| Saquon Barkley looks like he is back to his old form after overcoming all the injuries. He singlehandedly won the game for the Giants with his playmaking talent. And Giants fans rejoice that you won the game, but don’t believe the Daniel Jones stat sheet. Yes, he only had four incompletions, but he still processes too slowly and cannot protect the ball, fumbling once again on Sunday. When Jones plays against a fast, active moving third-down team, he will struggle badly. Against the Titans, he was 2-for-10 on third down. |
I think he nails it here. Saquon was such a force on Sunday.
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I agree he is an idiot, but the grain of truth here is the field processing issues and the example I give from that game isn’t the sack obviously, but the INT. I just don’t get how he threw that ball
When a QB is in his wind-up; is about to throw the ball; and a blind-side defender comes screaming off the edge and claws at the QBs throwing hand...
...well, that ball is going to hit the ground.
Over and out.
Well if anyone knows what an incompetent GM and FO would look like - it would be Mike himself.
He's also a sleeze ball and should have been suspended for what happened with the Randy Moss trade. Guy is no good and proved to be a horrible GM as well.
Classic bias. He says 49 things that are spot on and if the 50th like the fumble comment was sloppy, and it was, everything is garbage.
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Things a lot of people in the media and on here have said. People hate on Lombardi but he’s been dead right about the Giants the last five years.
Well if anyone knows what an incompetent GM and FO would look like - it would be Mike himself.
He's also a sleeze ball and should have been suspended for what happened with the Randy Moss trade. Guy is no good and proved to be a horrible GM as well.
That doesn’t mean he’s wrong.
However, this was DJ's first full regular season game in this new offense. Against one of the better run teams in the league, IMO.
And....it appeared overall somewhat promising, sans the INT in the endzone.
One can hope that Jones performs better as he gets more comfortable in Daboll's offense.
The flip side is he won't always have Barkley running like that and will have to rely on others to help him out - which might not work out for NYG.
There was one stat yesterday that he was under pressure on 52 percent of his non blitz drop backs. With regard to processing speed that stat tells me that he probably had to 'process' faster than every other qb. That's at least part of the issue, no?
Im hoping that the 52% was due more to Tenn pass rush being really good rather than our pass pro being really bad. Stringing wins together with a number like that seems a tall order.
We’re simply not capable of watching the Titan interior pass rush and secondary outperform the Giants interior OL and WRs, leading to a bunch of check downs(taking what the Defense gives) and failed 3rd down conversions.
Glad this talking head summed it all up with…..the QB sux.
Jones was ok on Sunday. We don't need a fucking referendum on this guy every single week, especially a week that saw the Giants offense play well enough to win.
HE was fine. Not great. Not bad. He kept his job and allowed himself more time time to shine or fail.
Jones was ok on Sunday. We don't need a fucking referendum on this guy every single week, especially a week that saw the Giants offense play well enough to win.
HE was fine. Not great. Not bad. He kept his job and allowed himself more time time to shine or fail.
It’s a prove it year, every week is a referendum because very week matters in the Giants decision on whether to keep him or not.
Obviously not thrilled with the End Zone pick but I’ll take the play to Shep and the rest of his day, no problem.
No one needs to make an excuse! IF the Giants scored 14 pts and lost? Ok fine.
HE held serve. ANYONE can see that if they just shut up for five minutes and watch the game with NO MEMORY of the last 3 seasons. But no, we cannot do that. Every pass, stumble and mumble needs to be dissected and picked apart and I need to scream from the hilltops that Daniel Jones will always suck. No you don't. And why? Because it's week fucking one and if Jones goes 300 and 3 TDs in week 2 we're going to pull the crank starter yet again and go bananas that Jones has finally arrived--and that too would be shortsighted and completely unnecessary.
There's no rush. There's no urgency to formulate a bedrock opinion on this guy unless you're looking to be Mr Right and say I told you so. It's too fucking soon. You waited this long...wait another few months.
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let the over analysis begin! Didn't take long.
