That is why all of the Eli comparisons and the others.
So there are a couple of things. D JOnes athleticism seems to confuse a lot of Jones boosters.
Yes D Jones is very athletic. He can run the RPO. He is more athletic than Eli Manning. But going a step further he is also more athletic than Peyton Manning ; TOm Brady and Joe Montana in his prime as well. Does that mean he is a better NFL QB though? Of course not. Tom Brady is slow ; he has a bad physique; but his decision making, and accuracy is what makes up for it and those reasons are why him and those guys are the greats. Great QBs have athleticism or avg. but, they have instincts for the game and what it takes to win; which Jones so sorely lacks.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
Jones is not accurate. This is an athletic trait a QB must have.
Jones is not consistent, and cannot repeat good execution often enough. This is something the greats, like Brady, can do. Every drop back, every delivery, is identical for Brady et al. Jones is sloppy. This is an athletic deficit.
Jones doesn't react like a great athlete. He is slow to react, panics, and makes killer mistakes. These are athletic deficits.
There are more. But Jones' problems are at least partially athletic. And the deficits he has are killers. He can't ever be an elite QB and we should have moved on this year
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
YPC stands for yards per carry. In 2020, 91 players had 50 or more rushing attempts, including 14 QBs. Daniel Jones averaged more yards per carry than any of them. His rookie season, the only player with 45 rushes who averaged more YPC was Lamar Jackson. That’s one example of his physical ability. We’re not talking about someone completely devoid of talent.
As for your points on team talent, I’m not sure how that applies to the Giants situation. During Jones’ 3 seasons as a professional, the Giants have literally zero parts of their offense that that are comparable to the Chiefs or Rams, including coaching. In hindsight, Pat Shurmer looks like Bill Walsh compared to the idiots cosplaying as head coach and offensive coordinator the past 2 seasons. Some people on BBI complain that Daniel Jones needs everything around him to be great in order for him to succeed. It’s entirely possible that he will have played 4 seasons as a Giants and not had 1 fucking thing be solid, let alone great. You know how the Niners and Chiefs knew that Alex Smith wasn’t the answer? You know how the Rams knew Jared Goff was no longer the answer? They had most of the surrounding pieces, but were still limited by the QBs’ ceiling.
You can’t properly assess a QB when he’s in a situation where nothing works. Daniel Jones will be gone after this season. I truly hope this regime can put something in place to support the next QB they get. Otherwise, we’ll be saying the same ol’ shit in 3 or 4 years.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
There are other QBs that will likely be available besides Young.
Again you're trading a short term win for a Division title versus a chance at getting a real difference maker QB and SB chances that will be playing on a rookie contract
Jimmy G ain't getting this franchise to a SB within the next 2-3 years, it'll take at least that long to rebuild the roster from the disaster beforehand.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
More cherry picking of individual games. Jones was once about equal to Mahomes when Mahomes had a lousy game. And Mahomes also had a lousy game once. Ergo Jones can be as good as Mahomes.
Aah the statistical and logical errors….
I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
Jason Garrett sucked balls as a coach for us. The NFL doesn’t want him now neither does the NCAA.
Another name that shouldn’t be mentioned here. And please stop calling people Jones defenders. It’s old and stupid. If there are people here who believe in him, who cares?
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
All quarterbacks make bad plays. Using 1 play to support a narrative about DJ seems to be very he trend lately.
From practice, and film study, coaches know more about these players than we can ever hope to. If these plays being identified happen to a great degree he won’t be the quarterback for long.
As to Taylor getting reps with the 1 s, this happens every year, including the year s of Eli, according to Victor Cruz.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Let me see if I have this right.
Shurmur sucks, Garrett is better.
Shurmur had some success running an actual NFL caliber offense with Jones but Garrett, in all his wisdom and superior coaching, decided Jones sucks so I'm going to run an offense from 1985 and get myself fired, then effectively retire from coaching. And in this process, he's somehow a better coach?
Cherry on top, Kenny Golladay, a player that looked like Detroit didn't even want to keep, is now the final indicator of how good or bad Jones is? It couldn't possibly be that he only had 1 good NFL season that was worth what we paid, which came 2 years prior to paying him?
RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
RE: RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
That's all fine, but for one thing. It is not abundantly clear who the best player is at QB. Assuming it is Jones or handing him that role because he's the incumbent is wrong, especially for a new regime. If their determination is that he is truly the #1, then I say go with it. But if there is any front office influence, or anybfsctors other than playbon the field, then that's a mistake.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
RE: I think BBC makes a point that we should debated openly
Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
I don't think Taylor is better than Jones but have a feeling
Taylor has the ability to get the Offense into the end zone more often when they get down there. Not a lot mind you, but moreso than Jones who hasn't exhibited any of the features to be decent at that since his rookie year.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
it sounds like you want it to be true and are using the built in meddling excuse as the only possible reason Jones is the starter. You don't find that a bit odd?
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
By most media reports, which admittedly are limited, Taylor has looked better in practice. One could argue he looked better in the pre-season game as well. He was more decisive and comfortable in the pocket.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
I guess I struggle with the Taylor being here next year angle. He's signed for 2 years at backup money so I want him to be the backup next year, not the starter. If the Giants stink again and we select a QB in the 1st round, i'd like to think the rookie will earn the starting job out of the gates. If not, maybe it will take a month. Either way, Taylor or some other vet being here shouldn't change how we approach the rookie and when the player should become the full time starter.
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
Having Taylor here for 2 years was a very smart move
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
for any competitive team, but I'm fine with management giving him a shot. That shot is not a guaranteed season-long try-out. If he struggles, Daboll should and will give Tyrod a chance.
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
fair or unfair we are beyond that now. If we start 0-2 and the offense looks anemic, i'd end it. You aren't going to get a much better chance to show you are the goods than at home vs. Carolina.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
RE: RE: That is the right sentiment. Schoen clearly used this past
draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
with a rookie QB in Dallas put up 26 ppg.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I think you also have to consider SB. Shurmur had him for 13 games in 2019. JG had him for 2 and last year SB really was not back.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
RE: RE: RE: im still laughing at your stance on this
Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
I think Shurmur and Garrett are both capable offensive
Coaches and think their long term track record in the NFL supports that.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Three things will determine Jones's future as a starter in the NFL:
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
In my opinion it comes down to: can he find the open receiver and get the ball out of his hand fast enough? Has his failure to improve in this area been due to coaching turnover and a poor supporting cast or will he always be limited by an inability to process things fast enough. He's a smart guy, so I think he will do fine when it comes to pre-snap reads and as he gains more experience his decision-making in all circumstances will naturally improve, but intelligence and mental processing speed have about as much to do with each other as a marathon and the hundred yard dash. Hopefully his coaches and supporting cast will do enough for him that we can reasonably judge: did he get the ball out of his hand and into the hands of the open receiver fast enough?
RE: RE: Does Daniel Jones at QB keep the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens,
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
OK. Jones didn't really play well ....ever. In the NFL rookie Qb's are expected to be terrible and, all you can hope for is some flashes. I guess you can say Jones gave you that but, under what circumstances? Always playing from behind -- in many cases by 2 plus scores -- from the turnovers HE HIMSELF created with defense content to give him everything underneath / not give up a big play and blow the lead.
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.
So there are a couple of things. D JOnes athleticism seems to confuse a lot of Jones boosters.
Yes D Jones is very athletic. He can run the RPO. He is more athletic than Eli Manning. But going a step further he is also more athletic than Peyton Manning ; TOm Brady and Joe Montana in his prime as well. Does that mean he is a better NFL QB though? Of course not. Tom Brady is slow ; he has a bad physique; but his decision making, and accuracy is what makes up for it and those reasons are why him and those guys are the greats. Great QBs have athleticism or avg. but, they have instincts for the game and what it takes to win; which Jones so sorely lacks.
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
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In comment 15782410 bw in dc said:
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that put us squarely in the playoff hunt this year...
Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, LJax, TrevLaw, JB.
