is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
Yeah I don't think Taylor is particularly good. I do think Jones is that bad. And I would like to see more winning football. So I'd like to see TT starting even though I know that will never happen. Well not until the team loses with Jones starting
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
I m taking liberties here, but from your consistent take on Jones I thinking you would rank him somewhere in the high 40 s low 50 s as a quarterback; most all other starters and several back ups would be ranked higher.
If this turns out to be true, it casts severe doubt on the team of Schoen and Daboll, to evaluate talent and just throw away a season on someone with no potential to be anything but what you claim him to be.
I think it’s clear based on several metrics. The issue is that Taylor statistically has been tailing off, while admittedly playing for some awful teams. It’s one if those situations where you really need to compare their performance in camp and preseason directly and see which is better because the numbers can be read different ways.
+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
That is not true. In a number of his reports, Sy stated that TT looked more decisive and was the better QB that day. That is a fact.
+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
That is not true. In a number of his reports, Sy stated that TT looked more decisive and was the better QB that day. That is a fact.
How dare you actually read those daily reports... ;)
I was going to pull the quotes, but it's likely not worth it...
Sy's reports must be really difficult to decipher for BBIers.
I m taking liberties here, but from your consistent take on Jones I thinking you would rank him somewhere in the high 40 s low 50 s as a quarterback; most all other starters and several back ups would be ranked higher.
If this turns out to be true, it casts severe doubt on the team of Schoen and Daboll, to evaluate talent and just throw away a season on someone with no potential to be anything but what you claim him to be.
I never looked at it with that much granularity. I try to keep it as Jones being a starter vs the other starters in the league.
When I do that, it seems reasonable to rank Jones as a player in the bottom third of the league amongst his peers.
It will all be clearer a few weeks from now but it’s probably fair
To say that Jason Garrett was getting the best out of Jones. The ‘Garrett Was Incompetent’ narrative on BBI may be comprehensively rewritten in the next couple of months.
If Jones cannot play better than Taylor what difference does it makes? It means we have two below average quarterbacks.
In that case in order to be competitive, we need great defense and a strong run grade.
I think the defense baring injuries will be top ten
So we need an O line that can run block and Barkley to stay healthy and return to rookie form. This is also possible.
We don't have any quarterback that can carry this team. It's a team sport we have to count on other elements to carry the team and not the quarterback.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Against 3rd and 4th stringers last week. He was constantly late and inaccurate in throws. Some of his throws were completed but since there were underthrown or behind…. YAC opportunities were lost. He had about 4-5 passes where a better defender would have INT opportunities.
Taylor has better pocket awareness than Jones which would probably be beneficial for us… but there’s a reason why no one ever saw him as a QB of the future guy. Lacks arm strength as well.
I am no hurry to hand him the reigns. If Jones sucks for 3-4 games, then fine.
it's about being able to evaluate your young tackles. It's harder to do that when they know they are going to have to block forever because their QB has terrible awareness and no internal clock.
You want to know what you have in Toney, Robinson, even if KG has anything for you and it's hard to do that when you have a QB that reads the field poorly and zeroes in on his first reads.
To me starting Taylor is much more about not letting Jones drag down the performance of other players that are more important to evaluate than Jones Vs. over-evaluating a player in Jones that has probably shown more than enough to know it isn't going to click for him.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
Tyrod was hurt the 1st half of last season, but came back for the 2nd half. He played so poorly he was benched for Davis Mills, and Mills was announced the starter for the remainder of the season. It wasn't simply he was hurt, he also sucked.
I find it funny now that saying Jones isn't the guy, but he's better than Tyrod, has become "supporting" Jones
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
I'm going of TT's career averages.
He was the starter in Cleveland in 2018 until he got hurt. Which paved the way for Mayfield, their #1 pick.
He signed as the back-up to Phillip Rivers in 2019.
He was the starter for the Chargers in 2020 but punctured his lung. Which led to the Herbert taking the wheel and never looking back.
In 2021, Taylor got hurt again as a starter for the Texans. And that paved the way for Davis Mills.
So, with the injuries (a definite concern) and the QBs he was backing up, Taylor just had fewer opportunities the last four years.
Based on what I saw in the Pats game, coupled with Sy's camp reports, I don't think TT has lost much since 2017. He's moving great and seems capable of making most throws.
Added up, yes, I feel good about my position that Taylor is a better QB option than Jones.
Taylor has been to the Superbowl, the probowl and been replaced by Baker Mayfield, Justin Herbert and Davis Mills at each subsequent stop. I've seen footage of TT making business decisions and throwing some great passes. That said, I wasn't sure but he seemed to be staring down his receivers vs the Pats this weekend. I liked his pocket presence but could see why he might struggle to get to the next level in his career. DJ has done nothing but, I feel, he's had absolutely nothing around him. He looked decent at times vs the Pats but still struggle to make short passes on occasions. I think you can win with EITHER QB, but they need an above average supporting cast. I don't know that DJ will ELEVATE Golladay the way Eli could/did elevate receivers (Steve Smith, Plax, Kevin Boss, Nicks, Manningham, etc.). Maybe Taylor can build a rapport with KG and KT that DJ can't? I'm truly more interested to see if this staff can help DJ improve to the potential he showed in his rookie season. I think we know what Taylor is. If DJ can stay healthy (He hasn't so far), he may have the brains and enough physical talent to be an above average QB. That may be better option, cap wise, than having a superstar QB and no financial flexibility to sign or keep topp talent.
when looking at the most critical position in sports, and not being able to find an ounce of production from a player in 5 years. I know you don't actually believe this as stating it would really hurt your take on Jones.
Its perfectly fine to think Jones isn't good. Its also fine to call Taylor what he is. What is this so difficult? Do you care about BBI clout that much?
The odds of him being in place at the helm sometime this season are pretty good based on Jones injury history. That said, not sure what people are looking at to say Taylor is demonstrably better than Jones. They each have looked pedestrian so far. Taylor looks like he has more confidence in the pocket but that's the only advantage I give him. He was not passing well overall in that 1st preseason game.
Anyway not sure it matters all that much. We know what Taylor is. There is still some slight doubt on Jones based on circumstances the past 2 years, and better stats and overall play his rookie year. That means there is still potential upside to starting him, as relatively little as people believe it to be. If Jones doesn't progress we move on. We are rebuilding and I don't see this team being much above .500 this year anyway.
If he can outperform DJ, and he represents more confidence they can win with it, then he's the stop gap rather than DJ. We all want DJ to succeed and seize the moment, but if he isn't then they need to change gears.
This is about 2022 decisions and either they're getting in on DJ or he's out the door so they can move forward.
had Taylor in Buffalo back in 2017 and got rid of him because he wasn't the guy.
They also signed him this year, so maybe they thought he is the guy?
There were any number of reasons to let TT walk. He had been the starter, and Buff was clearly going with Allen, so getting rid of the former starter eliminates any QB controversy if Allen struggled. It isn’t that uncommon.
had Taylor in Buffalo back in 2017 and got rid of him because he wasn't the guy.
They also signed him this year, so maybe they thought he is the guy?
There were any number of reasons to let TT walk. He had been the starter, and Buff was clearly going with Allen, so getting rid of the former starter eliminates any QB controversy if Allen struggled. It isn’t that uncommon.
Oh? They signed him as a competent backup, which you realize we haven't had in quite some time. He's 33 now and hasn't done squat in 5 years. He's not the guy.
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
Yeah I don't think Taylor is particularly good. I do think Jones is that bad. And I would like to see more winning football. So I'd like to see TT starting even though I know that will never happen. Well not until the team loses with Jones starting
I cannot speak for Sy, but I don't think his write-ups suggest Taylor should start. He said he is the best backup we have had. A pretty low bar.
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
This is his story - play well, get injured, replaced by a young stud draft pick then on to another team.
I'm thinking history will repeat itself here, he''ll beat-out Jones (because he's better); the Giants will then draft the real franchise QB answer they need and Taylor will ride into the sunset. (For his sake, I hope he doesn't have to suffer another injury).
This is his story - play well, get injured, replaced by a young stud draft pick then on to another team.
I'm thinking history will repeat itself here, he''ll beat-out Jones (because he's better); the Giants will then draft the real franchise QB answer they need and Taylor will ride into the sunset. (For his sake, I hope he doesn't have to suffer another injury).
But then he returned in November and started again. He played so much worse than Mills that he got benched for the rest of the year
when looking at the most critical position in sports, and not being able to find an ounce of production from a player in 5 years. I know you don't actually believe this as stating it would really hurt your take on Jones.
Its perfectly fine to think Jones isn't good. Its also fine to call Taylor what he is. What is this so difficult? Do you care about BBI clout that much?
I'm not sure what you want me to call Taylor. I'm not saying he's a top 15 QB. Not even a top 20 QB. I'm simply saying there is enough data/evidence to support that he's a better QB than Jones.
TT has more experience than Jones, has played at a higher level than Jones, and was playing in circumstances the last four years (as enumerated) that prevented him from playing much.
And just because TT hasn't played much the last four years, doesn't mean he's lost anything. He was an average player four years ago and that's what I think he is today.
If I had my druthers, we would get very aggressive and make a move for JimG because I think the NFCE is up for grabs. Because I don't think either TT or DJ are reliable or good enough to make that happen. I just think TT would get us closer...
but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
Perhaps. I wouldn't say Pickett is my guy so much, but I thought folks were down on a guy that had some great qualities and who had a decent chance to become a top 10 QB. And the comparisons to Jones that were stated on BBI were woefully misguided.
you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
Taylor did nothing against the Patriots to suggest that. His ball placement was very poor.