Jones was ok on Sunday. We don't need a fucking referendum on this guy every single week, especially a week that saw the Giants offense play well enough to win.
HE was fine. Not great. Not bad. He kept his job and allowed himself more time time to shine or fail.
It’s a prove it year, every week is a referendum because very week matters in the Giants decision on whether to keep him or not.
No it won't. One week? Cmon. Week 1 won't be the determining factor and you know it. Week 1-18 (and more, hopefully) will be the determining factor.
It's called a compilation. Jones just had one of the better games in his career, team wise, and this place still cannot wait to formulate the hot takes. And it would be just as dumb if someone said he's the goods, lock him up.
You cannot find a more impossible game to use as final judgement than game 1. And i'd bet the coaching staff feels the same way. They are happy with the win and know work needs to be done. But BBI knows it's time to move on. Yea right.
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He’s done every other year. The offense being new isn’t an excuse. He had a full camp and preseason.
No one needs to make an excuse! IF the Giants scored 14 pts and lost? Ok fine.
HE held serve. ANYONE can see that if they just shut up for five minutes and watch the game with NO MEMORY of the last 3 seasons. But no, we cannot do that. Every pass, stumble and mumble needs to be dissected and picked apart and I need to scream from the hilltops that Daniel Jones will always suck. No you don't. And why? Because it's week fucking one and if Jones goes 300 and 3 TDs in week 2 we're going to pull the crank starter yet again and go bananas that Jones has finally arrived--and that too would be shortsighted and completely unnecessary.
There's no rush. There's no urgency to formulate a bedrock opinion on this guy unless you're looking to be Mr Right and say I told you so. It's too fucking soon. You waited this long...wait another few months.
Or people can do whatever they want on a message board. Don’t get your panties in a bunch.
The previous three years absolutely relevant when the same flaws from those seasons still pop up in year 4. Not sure why it’s such an egregious thing to point out the flaws in what was an average QB performance. It’s year 4 with a large financial decision looming, Jones can’t just “hold serve”, and until he puts some lights out performances on record this year there’s going to be criticism that he’d not the guy.
Forget the fumble I was just happy he got up after that hit he got destroyed
NOTHING was settled on Sunday other than we saw Jones play a decent game while making mistakes, on the road against a good but not great team. 28 or so QBs do this shit every week with some variances. We need to see more.
I would not compare camp and preseason to the regular season.
That is just completely unfair.
No player in a first year system doesn't get more comfortable as the regular season progresses? LOL
We’ve all been dead right about the Giants. They’ve been the most obviously bad team in the league for that time period. Lombardi is nothing special with that take.
NOTHING was settled on Sunday other than we saw Jones play a decent game while making mistakes, on the road against a good but not great team. 28 or so QBs do this shit every week with some variances. We need to see more.
Come on djm. This kind of reason take will not be tolerated here and you know that. Go stand in the corner.
As far as Jones goes I saw nothing new. He played like he always has. Below average. Not as bad as the worst starting QBs but not good enough. Not in the top 20 IMO.
Profound.
Josh allen threw 2 picks
When a QB is in his wind-up; is about to throw the ball; and a blind-side defender comes screaming off the edge and claws at the QBs throwing hand...
...well, that ball is going to hit the ground.
Over and out.
Not every QB is as slow to get to his wind-up.
But you have to give credit where credit is due, he drove the team down the field and took the lead late in the 4th Q. We haven’t seen much of that from him since his first start
They won the game. We've always said that's the only stat that really matters is W-L so fuck everything else. He played mediocre against a team that was in the AFC Championship game 6 months ago. Sheesh
Just throw it to Bellinger for the love of god.
From a situational awareness point, it bothers me a little bit. It's 2nd and 8 at the Titans 42 - 4 down territory. A throw to Bellinger would probably net about 4-5 yards and a manageable 3rd down where you would have options because you're likely going for it on 4th. There's really not urgency to take a deep shot there, but then again it could what the play is calling for.
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Love how “no excuses” this year has been abandoned after 1 week.