I will truly never understand the belief by some on BBI that these other QBs are accomplishing what they have in situations that are even remotely comparable to the mess the Giants have had the past 3 seasons. Whether it was infinitely better coaching, infinitely better offensive line play, or clearly superior skill position talent, 5 of the QBs you mention were in situations Jones (and the fans) could only dream of.
“Squarely in the playoff hunt”??!?!?!!! Daniel Jones practiced the other day with most of the first unit reps going to Kenny Golladay, Collin Johnson, Richie James, and Daniel Bellinger.
The only one of those QBs whose situation was a train wreck similar to the likes of the Giants was Trevor Lawrence. BTW, with the exception of fumbles, Daniel Jones was a superior QB as a rookie to Trevor Lawrence in every other statistical measure.
I like how "with the exveption of fumbles" is glossed over here as if that isn't a gigantic fucking game-changing problem.
Ignore the bad and everything is good!
If you don’t think he can physically play the position at a high enough level to be a quality QB in this league, then we simply don’t agree on that. Daniel Jones problems as a professional quarterback aren’t physical limitations of any kind. We’re talking about a guy who led the NFL in YPC 2 seasons ago. Look at the highlights from the Saints game last season. Look at the zip on his throws. His physical ability isn’t the problem… this isn’t Tua. I’m not sure your skills points even matters because if that was supremely important, the Giants would have ZERO Super Bowl victories. Even with Phil’s accuracy, Eli’s arm strength, and Hostetler’s mobility, none of their 3 Super Bowl winning QBs was the most physically gifted or skilled at any aspect of their position.
As physically talented as Pat Mahomes is, Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, and Travis Kelce played a MAJOR role in his development. As physically gifted as Justin Herbert is, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler have played a major role in his development. Compare Rashan Slater’s rookie season to Andrew Thomas’. Joe Burrow’s offensive line has been abysmal. But compare his skill position players his rookie season to Daniel Jones’ rookie season. Then they added Jamarr Chase. (The Giants added Toney and Golladay, one guy who’s always hurt and another who can’t get open against the Giants backup corners in practice.) Watch the highlights of the Bengals Titans playoff game. On their first 2 drives, Joe Mixon and Jamarr Chase took a dump off and a WR screen 88 combined yards leading to scores. Do you see anyone on the Giants making plays like that?
This stuff matters when you’re trying to develop a QB. Jones has weaknesses that may have hampered his chances at ever being a quality QB in this league. However, if you think you’re going to drop one of those QBs you talked about into the situation the Giants had over the past 3 seasons and he’s going to look even remotely similar to what they look like now, I think you’re way off. The Giants have been a complete train wreck.
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
Jones is not consistent, and cannot repeat good execution often enough. This is something the greats, like Brady, can do. Every drop back, every delivery, is identical for Brady et al. Jones is sloppy. This is an athletic deficit.
Jones doesn't react like a great athlete. He is slow to react, panics, and makes killer mistakes. These are athletic deficits.
There are more. But Jones' problems are at least partially athletic. And the deficits he has are killers. He can't ever be an elite QB and we should have moved on this year
I appreciate the lengthy, detailed response.
Jones didn't lead the NFL in ANY relevant statistical category in 2019 - YPA, A/YA, QBR, completion %, 4QC, GWD...whatever. You are recalling something that simply didn't exist.
Do you really think Jones has elite physical skills? Because I'm telling more often than not that matters.
Let me give you an example.
In 2017, the Chiefs were 10-6 and won the AFCW. Alex Smith was the QB. The surrounding parts were Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. And each broke 1K yards in production for their positions. Terrific years. Yet, the Chiefs could never get past the divisional round.
Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL. Care to guess why? The upgraded to a QB with elite skills over the QB with average skills.
At this point, if we are lucky, maybe - maybe - Jones turns into Alex Smith, V2. But do you really want that outcome?
Look at the Rams last year. Take out a decent QB in Goff, put the team in the hands of an elite talent like Stafford and, presto, they win a SB.
Sure, there are the occasional years where a team wins the SB with a less than elite QB (Dilfer Brad Johnson, Foles, etc), but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
In my judgment, the jury is in on Jones, and it's going to take miracle work by Schoen to build a team that can support Jones. That's just not worth the time.