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
Did you see what I wrote? I acknowledged that Pickett has not looked good in practice. However, he played well in the actual game despite the circumstances. Maybe that's his MO...
you are allowing for an injury and poor team excuse for one player and not the other. I’ve already agreed Jones isn’t good. Someone is playing dumb and it isn’t me.
you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
Taylor did nothing against the Patriots to suggest that. His ball placement was very poor.
Taylor is a known quantity. He's a conservative QB with decent athleticism who doesn't turn the ball over. He can move an offense but on most days he cannot light it up. His conservative style makes him a good caddy or bridge QB.
Neither appears to be playing particularly well based on the camp reports. If you have two QBs who are similar in talent, it makes sense to get both first team reps to see if one looks better than the other.
It is foolish to think that Taylor will start the season unless Jones is hurt or really flops in camp. It is also foolish to think that he gets 8, 10 or 17 games to start so that they can "see what they have" in Jones. If he is really bad in weeks 1-3 he hasn't done anything to warrant more games. He isn't a rookie. There is a deep file on him and his abilities.
Taylor is not the long term answer, but he is likely the one who will be here next year as a starter until a rookie is ready to take over. Jones is only hear next year if he grabs the job by the throat and makes it his. I think most of us think that is possible, but highly unlikely.
How many threads did we have to put up with with posters comparing or tracking the progress of Daniel Jones versus other young QBs like Josh Allen and Justin Herbert? These were just comical.
Then the bar fell further down as the debate moved to assessing Jones' potential ceiling versus other starters like Ryan Tannehill and Kirk Cousins. These threads also fell flat on their faces.
Now it's about whether or not he looks definitively better than a journeyman QB who is on his 5th team in as many years.
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
There's a few very poor practice players in the H of F...Practice,we're talking about practice..Really,practice..Love you Iverson!!
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
Pickett's arm is fine. True he doesn't have elite arm strength but he is as good or better than Jones in that department. Plus he is very accurate, has great ball placement and great touch and delivers a very catchable ball.
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
I agree with you on Pickett's potential, but there is a learning curve for any QB to get used to the speed of the NFL. As "NFL-ready" as any QB is, there is still a steep learning curve when it comes to NFL speed and terminology.
Jones is in his 4th year and is still struggling in practice. That is not a good sign.
A much more capable, proven backup than either backup QB from 2021 that can play well enough that the Giants could win a few games with him as a starter. Probably nothing more than that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It is saf and tragic for us
In comment 15782363 GNewGiants said
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
Honest question for you or anyone who wants to take a stab. How many QBs drafted since 2017 (the year we should have thought about replacing Eli) would make us a playoff team?
Mahomes seems like everyone’s answer (but we would have had to give a boatload for him - and he would have gone to a dysfunctional team with some horrible coaching.) I am not sure we get that same player.
Herbert would be the one for me that we screwed the pooch.
Josh Allen would have been a huge question mark due to the fact he would be placed on a horrible team with horrible coaching. Not sure our staff we had would have helped him.
The rest? I don’t see anyone taken making us a serious playoff contender with the staff and GM we have had since 2017.
A much more capable, proven backup than either backup QB from 2021 that can play well enough that the Giants could win a few games with him as a starter. Probably nothing more than that.
That might be more than Daniel Jones is… so give him the reps… find out for sure.
If Tyrod stunk as bad as Daniel in the 7 camp practices I attended I would be the first one to say, Daniel stinks but he’s better than the next option… unfortunately the next option is Tyrod and from what I saw with my own 2 eyes, he looked a little bit better than Daniel has in camp, sometimes he looked a lot better, particularly with the quick passing scheme which works best with what we have in KT, Wandale, Shep etc….
If Tyrod stunk as bad as Daniel in the 7 camp practices I attended I would be the first one to say, Daniel stinks but he’s better than the next option… unfortunately the next option is Tyrod and from what I saw with my own 2 eyes, he looked a little bit better than Daniel has in camp, sometimes he looked a lot better, particularly with the quick passing scheme which works best with what we have in KT, Wandale, Shep etc….
Wouldn’t it help Jones to have Toney and Shep as well?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It is saf and tragic for us
In comment 15782363 GNewGiants said
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
Honest question for you or anyone who wants to take a stab. How many QBs drafted since 2017 (the year we should have thought about replacing Eli) would make us a playoff team?
Mahomes seems like everyone’s answer (but we would have had to give a boatload for him - and he would have gone to a dysfunctional team with some horrible coaching.) I am not sure we get that same player.
Herbert would be the one for me that we screwed the pooch.
Josh Allen would have been a huge question mark due to the fact he would be placed on a horrible team with horrible coaching. Not sure our staff we had would have helped him.
The rest? I don’t see anyone taken making us a serious playoff contender with the staff and GM we have had since 2017.
If we’re looking at the team as currently constructed you’re probably right, but taking a QB at a different point probably changes how the roster is constructed.
If they started to look into replacing Eli in 2017 like they should have they probably put more resources into the oline instead of taking a RB.
Would it help to wait 4 more years to see if everybody
If we’re looking at the team as currently constructed you’re probably right, but taking a QB at a different point probably changes how the roster is constructed.
If they started to look into replacing Eli in 2017 like they should have they probably put more resources into the oline instead of taking a RB.
Very fair points but with DG running the show, I am not confident he would have done anything right.
Bold statement. I like it but that’s one we have to wait and see how he does. He wasn’t that good last year (not his fault. Hiring Meyer was pathetic).
LJax? Maybe. But our team is not nearly as good as Balt and his progression would be worse since he was drafted since the coaching andnGM was that bad.
Joey B - another good choice. But again he’s downgrading big time on talent around him.
The first 3 I agree on.
Does Daniel Jones at QB keep the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens,
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Not even close to 95%.
And the other points do not matter...we are where we are with DJ. And that is nowhere.
RE: RE: Does Daniel Jones at QB keep the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens,
Matter a lot. Because your assuming Jones is the only thing holding us back. When it fact it could be argued that many things holding the team back. When you have ineptness at..
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Matter a lot. Because your assuming Jones is the only thing holding us back. When it fact it could be argued that many things holding the team back. When you have ineptness at..
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
Jones hasn't done himself any favors over 4 years. He has not lived up to the expectations this team has had for him any more than the rest of the poor player personnel and coaches have.
He's not a good QB no matter who you care to blame all the other problems with the team on.
And his time is almost up...
No actually what makes even less sense is to ascribe any
remotely significant probability of success to a QB that has shown very little other than athletic tools in college and the pros who was also a 0 star recruit.
I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of people wanting to give Jones every excuse.
If you watched someone trying to ride a bike, for years, and years, and they were just bad at it, tipping over. Getting their pants caught in the wheel. It would be dumb to be like. Well the road they are riding on right now is uneven and he's riding a shitty bike and blah blah.
If you saw someone doing backflips on a bike and then all of a sudden couldn't ride then yeah, you could blame the bike and that would make sense.
The issue isn't the lack of talent around Jones. The issue is very clearly the lack of talent around Jones AND Jones. Why some of you insist that someone that has always been bad is getting like a raw deal from fans here is beyond me.
RE: No actually what makes even less sense is to ascribe any
The issue isn't the lack of talent around Jones. The issue is very clearly the lack of talent around Jones AND Jones. Why some of you insist that someone that has always been bad is getting like a raw deal from fans here is beyond me.
I certainly don’t disagree with you on it being both. I’ve said I’m ready to move on from as well. So please don’t lump me there. One of the reasons why i didn’t want a QB at 5 or 7 was cause I want to build up a team.
And it’s ok to say he got a raw deal here. Even him being a bad QB - he was strapped with so much ineptness. It’s a raw deal for every player.
Matter a lot. Because your assuming Jones is the only thing holding us back. When it fact it could be argued that many things holding the team back. When you have ineptness at..
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
Jones hasn't done himself any favors over 4 years. He has not lived up to the expectations this team has had for him any more than the rest of the poor player personnel and coaches have.
He's not a good QB no matter who you care to blame all the other problems with the team on.
And his time is almost up...
And that’s fine. I don’t see that many people disagreeing with this point.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Great post and I agree. I try but the QB guru group is one of great resilience to the truth and they lack some basic understanding of offensive football. Great persistence and enthusiasm though!
That said, if I were to give any of the QB's a shot it would be Josh Allen. That young man is a really special player. Hope Buffalo does not waste him and fixes the interior on both sides.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Great post and I agree. I try but the QB guru group is one of great resilience to the truth and they lack some basic understanding of offensive football. Great persistence and enthusiasm though!
That said, if I were to give any of the QB's a shot it would be Josh Allen. That young man is a really special player. Hope Buffalo does not waste him and fixes the interior on both sides.
Agreed on all points. Although I would have loved to have landed Burrow somehow, some way... lol
This is one of those debates where I have a hard time seeing
Q: Is there a need or maybe a desire or maybe even a curiosity to see what (Quarterback) Tyrod (Taylor) can do with the first team at some point this summer?
A: Yeah, as we get going here in terms of the preseason games, we’ll talk about whatever we think is best. But I have full confidence in (Quarterback) Daniel (Jones) and full confidence in Tyrod and what his role is. Each day, we sit there and we evaluate the guys. But will he get a few reps here or there? He might.
Q: Is that any reflection on Daniel?
