this is the same crap he's been dealing with the past couple of years. He has no to little chemistry with his "top" receivers...
Bobby Skinner @BobbySkinner_
Giants top 4 WR on the depth chart in preseason
Kenny Golladay 1 catch 6 yards
Wan’Dale Robinson 4 catches 1 yard
Kadarius Toney DNP
Sterling Shepard DNP
WR2: Alex Bachman
His primary problem as I see it.....us that he is a tick slow.
I do not view Taylor as a better QB....but he throws super quick....
However, this year he FINALLY has a functional situation around him that will allow a fair evaluation.
*Decent coaching staff.
*Decent Offensive Line.
*Healthy Barkley at RB.
So he will be expected to produce with his group of TEs and WRs.
As long as that has improved, there are no excuses.
Jones is just snakebit. I don't think the top end talent is there anyway so i'm not sure it even matters, but it sucks seeing any young QB have to go through the crap he has (and I don't feel sorry for Daniel Jones the person, strictly talking his playing career).
Its so obvious that outside of the truly elite QB's, the organization you go to will likely make our break your career. We couldn't have fucked up his chance to succeed any more than we have.
WR2: Alex Bachman
Starting defensive backs on other teams smile.
Where does that leave him? Probably an average to possibly slightly above average starter in the right circumstances. He’s looking squarely at the career journeyman/backup QB path right now.
I'm excited to see what the offense can do with all its number 1s out there at once. I'm telling you, this offense is going to surprise some people.
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
That was always going to be his path, as would have befitted the mid-round pick he should have been.
Plenty of people care. And the year being a waste is really just for the standings. This is a really important year for Schoen and Daboll to showcase their competency and actually pull this franchise out of the gutter.
Jones stepping up and playing solid football is a huge win for this franchise. It would open doors and give us something to build off of.
I like Jones. I think he's a talented player. I like his toughness - that he played the week after getting knocked out of a game with a pretty ugly concussion says all you need to know about his desire to compete. He can't do it alone, though.
All that said, at some point he has to start winning.
Might this be the year? I hope so. For the first time in a long time, the offensive scheme seems to look like a modern day program. The art of playcalling incorporates two different aspects - play design and play sequencing. It seems Daboll understands both. I'm hopeful this alone will help Jones be more productive.
I would also expect this to be a run-heavy offense given that run blocking should be the line's strength. This may also allow them to get away with a little less at receiver.
Add all this up and it's not hard to see a scenario in which he steps it up this year. One can hope anyway...
looking at Toney's first year + 2nd camp can anyone honestly expect him to play more than 6 games? If the over under on games played for him was 6.5, I'm taking the under.
If you believe he has what it takes (I'm not sure I do) -- I don't see how you can learn much about Jones in the context of this group.
I firmly believe the tone from his supporters, both fans and media, will quickly turn to "how can you judge a guy with these WRs, TEs, four new lineman, and a new system."
WR2: Alex Bachman
The solution would be whatever fixes the chronic injury problem, not this.
Even if you did this, they would just get hurt too.
I think it's simply just another excuse
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
Ugh. I hated the pick, and after Dave Brown I couldn't believe they would take another QB from Duke just on general principle. He would have been available at 17 if had to have this guy, minimum.
But he's here now and he's not going anywhere until January, so bitching about him at this point is just noise. He wears the Giants jersey and if he's successful, my team does better, so what's the point? Yes, you are smarter than Gettleman. Whoop de doo.
I'm excited to see what the offense can do with all its number 1s out there at once. I'm telling you, this offense is going to surprise some people.
Yes - against second string defenses in preseason he looked great.
Jones gets no breaks from me. If the Giants suck this year he’s got to go. You can’t spend large capital on a guy that cannot show he can take a team forward
Really??? Besides the WRs mentioned above, hes been throwing to Undrafted Free Agents for the most part.
Its always good to compare one of the best QBs to ever play and in the same system for years to a 4th year player, playing under his 3rd coach and 3rd offense.
There are no excuses for DJ this season but if your expectations are that DJ or any QB we bring in will be as good as Rodgers youre just not being fair. I think he can be in that 10-15 range for a QB this season regardless of the WRs. The system is conducive to production. The OL has looked pretty good compared to last season as well. He's probably never going to be a top 5 QB and thats ok.
By the way, Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years before he became a starter in his 4th year and went 6-10. He has been great but only won 1 Superbowl. He is a better player than Eli but Eli has 2 Superbowls. You dont need a great QB to win, you just need a good one which I think Jones can be now that we have a system in place for success.
This is year 4 - how long do you expect him to get?
Jones is just snakebit. I don't think the top end talent is there anyway so i'm not sure it even matters, but it sucks seeing any young QB have to go through the crap he has (and I don't feel sorry for Daniel Jones the person, strictly talking his playing career).
Its so obvious that outside of the truly elite QB's, the organization you go to will likely make our break your career. We couldn't have fucked up his chance to succeed any more than we have.
I agree with this, I'm not sure he could have ever been the guy, hell few are. But any shot he had was derailed by complete incompetence around him. From the GM to the coach to the injuries around him. And now I think he's broken beyond repair.
Robinson- Way too early to say, but was probably over-drafted at the very least.
Toney- Can't ever stay on the field...like ever, and never seems interested.
Shep- Also rarely stays on the field.
I care less about the "connection" with his receivers from preseason games when they don't really play together and more if they played the games and the QB threw one way and the receiver ran the other.
What I saw so far this summer:
1) a BETTER system than we have had in years where routes seemed to look to help other routes and confuse the defense. No more 4 guys running flat horizontal routes 6 yards from the LOS.
2) With our improved Oline we should see a lot more opportunities than in the past.
3) We have two weeks really to be ready for week 1.
4) Golladay sucks, end of story. I don't care about his reps. He shows no burst and honestly a whole ton of disinterest.
1) Can he protect himself better when running the ball
2) Can he read defenses better pre-snap and put the Giants in an advantageous position
3) Can he hit the big plays when they are there
I've posted this before: if a guy with good speed, an Ivy League-type brain, and accurate deep ball cannot do those things, then he's not the guy.
You can find a replacement-level guy who can operate an offense with a good line and good weapons.
I care less about the "connection" with his receivers from preseason games when they don't really play together and more if they played the games and the QB threw one way and the receiver ran the other.
What I saw so far this summer:
1) a BETTER system than we have had in years where routes seemed to look to help other routes and confuse the defense. No more 4 guys running flat horizontal routes 6 yards from the LOS.
2) With our improved Oline we should see a lot more opportunities than in the past.
3) We have two weeks really to be ready for week 1.
4) Golladay sucks, end of story. I don't care about his reps. He shows no burst and honestly a whole ton of disinterest.
I am not an expert at all, and this is my impression too about the new system. There are a lot more plays where the QB has an open guy to throw to. Look at the touchdown to the TE yesterday. The CB had choice to take the TE or the RB and picked the short guy, Webb hits the TE for 6. Just, FINALLY. I feel like every throw last year was contested.
And then he got paid.
I’m certainly not trying to defend Daniel Jones but if you’ve watched Golladay the past season plus training camp this year and come away thinking it’s the QB that’s bringing him down you may want to find another hobby because you suck at this one
Sterling Shepard - has been recovering from an injury. He has a history with Daniel Jones and I don't think it will take long (if at all) for them to get on track.
Wandale Robinson- has been a full participant during training camp and they have primarily gotten their work in during practices. I don't think daboll wanted to showcase Robinsons' abilities in the preseason.
