most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Coaching is not the same standard as players where you can say an unsigned free agent is "out of the NFL" for not being good enough.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
RE: RE: RE: yawn - I never said he was this great coach
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I honestly don't know why people even want to bring up
his rookie campaign so much. Besides Shurmur being one of the best at getting production out of the QBs he coaches I feel many are overlooking the most important fact.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
Quote:
Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
I am going to look to Daniel Jones for confirmation of Garrett being worse than Shurmur. A guy who managed to get production out Case Keenum . I don't know what Surmur does to make what otherwise would be back-up QBs--and make no mistake that is what D Jones is-- look like legit starters with upside but, he is what he is.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
I would not be the least bit surprised if Garrett voluntarily is taking some time off from coaching or if he just thinks being in a broadcast booth is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun than coaching.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Quote:
And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
For some reason many here won't. and it is not 95% not even close
And no one is saying Shumur is either, you keep making things up. We are replying to your preposterous posts that effectively said Garrett is a better coach but did worse with Jones, but its some how a feather in his cap? Your logic is brutal, and I'm not even sure you realize it but you argue like you do. Its bizarre.
Coaching in the NFL is about winning football games not beefing up a crumby QBs stat line. And his winning pct was a little better at 36% v. 25% when Shurmur was here coaching D Jones. It is not much but what do you really expect?
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
Quote:
And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
Quote:
we are talking about Daniel Jones. Not sure if you noticed but the offense actually gained yards and scored under Shurmur. It didn't under Garrett. Last time I checked scoring points helped win games and in 2019 the Giants scored 21 ppg (18th in the league) and then 17.5 and 15 the following 2 years under the much better coaching of Garrett.
you try to keep up. I am actually pointing out actual wins and losses not philosophy about what should be. It was more interesting watching them in 2019 I'll give you that.
You’ve moved the goalpost, congrats. What’s the next pivot you’d like to discuss?
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Quote:
In comment 15784122 Debaser said:
Quote:
And Daniel Jones sucks NFL has spoken move on.
Actually the head coach of the Giants doesn’t agree with you. But good try.
He does? He could have fooled me. It seems like the only ones who don't agree are a meddlesome owner and dug in BBIers who thought Eli just didn't have it / thought they called a superstar in the making in 2019 and are dead wrong.
He fooled you by naming him the starting QB? Man, April 1st must be a helluva day for you.
Quote:
most top pick rookies are on bad teams, and play bad teams. Trevor Lawrence, Zack Wilson, and Lance Fields all played for bad teams, against bad teams, and did less than nothing for an entire season. They didn't put up almost 30 TD's, so isn't that worse? Jones had a very similar impact that Baker Mayfield had as a rookie - he then took the next step behind that great OL and run game but flatlined then declined. Jones didn't, his coaching got downgraded, OL pitiful, RB/WR constantly injured and the rest is history.
I don't think Jones will be much of anything for us but I think there's plenty of positives from his rookie year regardless of the teams faced. It just hasn't worked out, he didn't grow (other than cutting fumbles) and here we are still arguing about it.
Almost 30 is pushing it. He didn't even have 25. And about half came in 3 games against shitty teams.
Look, I agree his rookie year had enough to get excited about, even with the turnovers. But, the reality is, he never approached that level of play again. The argument about the personnel doesn't fly, if you count the rookie year, because his personnel was no better or worse that year. Yeah, the coaching sucked. But, his game not only never elevated, but it declined. That's just the way it is. If we have to wait for everything to be perfect for him to ever produce at even a decent level, then I don't want him and a top 10 pick was a mistake.
Why aren't you including his rushing TDs? And if you prorate for the games he didn't play when Eli was starting, then you are right at 30 (over it but i'm being conservative). He had a lot vs bad teams, the QB's I named can't even say that.
100% disagree on the personnel. Our line and running game has been catastrophically bad the last 2 years, definitively worse than 2019. Barkley helped in 2019 despite the HAS. I saw a big enough difference from 2019 to 2020/21 to be fairly confident that our personnel and coaching on the offensive side of the ball regressed. If you don't that's cool, but I don't know why that would be. We still played bad teams those years, it was just his rookie year, so why the almost full score per game decrease?
IMO Daniel Jones is a highly flawed QB that was coached not to make mistakes the past 2 seasons and it basically took all of his upside away. I expect more scoring this year with more turnovers, I just hope the ratio isn't horrible.
I was excited about his potential based on his rookie season. It wasn't a good season for a regular QB and thus shouldn't be pointed to. There were way too many turnovers to be looked at as even an average season. It was one filled with potential as in "hey if he can clean up these turnovers we may have something here"
Cleaning up turnovers shouldn't result in you becoming a bad QB. Which is what he's been.
And that's the problem 4 years of college 3 years in the pros you should have to flash more than potential 3 seasons ago to be named the starter before camp starts.
Quote:
Pat Shurmer got good production out of DJ and the scheme fit him well. Everyone lost their shit on the fumbles and ball protection and now we have a paranoid and damaged QB. High risk offenses are fun but they can be a catastrophe so NYG went hard to ball security and game management with DJ and we have 2 years of turd pile to show for it
First off, Shurmur wasn't this great coach and awesome offensive mind.
Garrett is a better NFL Coach than him . Should be obvious. Is it that Jones was this great QB minus the fumbling and bone headed ints that Shurmue managed to exploit ; or is it Garrett's fault for recognizing what he had in Jones and thought "There is no way you can win more than 6 games a year with a QB who plays like that" who tried to reign in Jones deficiencies? And for all this skill position BS -- it might very well be Jones fault that THomas has more TDs than Golladay. The dude checked out after 1st Dallas game. He had Matt Stafford throwin to him in Detroit . enough said
Shurmur is one of the better OCs in this league, and definitely better than Garrett, and for starters, look no further than Jones himself, who resembled a QB with some potential under Shurmur.
The problem with Shurmur was that he sucked as a HC.
And let's look at what Garrett was before coming to the Giants. An OC for the Cowboys that had the 2 nd best offense in the NFL. A guy who coached for like 10 years and had .600 record.
And man you ahve to make me talk highly about the Dallas COwboys because you can't accept D Jones is just not a good NFL QB.
Shurmur had an NFL offense with Jones.
Garrett had one of the worst offenses I’ve ever seen with Jones, twice.
Are you following along yet? There’s a lot more I can add but I’ll stop with those 3 very simple to understand points.
Oh wait…