A: Absolutely not. No. I learned from a pretty good coach a while ago, usually he doesn’t tell those guys when he throws them in because that’s what the backup’s role is. You have to go in on a split second. You prepare like you’re a starter. But the fourth play of a game, something happens, you’re in, you got to be ready to go. So, I don’t necessarily think we’ll tell those guys when that will happen.
RE: This is one of those debates where I have a hard time seeing
Burrow is a interesting one. He does have the swagger. I was really high on him but the SB soured me some. Look forward to seeing him play in the future. That WR group is pretty special.
RE: RE: RE: half a decade is a lifetime in the NFL
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games). Go look at Josh Allen's game logs from his first year. He topped 200 yards 6 times in 12 games with 245 being his high. He had ZERO good games as a rookie.
Or better yet, compare Jones to Manning's rookie year. Eli had a zero passer rating one game. And another at 17. He had 6 TDs and 9 INTs in 7 starts. His BEST game was 201 yards. Jones had 24 and 12 in 12 starts and his worst rating was 35.2. His second worst was 49.4. And Eli had a far better supporting cast.
Manning's rating for the year was 55.3, Allen's was 67.9, Jones' was 87.7. And don't say Manning played in a different Era of offense. Roethlisberger had a rating of 93.1 and 17 TDs and 11 INTs as a rookie.
Jones was far better and more consistent than either Allen or Manning and similar to Roethlisberger as a rookie. But he was a rookie. Complain all you want about him, but let's use logical, factual comparisons. Let's compare his rookie numbers to other rookie QB's results, not veterans.
RE: RE: This is one of those debates where I have a hard time seeing
Since both QBs are mediocre, we might as well play Jones.
Is that it? Snooze.
So I’ve been reading that Trey Lance has looked great in camp. Anyone seen Hi. In action or care to comment?
Thought I’d change the topic to something more interesting. Speaking as a Giants fan.
Huge microscope will be on Lance. You basically gave up on your franchise guy for an unproven rookie.
He has a great surrounding cast around him. He should have a pretty big year.
This is one I am also very interested in monitoring. I've come to really respect Shanahan. Lance has a lot of nice traits and he is in a ideal situation to have the best chance. His upside will be determined by if he can throw from the pocket. I expect Shanny to move him a lot with PA with simpler reads and progress accordingly.
RE: RE: RE: RE: half a decade is a lifetime in the NFL
especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games). Go look at Josh Allen's game logs from his first year. He topped 200 yards 6 times in 12 games with 245 being his high. He had ZERO good games as a rookie.
Or better yet, compare Jones to Manning's rookie year. Eli had a zero passer rating one game. And another at 17. He had 6 TDs and 9 INTs in 7 starts. His BEST game was 201 yards. Jones had 24 and 12 in 12 starts and his worst rating was 35.2. His second worst was 49.4. And Eli had a far better supporting cast.
Manning's rating for the year was 55.3, Allen's was 67.9, Jones' was 87.7. And don't say Manning played in a different Era of offense. Roethlisberger had a rating of 93.1 and 17 TDs and 11 INTs as a rookie.
Jones was far better and more consistent than either Allen or Manning and similar to Roethlisberger as a rookie. But he was a rookie. Complain all you want about him, but let's use logical, factual comparisons. Let's compare his rookie numbers to other rookie QB's results, not veterans.
Here believes that Daniel Jones will start and finish all 17 games? I think it’s highly likely that either due to injury or performance he won’t. And so it makes sense for Taylor to get some reps in with the first stringers.
Here believes that Daniel Jones will start and finish all 17 games? I think it’s highly likely that either due to injury or performance he won’t. And so it makes sense for Taylor to get some reps in with the first stringers.
Barring injury - I think Jones gets 6 games to show anything. If we are 1-5 or 0-6, a move will be made.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
I certainly don’t think Jones has the skills of those QBs. But I do think Jones would be a better player with their situations. Obviously not as good as them, but better.
Little more on the Eli/Ben comparison. I remember I had a debate with a good friend on this.
Steelers ran the ball 38 times a game. They had the number one defense. They also ran a extremely simple passing offense had Ben read one side of the field.
TC took a different approach and he did not have the OL (yet) nor a defense close (yet) to pull it off. He sent Eli in with the full arsenal and eventually he came around and the team got a lot better. They ran 26 times a game that year.
TC actually wanted a team like those Steelers and they actually accomplished it. Your 2008 Giants.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
Taylor is a vet journeyman fill-in, back up qb, nothing more. He's here because we didn't draft a qb and we can't afford any of the legit starters who might be available. This is Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum between two backups- flip a coin.
We've gone over this so much for 4 years. I'm pretty sure it's not going to workout for Daniel Jones with the Giants. Some of it, is not his fault. Too much of it is.
He drew a very bad hand when he was drafted by the Giants. Horrible GM, bad HC's, bottom 3rd of the league roster on both sides of the ball around him. Horrible offensive line play. All of that is true. He's as tough a QB as Phil and Eli and that's the highest praise I can give.
But it's also true that the NFL game is too fast for him. He may have a Duke education and Duke IQ but his football IQ is low. He lacks the instincts and sixth sense that the great QB's have to feel the rush and to know when the ball needs to get out. Some of, certainly not all or even most, of the bad OL play is on him.
He doesn't diagnose defenses or where the pressure is going to come to from pre snap. Post snap he locks in one receiver he expects to be open and if it's not there he panics. He is awful when forced to improvise or throw on the run. All of that is not going to be cured by better players around him.
This GM and HC didn't draft him. They declined his 5th year option and I think they're going to move on from him at the end of the 2022 season the latest.
Which I’ll define as those with an avg yards per pass above 7.5.
In 2020 and 2021, he reached that 7.5 YPA level 8 times, about the same rate as in 2019.
How about this idea? He is what he is. Those 2019 outings don’t represent his future but are natural outcomes from any athletes variability in performance.
Players have good games, bad games, and those in between. There’s no reason to believe the good games are what the player “really is.” They are his high points.
Here believes that Daniel Jones will start and finish all 17 games? I think it’s highly likely that either due to injury or performance he won’t. And so it makes sense for Taylor to get some reps in with the first stringers.
Barring injury - I think Jones gets 6 games to show anything. If we are 1-5 or 0-6, a move will be made.
Injury? Always tough to predict.
The Giants face some awful opponents, esp early in the season. They may be at .500 in October despite being lousy.
We've gone over this so much for 4 years. I'm pretty sure it's not going to workout for Daniel Jones with the Giants. Some of it, is not his fault. Too much of it is.
He drew a very bad hand when he was drafted by the Giants. Horrible GM, bad HC's, bottom 3rd of the league roster on both sides of the ball around him. Horrible offensive line play. All of that is true. He's as tough a QB as Phil and Eli and that's the highest praise I can give.
But it's also true that the NFL game is too fast for him. He may have a Duke education and Duke IQ but his football IQ is low. He lacks the instincts and sixth sense that the great QB's have to feel the rush and to know when the ball needs to get out. Some of, certainly not all or even most, of the bad OL play is on him.
He doesn't diagnose defenses or where the pressure is going to come to from pre snap. Post snap he locks in one receiver he expects to be open and if it's not there he panics. He is awful when forced to improvise or throw on the run. All of that is not going to be cured by better players around him.
This GM and HC didn't draft him. They declined his 5th year option and I think they're going to move on from him at the end of the 2022 season the latest.
I'm a Daniel Jones fan and hoping he performs well this season. But I'm afraid your description is pretty much dead-on.
I don't get the logic of wanting to win the division title, which will eliminate any chance at getting one of the very good QB's in this class, versus just letting the string play out.
Jones will start struggle, probably confirm any and all doubts about him and we can move on.
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
Agree on all counts, and that isn't so much praise for Taylor as it my view of where Jones ranks right now. I think Jones still has the potential to be better than Taylor, but so what? That places him in the middle of the league.
My view from day one has been Taylor should be given a fair shot to win the job because he is the only QB on the roster likely to be here next year. He is cost effective and a likely bridge to the next QB, assuming they draft one next year. On the very outside shot Jones gets a 2nd contract, Taylor should still be here as the backup due to cost.
Then given Jones' injury history thus far, it makes sense to have a backup primed to play.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I like Jackson and thought he was the only QB to take that year, but only by way of trading down and waiting out the others. He did not make sense at the top of the round, but later, sure. But, I don't see him making this team significantly better mainly because with our lack of playmakers at WR and TE for the last few years, he isn't likely to make much of a difference. His legs would help, but I think he would get killed, like Jones.
As for Lawrence, I still think he will be worlds better, But, right now, with this team, I'm not so sure.
Exactly what the coaching staff is giving him..pass rush galore from all over the lot..He has to learn to see with his ears,as well as his eyes...You can hear those big guys grunting,etc trying to run over any lineman trying to stop them getting to Jones..It wouldn't surprise me if the ground felt like a small earthquake is happening..
Taylor getting first team reps before 2nd pre season game basically
I don't get the logic of wanting to win the division title, which will eliminate any chance at getting one of the very good QB's in this class, versus just letting the string play out.
Jones will start struggle, probably confirm any and all doubts about him and we can move on.
It is a bit paradoxical for sure. But the NFCE is so ordinary as a conference, I really think we could win it with a better QB.
It's been such a long time winning anything that I would be willing to go for the NFCE; and still trust we could get a better QB because the 2023 QB class - right now - appears pretty deep in quality.