They won the game. We've always said that's the only stat that really matters is W-L so fuck everything else. He played mediocre against a team that was in the AFC Championship game 6 months ago. Sheesh
Last year doesn’t matter, except when last years results put the Giants in a positive light. Maybe the Titans aren’t the same Titans as last year? They did trade away their second best offensive weapon. We don’t know. What we do know is week 1 showed the same flaws in Jones that were evident for the last three years. Let’s see how often they pop up over the next 17 weeks.
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In comment 15816258 ajr2456 said:
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Love how “no excuses” this year has been abandoned after 1 week.
They won the game. We've always said that's the only stat that really matters is W-L so fuck everything else. He played mediocre against a team that was in the AFC Championship game 6 months ago. Sheesh
Last year doesn’t matter, except when last years results put the Giants in a positive light. Maybe the Titans aren’t the same Titans as last year? They did trade away their second best offensive weapon. We don’t know. What we do know is week 1 showed the same flaws in Jones that were evident for the last three years. Let’s see how often they pop up over the next 17 weeks.
First, the weren't in the AFC championship game, they were the no. 1 seed. And they didn't have their top offensive weapon for the last nine games of the 2021 season when they earned that No. 1 seed. He was back Sunday.
Now you just sound stupid.
What a douche thing to say
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
Thank you ERic. What I think is pretty funny, by this assessment anyone who fumbled when LT hit them from behind wasn't because LT was a great pass rusher it was becuase the QB held the ball too long. PERIOD. if your assessment on the Jones fumble is this idiotic stance (its on him) where he gets blasted by Simmons on a short drop, quick to the right throw just as he starts to throw then you are saying any QB who gets hit like that it is their fault.
If Jones stood in the pocket, waited for one guy to get one for 3 /4 seconds then gets hit that is on him. When the play is a fairly quick play to the right and the DT is drilling the QB in the back as he is throwing, that is on the Oline..
This. Jones did not have a great game and the INT was a very bad decision. But they did enough to win and cleaning up mistakes and knocking th rust off after this week I expect him to settle in
As far as Jones goes I saw nothing new. He played like he always has. Below average. Not as bad as the worst starting QBs but not good enough. Not in the top 20 IMO.
Its a he said-she said type argument. But if you read between the lines is when Oakland was trying to trade Moss, Lombardi told teams he couldnt run anymore and that he was washed up, but went to Belichick since he was friends with him and told him the real truth about him when he worked for Oakland. Then went back to Davis and told him NE was willing to trade and got pennies on the dollar for him.
He was fired immediately when word went down. But he claims that isnt true, but other sources as I recall have backed up this information.
If your whole schtick on this site is to blast Jones 24/7, then come up with better ammo. Because that's just pathetic.
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
Howard cross agrees. Listen to BBKOL yesterday. All the hall of fame QBs that fumbled from LT coming on a free rush have bad pocket awareness too
If your whole schtick on this site is to blast Jones 24/7, then come up with better ammo. Because that's just pathetic.
Immediately is taking some liberty. He made two reads on the play and had a guy wide open
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In comment 15816258 ajr2456 said:
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Love how “no excuses” this year has been abandoned after 1 week.
They won the game. We've always said that's the only stat that really matters is W-L so fuck everything else. He played mediocre against a team that was in the AFC Championship game 6 months ago. Sheesh
Last year doesn’t matter, except when last years results put the Giants in a positive light. Maybe the Titans aren’t the same Titans as last year? They did trade away their second best offensive weapon. We don’t know. What we do know is week 1 showed the same flaws in Jones that were evident for the last three years. Let’s see how often they pop up over the next 17 weeks.
Now making excuses for the Titans to paint DJ in a bad light. Things are getting weird around here.
You cant win with some people.
Wow Producer…..just when I thought you couldn’t possibly go any lower in your diatribes against Dimes, you proved me wrong.
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In comment 15816312 Everyone Relax said:
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In comment 15816258 ajr2456 said:
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Love how “no excuses” this year has been abandoned after 1 week.