YPC stands for yards per carry. In 2020, 91 players had 50 or more rushing attempts, including 14 QBs. Daniel Jones averaged more yards per carry than any of them. His rookie season, the only player with 45 rushes who averaged more YPC was Lamar Jackson. That’s one example of his physical ability. We’re not talking about someone completely devoid of talent.
As for your points on team talent, I’m not sure how that applies to the Giants situation. During Jones’ 3 seasons as a professional, the Giants have literally zero parts of their offense that that are comparable to the Chiefs or Rams, including coaching. In hindsight, Pat Shurmer looks like Bill Walsh compared to the idiots cosplaying as head coach and offensive coordinator the past 2 seasons. Some people on BBI complain that Daniel Jones needs everything around him to be great in order for him to succeed. It’s entirely possible that he will have played 4 seasons as a Giants and not had 1 fucking thing be solid, let alone great. You know how the Niners and Chiefs knew that Alex Smith wasn’t the answer? You know how the Rams knew Jared Goff was no longer the answer? They had most of the surrounding pieces, but were still limited by the QBs’ ceiling.
You can’t properly assess a QB when he’s in a situation where nothing works. Daniel Jones will be gone after this season. I truly hope this regime can put something in place to support the next QB they get. Otherwise, we’ll be saying the same ol’ shit in 3 or 4 years.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
Again you're trading a short term win for a Division title versus a chance at getting a real difference maker QB and SB chances that will be playing on a rookie contract
Jimmy G ain't getting this franchise to a SB within the next 2-3 years, it'll take at least that long to rebuild the roster from the disaster beforehand.
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
More cherry picking of individual games. Jones was once about equal to Mahomes when Mahomes had a lousy game. And Mahomes also had a lousy game once. Ergo Jones can be as good as Mahomes.
Aah the statistical and logical errors….
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
Another name that shouldn’t be mentioned here. And please stop calling people Jones defenders. It’s old and stupid. If there are people here who believe in him, who cares?
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In comment 15782879 bw in dc said:
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Starting in 2018, with ostensibly the same weapons, the Chiefs are 50-15 in the regular season, have been to three straight AFC championships games, been to 2 SBs, and won a SB. And their offense has been on the most elite in the NFL.
And in a 2021 game vs Kansas City (in which neither QB played all that great), Daniel Jones outplayed Patrick Mahomes. If not for Ximines's offsides in the 4th quarter, the Giants win that road game.
It's not like I've watched all his games, but when the pieces around him aren't firing on all cylinders, Mahomes hasn't looked all that great. Wasn't the excuse for his poor Super Bowl performance the fact that he was playing behind a line not much better than the Giants OL?
What sticks out to me about the KC game last season is the Pick 6 DJ almost threw, only being saved because the DB slipped and fell.
All quarterbacks make bad plays. Using 1 play to support a narrative about DJ seems to be very he trend lately.
From practice, and film study, coaches know more about these players than we can ever hope to. If these plays being identified happen to a great degree he won’t be the quarterback for long.
As to Taylor getting reps with the 1 s, this happens every year, including the year s of Eli, according to Victor Cruz.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Let me see if I have this right.
Shurmur sucks, Garrett is better.
Shurmur had some success running an actual NFL caliber offense with Jones but Garrett, in all his wisdom and superior coaching, decided Jones sucks so I'm going to run an offense from 1985 and get myself fired, then effectively retire from coaching. And in this process, he's somehow a better coach?
Cherry on top, Kenny Golladay, a player that looked like Detroit didn't even want to keep, is now the final indicator of how good or bad Jones is? It couldn't possibly be that he only had 1 good NFL season that was worth what we paid, which came 2 years prior to paying him?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
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Should the 2022 Giants be a tank job or should Daboll be instilling the beginnings of a winning culture, a culture in which the guy who plays better starts period? Which one?
Best player plays and he already has said that. Jones is going to start. If he stinks and BD sees him as a reason and he is missing too many plays he will make the switch imv. He won't risk losing the team by not trying to win.