Further, I'm not sold on Bryce Young. So, missing out on him isn't really missing out in my book. Stroud is a different story. But if we can't grab him, there may potentially be 6-9 others who are worth a first-round investment.
barring injury to DJ, Taylor is the backup qb this season!
the comments on this thread about Taylor being the new starter or this is some kind of competition with DJ is stupidity. I can’t believe even children in NY area are as stupid and ignorant as illustrated here who seemingly aremaintaining otherwise. Eric should clean out the Augean stable he is now maintaining. But I guess it’s beyond even Hercules.
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games).
WHy do you get to cherry pick his stats? And can we stop with the Eli Manning crap?
Let's put things into context. Eli played 15 years ago. Eli got the start week 11 on .500 team that was awful the year before. Eli played on a team that went 11-5 his first full season.
Jones on the other hand has been playing on a bottom of the barrel team . He turned the ball over 39 times and only won 4 games. He put up some meaningless numbers in garbage time. So what?
I have to laugh at all these people blaming coaching. Garrett was not Vince Lombardi but a decent coach. Further, I always said the D Jones is in the conversation with some of Giants back-ups than he is with Eli, Josh allen , Herbert etc.
RE: barring injury to DJ, Taylor is the backup qb this season!
the comments on this thread about Taylor being the new starter or this is some kind of competition with DJ is stupidity. I can’t believe even children in NY area are as stupid and ignorant as illustrated here who seemingly aremaintaining otherwise. Eric should clean out the Augean stable he is now maintaining. But I guess it’s beyond even Hercules.
I think most agree that the starting job has been preordained to Jones. And TT is the hired back-up.
That doesn't mean, however, that's the best decision.
I don't mind grading Jones on a curve because he's been a Giant the last 3 years. He's been surrounded by a bad team.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
I don't mind grading Jones on a curve because he's been a Giant the last 3 years. He's been surrounded by a bad team.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I don't even think Jones doesn't suck...but maybe he doesn't suck as bad as everyone else and he is on a rookie contract. If Engram didn't cost us an entire season by dropping a good pass, I'd probably be more forgiving. Golladay and Solder just flat out robbed us.
I don't mind grading Jones on a curve because he's been a Giant the last 3 years. He's been surrounded by a bad team.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I don’t think that’s an unfair point - I have said a lot this off-season that our WRs are better than what most have said. OL is a little different since it’s a lot of 1-1 battles.
But I do agree our WRs sometimes get too much shit.
And no Engram doesn’t deserve any slack. He couldn’t block or catch haha.
I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
If the goal is to win games, I think TT gives us a better shot than DJ IMO.
I think so, too.
Both are game manager types, right? The tiebreaker for me would come down to this question - who is going to make the fewest mistakes and potentially do enough off-script to create points. TT would check both boxes for me.
Where is the Daniel Jones that went 26-36 for 336 and 4 total TDs in his first career start. Where is THAT guy.
Any player can have ONE great game. It takes more than that to have a good career. Plus, no tape on the rookie. Once DC's got film, they exposed his weaknesses.
Mitch Trubisky once threw for 354 yards and 6 TDs in one game
That is why all of the Eli comparisons and the others.
So there are a couple of things. D JOnes athleticism seems to confuse a lot of Jones boosters.
Yes D Jones is very athletic. He can run the RPO. He is more athletic than Eli Manning. But going a step further he is also more athletic than Peyton Manning ; TOm Brady and Joe Montana in his prime as well. Does that mean he is a better NFL QB though? Of course not. Tom Brady is slow ; he has a bad physique; but his decision making, and accuracy is what makes up for it and those reasons are why him and those guys are the greats. Great QBs have athleticism or avg. but, they have instincts for the game and what it takes to win; which Jones so sorely lacks.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
Jones is not accurate. This is an athletic trait a QB must have.
Jones is not consistent, and cannot repeat good execution often enough. This is something the greats, like Brady, can do. Every drop back, every delivery, is identical for Brady et al. Jones is sloppy. This is an athletic deficit.
Jones doesn't react like a great athlete. He is slow to react, panics, and makes killer mistakes. These are athletic deficits.
There are more. But Jones' problems are at least partially athletic. And the deficits he has are killers. He can't ever be an elite QB and we should have moved on this year
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
YPC stands for yards per carry. In 2020, 91 players had 50 or more rushing attempts, including 14 QBs. Daniel Jones averaged more yards per carry than any of them. His rookie season, the only player with 45 rushes who averaged more YPC was Lamar Jackson. That’s one example of his physical ability. We’re not talking about someone completely devoid of talent.
As for your points on team talent, I’m not sure how that applies to the Giants situation. During Jones’ 3 seasons as a professional, the Giants have literally zero parts of their offense that that are comparable to the Chiefs or Rams, including coaching. In hindsight, Pat Shurmer looks like Bill Walsh compared to the idiots cosplaying as head coach and offensive coordinator the past 2 seasons. Some people on BBI complain that Daniel Jones needs everything around him to be great in order for him to succeed. It’s entirely possible that he will have played 4 seasons as a Giants and not had 1 fucking thing be solid, let alone great. You know how the Niners and Chiefs knew that Alex Smith wasn’t the answer? You know how the Rams knew Jared Goff was no longer the answer? They had most of the surrounding pieces, but were still limited by the QBs’ ceiling.
You can’t properly assess a QB when he’s in a situation where nothing works. Daniel Jones will be gone after this season. I truly hope this regime can put something in place to support the next QB they get. Otherwise, we’ll be saying the same ol’ shit in 3 or 4 years.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
There are other QBs that will likely be available besides Young.
Again you're trading a short term win for a Division title versus a chance at getting a real difference maker QB and SB chances that will be playing on a rookie contract
Jimmy G ain't getting this franchise to a SB within the next 2-3 years, it'll take at least that long to rebuild the roster from the disaster beforehand.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
More cherry picking of individual games. Jones was once about equal to Mahomes when Mahomes had a lousy game. And Mahomes also had a lousy game once. Ergo Jones can be as good as Mahomes.
Aah the statistical and logical errors….
I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
Jason Garrett sucked balls as a coach for us. The NFL doesn’t want him now neither does the NCAA.
Another name that shouldn’t be mentioned here. And please stop calling people Jones defenders. It’s old and stupid. If there are people here who believe in him, who cares?
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
All quarterbacks make bad plays. Using 1 play to support a narrative about DJ seems to be very he trend lately.
From practice, and film study, coaches know more about these players than we can ever hope to. If these plays being identified happen to a great degree he won’t be the quarterback for long.
As to Taylor getting reps with the 1 s, this happens every year, including the year s of Eli, according to Victor Cruz.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Let me see if I have this right.
Shurmur sucks, Garrett is better.
Shurmur had some success running an actual NFL caliber offense with Jones but Garrett, in all his wisdom and superior coaching, decided Jones sucks so I'm going to run an offense from 1985 and get myself fired, then effectively retire from coaching. And in this process, he's somehow a better coach?
Cherry on top, Kenny Golladay, a player that looked like Detroit didn't even want to keep, is now the final indicator of how good or bad Jones is? It couldn't possibly be that he only had 1 good NFL season that was worth what we paid, which came 2 years prior to paying him?
RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
RE: RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
That's all fine, but for one thing. It is not abundantly clear who the best player is at QB. Assuming it is Jones or handing him that role because he's the incumbent is wrong, especially for a new regime. If their determination is that he is truly the #1, then I say go with it. But if there is any front office influence, or anybfsctors other than playbon the field, then that's a mistake.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
I don't think Taylor is better than Jones but have a feeling
Taylor has the ability to get the Offense into the end zone more often when they get down there. Not a lot mind you, but moreso than Jones who hasn't exhibited any of the features to be decent at that since his rookie year.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
By most media reports, which admittedly are limited, Taylor has looked better in practice. One could argue he looked better in the pre-season game as well. He was more decisive and comfortable in the pocket.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
I guess I struggle with the Taylor being here next year angle. He's signed for 2 years at backup money so I want him to be the backup next year, not the starter. If the Giants stink again and we select a QB in the 1st round, i'd like to think the rookie will earn the starting job out of the gates. If not, maybe it will take a month. Either way, Taylor or some other vet being here shouldn't change how we approach the rookie and when the player should become the full time starter.
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
Having Taylor here for 2 years was a very smart move
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
for any competitive team, but I'm fine with management giving him a shot. That shot is not a guaranteed season-long try-out. If he struggles, Daboll should and will give Tyrod a chance.
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
fair or unfair we are beyond that now. If we start 0-2 and the offense looks anemic, i'd end it. You aren't going to get a much better chance to show you are the goods than at home vs. Carolina.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
RE: RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
with a rookie QB in Dallas put up 26 ppg.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I think you also have to consider SB. Shurmur had him for 13 games in 2019. JG had him for 2 and last year SB really was not back.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
I think Shurmur and Garrett are both capable offensive
Coaches and think their long term track record in the NFL supports that.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
In my opinion it comes down to: can he find the open receiver and get the ball out of his hand fast enough? Has his failure to improve in this area been due to coaching turnover and a poor supporting cast or will he always be limited by an inability to process things fast enough. He's a smart guy, so I think he will do fine when it comes to pre-snap reads and as he gains more experience his decision-making in all circumstances will naturally improve, but intelligence and mental processing speed have about as much to do with each other as a marathon and the hundred yard dash. Hopefully his coaches and supporting cast will do enough for him that we can reasonably judge: did he get the ball out of his hand and into the hands of the open receiver fast enough?