They won the game. We've always said that's the only stat that really matters is W-L so fuck everything else. He played mediocre against a team that was in the AFC Championship game 6 months ago. Sheesh
Last year doesn’t matter, except when last years results put the Giants in a positive light. Maybe the Titans aren’t the same Titans as last year? They did trade away their second best offensive weapon. We don’t know. What we do know is week 1 showed the same flaws in Jones that were evident for the last three years. Let’s see how often they pop up over the next 17 weeks.
Now making excuses for the Titans to paint DJ in a bad light. Things are getting weird around here.
Saying maybe the Titans aren’t as good as the #1 seed Titans from last year is making excuses? It’s a year to year league.
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
That's completely unnecessary, Eric, and unbecoming of a site owner/admin. You shouldn't engage in base insults. It's beneath you. And you sound like somebody who can't be objective when it comes to the Giants. He has 3 seconds and the pocket is collapsing around him. And he has space to move. The fumble is on Jones. He can move up and to his right or he can unload the ball. Instead Jones decides he needs 5 seconds. He's the 5 second pocket quarterback. That doesn't fly in today's NFL. Sure other QBs might have muffed that particular play, it's a tough play, but you see this from Jones every week, sometimes 2 and 3 times a week. Great Q s are supposed to make tough plays, no? The only difference this week is Barkley was stellar and we won.
Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Allen, they fumble on a play like that one out of 10 times, maybe. Jones, it's 9 out of 10.
Jones was simply "attacked" on the play he fumbled, not showing some type of carelessness.
How that bad interception occurred and where on the field is what the GM and Daboll have to assess in concluding on Jones this season.
You cant win with some people.
Agreed.
I read an article this morning from a Charlotte beat talking about some parallels with the two teams and then about their games this past Sunday.
It was interesting to me to read an outsiders perspective on Jones who said he played a solid game Sunday. From a lot of the posts here that would seem like too high of praise, with the Giants winning in spite of DJ.
Some good, some not good. More good than bad week one.
If your whole schtick on this site is to blast Jones 24/7, then come up with better ammo. Because that's just pathetic.
Yeah again, not a Jones fan, but putting that fumble on him just exposes these folks as complete fakes and trolls.
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No one can objectively say the fumble was on Jones. He didn't hold the ball too long. He got clobbered immediately and he was blindsided by a 300 pound plus all-star DT who hit him full speed. Ezeudu didn't even slow him up a tenth of a second.
If your whole schtick on this site is to blast Jones 24/7, then come up with better ammo. Because that's just pathetic.
Immediately is taking some liberty. He made two reads on the play and had a guy wide open
I have no idea what you are talking about. Ezeudu didn't even slow him down.
https://youtu.be/TrqkDFVyW-0?t=144 - ( New Window )
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In comment 15816336 Producer said:
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
That's completely unnecessary, Eric, and unbecoming of a site owner/admin. You shouldn't engage in base insults. It's beneath you. And you sound like somebody who can't be objective when it comes to the Giants. He has 3 seconds and the pocket is collapsing around him. And he has space to move. The fumble is on Jones. He can move up and to his right or he can unload the ball. Instead Jones decides he needs 5 seconds. He's the 5 second pocket quarterback. That doesn't fly in today's NFL. Sure other QBs might have muffed that particular play, it's a tough play, but you see this from Jones every week, sometimes 2 and 3 times a week. Great Q s are supposed to make tough plays, no? The only difference this week is Barkley was stellar and we won.
Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Allen, they fumble on a play like that one out of 10 times, maybe. Jones, it's 9 out of 10.
The beauty of owning this site is I can call a turd a turd and get away with it.
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In comment 15816362 Eric from BBI said:
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No one can objectively say the fumble was on Jones. He didn't hold the ball too long. He got clobbered immediately and he was blindsided by a 300 pound plus all-star DT who hit him full speed. Ezeudu didn't even slow him up a tenth of a second.