Kenny Golladay- he has missed some time, but he has been part of the practices. He has also been working with Daniel Jones individually.
Kadarius Toney- he has missed some time, but his biggest question is going to be if he will stay healthy enough to be on the field.
I just don't think 26 total pass attempts in 2 games is anything to scrutinize as to who got how many passes.
Jones is just snakebit. I don't think the top end talent is there anyway so i'm not sure it even matters, but it sucks seeing any young QB have to go through the crap he has (and I don't feel sorry for Daniel Jones the person, strictly talking his playing career).
I kind of agree with this but in a way I think it may end up showing us the mental toughness of Daniel Jones, and while it doesn't make up for lack of talent it is sure an important trait. Great talents have crumbled under mental pressure. I am excited for the season and to see how the Daniel Jones saga with the NYG turns out; good or bad.
Its so obvious that outside of the truly elite QB's, the organization you go to will likely make our break your career. We couldn't have fucked up his chance to succeed any more than we have.
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He's completing over 70% throwing to the likes of Sills, Collins, etc., guys who may not make the team.
I'm excited to see what the offense can do with all its number 1s out there at once. I'm telling you, this offense is going to surprise some people.
Yes - against second string defenses in preseason he looked great.
Jones gets no breaks from me. If the Giants suck this year he’s got to go. You can’t spend large capital on a guy that cannot show he can take a team forward
Who's saying he's here past this year? In addition to not showing much before now, he's not Daboll and Schoen's "guy." Their jobs are on the line, and if I was in their shoes, I'd rather bet on someone I drafted. Jones is a good as gone, and everyone knows it. If he plays OK, he may catch on as a back up somewhere.
I just don't get actively rooting against him.
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I'm squarely in the skeptical corner with Jones, and even I am surprised how much of an ultimatum the team and the fans are putting on him.
This is year 4 - how long do you expect him to get?
I view it differently. I would have preferred they cut him, or as a distant alternative pick up his option.
This one year or else thing makes no sense given where the team is.
Sure but it wasn’t consistent and it was only 1 really good year. And no one thinks Jones is Stafford.
Not many people wanted or liked the KG signing.
come on now. you dont have to like Jones but Kenny Golladay did jack shit and put in no effort last year. thats not on Jones
Oh yes - some teams would kill for a lazy Gollladay and always injured Shepard and Toney. Rodgers would be foaming at the mouth watching their best work from the sidelines.
In an NFL with a different salary structure I would probably be willing to give Jones more time. (Early Phil Simms is not a terrible comp for Jones, to be honest.) However, there are basically two ways to win in the NFL now:
1. Have a cost-controlled QB via the rookie salary structure.
2. Have a superstar QB.
Option 3--have a "pretty good QB making $35m a year"--really isn't viable; it hurts the rest of the roster too much, and the QB play isn't enough to elevate the rest of the team.
So either Jones has to leap well beyond his established level of play, or the Giants should roll the dice again for another cost-controlled QB.
At this point, Jones is more likely to succeed with some other team than the Giants, I think. The Tannehill path remains realistic.
Has Jones gotten a fair shake? Not at all. But it's not about being fair.
Golladay had more than one good year though - 70 catches for 1063 yards in 2018 and then 65 for 1190 in 2019. Missed most of 2020 but was productive when he did play.
It's absolutely a terrible comp.
The injured and lazy route running version?
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Rodgers, for instance, and Mahomes, would love to have him.
The injured and lazy route running version?
He's better than Allen Lazard
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In comment 15795344 Producer said:
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Rodgers, for instance, and Mahomes, would love to have him.
The injured and lazy route running version?
He's better than Allen Lazard
That would be incorrect sir.
Where does that leave him? Probably an average to possibly slightly above average starter in the right circumstances. He’s looking squarely at the career journeyman/backup QB path right now.
How is he both an average to slightly above average starter and also a career journeyman/backup? Those are very different things.
I am not sure what evidence there is to support that he is an average to slightly above average QB (top 12-15 in the league). I think the hope was that he could someday grow into being the latter.
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In comment 15795344 Producer said:
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Rodgers, for instance, and Mahomes, would love to have him.
The injured and lazy route running version?
He's better than Allen Lazard
Hell no he’s not
Well Golladays peak was 3 years ago. So what that has to do with todays version - no knows. Golladay is terrible now. Lazard is ascending. And it’s not even close
Lol, no they’re not. Who’s actually good on the WR corps? And remember they actually have to PLAY.
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In comment 15795265 mikeinbloomfield said:
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He's completing over 70% throwing to the likes of Sills, Collins, etc., guys who may not make the team.
I'm excited to see what the offense can do with all its number 1s out there at once. I'm telling you, this offense is going to surprise some people.
Yes - against second string defenses in preseason he looked great.
Jones gets no breaks from me. If the Giants suck this year he’s got to go. You can’t spend large capital on a guy that cannot show he can take a team forward
Who's saying he's here past this year? In addition to not showing much before now, he's not Daboll and Schoen's "guy." Their jobs are on the line, and if I was in their shoes, I'd rather bet on someone I drafted. Jones is a good as gone, and everyone knows it. If he plays OK, he may catch on as a back up somewhere.
I just don't get actively rooting against him.
I’m not rooting against him, but you cited examples for encouragement that are weak at best. The guy has proven nothing yet and that’s just they way it is. I want to see results, speculation based on past performance just ain’t doing it for me.
Obviously, this example doesn't hold for known vets like Golladay or Sheperd, but's something to consider before writing off Robinson or Toney (provided Toney gets on the field lol).
I just don't get actively rooting against him.
Who do you think is actively rooting against Jones? Having low expectations of him is not synonymous with rooting against him. Are people criticizing Golladay rooting against him too?
Everyone on this site wants Jones to succeed because it means the Giants succeed. The difference is that many people see him dragging the team down with his poor play and want him replaced (just like Golladay).
The "I am a better fan than you because I have rose colored glasses" is getting really ridiculous on this site.
Matriculate the ball down the field.
Surely they can accomplish that...
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I just don't get actively rooting against him.
Who do you think is actively rooting against Jones? Having low expectations of him is not synonymous with rooting against him. Are people criticizing Golladay rooting against him too?
Everyone on this site wants Jones to succeed because it means the Giants succeed. The difference is that many people see him dragging the team down with his poor play and want him replaced (just like Golladay).
The "I am a better fan than you because I have rose colored glasses" is getting really ridiculous on this site.
Replaced with who? Taylor? Where does that get us? Some great FA QB who doesn't exist and would wreck the cap anyway? Excellent.
The point is, Jones is their best option now. He's gone after this year. If Schoen decides to sign him to a deal, I'll bitch then but until then I'm fine with him playing out his rookie contract. Even if I wasn't (as a lot of folks aren't), what's the alternative? He's here and his success is directly tied to the team playing well. Get over it.
At this point, Jones is more likely to succeed with some other team than the Giants, I think. The Tannehill path remains realistic.
Has Jones gotten a fair shake? Not at all. But it's not about being fair.
I mean pick up his 5th year option, which is a relatively low amount for a starting QB, if you believe in him.
Again, I would have cut him, but this lame duck period does nothing for the future of the team in my view.
1. Have a cost-controlled QB via the rookie salary structure.
2. Have a superstar QB.
Option 3--have a "pretty good QB making $35m a year"--really isn't viable; it hurts the rest of the roster too much, and the QB play isn't enough to elevate the rest of the team.