RE: RE: Does Daniel Jones at QB keep the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens,
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
OK. Jones didn't really play well ....ever. In the NFL rookie Qb's are expected to be terrible and, all you can hope for is some flashes. I guess you can say Jones gave you that but, under what circumstances? Always playing from behind -- in many cases by 2 plus scores -- from the turnovers HE HIMSELF created with defense content to give him everything underneath / not give up a big play and blow the lead.
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Coaching is not the same standard as players where you can say an unsigned free agent is "out of the NFL" for not being good enough.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
RE: RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I honestly don't know why people even want to bring up
his rookie campaign so much. Besides Shurmur being one of the best at getting production out of the QBs he coaches I feel many are overlooking the most important fact.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
Quote:
Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
I am going to look to Daniel Jones for confirmation of Garrett being worse than Shurmur. A guy who managed to get production out Case Keenum . I don't know what Surmur does to make what otherwise would be back-up QBs--and make no mistake that is what D Jones is-- look like legit starters with upside but, he is what he is.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
"Furthermore, any first-team reps for Taylor would “absolutely not” be a reflection on how Daniel Jones has played to date"
I think the QB controversy will happen eventually but lets not fabricate it either.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
Yeah I don't think Taylor is particularly good. I do think Jones is that bad. And I would like to see more winning football. So I'd like to see TT starting even though I know that will never happen. Well not until the team loses with Jones starting
He and Jones are near the bottom of the league in quality. But Taylor just brings more quality.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
Quote:
is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
I m taking liberties here, but from your consistent take on Jones I thinking you would rank him somewhere in the high 40 s low 50 s as a quarterback; most all other starters and several back ups would be ranked higher.
If this turns out to be true, it casts severe doubt on the team of Schoen and Daboll, to evaluate talent and just throw away a season on someone with no potential to be anything but what you claim him to be.
+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
That is not true. In a number of his reports, Sy stated that TT looked more decisive and was the better QB that day. That is a fact.
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+1. Sy's reports do not confirm Taylor is better than Jones. If anything they confirm they both are low average QB's. I dislike people making stuff up and citing it as fact.
That is not true. In a number of his reports, Sy stated that TT looked more decisive and was the better QB that day. That is a fact.
How dare you actually read those daily reports... ;)
I was going to pull the quotes, but it's likely not worth it...
I m taking liberties here, but from your consistent take on Jones I thinking you would rank him somewhere in the high 40 s low 50 s as a quarterback; most all other starters and several back ups would be ranked higher.
If this turns out to be true, it casts severe doubt on the team of Schoen and Daboll, to evaluate talent and just throw away a season on someone with no potential to be anything but what you claim him to be.
I never looked at it with that much granularity. I try to keep it as Jones being a starter vs the other starters in the league.
When I do that, it seems reasonable to rank Jones as a player in the bottom third of the league amongst his peers.
Yeah, I think the Overton Window on Jones has shifted. Nowadays, those claiming he can eventually be as good as Kirk Cousins look like polyannas.
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what does that tell you? Sometimes, the answers are right in front of you.
Yeah, I think the Overton Window on Jones has shifted. Nowadays, those claiming he can eventually be as good as Kirk Cousins look like polyannas.
haha...
In that case in order to be competitive, we need great defense and a strong run grade.
I think the defense baring injuries will be top ten
So we need an O line that can run block and Barkley to stay healthy and return to rookie form. This is also possible.
We don't have any quarterback that can carry this team. It's a team sport we have to count on other elements to carry the team and not the quarterback.
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What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
Taylor has better pocket awareness than Jones which would probably be beneficial for us… but there’s a reason why no one ever saw him as a QB of the future guy. Lacks arm strength as well.
I am no hurry to hand him the reigns. If Jones sucks for 3-4 games, then fine.
You want to know what you have in Toney, Robinson, even if KG has anything for you and it's hard to do that when you have a QB that reads the field poorly and zeroes in on his first reads.
To me starting Taylor is much more about not letting Jones drag down the performance of other players that are more important to evaluate than Jones Vs. over-evaluating a player in Jones that has probably shown more than enough to know it isn't going to click for him.
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In comment 15782194 UConn4523 said:
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What’s it based on? I’ve asked before and you haven’t answered. Since Jones was drafted he’s been better than Taylor, who hasn’t been good and can’t stay healthy.
It’s fine if you think Jones sucks, I do. But stating Taylor is better is bullshit. He hasn’t done anything in 5 years.
I thought I did address this. Taylor has a better QBR, TD/INT ratio, YPA, AY/A.
I think you challenged the results because Taylor hasn't done anything the last four years. Well, of course he hasn't. He's been hurt a ton and backed-up Watson, Herbert and Mayfield.
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
Tyrod was hurt the 1st half of last season, but came back for the 2nd half. He played so poorly he was benched for Davis Mills, and Mills was announced the starter for the remainder of the season. It wasn't simply he was hurt, he also sucked.
I find it funny now that saying Jones isn't the guy, but he's better than Tyrod, has become "supporting" Jones
So just so were clear, you are going off his 2017 production, do I have that right?
I'm going of TT's career averages.
He was the starter in Cleveland in 2018 until he got hurt. Which paved the way for Mayfield, their #1 pick.
He signed as the back-up to Phillip Rivers in 2019.
He was the starter for the Chargers in 2020 but punctured his lung. Which led to the Herbert taking the wheel and never looking back.
In 2021, Taylor got hurt again as a starter for the Texans. And that paved the way for Davis Mills.
So, with the injuries (a definite concern) and the QBs he was backing up, Taylor just had fewer opportunities the last four years.
Based on what I saw in the Pats game, coupled with Sy's camp reports, I don't think TT has lost much since 2017. He's moving great and seems capable of making most throws.
Added up, yes, I feel good about my position that Taylor is a better QB option than Jones.
Its perfectly fine to think Jones isn't good. Its also fine to call Taylor what he is. What is this so difficult? Do you care about BBI clout that much?
How the Bills made the playoffs that year is pretty amazing and a great job by that coaching staff.
JS knows actually what he is getting. Great teammate, good leader, capable starter with limitations and injury concerns.
Good backup option to take over if Jones is injured or is so bad BD has to make a change maintain credibility as a HC.
We'll see.
Anyway not sure it matters all that much. We know what Taylor is. There is still some slight doubt on Jones based on circumstances the past 2 years, and better stats and overall play his rookie year. That means there is still potential upside to starting him, as relatively little as people believe it to be. If Jones doesn't progress we move on. We are rebuilding and I don't see this team being much above .500 this year anyway.
This is about 2022 decisions and either they're getting in on DJ or he's out the door so they can move forward.
They also signed him this year, so maybe they thought he is the guy?
There were any number of reasons to let TT walk. He had been the starter, and Buff was clearly going with Allen, so getting rid of the former starter eliminates any QB controversy if Allen struggled. It isn’t that uncommon.
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had Taylor in Buffalo back in 2017 and got rid of him because he wasn't the guy.
They also signed him this year, so maybe they thought he is the guy?
There were any number of reasons to let TT walk. He had been the starter, and Buff was clearly going with Allen, so getting rid of the former starter eliminates any QB controversy if Allen struggled. It isn’t that uncommon.
Oh? They signed him as a competent backup, which you realize we haven't had in quite some time. He's 33 now and hasn't done squat in 5 years. He's not the guy.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
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especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
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is a better QB than Jones and he should start for NYG. And Sy's camp reports seem to suggest that Taylor has indeed been the better QB.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
Yeah I don't think Taylor is particularly good. I do think Jones is that bad. And I would like to see more winning football. So I'd like to see TT starting even though I know that will never happen. Well not until the team loses with Jones starting
I cannot speak for Sy, but I don't think his write-ups suggest Taylor should start. He said he is the best backup we have had. A pretty low bar.
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especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
This. 100% truth.
Who has been "snake-bit" for his entire career.
https://www.espn.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/25834/injured-houston-texans-tyrod-taylor-yields-starting-role-to-rookie-qb-again
This is his story - play well, get injured, replaced by a young stud draft pick then on to another team.
I'm thinking history will repeat itself here, he''ll beat-out Jones (because he's better); the Giants will then draft the real franchise QB answer they need and Taylor will ride into the sunset. (For his sake, I hope he doesn't have to suffer another injury).
Who has been "snake-bit" for his entire career.
https://www.espn.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/25834/injured-houston-texans-tyrod-taylor-yields-starting-role-to-rookie-qb-again
This is his story - play well, get injured, replaced by a young stud draft pick then on to another team.
I'm thinking history will repeat itself here, he''ll beat-out Jones (because he's better); the Giants will then draft the real franchise QB answer they need and Taylor will ride into the sunset. (For his sake, I hope he doesn't have to suffer another injury).
But then he returned in November and started again. He played so much worse than Mills that he got benched for the rest of the year
Its perfectly fine to think Jones isn't good. Its also fine to call Taylor what he is. What is this so difficult? Do you care about BBI clout that much?
I'm not sure what you want me to call Taylor. I'm not saying he's a top 15 QB. Not even a top 20 QB. I'm simply saying there is enough data/evidence to support that he's a better QB than Jones.
TT has more experience than Jones, has played at a higher level than Jones, and was playing in circumstances the last four years (as enumerated) that prevented him from playing much.
And just because TT hasn't played much the last four years, doesn't mean he's lost anything. He was an average player four years ago and that's what I think he is today.
If I had my druthers, we would get very aggressive and make a move for JimG because I think the NFCE is up for grabs. Because I don't think either TT or DJ are reliable or good enough to make that happen. I just think TT would get us closer...