If your whole schtick on this site is to blast Jones 24/7, then come up with better ammo. Because that's just pathetic.
Immediately is taking some liberty. He made two reads on the play and had a guy wide open
I have no idea what you are talking about. Ezeudu didn't even slow him down. https://youtu.be/TrqkDFVyW-0?t=144 - ( New Window )
Jones is in the shotgun and doesn’t get hit until 3 seconds in. That’s enough time to notice the tight end who was open from the start of the play. There was also room to step up to the right. Jones absolutely has some blame on the play.
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In comment 15816351 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15816336 Producer said:
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
That's completely unnecessary, Eric, and unbecoming of a site owner/admin. You shouldn't engage in base insults. It's beneath you. And you sound like somebody who can't be objective when it comes to the Giants. He has 3 seconds and the pocket is collapsing around him. And he has space to move. The fumble is on Jones. He can move up and to his right or he can unload the ball. Instead Jones decides he needs 5 seconds. He's the 5 second pocket quarterback. That doesn't fly in today's NFL. Sure other QBs might have muffed that particular play, it's a tough play, but you see this from Jones every week, sometimes 2 and 3 times a week. Great Q s are supposed to make tough plays, no? The only difference this week is Barkley was stellar and we won.
Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Allen, they fumble on a play like that one out of 10 times, maybe. Jones, it's 9 out of 10.
The beauty of owning this site is I can call a turd a turd and get away with it.
Good for you. Jones is in mid wind up when he's hit. Sloooow wind up. Other QBs that ball is out. You want a slow, dumb QB for the Giants, good for you. We're a 5 billion dollar organization, we can do better. Your defense dreck says more about you, than me.
The more egregious act was the INT.
Good for you. Jones is in mid wind up when he's hit. Sloooow wind up. Other QBs that ball is out. You want a slow, dumb QB for the Giants, good for you. We're a 5 billion dollar organization, we can do better. Your defense dreck says more about you, than me.
You tell the site owner how to act and not insult people yet call a person you never met slow and dumb?
Pot meet kettle.
He would have been hit in his throwing motion.
I can't even believe we are arguing about this.
The Giants just beat the Titans. No one gave them a chance. Jones was 17-of-21 for two touchdowns, an interception and a 116 QBR.
Yet this is the thing we're focused on?
DAK...RODGERS...BURROW....MURRAY...BRADY,but at least he won like DJ..
It wasnt even close to 3 seconds... lol.
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And was look at him with time to throw. He chose to go to his second read to Sills. It could be what the play called for, but it was not impossible for him to have gotten the ball out on that play had he thrown to Bellinger.
He would have been hit in his throwing motion.
I can't even believe we are arguing about this.
The Giants just beat the Titans. No one gave them a chance. Jones was 17-of-21 for two touchdowns, an interception and a 116 QBR.
Yet this is the thing we're focused on?
He would not have been hit in his throwing motion if he threw it when he first looked at Bellinger. It’s not all on Jones but owns some of the responsibility. 3 seconds from shotgun is plenty of time to hit a wide open receiver in the flat
I have been very critical of Jones. I still think the odds are that he won't be here next year.
It's impossible to take you seriously because you sound unhinged when it comes to Jones.
He would not have been hit in his throwing motion if he threw it when he first looked at Bellinger. It’s not all on Jones but owns some of the responsibility. 3 seconds from shotgun is plenty of time to hit a wide open receiver in the flat
It was not even close to 3 seconds. You have to time it from when he got the ball from when Simmons hit him. Like I said from the time he got the ball til he got hit it was 1.90 estimate.
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He would not have been hit in his throwing motion if he threw it when he first looked at Bellinger. It’s not all on Jones but owns some of the responsibility. 3 seconds from shotgun is plenty of time to hit a wide open receiver in the flat
It was not even close to 3 seconds. You have to time it from when he got the ball from when Simmons hit him. Like I said from the time he got the ball til he got hit it was 1.90 estimate.