Sorry but I have to disagree with this point. We just watched Stafford win the SB and he's making $40M a year. He's not a superstar or a rookie IMHO. Ryan, Goff, Garoppolo, and Newton have all at least made it to the show. Then there is Nick Foles as a backup QB.
I know that the QB is important. I do. I get it. However, it's still a team sport. It's a team sport more than any other sport. I honestly can't remember a team that immediately went from zero to hero because they changed the QB. I've seen a team go from contender to champion (Buccs for example) but not zero to hero. The Giants are at zero until they prove otherwise (at least halfway through the season).
If you combine their injury histories, deadly might be the right word.
Golladay had more than one good year though - 70 catches for 1063 yards in 2018 and then 65 for 1190 in 2019. Missed most of 2020 but was productive when he did play.
He had 1 really good year, that's what I said and i'm sticking to it. His sophomore season was good but he was paid for his 2019 production. Everything else has been a mess for him either because of injuries, lack of effort, or now simply cashing in and checking out (that's what it looks like, hope i'm wrong).
Daniel Jones isn't the reason why Golladay gets injured and is lazy. Golladay wouldn't be the first and certainly won't be the last, to cash in and check out. He knew what he signed up for coming here, so our lack of winning shouldn't be a surprise. He's a dog.
NO!
As difficult as it is to swallow, the roster is actually worse than the coaching has been.
Sorry.
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Early Phil Simms is not a terrible comp for Jones, to be honest.
It's absolutely a terrible comp.
Why, other than Jones replacing a 2 time SBMVP I think it is a good comp, up until now, although Simms had a better situation with less coaching changes and a quicker build in talent plus he functioned in a more run oriented league. So in that sense the comp shortchanges Jones.
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And it's not close.
Well Golladays peak was 3 years ago. So what that has to do with todays version - no knows. Golladay is terrible now. Lazard is ascending. And it’s not even close
Lazard ascends because of Rodgers. Golladay is descending because of his Qb perhaps...
It's a ridiculous comparison, it's apples to caviar.
Fourty years ago, in a completely different economic model, in a completely different game.
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
What a dumb fucking post. Congrats.
This year matters because they're going to win 4 games
And yes, I get that it is a 2-way street - a QB needs WR's to get open - but citing WR stats to support how bad they are is a faulty exercise.
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In comment 15795335 RHPeel said:
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Early Phil Simms is not a terrible comp for Jones, to be honest.
It's absolutely a terrible comp.
Why, other than Jones replacing a 2 time SBMVP I think it is a good comp, up until now, although Simms had a better situation with less coaching changes and a quicker build in talent plus he functioned in a more run oriented league. So in that sense the comp shortchanges Jones.
Phil Simms's era was 40+ years ago. The game of football is vastly different now than it was even half as long ago.
In Phil Simms' time it was considered to be very routine for quarterback selections to need 3,4 years of time in the oven before being prepared to start games. Transitions from college to pro took longer for a variety of reasons.
One such, You rarely hear "pro-style offense" in college now because College does a lot more to send QBs to the NFL who are significantly more prepared and are playing a similar game that now shares the same concepts they'll see in the Pros.
Why?
Because QBs in the NFL sign 4 year contracts with 5th year options. Teams need to know by year 4 whether to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into them. There's no 4 year wait and see period. Coaches these days build their offenses around what the player can do. The reverse was true for Simms. They trained Simms to play within their offense.
Specific to Jones, Jones had the distinct benefit of college offense and coaching that plays a pro style and QB whisperer college coach that sends guys to the pros. He should not be on a 5 year plan, even factoring in that the team around him was in bad shape.
Duke Football was lousy. The Giants felt like that were able to evaluate Jones despite that. The NFL as a whole evaluates QBs on bad teams all the time. So a bad team around Jones is not reason to explain away the first 36 professional starts.
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Curious
And then he got paid.
I’m certainly not trying to defend Daniel Jones but if you’ve watched Golladay the past season plus training camp this year and come away thinking it’s the QB that’s bringing him down you may want to find another hobby because you suck at this one
I suspect KG's hip injury was more serious than anyone thought, but I seriously doubt that a guy who worked his ass off most of his life to get good enough to be a Pro Bowl caliber WR is going to suddenly stop trying because he got a payday.
Holyfukkamoly Batboy!!!!! What receivers?
Golladay has so far shown to be the Albert Haynesworth of Wide Receivers.
K-Tone put up 75% of his yards in two games because he can't stay on the field. Plus he'd rather rap.
Robinson has yet to play a down and likely was overdrafted.
Shepard breaks down about as often as an '85 Yugo.
I suspect KG's hip injury was more serious than anyone thought, but I seriously doubt that a guy who worked his ass off most of his life to get good enough to be a Pro Bowl caliber WR is going to suddenly stop trying because he got a payday.
Stopped being reasonable. It's a BBI rice of passage to blast our current star wide receiver for lack of effort only to turn around in the next thread and lament about how a past star receivers injuries ruined his career with a hint of ironing or remembering how that guy got blasted for lack of effort as well.
Also, if it was all about the money for Galloway, then why would he jeopardized the $34M left in the contract for 2023 and 2024 seasons? Or quite frankly his chances of getting a big payday again?
I hated it when the Giants has a Smurf WR group but it looks like, with Golladay’s indifference, that’s what we will see. Sills, Board and Slayton are the only receivers over 6 ft tall.
Since franchise QBs don’t grow on trees, are you of the school that says draft a QB high every 3 years until you find your franchise QB? Or do we take the Tannehill and Kerry Collins approach until we find a good QB on his second contract? We are experiencing QB hell now. How many times do we go through this?
Who - other than opposing defenses - does Jones make look good?
So, I expect them to put Jones in position to succeed - regardless of the issues - and it's then up to Jones to execute.
We have a schedule that has a lot of opportunities for wins. It's going to be disappointing if Jones can't take advantage of that...
So, I expect them to put Jones in position to succeed - regardless of the issues - and it's then up to Jones to execute.
We have a schedule that has a lot of opportunities for wins. It's going to be disappointing if Jones can't take advantage of that...
This is a very good take.
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according to the Cult. Not in college, not in the pros. Or anything else for that matter. No scheme has been good either. No good offensive coordinators. Not a single one, anywhere. Poor, poor Daniel.
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
What a dumb fucking post. Congrats.
However, the Simms era is important and if the Giants replicate components of that than I guarantee the WR's and Jones will at least be closer to reaching what ever potential they have. You know the actual "Giants Way".
Seen lots of nice regular season teams with the "modern" approach. Interestingly, I have yet to see a SB team that did not have some if not all of those components of the "Giants Way". It may not be needed often in season. But it will be needed somewhere. This is what history shows.
So modernize all you want but JS and BD better fix the hard stuff and get the players who can execute it.
I also should add I do expect to see significant improvement. I just have very tough standards for how much is enough for another contract. I think, given his past 3 years and his injuries, he needs to be at an elite level to proceed with contract # from the Giants.
Rudolph
Trubisky
Pickett
I’d pick up any one of these 3 if cut and get him in the system for possibly next year if DJ doesn’t work out. All 3 are more preferred than Taylor.
Heck, I’m even interested in that Jets QB who makes plays to win games. I know he is doing it against back ups, but do us he playing with back ups. The kid looks fearless. I’d pick him up too.
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
Thank goodness the silly season of delusion is finally over. What a colossal waste of energy these offseasons are for this team anymore and the ludicrous takes by the beligerent bullies on this site. The denial for many on this site is exceeded only by the inexplicable and seemingly endless denial of the Giants ownership itself.