I cannot speak for Sy, but I don't think his write-ups suggest Taylor should start. He said he is the best backup we have had. A pretty low bar.
Sy did say TT was the best back-up we've had since Hoss.
But he has said that TT has looked better and more consistent than Jones. That's the point.
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
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but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
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but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
Perhaps. I wouldn't say Pickett is my guy so much, but I thought folks were down on a guy that had some great qualities and who had a decent chance to become a top 10 QB. And the comparisons to Jones that were stated on BBI were woefully misguided.
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you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
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In comment 15782295 UConn4523 said:
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you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
Taylor did nothing against the Patriots to suggest that. His ball placement was very poor.
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
Did you see what I wrote? I acknowledged that Pickett has not looked good in practice. However, he played well in the actual game despite the circumstances. Maybe that's his MO...
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In comment 15782325 GNewGiants said:
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In comment 15782295 UConn4523 said:
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you must have missed the part where I haven't disagreed with the assessment of Jones' rookie season (although some nuances I do). What we are talking about here is the same assessment somehow not applying to Taylor. If Taylor has been hurt and/or not good enough the past 4 years, why do I care what he did 5 years ago? On what planet does that logic make any sense?
You’re not changing these peoples minds. You’re putting up a great effort but it’s gonna be for not.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
Taylor did nothing against the Patriots to suggest that. His ball placement was very poor.
Taylor is a known quantity. He's a conservative QB with decent athleticism who doesn't turn the ball over. He can move an offense but on most days he cannot light it up. His conservative style makes him a good caddy or bridge QB.
It is foolish to think that Taylor will start the season unless Jones is hurt or really flops in camp. It is also foolish to think that he gets 8, 10 or 17 games to start so that they can "see what they have" in Jones. If he is really bad in weeks 1-3 he hasn't done anything to warrant more games. He isn't a rookie. There is a deep file on him and his abilities.
Taylor is not the long term answer, but he is likely the one who will be here next year as a starter until a rookie is ready to take over. Jones is only hear next year if he grabs the job by the throat and makes it his. I think most of us think that is possible, but highly unlikely.
Taylor did nothing against the Patriots to suggest that. His ball placement was very poor.
He could have been more accurate. But I thought he played pretty well despite not having the benefit of the ones.
How many threads did we have to put up with with posters comparing or tracking the progress of Daniel Jones versus other young QBs like Josh Allen and Justin Herbert? These were just comical.
Then the bar fell further down as the debate moved to assessing Jones' potential ceiling versus other starters like Ryan Tannehill and Kirk Cousins. These threads also fell flat on their faces.
Now it's about whether or not he looks definitively better than a journeyman QB who is on his 5th team in as many years.
Let this fabulous debate roll on...
Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
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but also a little bit funny that we wasted 3 years so far, and about to waste another, on a QB who can't demonstrably outplay Tyrod Taylor in year 4. No competent organization functions in an all or nothing binary with a playerwho is a longshot to turn it around. The Giants have become champions at squandering years.
Your guy Pickett looked pretty good the other day vs Seattle.
There is a theory floating around that Pickett may be a guy who doesn't practice well - apparently, he hasn't looked consistently good in practices - but plays well when the lights are on...
There's a few very poor practice players in the H of F...Practice,we're talking about practice..Really,practice..Love you Iverson!!
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Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
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In comment 15782332 GNewGiants said:
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Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
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Against 4th teamers. And all the practice reports I’ve read is that he’s been the third best QB. So if we go by practice reports for one team… shall we do it for other teams?
I'm not going to defend Pickett, I have my doubts about his arm strength, but you can understand a rookie struggling during his first training camp v a 4th year vet, right?
Pickett's arm is fine. True he doesn't have elite arm strength but he is as good or better than Jones in that department. Plus he is very accurate, has great ball placement and great touch and delivers a very catchable ball.
I could but college QBs are more NFL ready today than ever. Throw in that DJ is only one year older than Pickett as well. So I don’t see this huge growth for Pickett.
I agree with you on Pickett's potential, but there is a learning curve for any QB to get used to the speed of the NFL. As "NFL-ready" as any QB is, there is still a steep learning curve when it comes to NFL speed and terminology.
Jones is in his 4th year and is still struggling in practice. That is not a good sign.
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
Honest question for you or anyone who wants to take a stab. How many QBs drafted since 2017 (the year we should have thought about replacing Eli) would make us a playoff team?
Mahomes seems like everyone’s answer (but we would have had to give a boatload for him - and he would have gone to a dysfunctional team with some horrible coaching.) I am not sure we get that same player.
Herbert would be the one for me that we screwed the pooch.
Josh Allen would have been a huge question mark due to the fact he would be placed on a horrible team with horrible coaching. Not sure our staff we had would have helped him.
The rest? I don’t see anyone taken making us a serious playoff contender with the staff and GM we have had since 2017.
That might be more than Daniel Jones is… so give him the reps… find out for sure.
If Tyrod stunk as bad as Daniel in the 7 camp practices I attended I would be the first one to say, Daniel stinks but he’s better than the next option… unfortunately the next option is Tyrod and from what I saw with my own 2 eyes, he looked a little bit better than Daniel has in camp, sometimes he looked a lot better, particularly with the quick passing scheme which works best with what we have in KT, Wandale, Shep etc….
If Tyrod stunk as bad as Daniel in the 7 camp practices I attended I would be the first one to say, Daniel stinks but he’s better than the next option… unfortunately the next option is Tyrod and from what I saw with my own 2 eyes, he looked a little bit better than Daniel has in camp, sometimes he looked a lot better, particularly with the quick passing scheme which works best with what we have in KT, Wandale, Shep etc….
Wouldn’t it help Jones to have Toney and Shep as well?
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In comment 15782363 GNewGiants said
“College QBs are more NFL ready today” and yet here we are in year 4 with people saying “let’s see what we have in Jones”.
Honest question for you or anyone who wants to take a stab. How many QBs drafted since 2017 (the year we should have thought about replacing Eli) would make us a playoff team?
Mahomes seems like everyone’s answer (but we would have had to give a boatload for him - and he would have gone to a dysfunctional team with some horrible coaching.) I am not sure we get that same player.
Herbert would be the one for me that we screwed the pooch.
Josh Allen would have been a huge question mark due to the fact he would be placed on a horrible team with horrible coaching. Not sure our staff we had would have helped him.
The rest? I don’t see anyone taken making us a serious playoff contender with the staff and GM we have had since 2017.
If we’re looking at the team as currently constructed you’re probably right, but taking a QB at a different point probably changes how the roster is constructed.
If they started to look into replacing Eli in 2017 like they should have they probably put more resources into the oline instead of taking a RB.
Then we would have the perfect environment to finally gauge DJ...
If we’re looking at the team as currently constructed you’re probably right, but taking a QB at a different point probably changes how the roster is constructed.
If they started to look into replacing Eli in 2017 like they should have they probably put more resources into the oline instead of taking a RB.
Very fair points but with DG running the show, I am not confident he would have done anything right.
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
LJax? Maybe. But our team is not nearly as good as Balt and his progression would be worse since he was drafted since the coaching andnGM was that bad.
Joey B - another good choice. But again he’s downgrading big time on talent around him.
The first 3 I agree on.
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
In the hunt, yeah - I think so. But that's loose. Any sort of contender? Absolutely not.
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95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Not even close to 95%.
And the other points do not matter...we are where we are with DJ. And that is nowhere.
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Chargers and Bengals in the playoff hunt...
In the hunt, yeah - I think so. But that's loose. Any sort of contender? Absolutely not.
Yep, loose at best. But I hear you...
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Very good post.
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
Jones hasn't done himself any favors over 4 years. He has not lived up to the expectations this team has had for him any more than the rest of the poor player personnel and coaches have.
He's not a good QB no matter who you care to blame all the other problems with the team on.
And his time is almost up...
I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of people wanting to give Jones every excuse.
If you watched someone trying to ride a bike, for years, and years, and they were just bad at it, tipping over. Getting their pants caught in the wheel. It would be dumb to be like. Well the road they are riding on right now is uneven and he's riding a shitty bike and blah blah.
If you saw someone doing backflips on a bike and then all of a sudden couldn't ride then yeah, you could blame the bike and that would make sense.
The issue isn't the lack of talent around Jones. The issue is very clearly the lack of talent around Jones AND Jones. Why some of you insist that someone that has always been bad is getting like a raw deal from fans here is beyond me.
The issue isn't the lack of talent around Jones. The issue is very clearly the lack of talent around Jones AND Jones. Why some of you insist that someone that has always been bad is getting like a raw deal from fans here is beyond me.
I certainly don’t disagree with you on it being both. I’ve said I’m ready to move on from as well. So please don’t lump me there. One of the reasons why i didn’t want a QB at 5 or 7 was cause I want to build up a team.
And it’s ok to say he got a raw deal here. Even him being a bad QB - he was strapped with so much ineptness. It’s a raw deal for every player.
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Matter a lot. Because your assuming Jones is the only thing holding us back. When it fact it could be argued that many things holding the team back. When you have ineptness at..
HC level
GM level
Ownership
Lack of talent at OL
Consistently injured WR core
Every QB in the league would struggle to reach their potential. So like I said if an Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc… would not be as good as they are now. Are those QBs better than Jones? Of course they are. Not even close.
But until personnel and coaching get better - it won’t matter whose QBing. Player development for a player involves many aspects, just not the QB himself.