Big picture wise based on the draft and where the team is I think they are building to support a rookie QB in 23/24 and the offense will be much more run centric the first three years than some expect. JS/BD learned a lesson and they will go with what history has proven gives you the best chance of winning a SB on a rookie contract. Elite defense, balanced offense built of the running game. Passing concepts will grow over time.
For BD this is what he saw in NE. His NC at Bama was on a very heavy run team. His team in Buffalo was soft in the middle at it was exposed. Don't be fooled by Buffalo's come back against KC and giving up the TD in overtime. KC was about to put that game away much earlier.
Everybody focusses on Jones but really the emphasis should be on the team building to support "a" QB imv.
It is why I have advocated for Taylor to be given a shot from day 1. He very well might be the best. He has had more career success. But, he is a mediocre QB, so does that really tell you more about him or Jones if you believe he is better.
Jones, in my opinion, still has a decent upside. But, the window to reach that ceiling is very small. If he is the better of the two at the end of camp, then sure hand him the reins. But, then it is his job to blow us away this year in order to have any chance to re-sign. Otherwise, we have 1 QB who I think is better actually under contract next year for very little $. Nothing short of an outstanding season should get Jones a new deal here.
We had 2 top 7 picks this past year. Even if tanking were a viable strategy, we've been there and done that as far as high picks go.
Daboll needs to build a winning culture and try to win some ball games. This team won't be going to the playoffs, but it needs to at least be competitive.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
More likely Jones is just going to quickly panic when down near the goal line and try to bull rush head-first into a pack of defenders and get his bell rung. Why? Because that is his MO...
As i've stated countless times Taylor HASN'T been good in an relevant or reasonable amount of time - you guys are clinging to a 5 year old sample. Taylor can be better, sure, not out of the realm of possibility. But saying he's better now is based off nothing relevant. He certainly didn't look better in the 1 game they've played so far.
You capped it off with saying Jones has some upside, I would agree (don't think its very much but its there). Taylor doesn't, so why would he play if he doesn't have upside and hasn't done anything the last 5 years, and isn't better in practice or the preseason games?
If Taylor comes out in the next 2 preseason games and lights it up while Jones stinks, I'll concede my stance. But until that happens this is just a lot of "I can't stand watching Jones anymore", which is fine but should be labeled as such.
Look, I don't think Taylor is a wonderful option. But, I don't think, right now, Jones is a better option. That is the difference. I have said it more than a few times now. I think Taylor is a bottom 1/3 of the league QB, better than some starters. Unfortunately, one of those starters is on the same team as him. That is not an endorsement of Taylor; it is lamenting what we have in Jones.
My argument for playing Taylor hinges 100% on him outplaying Jones the rest of camp. If Jones is better he should play. However, I think Taylor has more value past this year from the sole perspective of him being under contract next year on a very cheap deal. Whether he is a bridge starter or backup, there is value there. Jones, on the other hand, is playing for a deal and for me, that deal only comes if he has the highly unlikely out of this world season.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
No responsible front offense would have extended Jones based on his career to this point. But unless you have had private conversations with Schoen you have no idea if they will have interest in him based on this year s performance going forward
If Jones plays moderately well he's going to get a deal in FA which is good for the Giants. There's more value there as it we mean we both win games in 2022 and there's potential for a decent comp pick.
First of all, it would be negligent to not have something on the roster going into an offseason where you will likely puruse a new QB.
And even if the hope/plan is they draft a QB and the rookie takes the reins at the beginning of the next season, having some summer competition and veteran around takes some of the pressure off a 21-year guy to be an immediate savior in NYC in Sept.
And lastly and imv (for all the posters that need that assurance this is an opinion), I think Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel just enough rope to hang himself this season so QB insurance while they focus on the million other problems with this team was just prudent...
There are things Jones can do that Tyrod can't, but what TT can do is execute an offense and make decisions quickly. In that case, he may be better-suited to allow management to evaluate other offensive players. I think too many think the only jury out is the one on DJ, but management needs to evaluate every offensive player (except maybe AT). If TT gives them a better chance to do that, he will play.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
Think of it this way: every QB's floor comes with a grade, and then that floor goes up or down based on his surroundings.