Now we can get back to the urgent business of getting to rock bottom asap. If that means going winless this year so we can rid ourselves of this hot garbage roster, so be it. The good news is, Daniel Jones and this morose cadre of overdrafted, disinterested and overpaid receivers gives us the best chance of doing so.
Good to know there are knowledgable fans of this sport still contributing here -- keep fighting the good fight Homer!
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
Fact is the Giants have guys at the skill positions who have the potential to make plays in Golladay, Toney, Shep, Robinson with Saquon thrown in for good measure. They are way more than street free agent types but the question is will they show up. We'll find out in two weeks. And they all don’t have to show, but you really need at least three. And if you can get that you can work in guys like Sills and Bachman who could be fine as 3-4 or 4-5 type receivers and you have the potential of a decent offense. The guy I really worry about is Golladay. He just hasn't looked the same since he hurt his knee in '20.
The other thing that is kind of interesting is that appears from what we’ve seen in pre-season is that the Giants offense will be schematically very different from what we’ve seen in the past. Whereas in the past with the Giants everything was vertical routes where somebody had to beat the coverage to get open, what Daboll/Kalfka appear to be doing is trying to scheme receivers open a lot more.
And just a note on Jones. I suspect that people are making this a little more complicated than it needs to be. In the end the bottom line question is are Daboll/Kalfka comfortable having him run their offense going forward. If so, they’ll working something out. If not they’ll move on based on what options are available going forward. What Jones has done in his career to date is pretty much irrelevant. And I would expect that what he has to work with at receiver this fall will get factored into their ultimate decision. I personally hoping like heck it works out and we can keep building. Otherwise we really will be starting over.
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In comment 15795316 mikeinbloomfield said:
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I just don't get actively rooting against him.
Who do you think is actively rooting against Jones? Having low expectations of him is not synonymous with rooting against him. Are people criticizing Golladay rooting against him too?
Everyone on this site wants Jones to succeed because it means the Giants succeed. The difference is that many people see him dragging the team down with his poor play and want him replaced (just like Golladay).
The "I am a better fan than you because I have rose colored glasses" is getting really ridiculous on this site.
Replaced with who? Taylor? Where does that get us? Some great FA QB who doesn't exist and would wreck the cap anyway? Excellent.
The point is, Jones is their best option now. He's gone after this year. If Schoen decides to sign him to a deal, I'll bitch then but until then I'm fine with him playing out his rookie contract. Even if I wasn't (as a lot of folks aren't), what's the alternative? He's here and his success is directly tied to the team playing well. Get over it.
Get over what? You are insulting other fans because most of them won't tell you what you want to hear. Most of us root for the team at the expense of individual players, not for individual players at the expense of the team.
Root for the team however you like, but stop attacking others who see the situation differently than you.
Nice points otherwise but I'm stealing Corso's "Not so Fast" if Jones does not work out. As long as the OL comes together (and a few other other things) and the D works towards being outstanding (I think both are in play) starting over with a hand picked QB in the draft is a pretty good place going forward imv. That contract gives a lot of flexibility if executed correctly imv. Of course that QB needs "enough" of the right stuff pretty quick.
I do recognize that gray area if Jones is actually pretty damn good and that is quite the dilemma to make a decision on.
Such is the NFL.
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In comment 15795377 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15795316 mikeinbloomfield said:
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I just don't get actively rooting against him.
Who do you think is actively rooting against Jones? Having low expectations of him is not synonymous with rooting against him. Are people criticizing Golladay rooting against him too?
Everyone on this site wants Jones to succeed because it means the Giants succeed. The difference is that many people see him dragging the team down with his poor play and want him replaced (just like Golladay).
The "I am a better fan than you because I have rose colored glasses" is getting really ridiculous on this site.
Replaced with who? Taylor? Where does that get us? Some great FA QB who doesn't exist and would wreck the cap anyway? Excellent.
The point is, Jones is their best option now. He's gone after this year. If Schoen decides to sign him to a deal, I'll bitch then but until then I'm fine with him playing out his rookie contract. Even if I wasn't (as a lot of folks aren't), what's the alternative? He's here and his success is directly tied to the team playing well. Get over it.
Get over what? You are insulting other fans because most of them won't tell you what you want to hear. Most of us root for the team at the expense of individual players, not for individual players at the expense of the team.
Root for the team however you like, but stop attacking others who see the situation differently than you.
I am not rooting for Daniel Jones, over the team. In fact, I am pretty sure he's gone next year and I am fine with that. I was against him getting picked where he was. But it is not realistic to say "fix QB now with some other unidentified player," which is what some posters are on here saying. I am fine with Schoen's current plan, as I understand it, which is to play out Jones' contract and then start over at QB from there. And its not changing.
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is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
Jones is still on a rookie contract. Our WR corps is one of the highest paid in the NFL. So yeah..I'd say Jones is earning his paycheck...the WRs? Not so much.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Fact is the Giants have guys at the skill positions who have the potential to make plays in Golladay, Toney, Shep, Robinson with Saquon thrown in for good measure. They are way more than street free agent types but the question is will they show up. We'll find out in two weeks. And they all don’t have to show, but you really need at least three. And if you can get that you can work in guys like Sills and Bachman who could be fine as 3-4 or 4-5 type receivers and you have the potential of a decent offense. The guy I really worry about is Golladay. He just hasn't looked the same since he hurt his knee in '20.
The other thing that is kind of interesting is that appears from what we’ve seen in pre-season is that the Giants offense will be schematically very different from what we’ve seen in the past. Whereas in the past with the Giants everything was vertical routes where somebody had to beat the coverage to get open, what Daboll/Kalfka appear to be doing is trying to scheme receivers open a lot more.
And just a note on Jones. I suspect that people are making this a little more complicated than it needs to be. In the end the bottom line question is are Daboll/Kalfka comfortable having him run their offense going forward. If so, they’ll working something out. If not they’ll move on based on what options are available going forward. What Jones has done in his career to date is pretty much irrelevant. And I would expect that what he has to work with at receiver this fall will get factored into their ultimate decision. I personally hoping like heck it works out and we can keep building. Otherwise we really will be starting over.
This year already is starting over. I know you know this, but you can't rebuild every position on the field in year one. QB is just a position that needs to be addressed in year 2 of the rebuild.
Other than a few random folks who think we should start Taylor (we shouldn't), this is the point most are making. The frustration is that we are stuck with a QB that is obviously not the answer and that is frustrating heading into the season. That is NOT the same as rooting against Jones.
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is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
I didn't start the thread. Why not ask Eric what the rules are? Isn't all this talk unnecessary at this time? If Jones stinks we will move on, and then we can spent the next three years watching a new QB develop as we continue to lose games. My point is, Don't we want to root for him to succeed?
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
👀
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In comment 15795763 bluesince56 said:
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is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
I didn't start the thread. Why not ask Eric what the rules are? Isn't all this talk unnecessary at this time? If Jones stinks we will move on, and then we can spent the next three years watching a new QB develop as we continue to lose games. My point is, Don't we want to root for him to succeed?
By that logic, ALL talk on this site is unnecessary at ALL times, because we don't actually control the outcome of anything the Giants do on the field or in the front office (except when fan backlash makes John Mara squirm). If your goal is to avoid any conversations related to the Giants until they are fait accompli, then my advice would be that you should avoid BBI rather than BBI avoiding any particular Giants-related topics simply because you don't agree with their relevance.
As for the very crux of your second point, did the Chiefs, Ravens, Chargers, or Bengals have to wait 3 years before their young QBs began winning games? Or perhaps your viewpoint has become outdated?