Jones hasn't done himself any favors over 4 years. He has not lived up to the expectations this team has had for him any more than the rest of the poor player personnel and coaches have.
He's not a good QB no matter who you care to blame all the other problems with the team on.
And his time is almost up...
And that’s fine. I don’t see that many people disagreeing with this point.
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Great post and I agree. I try but the QB guru group is one of great resilience to the truth and they lack some basic understanding of offensive football. Great persistence and enthusiasm though!
That said, if I were to give any of the QB's a shot it would be Josh Allen. That young man is a really special player. Hope Buffalo does not waste him and fixes the interior on both sides.
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In comment 15782410 bw in dc said:
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
Great post and I agree. I try but the QB guru group is one of great resilience to the truth and they lack some basic understanding of offensive football. Great persistence and enthusiasm though!
That said, if I were to give any of the QB's a shot it would be Josh Allen. That young man is a really special player. Hope Buffalo does not waste him and fixes the interior on both sides.
Agreed on all points. Although I would have loved to have landed Burrow somehow, some way... lol
The better QB should play
V
Since both QBs are mediocre, we might as well play Jones.
Is that it? Snooze.
So I’ve been reading that Trey Lance has looked great in camp. Anyone seen Hi. In action or care to comment?
Thought I’d change the topic to something more interesting. Speaking as a Giants fan.
Q: Is there a need or maybe a desire or maybe even a curiosity to see what (Quarterback) Tyrod (Taylor) can do with the first team at some point this summer?
A: Yeah, as we get going here in terms of the preseason games, we’ll talk about whatever we think is best. But I have full confidence in (Quarterback) Daniel (Jones) and full confidence in Tyrod and what his role is. Each day, we sit there and we evaluate the guys. But will he get a few reps here or there? He might.
Q: Is that any reflection on Daniel?
A: Absolutely not. No. I learned from a pretty good coach a while ago, usually he doesn’t tell those guys when he throws them in because that’s what the backup’s role is. You have to go in on a split second. You prepare like you’re a starter. But the fourth play of a game, something happens, you’re in, you got to be ready to go. So, I don’t necessarily think we’ll tell those guys when that will happen.
The better QB should play
V
Since both QBs are mediocre, we might as well play Jones.
Is that it? Snooze.
So I’ve been reading that Trey Lance has looked great in camp. Anyone seen Hi. In action or care to comment?
Thought I’d change the topic to something more interesting. Speaking as a Giants fan.
Huge microscope will be on Lance. You basically gave up on your franchise guy for an unproven rookie.
He has a great surrounding cast around him. He should have a pretty big year.
"Furthermore, any first-team reps for Taylor would “absolutely not” be a reflection on how Daniel Jones has played to date"
I think the QB controversy will happen eventually but lets not fabricate it either.
The haters won't read this....
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In comment 15782252 UConn4523 said:
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especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games). Go look at Josh Allen's game logs from his first year. He topped 200 yards 6 times in 12 games with 245 being his high. He had ZERO good games as a rookie.
Or better yet, compare Jones to Manning's rookie year. Eli had a zero passer rating one game. And another at 17. He had 6 TDs and 9 INTs in 7 starts. His BEST game was 201 yards. Jones had 24 and 12 in 12 starts and his worst rating was 35.2. His second worst was 49.4. And Eli had a far better supporting cast.
Manning's rating for the year was 55.3, Allen's was 67.9, Jones' was 87.7. And don't say Manning played in a different Era of offense. Roethlisberger had a rating of 93.1 and 17 TDs and 11 INTs as a rookie.
Jones was far better and more consistent than either Allen or Manning and similar to Roethlisberger as a rookie. But he was a rookie. Complain all you want about him, but let's use logical, factual comparisons. Let's compare his rookie numbers to other rookie QB's results, not veterans.
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What is being debated. Is it:
The better QB should play
V
Since both QBs are mediocre, we might as well play Jones.
Is that it? Snooze.
So I’ve been reading that Trey Lance has looked great in camp. Anyone seen Hi. In action or care to comment?
Thought I’d change the topic to something more interesting. Speaking as a Giants fan.
Huge microscope will be on Lance. You basically gave up on your franchise guy for an unproven rookie.
He has a great surrounding cast around him. He should have a pretty big year.
This is one I am also very interested in monitoring. I've come to really respect Shanahan. Lance has a lot of nice traits and he is in a ideal situation to have the best chance. His upside will be determined by if he can throw from the pocket. I expect Shanny to move him a lot with PA with simpler reads and progress accordingly.
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In comment 15782284 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 15782252 UConn4523 said:
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especially when people that like Jones aren't allowed to point to his positives from his rookie season in 2019 when he had a better offensive coach, and some playmakers that were more athletic than a D2 team.
Oh brother. It has been pointed out- repeatedly- and the rejoinder has come -repeatedly.
I will repeat it one more time- several good games against shitty defenses and several bad against any team that was .500 or better in 2019. Once the DC's had some film on him, they have exploited his flaws relentlessly to the point where virtually every game is meh. He's had several different OC's, and no one has been able to find the magic scheme that will unlock this wunderkinder's supposed talents. Add Daboll to the list. It's the same story as in Duke- the scheme is no good, the receivers are no good, the running backs are no good, he doesn't get enough time- in other words, the basic set of excuses for any meh qb.
Now it is staring you in the face that he is not clearly beating out a journeyman, work-a-day, NFL career backup qb.
Jones is what he is: a zero star recruit in college who got where he is through hard work, perseverance, being a good egg and amazing good luck. Unfortunately, that will only get you so far, and in our case, that isn't far enough.
Daniel Jones had four good games in 2019 and people act like he was in the running for ROY
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games). Go look at Josh Allen's game logs from his first year. He topped 200 yards 6 times in 12 games with 245 being his high. He had ZERO good games as a rookie.
Or better yet, compare Jones to Manning's rookie year. Eli had a zero passer rating one game. And another at 17. He had 6 TDs and 9 INTs in 7 starts. His BEST game was 201 yards. Jones had 24 and 12 in 12 starts and his worst rating was 35.2. His second worst was 49.4. And Eli had a far better supporting cast.
Manning's rating for the year was 55.3, Allen's was 67.9, Jones' was 87.7. And don't say Manning played in a different Era of offense. Roethlisberger had a rating of 93.1 and 17 TDs and 11 INTs as a rookie.
Jones was far better and more consistent than either Allen or Manning and similar to Roethlisberger as a rookie. But he was a rookie. Complain all you want about him, but let's use logical, factual comparisons. Let's compare his rookie numbers to other rookie QB's results, not veterans.
good lord...
Barring injury - I think Jones gets 6 games to show anything. If we are 1-5 or 0-6, a move will be made.
Injury? Always tough to predict.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
Steelers ran the ball 38 times a game. They had the number one defense. They also ran a extremely simple passing offense had Ben read one side of the field.
TC took a different approach and he did not have the OL (yet) nor a defense close (yet) to pull it off. He sent Eli in with the full arsenal and eventually he came around and the team got a lot better. They ran 26 times a game that year.
TC actually wanted a team like those Steelers and they actually accomplished it. Your 2008 Giants.
UConn is playing a bit dumb here and not accounting for the circumstances TT has played under the last four years.
I don't believe anyone is saying anything other than TT is a better short-term solution for this team than Jones.
He drew a very bad hand when he was drafted by the Giants. Horrible GM, bad HC's, bottom 3rd of the league roster on both sides of the ball around him. Horrible offensive line play. All of that is true. He's as tough a QB as Phil and Eli and that's the highest praise I can give.
But it's also true that the NFL game is too fast for him. He may have a Duke education and Duke IQ but his football IQ is low. He lacks the instincts and sixth sense that the great QB's have to feel the rush and to know when the ball needs to get out. Some of, certainly not all or even most, of the bad OL play is on him.
He doesn't diagnose defenses or where the pressure is going to come to from pre snap. Post snap he locks in one receiver he expects to be open and if it's not there he panics. He is awful when forced to improvise or throw on the run. All of that is not going to be cured by better players around him.
This GM and HC didn't draft him. They declined his 5th year option and I think they're going to move on from him at the end of the 2022 season the latest.
In 2020 and 2021, he reached that 7.5 YPA level 8 times, about the same rate as in 2019.
How about this idea? He is what he is. Those 2019 outings don’t represent his future but are natural outcomes from any athletes variability in performance.
Players have good games, bad games, and those in between. There’s no reason to believe the good games are what the player “really is.” They are his high points.
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Here believes that Daniel Jones will start and finish all 17 games? I think it’s highly likely that either due to injury or performance he won’t. And so it makes sense for Taylor to get some reps in with the first stringers.
Barring injury - I think Jones gets 6 games to show anything. If we are 1-5 or 0-6, a move will be made.
Injury? Always tough to predict.
He drew a very bad hand when he was drafted by the Giants. Horrible GM, bad HC's, bottom 3rd of the league roster on both sides of the ball around him. Horrible offensive line play. All of that is true. He's as tough a QB as Phil and Eli and that's the highest praise I can give.
But it's also true that the NFL game is too fast for him. He may have a Duke education and Duke IQ but his football IQ is low. He lacks the instincts and sixth sense that the great QB's have to feel the rush and to know when the ball needs to get out. Some of, certainly not all or even most, of the bad OL play is on him.
He doesn't diagnose defenses or where the pressure is going to come to from pre snap. Post snap he locks in one receiver he expects to be open and if it's not there he panics. He is awful when forced to improvise or throw on the run. All of that is not going to be cured by better players around him.