This is nonsense. If Jones had any pre snap awareness he would have realized that the flat was left open and Bellinger would be wide open. All he needed was that first look at Bellinger and to throw it. The fumble is mostly on the oline, but Jones didn’t do himself any favors
And jones is constantly berated here for checking down early and not looking downfield.
Like I said, he will never win with some here.
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The defender is a full two yards away. He could have made that throw. The good QBs do.
And jones is constantly berated here for checking down early and not looking downfield.
Like I said, he will never win with some here.
There’s a difference between checking down early, and identifying a potential advantage pre snap and looking to exploit it. Bellinger probably gains 5-8 yards on that play.
This is nonsense. If Jones had any pre snap awareness he would have realized that the flat was left open and Bellinger would be wide open. All he needed was that first look at Bellinger and to throw it. The fumble is mostly on the oline, but Jones didn’t do himself any favors
Actually its not nonsense. Nonsense is saying he had 3 seconds to make a throw, which is utterly ridiculous. And lets face it, you, producer, and a few others berate and shit on Jones for every little thing. If he had checked it down to Jones - you would have shit on him for not looking down field to make a big play and called him check down Jones.
He will never win with some of you and thats fine and all. But it doesnt make you and a few others objective whatsoever.
Well, he got hit at 2 on that play.
There’s a difference between checking down early, and identifying a potential advantage pre snap and looking to exploit it. Bellinger probably gains 5-8 yards on that play.
And are you going to explain what the reads were? Maybe he thought another WR had a chance to get open for a big play. You guys assume everything the guy does is wrong.
Guess what, you guys are often more wrong than not.
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This is nonsense. If Jones had any pre snap awareness he would have realized that the flat was left open and Bellinger would be wide open. All he needed was that first look at Bellinger and to throw it. The fumble is mostly on the oline, but Jones didn’t do himself any favors
Actually its not nonsense. Nonsense is saying he had 3 seconds to make a throw, which is utterly ridiculous. And lets face it, you, producer, and a few others berate and shit on Jones for every little thing. If he had checked it down to Jones - you would have shit on him for not looking down field to make a big play and called him check down Jones.
He will never win with some of you and thats fine and all. But it doesnt make you and a few others objective whatsoever.
I would not have because unlike you I can look at the context of the play. There’s no debate he stated at an open receiver who had a good five yards ahead of him with plenty of time to make a throw. Nobody’s complaining if he checks that down and they get a first down
I have been very critical of Jones. I still think the odds are that he won't be here next year.
It's impossible to take you seriously because you sound unhinged when it comes to Jones.
You're tripping and must be reading selectively. I've commented on plenty of other Giant, football and non football threads. But yes, I do think Daniel Jones is a huge problem, even if we win, he limits us. If the QB stinks there isn't much more to talk about.
I didn't expect you to parrot bullies and trolls on the site. I choose to patronize the site you created. I deserve a little better than to be insulted over a disagreement about ANOTHER botched Jones play.
I would not have because unlike you I can look at the context of the play. There’s no debate he stated at an open receiver who had a good five yards ahead of him with plenty of time to make a throw. Nobody’s complaining if he checks that down and they get a first down
You look at the context of the play? LOL. I just asked you what the reads were and your first thought is to go probably to what is his last read.
Again, you have no idea of the play design or what Jones wanted to look for. But you will pretend that you do and dismiss others who disagree with you. But hey - he had those 3 seconds right? ( which is factually incorrect...haha)
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There’s a difference between checking down early, and identifying a potential advantage pre snap and looking to exploit it. Bellinger probably gains 5-8 yards on that play.
And are you going to explain what the reads were? Maybe he thought another WR had a chance to get open for a big play. You guys assume everything the guy does is wrong.
Guess what, you guys are often more wrong than not.
“Maybe he thought another WR had a chance” is exactly the issue. If his football IQ was where it needed to be for him to be a top 10 QB he would have noticed pre snap that the flat potentially would be wide open and his tight end would be running a route right to the open zone. QBs make those type of plays week in and week out.