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Yep, color me not surprised.
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
If true, Jones has this year to change their minds. That's always been the case anyway. Make or break season.
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
If true, Jones has this year to change their minds. That's always been the case anyway. Make or break season.
His usage so far is somewhat telling. More short stuff to boost his confidence. I don't think what we are seeing is Daboll's idea of an advanced offense.
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In comment 15795802 Section331 said:
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In comment 15795763 bluesince56 said:
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is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
I didn't start the thread. Why not ask Eric what the rules are? Isn't all this talk unnecessary at this time? If Jones stinks we will move on, and then we can spent the next three years watching a new QB develop as we continue to lose games. My point is, Don't we want to root for him to succeed?
By that logic, ALL talk on this site is unnecessary at ALL times, because we don't actually control the outcome of anything the Giants do on the field or in the front office (except when fan backlash makes John Mara squirm). If your goal is to avoid any conversations related to the Giants until they are fait accompli, then my advice would be that you should avoid BBI rather than BBI avoiding any particular Giants-related topics simply because you don't agree with their relevance.
As for the very crux of your second point, did the Chiefs, Ravens, Chargers, or Bengals have to wait 3 years before their young QBs began winning games? Or perhaps your viewpoint has become outdated?
completely true.
I have sympathy for folks who can't cope with criticism of Jones. I understand they feel it is too much at times. They can avert their eyes. Or read another thread. They are also welcome to bitch back at the critics. It's a free world and should be a free forum. But criticism of Daniel Jones is fair game on a NY Giants forum. This isn't a Hollywood Blockbuster forum, or an In Vitro Fertilization forum, or a DIY Garage forum, it's a NY Giants forum.
In other words, they're going to manufacture and use sleight of hand. This can reduce some of the talent shortcomings some guys have, and puts them in a better position to succeed. They're likely to see a lot of Cover Two and zone under looks, to try and press passing lanes and shrink the windows on Jones, which is one of his biggest weaknesses. Force the offense to drive ten+ plays and try to force mistakes.
In other words, they're going to manufacture and use sleight of hand. This can reduce some of the talent shortcomings some guys have, and puts them in a better position to succeed. They're likely to see a lot of Cover Two and zone under looks, to try and press passing lanes and shrink the windows on Jones, which is one of his biggest weaknesses. Force the offense to drive ten+ plays and try to force mistakes.
A lot of what you say seems correct but game planning around a limited QB is a tough long term assignment in the NFL of 2022. It's just bad strategy. It's going against the grain of the league in a way that puts us at a significant disadvantage. We ultimately have to upgrade the position. Period.
I think teams will first take away the run against us and they might even try to take away Jones' short stuff and force him to beat us in the intermediate zone and deep to the hashes, where he has had a lot of problems.
We know 26 is an impact player when he's healthy. Let's assume he's healthy. So, let's make him priority #1 to limit and stop. Keep him between the tackles and be physical...
And then leave it in 8's hands to make plays...
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
If true, Jones has this year to change their minds. That's always been the case anyway. Make or break season.
His usage so far is somewhat telling. More short stuff to boost his confidence. I don't think what we are seeing is Daboll's idea of an advanced offense.
Of course you want to build his confidence. You want to give him every chance to succeed. As to an advanced offense, most wrinkles aren't put on display during pre-season, for any team. Take into account no K-Tone, no Shep, new Wan'Dale and a ? Kenny G, I wouldn't expect much beyond vanilla. It's a new system with a lot of new parts and some damaged parts. Plus maybe nobody on the roster to take off the top.
The O's gonna be a lot of quick hit, slant, bubble screen, back shoulder stuff. Deep stuff is likely to be sneaky double moves.
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In comment 15795897 MOOPS said:
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
If true, Jones has this year to change their minds. That's always been the case anyway. Make or break season.
His usage so far is somewhat telling. More short stuff to boost his confidence. I don't think what we are seeing is Daboll's idea of an advanced offense.
Of course you want to build his confidence. You want to give him every chance to succeed. As to an advanced offense, most wrinkles aren't put on display during pre-season, for any team. Take into account no K-Tone, no Shep, new Wan'Dale and a ? Kenny G, I wouldn't expect much beyond vanilla. It's a new system with a lot of new parts and some damaged parts. Plus maybe nobody on the roster to take off the top.
The O's gonna be a lot of quick hit, slant, bubble screen, back shoulder stuff. Deep stuff is likely to be sneaky double moves.
I agree. I am not saying we have seen it all, or even a lot. But a lot of this preseason, as far as Jones is concerned, feels a little like last preseason. Get him confident. Don't try anything too fancy. Limit his exposure. And then when the season starts he can't run much more than a rudimentary offense. When are we going to see this kid try to air it out? It feels like two consecutive regimes are telling us, he can't.
However, this year he FINALLY has a functional situation around him that will allow a fair evaluation.
*Decent coaching staff.
*Decent Offensive Line.
*Healthy Barkley at RB.
So he will be expected to produce with his group of TEs and WRs.
As long as that has improved, there are no excuses.
Is it? what's the difference if they are all pros but his WR's don't get open, get seperation, or make any catches, and that's if they take the field at all.
As a wise woman who knows about these things once said " He cannot throw the ball to himself and catch it himself."
Make or break it time for DJ.
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according to the Cult. Not in college, not in the pros. Or anything else for that matter. No scheme has been good either. No good offensive coordinators. Not a single one, anywhere. Poor, poor Daniel.
That the common thread through all this misery is Daniel is apparently lost on the Cult.
Thank goodness the silly season of delusion is finally over. What a colossal waste of energy these offseasons are for this team anymore and the ludicrous takes by the beligerent bullies on this site. The denial for many on this site is exceeded only by the inexplicable and seemingly endless denial of the Giants ownership itself.
Now we can get back to the urgent business of getting to rock bottom asap. If that means going winless this year so we can rid ourselves of this hot garbage roster, so be it. The good news is, Daniel Jones and this morose cadre of overdrafted, disinterested and overpaid receivers gives us the best chance of doing so.
Good to know there are knowledgable fans of this sport still contributing here -- keep fighting the good fight Homer!
My favorite post of the day so far...nice job.
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
They'll just dismiss it as a unsourced rumor, because that's easy.
Really, the HC and GM were never and are never going to openly tell you what they feel about a player through the interviews. It's active sabotage to do so because anything they say will be used against them.
Watch what they do, not what they say.
Someone else had the right analogy earlier this month. Jones is the starter. They will live with him because they inherited him. They will give him rope and see what he does with it, and they are not tied to him in any way. Team is not built to win this year, so they are working with what they have.
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
Quote:
both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
They'll just dismiss it as a unsourced rumor, because that's easy.
Really, the HC and GM were never and are never going to openly tell you what they feel about a player through the interviews. It's active sabotage to do so because anything they say will be used against them.
Watch what they do, not what they say.
Someone else had the right analogy earlier this month. Jones is the starter. They will live with him because they inherited him. They will give him rope and see what he does with it, and they are not tied to him in any way. Team is not built to win this year, so they are working with what they have.
Yep. Add clearly the 2022 draft QBs didn't impress them so they invested everywhere/anywhere else. Why even spark the conflict of a young QB to add noise in the building.
I have used the rope analogy before too...
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In comment 15795802 Section331 said:
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In comment 15795763 bluesince56 said:
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is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
I didn't start the thread. Why not ask Eric what the rules are? Isn't all this talk unnecessary at this time? If Jones stinks we will move on, and then we can spent the next three years watching a new QB develop as we continue to lose games. My point is, Don't we want to root for him to succeed?
