, uh, well...it leaves a lot to be desired. & I'm still pissed over that sham GM search following the firing of Reese. That was a joke.
Let's just hope Mara lets Schoen run the show with no interference.