And I’ve been right more often than not the past five years if we’re keeping score.
There’s multiple people to blame for the fumble, not sure why that’s such a hard concept when it comes to Jones.
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In comment 15816403 ajr2456 said:
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He would not have been hit in his throwing motion if he threw it when he first looked at Bellinger. It’s not all on Jones but owns some of the responsibility. 3 seconds from shotgun is plenty of time to hit a wide open receiver in the flat
It was not even close to 3 seconds. You have to time it from when he got the ball from when Simmons hit him. Like I said from the time he got the ball til he got hit it was 1.90 estimate.
This is nonsense. If Jones had any pre snap awareness he would have realized that the flat was left open and Bellinger would be wide open. All he needed was that first look at Bellinger and to throw it. The fumble is mostly on the oline, but Jones didn’t do himself any favors
So which one is it? He had three seconds and was too slow or he should’ve read it pre snap?
Maybe just maybe Bellinger wasn’t the first or second option on the play and why he didn’t dump it off to him and maybe if he actually had time he would’ve.
Here's your contect of a play. Throw it to the guy who is bracketed by two LBs. Thanks for breaking down the entire context of a play....lol
First its the WR in the middle now its the TE on the sideline. Whos the next person he could throw it too? lol
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I would not have because unlike you I can look at the context of the play. There’s no debate he stated at an open receiver who had a good five yards ahead of him with plenty of time to make a throw. Nobody’s complaining if he checks that down and they get a first down
You look at the context of the play? LOL. I just asked you what the reads were and your first thought is to go probably to what is his last read.
Again, you have no idea of the play design or what Jones wanted to look for. But you will pretend that you do and dismiss others who disagree with you. But hey - he had those 3 seconds right? ( which is factually incorrect...haha)
How is it his last read if he looks at him first?
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Had 3 seconds from a shotgun snap. That’s enough time to hit the recover coming cross the middle
Here's your contect of a play. Throw it to the guy who is bracketed by two LBs. Thanks for breaking down the entire context of a play....lol
First its the WR in the middle now its the TE on the sideline. Whos the next person he could throw it too? lol
I misspoke, I’m sure you never do that.
So with these type of stats like pretty much most you have to consider the big picture. The fundamentals. Lazy analysis imv. I would be interested in seeing what the distance was on each of those downs and where on the field (which also factors).
What did the Giants struggle in? Pass Protection. Where are they light in talent? WR's for now. Not a great combo to handle third downs imv. I'm sure Jones was part of the equation as well.
What a douche thing to say
Many bbi'ers pretty dumb too with the so called "slow processing" narrative. Solder, Hernandez and Engram will make you look like Joe Burrows.
You guys keep getting hung up on this. He gets hit when the clock hits three on Twitter video. Sorry I didn’t use a stop watch and go frame by frame.
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He had 3 seconds, huh? Just re-watched and timed the play multiple times. It was 2.3 seconds from the snap to the hit and 2 seconds from when Jones received the snap to when he's getting hit. A full second more and that ball is already out and at the receiver pretty much...
You guys keep getting hung up on this. He gets hit when the clock hits three on Twitter video. Sorry I didn’t use a stop watch and go frame by frame.
Maybe you should because than the context would be more accurate. Theres a big difference netween 1.9 seconds and 3 seconds in football.
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so far he has had no time to process a play over last three years. Now with to stud Tackles he is getting time and the processing has finally started. He will get better as season go along.
What a douche thing to say
Many bbi'ers pretty dumb too with the so called "slow processing" narrative. Solder, Hernandez and Engram will make you look like Joe Burrows.
Lombardi, Boomer and Steve Young must be in on the BBI narrative
He looked off Bellinger to check Sills. Again, that could be what the progression and play call asked for, so I'm not necessarily blaming Jones on this play, just debating that he had no hope.
I also wouldn't criticize him for a checkdown in that situation, 2nd and 8 from the Titans 42. Gaining 5-6 yards in that situation is a good outcome. Every QB checks down, it only becomes a problem when you aren't generating chunk plays and/or are losing with limited time left, or the down and distance is bad.