By that logic, ALL talk on this site is unnecessary at ALL times, because we don't actually control the outcome of anything the Giants do on the field or in the front office (except when fan backlash makes John Mara squirm). If your goal is to avoid any conversations related to the Giants until they are fait accompli, then my advice would be that you should avoid BBI rather than BBI avoiding any particular Giants-related topics simply because you don't agree with their relevance.
As for the very crux of your second point, did the Chiefs, Ravens, Chargers, or Bengals have to wait 3 years before their young QBs began winning games? Or perhaps your viewpoint has become outdated?
If you had read my comments I did say maybe Jones will stink and we will have to move on. We are all Giants fans here. Just because I disagree with you I should avoid this site? Really? I have been a Giants fan for 65 years so because I don’t agree with other fans I should not post my point of view. Is this what we are becoming here? Just like the rest of society now. Let’s not listen to others. My view is the only one that counts. BTW, it’s interesting you name the teams that had success with new QBs. How about the Jets, Browns, Patriots? It’s a crap shoot
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In comment 15795802 Section331 said:
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In comment 15795763 bluesince56 said:
Quote:
is just incredible. Eric brings up a value point regarding Jones and the receivers and the knives come out. He's our QB. Root for him to succeed
So we shouldn't shit on the QB, but it's OK to shit on the WR's?
Just trying to understand the rules here.
I didn't start the thread. Why not ask Eric what the rules are? Isn't all this talk unnecessary at this time? If Jones stinks we will move on, and then we can spent the next three years watching a new QB develop as we continue to lose games. My point is, Don't we want to root for him to succeed?
By that logic, ALL talk on this site is unnecessary at ALL times, because we don't actually control the outcome of anything the Giants do on the field or in the front office (except when fan backlash makes John Mara squirm). If your goal is to avoid any conversations related to the Giants until they are fait accompli, then my advice would be that you should avoid BBI rather than BBI avoiding any particular Giants-related topics simply because you don't agree with their relevance.
As for the very crux of your second point, did the Chiefs, Ravens, Chargers, or Bengals have to wait 3 years before their young QBs began winning games? Or perhaps your viewpoint has become outdated?
If you had read my comments I did say maybe Jones will stink and we will have to move on. We are all Giants fans here. Just because I disagree with you I should avoid this site? Really? I have been a Giants fan for 65 years so because I don’t agree with other fans I should not post my point of view. Is this what we are becoming here? Just like the rest of society now. Let’s not listen to others. My view is the only one that counts. BTW, it’s interesting you name the teams that had success with new QBs. How about the Jets, Browns, Patriots? It’s a crap shoot
As for the very crux of your second point, did the Chiefs, Ravens, Chargers, or Bengals have to wait 3 years before their young QBs began winning games? Or perhaps your viewpoint has become outdated?
The Giants don’t even have the non-QB talent level of the Bengals, let alone anything close to those other teams you mentioned. I’ll never understand the BBI-ism that QBs are just winning games and performing completely independent of the surrounding roster and coaching staff.
I recall reading about how bad Jones was in a practice a few weeks ago with little mention of the fact he was facing the 1st team defense with Golladay, Collin Johnson, Rickie James, and Daniel Bellinger getting the majority of the first team reps. I hope that when this front office chooses their next QB, they’ll do an infinitely better job of supporting that player than what DG did with Jones. In his only non-horrendous season, Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, and Evan Engram got the majority of the targets.
If he was “tremendous” they wouldn’t have let him walk. Injury prone junk stat guy even in Detroit.
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Rodgers, for instance, and Mahomes, would love to have him.
If he was “tremendous” they wouldn’t have let him walk. Injury prone junk stat guy even in Detroit.
Yeah, people said the same thing about Stafford. They let him go for a reason .
Bradberry also isn't a junk stat guy, and the Giants let him walk.
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
They'll just dismiss it as a unsourced rumor, because that's easy.
Really, the HC and GM were never and are never going to openly tell you what they feel about a player through the interviews. It's active sabotage to do so because anything they say will be used against them.
Watch what they do, not what they say.
Someone else had the right analogy earlier this month. Jones is the starter. They will live with him because they inherited him. They will give him rope and see what he does with it, and they are not tied to him in any way. Team is not built to win this year, so they are working with what they have.
I agree that we should study what the coaches and gm decide with the roster instead of what they say. If Daboll and Schoen knew before the draft that Daniel Jones was not their guy and then passed on a talented qb like Willis just to water snaps on a qb you know is not the future. Seems to me the better option would have been to take a shot with a guy like a Willis.
Keeping Jones because they inherited him seems like a poor reason.
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with some of his WRs, they're going to have to create mismatches and stretch the field horizontally ... lots of motion to try and get favorable matchups and create confusion, use a variety of screens, natural picks, drag routes etc to get the defense running east and west. This will create room for the RBs to run, and then they pull the LBs and safeties up with playaction to create vertical surface to attack 15+ yards downfield. This is exactly what they employed versus the Bengals, and to their credit it worked, albeit against second stringers.
In other words, they're going to manufacture and use sleight of hand. This can reduce some of the talent shortcomings some guys have, and puts them in a better position to succeed. They're likely to see a lot of Cover Two and zone under looks, to try and press passing lanes and shrink the windows on Jones, which is one of his biggest weaknesses. Force the offense to drive ten+ plays and try to force mistakes.
A lot of what you say seems correct but game planning around a limited QB is a tough long term assignment in the NFL of 2022. It's just bad strategy. It's going against the grain of the league in a way that puts us at a significant disadvantage. We ultimately have to upgrade the position. Period.
I think teams will first take away the run against us and they might even try to take away Jones' short stuff and force him to beat us in the intermediate zone and deep to the hashes, where he has had a lot of problems.
I'm not saying they'll be effective, just that this seems the likely approach on offense. They have to help Jones create space, favorable matchups, and try to keep the passing lanes and windows open for him. I wouldn't expect his issues with reading, processing, or speeding up his release to improve much. I'm on record literally since they drafted Jones that he's not the guy for the future.
We know 26 is an impact player when he's healthy. Let's assume he's healthy. So, let's make him priority #1 to limit and stop. Keep him between the tackles and be physical...
And then leave it in 8's hands to make plays...
Yep, put a Cover Two in front of them with Zone Under and let's see if they have a clue with how to attack it in 2022.
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In comment 15796066 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
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both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
They'll just dismiss it as a unsourced rumor, because that's easy.
Really, the HC and GM were never and are never going to openly tell you what they feel about a player through the interviews. It's active sabotage to do so because anything they say will be used against them.
Watch what they do, not what they say.
Someone else had the right analogy earlier this month. Jones is the starter. They will live with him because they inherited him. They will give him rope and see what he does with it, and they are not tied to him in any way. Team is not built to win this year, so they are working with what they have.
I agree that we should study what the coaches and gm decide with the roster instead of what they say. If Daboll and Schoen knew before the draft that Daniel Jones was not their guy and then passed on a talented qb like Willis just to water snaps on a qb you know is not the future. Seems to me the better option would have been to take a shot with a guy like a Willis.
Keeping Jones because they inherited him seems like a poor reason.
They could simultaneously have thought two separate things: 1) DJ is not the guy, and 2) the roster was not yet ready in 2022 to start the clock on the next rookie QB contract.
