Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
That's all fine, but for one thing. It is not abundantly clear who the best player is at QB. Assuming it is Jones or handing him that role because he's the incumbent is wrong, especially for a new regime. If their determination is that he is truly the #1, then I say go with it. But if there is any front office influence, or anybfsctors other than playbon the field, then that's a mistake.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
I don't think Taylor is better than Jones but have a feeling
Taylor has the ability to get the Offense into the end zone more often when they get down there. Not a lot mind you, but moreso than Jones who hasn't exhibited any of the features to be decent at that since his rookie year.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
By most media reports, which admittedly are limited, Taylor has looked better in practice. One could argue he looked better in the pre-season game as well. He was more decisive and comfortable in the pocket.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
I guess I struggle with the Taylor being here next year angle. He's signed for 2 years at backup money so I want him to be the backup next year, not the starter. If the Giants stink again and we select a QB in the 1st round, i'd like to think the rookie will earn the starting job out of the gates. If not, maybe it will take a month. Either way, Taylor or some other vet being here shouldn't change how we approach the rookie and when the player should become the full time starter.
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
Having Taylor here for 2 years was a very smart move
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
for any competitive team, but I'm fine with management giving him a shot. That shot is not a guaranteed season-long try-out. If he struggles, Daboll should and will give Tyrod a chance.
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
fair or unfair we are beyond that now. If we start 0-2 and the offense looks anemic, i'd end it. You aren't going to get a much better chance to show you are the goods than at home vs. Carolina.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
RE: RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
with a rookie QB in Dallas put up 26 ppg.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I think you also have to consider SB. Shurmur had him for 13 games in 2019. JG had him for 2 and last year SB really was not back.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
I think Shurmur and Garrett are both capable offensive
Coaches and think their long term track record in the NFL supports that.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
In my opinion it comes down to: can he find the open receiver and get the ball out of his hand fast enough? Has his failure to improve in this area been due to coaching turnover and a poor supporting cast or will he always be limited by an inability to process things fast enough. He's a smart guy, so I think he will do fine when it comes to pre-snap reads and as he gains more experience his decision-making in all circumstances will naturally improve, but intelligence and mental processing speed have about as much to do with each other as a marathon and the hundred yard dash. Hopefully his coaches and supporting cast will do enough for him that we can reasonably judge: did he get the ball out of his hand and into the hands of the open receiver fast enough?
RE: RE: Does Daniel Jones at QB keep the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens,
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
OK. Jones didn't really play well ....ever. In the NFL rookie Qb's are expected to be terrible and, all you can hope for is some flashes. I guess you can say Jones gave you that but, under what circumstances? Always playing from behind -- in many cases by 2 plus scores -- from the turnovers HE HIMSELF created with defense content to give him everything underneath / not give up a big play and blow the lead.
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Coaching is not the same standard as players where you can say an unsigned free agent is "out of the NFL" for not being good enough.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
RE: RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I honestly don't know why people even want to bring up
his rookie campaign so much. Besides Shurmur being one of the best at getting production out of the QBs he coaches I feel many are overlooking the most important fact.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
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Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
I am going to look to Daniel Jones for confirmation of Garrett being worse than Shurmur. A guy who managed to get production out Case Keenum . I don't know what Surmur does to make what otherwise would be back-up QBs--and make no mistake that is what D Jones is-- look like legit starters with upside but, he is what he is.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
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Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
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First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
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draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
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In comment 15783288 Debaser said:
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
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In comment 15783277 UConn4523 said:
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Period.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
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we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
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In comment 15784122 Debaser said:
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
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most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
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Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
Shurmur had an NFL offense with Jones.
Garrett had one of the worst offenses I’ve ever seen with Jones, twice.
Are you following along yet? There’s a lot more I can add but I’ll stop with those 3 very simple to understand points.
Oh wait…