Say a 10 gets you in the hunt for a ring. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are 8s. They get you a lot of the way there on their own. Guys like Allen, Burrow, Mahomes are 6s. I'd say Jones right now is a 4.
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First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
F him. Shurmur sucked. He was good because he got a QB to put up meaningless stats after blowing the game with constant fumbling and bone headed interceptions. That is somehow "good". ?
There are QBs in the league that have good garbagr stats like Minshew who show up as #3 on a depth chart. At the very best he is not #2 . Putting up some numbers isn't everything.
Garrett coached for 10 years ; had a .500 record. I am not saying he is Vince Lombardi , but he knew exactly what he had in Jones.
And please he got fired and this team looked like Bad News Bears after he left. He got fired so JW Pepper can get a job and run sneaks from outside their own end zone on 3rd and 9 and have your back up QB only make 11 attempts in a game. Who should have fired who?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
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draft to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball, and showed no interest in any of the QBs in the draft.
He didn't even want to use a middle or late flyer pick on a QB because he has to use the 2022 year to shed Jones off the roster. And to the extent Jones can't start games or finish the year, he had already brought in a cheap veteran in Taylor.
Schoen/Daboll have very little interest in Jones other than to play out this season and end his time in NY. Otherwise they would have exercised the 5th year option and not given Taylor a 2-year deal.
Jones' time is almost up...
I agree. I know "letting it play out" is not very popular, but that seems to be the course that Schoen and Daboll have decided on.
As an aside, "Schoen and Daboll" rhymes with "Cain and Abel." What does that mean? I have no idea.
Ha do you know how many times I have thought "Cain and Abel" when typing "Schoen and Daboll"? Well, a lot... lol.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
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In comment 15783288 Debaser said:
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Good post. JG was hired under very strange circumstances because he was brought in as training wheels for Judge. Maybe that just wasn't a good fit for either person. Based on some reporting that Jones was on a very short leash, I could see that being a direct order from Judge; and Garrett being in a tough spot to develop an offense around that.
I think certain fans (I am one) who began to question the offense the Giants were running under Judge saw that Jones showed some potential in a different system and wondered how much of the system could have been holding Jones back, which I think is fair.
Another side to that which I have seen mentioned is that Jones had success early when there was not any real tape of him in a real pro system. Once defenses adjusted (which they do, the great once rise above again and again, while the others settle towards the middle to bottom area) Jones was not able to elevate his game to match the adjustments.
I think both of the view points are quite fair, although just stating a couple variables is still somewhat simplifying the situation a bit. Now it seems more so that Jones just may not be a starting qb which lends credence to view point two.
On a side note (not Jones related at all). I often wondered how much a team could get away with a bad offensive system, but with a great qb. Lets say the surrounding players of the great qb are sufficient, but nothing more. I wonder how that would play out.
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
31 RushAtt/g 150 ypg.
Now he came from Turner's background but that offense runs through the running game. Passing game off PA.
Shurmur with Case Keenum put up 24 pts/g 2017
32 RushAtt/g 123 ypg
Shurmur with Jones/Eli 21 ppg 2019
24 RushAtt/g 96 rypg
Garret with Jones 2020
24 RushAtt/g 110 yards 17.5 pts
Both Coaches had very good running games when they had success. Shurmur got on SB early about sticking his nose in and getting the tough yards. Why? Both coaches offenses work off the run game. Being ahead in down/distance is critical for the PA game.
This is what TC wanted. Strive for balance. Stay out of obvious pass situations and the 2nd/3rd and long.
What have the Giants been in for the last decade? This very thing you try to avoid. Injuries/talent at skill guys, poor OL/TE play and QB play all have struggled to overcome this issue.
The debate is assigning blame and how much. What should be clear is it has been a lot of things rooted in talent. Drafts 2012-2017 clearly show this that unfortunately extended with into 18/19. No magical QB was going to "elevate" "oft schedule" throw your way out of it with meaningful success imv.
JS/BD job was/is to assess the damage and start repairing the carnage improving from Buff the physicality issue. At least the D is well on its way.