And that's assuming that they even had decent grades on any of the 2022 QB prospects. But leaving that aside for the moment, there's still just a chance that it made more sense in Schoen & Daboll's collective minds to wait another year to start the clock on the next rookie QB contract because that initial four year window is the very best advantage any team can get from a cap perspective, if the QB is good early.
That said, if Willis turns into the next elite franchise QB, it will obviously look like a wasted opportunity. Right now, Willis looks very exciting, and it'll be interesting to see if he can keep that up assuming he gets any playing time in the regular season this year.
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In comment 15796089 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15796066 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15795850 Mike from SI said:
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In comment 15795352 JonC said:
Quote:
both Jones and the WR unit stink.
I heard from a very well-connected NFL writer that both the coach and GM think that DJ is not good. Yes, this is asshat info, and yes, I believe it.
Thanks Mike. "Not good" is a wake-up call for some here clinging to the theme that Schoen and Daboll are still evaluating...
They'll just dismiss it as a unsourced rumor, because that's easy.
Really, the HC and GM were never and are never going to openly tell you what they feel about a player through the interviews. It's active sabotage to do so because anything they say will be used against them.
Watch what they do, not what they say.
Someone else had the right analogy earlier this month. Jones is the starter. They will live with him because they inherited him. They will give him rope and see what he does with it, and they are not tied to him in any way. Team is not built to win this year, so they are working with what they have.
I agree that we should study what the coaches and gm decide with the roster instead of what they say. If Daboll and Schoen knew before the draft that Daniel Jones was not their guy and then passed on a talented qb like Willis just to water snaps on a qb you know is not the future. Seems to me the better option would have been to take a shot with a guy like a Willis.
Keeping Jones because they inherited him seems like a poor reason.
They could simultaneously have thought two separate things: 1) DJ is not the guy, and 2) the roster was not yet ready in 2022 to start the clock on the next rookie QB contract.
And that's assuming that they even had decent grades on any of the 2022 QB prospects. But leaving that aside for the moment, there's still just a chance that it made more sense in Schoen & Daboll's collective minds to wait another year to start the clock on the next rookie QB contract because that initial four year window is the very best advantage any team can get from a cap perspective, if the QB is good early.
That said, if Willis turns into the next elite franchise QB, it will obviously look like a wasted opportunity. Right now, Willis looks very exciting, and it'll be interesting to see if he can keep that up assuming he gets any playing time in the regular season this year.
Thanks for the response. You’re right about the timing of the qb contract. Since Willis was a third round pick and considered somewhat of a project, I was thinking that would give them a little time to round out the roster while giving him summer snaps to see what they have. It’s kind of a time crunch I suppose.
Really it did not even have to be Willis either. If they are near certain they won’t have Jones next year then take a shot with one of the rookie qbs that had a decent grade and see what happens. Although it probably isn’t as easy as I am making it out to be.
I have watched almost every one of Willis's snaps in preseason. He is struggling with accuracy and timing. But there are signs that he's advancing. I mean, playing at Liberty obviously limited his exposure to complex schemes. What's good for him is Tennessee is going to let him slowly adjust to the learning curve.
His arm looks as live as ever, btw, and he looks great running. There is no doubt he is an NFL athlete - easily.
It's early, but, JFC, Tennessee may have struck gold if this works out...
So if hangs himself with the rope they are giving him then they move on to the next QB draft without any fights. If he does the unlikely and kills it then they can tag him.
They did what they were looking to do in 2022...
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In comment 15795344 Producer said:
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Rodgers, for instance, and Mahomes, would love to have him.
If he was “tremendous” they wouldn’t have let him walk. Injury prone junk stat guy even in Detroit.
Yeah, people said the same thing about Stafford. They let him go for a reason .
Bradberry also isn't a junk stat guy, and the Giants let him walk.
They "let Stafford go"? They got picks and a starting QB in return. They let KG walk for absolutely nothing other than getting rid of a headache. Hardly comparable
The point is, teams let players walk for more reasons than "he must not be that good"
The point is, teams let players walk for more reasons than "he must not be that good"
Your point isn't lost. BUT, they absolutely let KG walk because he wasn't that good.
I suspect the NFL people had a big problem with the Auburn situation (as I did and some others who post) and was part of the drop. Be interesting to see where it goes.
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thought was a non-winner stat compiler 12 months ago, for picks and a near washout placeholder QB nobody expects anything from.
The point is, teams let players walk for more reasons than "he must not be that good"
Your point isn't lost. BUT, they absolutely let KG walk because he wasn't that good.
You really know that? How do you know they didn't just say "well we have a bunch of picks in the draft ; we're not really that good; why have some guy who is going to eat up a bynch of our cap space when we can draft someone ..."
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thought was a non-winner stat compiler 12 months ago, for picks and a near washout placeholder QB nobody expects anything from.
The point is, teams let players walk for more reasons than "he must not be that good"
Your point isn't lost. BUT, they absolutely let KG walk because he wasn't that good.
They let KG walk because they felt he quit on the team. They didn’t want him around a young locker room. That DG saw that and said, “yeah, I want that” tells us all we need to know about his reign.
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In comment 15796924 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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thought was a non-winner stat compiler 12 months ago, for picks and a near washout placeholder QB nobody expects anything from.
The point is, teams let players walk for more reasons than "he must not be that good"
Your point isn't lost. BUT, they absolutely let KG walk because he wasn't that good.
You really know that? How do you know they didn't just say "well we have a bunch of picks in the draft ; we're not really that good; why have some guy who is going to eat up a bynch of our cap space when we can draft someone ..."
I know that because it's the same team who made Megatron the highest paid player in the NFL. Same with Stafford. They didn't even make an attempt to extend or sign KG. And replace him? They drafted Amon Ra St Brown in the later rounds of the draft. It's not like they had a replacement in mind. Nobody wants KG...at least not for the insane price we paid.
Whoops, there goes the narrative - ( New Window )
I know that because it's the same team who made Megatron the highest paid player in the NFL. Same with Stafford. They didn't even make an attempt to extend or sign KG. And replace him? They drafted Amon Ra St Brown in the later rounds of the draft. It's not like they had a replacement in mind. Nobody wants KG...at least not for the insane price we paid.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. Megatron was an instant star player in his rookie year -- which was 2007? He retired a HOFer--or just under that-- 7 years ago.
That is a lifetime in the NFL. Since then the Lions have clearly sucked and clearly in rebuild mode. Nobody thinks Goff is really a better QB than Stafford. They did that trade because he is a starting level QB -- that can take them through a rebuild; which extending Golladay made little sense.
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I know that because it's the same team who made Megatron the highest paid player in the NFL. Same with Stafford. They didn't even make an attempt to extend or sign KG. And replace him? They drafted Amon Ra St Brown in the later rounds of the draft. It's not like they had a replacement in mind. Nobody wants KG...at least not for the insane price we paid.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. Megatron was an instant star player in his rookie year -- which was 2007? He retired a HOFer--or just under that-- 7 years ago.
That is a lifetime in the NFL. Since then the Lions have clearly sucked and clearly in rebuild mode. Nobody thinks Goff is really a better QB than Stafford. They did that trade because he is a starting level QB -- that can take them through a rebuild; which extending Golladay made little sense.
This is why nobody responds to you...you basically argue my point for me. They got PICKS and Goff for Stafford. The point is, Golladay wasn't some sought after beast of a player. He's a guy who quit on the Lions(who didn't try to resign him) and got overpaid by the Giants.
Not to trample the narrative over the player you all love to hate, but the Lions considered a sign and trade since he was an asset they thought maybe could bring something in a trade, but in the end, they couldn't fit such a contract under their cap at the time. Whoops, there goes the narrative - ( New Window )
How does that trample on my narrative? They still wanted him gone, a S&T only means they thought they could get something for him. Whoops there goes your narrative.