This GM and HC didn't draft him. They declined his 5th year option and I think they're going to move on from him at the end of the 2022 season the latest.
I'm a Daniel Jones fan and hoping he performs well this season. But I'm afraid your description is pretty much dead-on.
Jones will start struggle, probably confirm any and all doubts about him and we can move on.
That's obviously not the plan. But it makes sense for him to get some reps with the first team for a variety of smart reasons.
My view from day one has been Taylor should be given a fair shot to win the job because he is the only QB on the roster likely to be here next year. He is cost effective and a likely bridge to the next QB, assuming they draft one next year. On the very outside shot Jones gets a 2nd contract, Taylor should still be here as the backup due to cost.
Then given Jones' injury history thus far, it makes sense to have a backup primed to play.
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
As for Lawrence, I still think he will be worlds better, But, right now, with this team, I'm not so sure.
Jones will start struggle, probably confirm any and all doubts about him and we can move on.
It is a bit paradoxical for sure. But the NFCE is so ordinary as a conference, I really think we could win it with a better QB.
It's been such a long time winning anything that I would be willing to go for the NFCE; and still trust we could get a better QB because the 2023 QB class - right now - appears pretty deep in quality.
Further, I'm not sold on Bryce Young. So, missing out on him isn't really missing out in my book. Stroud is a different story. But if we can't grab him, there may potentially be 6-9 others who are worth a first-round investment.
Can we stop with this 4 good games crap? (And actually it was 5 games out of 12 over 300 yards, 4 exceptional games).
WHy do you get to cherry pick his stats? And can we stop with the Eli Manning crap?
Let's put things into context. Eli played 15 years ago. Eli got the start week 11 on .500 team that was awful the year before. Eli played on a team that went 11-5 his first full season.
Jones on the other hand has been playing on a bottom of the barrel team . He turned the ball over 39 times and only won 4 games. He put up some meaningless numbers in garbage time. So what?
I have to laugh at all these people blaming coaching. Garrett was not Vince Lombardi but a decent coach. Further, I always said the D Jones is in the conversation with some of Giants back-ups than he is with Eli, Josh allen , Herbert etc.
I think most agree that the starting job has been preordained to Jones. And TT is the hired back-up.
That doesn't mean, however, that's the best decision.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I don't even think Jones doesn't suck...but maybe he doesn't suck as bad as everyone else and he is on a rookie contract. If Engram didn't cost us an entire season by dropping a good pass, I'd probably be more forgiving. Golladay and Solder just flat out robbed us.
But do y'all give the same benefit of the doubt to the other 10 guys? Does Nate Solder get the benefit of the doubt because Jones is bad? How about Golladay? How about Engram?
Is Jones the only player who doesn't suck that's been a Giant for the last three years?
I don’t think that’s an unfair point - I have said a lot this off-season that our WRs are better than what most have said. OL is a little different since it’s a lot of 1-1 battles.
But I do agree our WRs sometimes get too much shit.
And no Engram doesn’t deserve any slack. He couldn’t block or catch haha.
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I have ceded the point Jones has not been surrounded by the best talent, coaching, and management (ownership incl).
But do you really want to challenge the differential in physical skills the players I mentioned have over Jones? (I'll carve TrevLaw out of this for now...)
Has it occurred to you that those QBs, while in better circumstances, have simultaneously lifted the team because they have more tools to do so? Do you think Jones can make even half the throws that Mahomes, Herbert or Allen can make when they are off-script? Because right now a lot of the success of an NFL team is based on off-script ability.
Do you think Jones runs as well as Allen or LJax? Do you think he holds up in the pocket as well as any of them?
Last year, Burrow played with an OL that was probably as bad - statistically - as any Jones had had. Yet, Burrow made play after play after play after play to get to a SB. In his rookie year, Herbert had the poorest pass blocking OL in football. Yet, he was great against pressure and had an all-time rookie campaign.
If Jones had any plus skills like the aforementioned, I would be bullish on the guy. But I continue to see a player with average skills only. And in order for him to possibly reach the success we want it's basically going to take a team building miracle.
Frankly, I think it's a bit embarrassing that posters can detect the obvious differences in skills between Jones and some of QBs I have mentioned.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
Agreed. Good post.
I think so, too.
Both are game manager types, right? The tiebreaker for me would come down to this question - who is going to make the fewest mistakes and potentially do enough off-script to create points. TT would check both boxes for me.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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some think DJ has been an innocent bystander, some think he's been a contributor to the train going off the rails
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
certainly plenty of slices of blame pie to go around. IMO, his slice is big enough to question his status as a starter sooner than later
DJ ceiling is a back up to a back up if he continues to turn the ball over
Where is the Daniel Jones that went 26-36 for 336 and 4 total TDs in his first career start. Where is THAT guy.
Where is the Daniel Jones that went 26-36 for 336 and 4 total TDs in his first career start. Where is THAT guy.
Any player can have ONE great game. It takes more than that to have a good career. Plus, no tape on the rookie. Once DC's got film, they exposed his weaknesses.
Against Belichick I believe too!
So there are a couple of things. D JOnes athleticism seems to confuse a lot of Jones boosters.
Yes D Jones is very athletic. He can run the RPO. He is more athletic than Eli Manning. But going a step further he is also more athletic than Peyton Manning ; TOm Brady and Joe Montana in his prime as well. Does that mean he is a better NFL QB though? Of course not. Tom Brady is slow ; he has a bad physique; but his decision making, and accuracy is what makes up for it and those reasons are why him and those guys are the greats. Great QBs have athleticism or avg. but, they have instincts for the game and what it takes to win; which Jones so sorely lacks.
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
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In comment 15782410 bw in dc said:
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
Ignore the bad and everything is good!
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
Jones is not consistent, and cannot repeat good execution often enough. This is something the greats, like Brady, can do. Every drop back, every delivery, is identical for Brady et al. Jones is sloppy. This is an athletic deficit.
Jones doesn't react like a great athlete. He is slow to react, panics, and makes killer mistakes. These are athletic deficits.
There are more. But Jones' problems are at least partially athletic. And the deficits he has are killers. He can't ever be an elite QB and we should have moved on this year
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
YPC stands for yards per carry. In 2020, 91 players had 50 or more rushing attempts, including 14 QBs. Daniel Jones averaged more yards per carry than any of them. His rookie season, the only player with 45 rushes who averaged more YPC was Lamar Jackson. That’s one example of his physical ability. We’re not talking about someone completely devoid of talent.
As for your points on team talent, I’m not sure how that applies to the Giants situation. During Jones’ 3 seasons as a professional, the Giants have literally zero parts of their offense that that are comparable to the Chiefs or Rams, including coaching. In hindsight, Pat Shurmer looks like Bill Walsh compared to the idiots cosplaying as head coach and offensive coordinator the past 2 seasons. Some people on BBI complain that Daniel Jones needs everything around him to be great in order for him to succeed. It’s entirely possible that he will have played 4 seasons as a Giants and not had 1 fucking thing be solid, let alone great. You know how the Niners and Chiefs knew that Alex Smith wasn’t the answer? You know how the Rams knew Jared Goff was no longer the answer? They had most of the surrounding pieces, but were still limited by the QBs’ ceiling.
You can’t properly assess a QB when he’s in a situation where nothing works. Daniel Jones will be gone after this season. I truly hope this regime can put something in place to support the next QB they get. Otherwise, we’ll be saying the same ol’ shit in 3 or 4 years.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
Again you're trading a short term win for a Division title versus a chance at getting a real difference maker QB and SB chances that will be playing on a rookie contract
Jimmy G ain't getting this franchise to a SB within the next 2-3 years, it'll take at least that long to rebuild the roster from the disaster beforehand.
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
More cherry picking of individual games. Jones was once about equal to Mahomes when Mahomes had a lousy game. And Mahomes also had a lousy game once. Ergo Jones can be as good as Mahomes.
Aah the statistical and logical errors….
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
Another name that shouldn’t be mentioned here. And please stop calling people Jones defenders. It’s old and stupid. If there are people here who believe in him, who cares?
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In comment 15782879 bw in dc said:
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
All quarterbacks make bad plays. Using 1 play to support a narrative about DJ seems to be very he trend lately.
From practice, and film study, coaches know more about these players than we can ever hope to. If these plays being identified happen to a great degree he won’t be the quarterback for long.
As to Taylor getting reps with the 1 s, this happens every year, including the year s of Eli, according to Victor Cruz.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Let me see if I have this right.
Shurmur sucks, Garrett is better.
Shurmur had some success running an actual NFL caliber offense with Jones but Garrett, in all his wisdom and superior coaching, decided Jones sucks so I'm going to run an offense from 1985 and get myself fired, then effectively retire from coaching. And in this process, he's somehow a better coach?
Cherry on top, Kenny Golladay, a player that looked like Detroit didn't even want to keep, is now the final indicator of how good or bad Jones is? It couldn't possibly be that he only had 1 good NFL season that was worth what we paid, which came 2 years prior to paying him?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
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Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
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First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
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draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
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In comment 15783288 Debaser said:
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
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In comment 15783277 UConn4523 said:
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Period.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
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we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
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In comment 15784122 Debaser said:
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And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
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most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
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Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
Shurmur had an NFL offense with Jones.
Garrett had one of the worst offenses I’ve ever seen with Jones, twice.
Are you following along yet? There’s a lot more I can add but I’ll stop with those 3 very simple to understand points.
Oh wait…