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Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
There is a difference between being a HC and an OC. Shurmur was a bad HC because he couldn't inspire players, and let too many walk all over him. He is a fine OC though. He has NEVER worked with a better than average QB, one could argue that he never worked with an even average QB. He coaxed career years out of Nick Foles and Case Keenum.
Garrett spent most of his career with Tony Romo at QB. For all of his faults, Romo could cover up a lot of sins. He does deserve a lot of credit for developing Dak so quickly.
I do agree with you that too many here diminish JG's coaching ability in order to find someone to blame for DJ's shortcomings.
Someone to blame???!? Was he not the offensive coordinator? Regardless of whatever nonsensical excuses anyone wants to use on BBI, Jones threw more TDs in 1 season under Shurmer than he did in 2 under Garrett. Jones, who’s been abominable in the red zone the past 2 seasons, threw 12 TDs and 0 interceptions in that area under Shurmer. If you put 3/5th’s of the 1st team All Pro offensive line in front of Daniel Jones, I’m fairly certain that he could turn around and hand the ball off as successfully as Dak did in 2016. Doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to do that. (BTW, Garrett never went 14-2. He went 13-3, lost twice to Ben McAdoo that season, and lost their only playoff game despite being the 1 seed.) Just like his successor in Dallas, Garrett’s head coaching career is rife with underachievement based on the talent he had. Jason Garrett kept that job for a decade because the owner thought of him as a son.
We saw 2 men coach the same people and the second guy couldn’t get them to score and was fired midseason. Jason Garrett isn’t a good coach and I have to believe that had a negative effect on the QB. That’s not making excuses for Daniel Jones… it’s an acknowledgment of reality.
I won't get into the better coach thing but I think you have some merit to JG not being as good/creative maximizing talent when he does not have a good/top OL/running game, strong blocking TE. Shurmur seems to win in that area.
Jerry took the O responsibilities for a reason.
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In comment 15783277 UConn4523 said:
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Shurmur got points out of Jones but sucked. Garrett didn't get points out of Jones because he knew Jones sucked, but is definitely the better coach.
If I bash my head into my desk enough times, will this eventually make sense or no?
Right and Golladay is one hit wonder. That is why Jones and Shep were this new dynamic duo. And that is why Ross had more TD receptions than Golladay. A player who last I checked was an unsigned free agent. Jones doesn't know how to use his receivers.
Shurmur is bad coach because he couldn't make the Giants (or the Browns) win. Garett is a better coach because he once went 14-2 and kept an NFL coaching job for a decade (not easy to do).
This post makes absolutely zero sense.
I gave up. He's making my point and doesn't know it, so i'll just let it ride.
The argument that Garrett somehow spent a decade coaching the highest profile team in the NFL without knowing how to design and run a reasonable NFL offense is laughable on its face.
Period.
1) Can he be smarter when he runs the football and protect himself?
2) Can he diagnose defenses better pre-snap and get the offense in an advantageous situation?
3) When the homeruns are there, does he connect on most of them?
Because what's the point of a fast, smart, QB who has an accurate long ball if can't do those three things above really well? And those are all on him.
95% of the people here are ready to move on from Jones. The point was no matter your opinion of Jones - many of those QBs drafted that were talked about would have struggled doing anything with this franchise.
I do think if Jones was drafted by those teams you listed - he would be a better player and would have much more success with them then being on the Giants.
Disagree 100%
I think Jones would be the same player anywhere else that he is here. He's one of the worst redzone QBs I've ever seen in my life.
No way would Jones have the Chiefs where Mahomes has them. Same with Green Bay, LA Rams, Tampa Bay, Buffalo and their QBs...
Reasonable people can forgive a rookie fumbling all the time and throwing bone headed interceptions. They are expected to clean that up if not amount to back up duty in the NFL in subsequent years. That is exactly what Garrett attempted to do by the looks of things. It meant a steep reduction in Jones productivity.
How on earth does anyone look at that and conclude Shurmur is this great OC and Garrett a horrible coach is beyond me. Turning the ball over 39 times for a 2nd / 3rd year player is bench material. What Shurmur had in Jones was completely not sustainable.
The only problem really was we didn't have someone like Taylor who could actually play QB since Mara looked to be all in on Jones.