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I know that because it's the same team who made Megatron the highest paid player in the NFL. Same with Stafford. They didn't even make an attempt to extend or sign KG. And replace him? They drafted Amon Ra St Brown in the later rounds of the draft. It's not like they had a replacement in mind. Nobody wants KG...at least not for the insane price we paid.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. Megatron was an instant star player in his rookie year -- which was 2007? He retired a HOFer--or just under that-- 7 years ago.
That is a lifetime in the NFL. Since then the Lions have clearly sucked and clearly in rebuild mode. Nobody thinks Goff is really a better QB than Stafford. They did that trade because he is a starting level QB -- that can take them through a rebuild; which extending Golladay made little sense.
This is why nobody responds to you...you basically argue my point for me. They got PICKS and Goff for Stafford. The point is, Golladay wasn't some sought after beast of a player. He's a guy who quit on the Lions(who didn't try to resign him) and got overpaid by the Giants.
A=>B
B<>C
Just because the Lions didn't want him does not mean no one did. The Lions did not want him perhaps , but you are not making any solid case for NO ONE ELSE wanting him. Extending an expensive player when you have a ton of pics and in rebuild mode just doesn't make sense for the Lions. That is all that I've seen so far.
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In comment 15797115 Debaser said:
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I know that because it's the same team who made Megatron the highest paid player in the NFL. Same with Stafford. They didn't even make an attempt to extend or sign KG. And replace him? They drafted Amon Ra St Brown in the later rounds of the draft. It's not like they had a replacement in mind. Nobody wants KG...at least not for the insane price we paid.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. Megatron was an instant star player in his rookie year -- which was 2007? He retired a HOFer--or just under that-- 7 years ago.
That is a lifetime in the NFL. Since then the Lions have clearly sucked and clearly in rebuild mode. Nobody thinks Goff is really a better QB than Stafford. They did that trade because he is a starting level QB -- that can take them through a rebuild; which extending Golladay made little sense.
This is why nobody responds to you...you basically argue my point for me. They got PICKS and Goff for Stafford. The point is, Golladay wasn't some sought after beast of a player. He's a guy who quit on the Lions(who didn't try to resign him) and got overpaid by the Giants.
A=>B
B<>C
Just because the Lions didn't want him does not mean no one did. The Lions did not want him perhaps , but you are not making any solid case for NO ONE ELSE wanting him. Extending an expensive player when you have a ton of pics and in rebuild mode just doesn't make sense for the Lions. That is all that I've seen so far.
Like it's been said on here a million times before...DG outbid himself on Kenny G. Yeah.,maybe some teams would have taken him on the cheap, but we turned him into a leper. Nobody will trade for him and he is uncuttable...and Detroit is laughing at us.
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hard to believe we couldn't spare a 2nd or 3rd to take a shot at him.
I have watched almost every one of Willis's snaps in preseason. He is struggling with accuracy and timing. But there are signs that he's advancing. I mean, playing at Liberty obviously limited his exposure to complex schemes. What's good for him is Tennessee is going to let him slowly adjust to the learning curve.
His arm looks as live as ever, btw, and he looks great running. There is no doubt he is an NFL athlete - easily.
It's early, but, JFC, Tennessee may have struck gold if this works out...
He has traits you just can't teach, just like Josh Allen. It would have been fun to see him in blue.
Jones is neither accurate nor good at reading defenses, fyi.
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Are far more important than running. Again, which is why he fell to the 3rd round. If he doesn’t want to stand in the pocket - he won’t be long for the NFL.
Jones is neither accurate nor good at reading defenses, fyi.
No shit. Which is why I don’t want him after this year and wasn’t interested in another guy who couldnt.
No one disagrees that Willis needs to be better - much better - delivering the ball from the pocket to become an NFL starter.
And I believe those skills can be developed. The Bills developed and improved those for Allen. Downing and O'Hara are going to be tested to see if they can do the same for Willis in Nashville.
But running is an asset in today's game. And you really can't teach that skill. You can't teach what LJax does he runs. You can't teach what JAllen does when he runs. You can't teach what Murray does. So, the ability to improvise in that manner is a huge advantage for Willis.
You and I agree on Hurts. I think Lamar is a better version but still not good enough to take you to the SB. And Willis may be worse than both.
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Are far more important than running. Again, which is why he fell to the 3rd round. If he doesn’t want to stand in the pocket - he won’t be long for the NFL.
No one disagrees that Willis needs to be better - much better - delivering the ball from the pocket to become an NFL starter.
And I believe those skills can be developed. The Bills developed and improved those for Allen. Downing and O'Hara are going to be tested to see if they can do the same for Willis in Nashville.
But running is an asset in today's game. And you really can't teach that skill. You can't teach what LJax does he runs. You can't teach what JAllen does when he runs. You can't teach what Murray does. So, the ability to improvise in that manner is a huge advantage for Willis.
The difference is Josh Allen had little in the way of coaching in college. Malik Willis had some smart offensive minds.
You and I agree on Hurts. I think Lamar is a better version but still not good enough to take you to the SB. And Willis may be worse than both.
You say Lamar isn't good enough to win a SB, but it will happen that a QB of this style will eventually break through and win a title. The game is rapidly changing and it is inevitable. It is better to have a great QB in that style than a pocket mediocrity.
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But guys like Allen, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and even Dak look to make plays first with their arm and then use their legs to get it done. Guys like Lamar and Hurts look to do more damage with their legs and Willis looks like the same.
You and I agree on Hurts. I think Lamar is a better version but still not good enough to take you to the SB. And Willis may be worse than both.
You say Lamar isn't good enough to win a SB, but it will happen that a QB of this style will eventually break through and win a title. The game is rapidly changing and it is inevitable. It is better to have a great QB in that style than a pocket mediocrity.
And that QB will need to show he can throw it as well as they run it. And Lamar, hurts, and Willis don’t fit the bill.
I’ll take an above average pocket QB over an exceptionally talented running QB everyday of the week and 17x on Sunday. And I’ll win a helluva lot more than your style.
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In comment 15797476 GNewGiants said:
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But guys like Allen, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and even Dak look to make plays first with their arm and then use their legs to get it done. Guys like Lamar and Hurts look to do more damage with their legs and Willis looks like the same.
You and I agree on Hurts. I think Lamar is a better version but still not good enough to take you to the SB. And Willis may be worse than both.
You say Lamar isn't good enough to win a SB, but it will happen that a QB of this style will eventually break through and win a title. The game is rapidly changing and it is inevitable. It is better to have a great QB in that style than a pocket mediocrity.
And that QB will need to show he can throw it as well as they run it. And Lamar, hurts, and Willis don’t fit the bill.
I’ll take an above average pocket QB over an exceptionally talented running QB everyday of the week and 17x on Sunday. And I’ll win a helluva lot more than your style.
It's not "my style". Like you, I prefer great pocket passers. But if you think tremendously talented running QBs can't take a title, I think you're either being obstinate or naive. It will happen. And let's not forget, Lamar, for instance is improving dramatically as a passer. How good does he need to be to go along with his run tool to win a title? We'll find out, I guess. I personally don't favor spitting into the wind when it comes to the changing tides of the game.
Really??
I must say, you and Gator seem very good at dupe detection.
If that is indeed Britt, let me say this: Welcome back. Always good to see old friends... ;)
Just like all of his excuses he's gotten his entire career