He looked off Bellinger to check Sills. Again, that could be what the progression and play call asked for, so I'm not necessarily blaming Jones on this play, just debating that he had no hope.
I also wouldn't criticize him for a checkdown in that situation, 2nd and 8 from the Titans 42. Gaining 5-6 yards in that situation is a good outcome. Every QB checks down, it only becomes a problem when you aren't generating chunk plays and/or are losing with limited time left, or the down and distance is bad.
They don't want to give an inch. They want us to come to each game with Jones like it's a clean slate. But it's not. We see thia over and over with Jones. He'll have 18 fumbles and 20 picks and this crowd will say only 5 are his fault. His nickname should be Teflon Danny Jones.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
QBs instinctively protect the ball when they dont see a blind side hit coming. Thats pretty interesting....
Only fools think that fumble is on Jones. Hit from the back side. Is he supposed to assume his lineman on the left side are going to whiff on every passing play???????
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He had 3 seconds, huh? Just re-watched and timed the play multiple times. It was 2.3 seconds from the snap to the hit and 2 seconds from when Jones received the snap to when he's getting hit. A full second more and that ball is already out and at the receiver pretty much...
You guys keep getting hung up on this. He gets hit when the clock hits three on Twitter video. Sorry I didn’t use a stop watch and go frame by frame.
As someone else said, maybe you should, because that's what the coaches will do and not the armchair GM's. From snap to hit it's 2.3 seconds, from receiving snap to hit, it's 2 seconds. The remaining .7 seconds or full 1 second is adding a lot of time when it comes to the context of knowing how much time he actually had... But carry on with narrative....
There was one stat yesterday that he was under pressure on 52 percent of his non blitz drop backs. With regard to processing speed that stat tells me that he probably had to 'process' faster than every other qb. That's at least part of the issue, no?
Im hoping that the 52% was due more to Tenn pass rush being really good rather than our pass pro being really bad. Stringing wins together with a number like that seems a tall order.
The processing part is pretty true. When things break down it starts looking sloppy. He isn’t horrible but the intangible isn’t there
My wife sits on the coach reading her book watching in and out. She notices it right away. Call it freezing. Call it pressing. Call it just being 3/10 of a second slower than he needs to be. It’s the reason we will need to upgrade at some point. He is good sometimes. But not enough times
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
Lol he was in a throwing motion. Wow.
Only fools think that fumble is on Jones. Hit from the back side. Is he supposed to assume his lineman on the left side are going to whiff on every passing play???????
You guys continue to make arguments that nobody else is making
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In comment 15816210 HMunster said:
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
Lol he was in a throwing motion. Wow.
Come on, we know that Jones didnt use the eyes in the back of his head. What good are they - if he doesnt use them?
Saqoun carried this team to victory, Lombardi is correct about that.
He has been the unsuccessful quarterback of the worse team in football for the past 4 years. I don’t care how mentality tough someone is, failure creates doubt which creates a tentativeness. Keep hearing he s slow to process, maybe he s just been too cautious and coached to play not to lose.
He made a few plays with his arm and legs that helped lead the team to victory. With every good play and victory his confidence will grow and we might see yet a guy who is much better than many believe.
I expect he will continue to grow in being more decisive and if he remains healthy just might perform to a level surprises his critics
That s still to be determined as is his status going forward
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In comment 15816426 bigblue5611 said:
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He had 3 seconds, huh? Just re-watched and timed the play multiple times. It was 2.3 seconds from the snap to the hit and 2 seconds from when Jones received the snap to when he's getting hit. A full second more and that ball is already out and at the receiver pretty much...
You guys keep getting hung up on this. He gets hit when the clock hits three on Twitter video. Sorry I didn’t use a stop watch and go frame by frame.
As someone else said, maybe you should, because that's what the coaches will do and not the armchair GM's. From snap to hit it's 2.3 seconds, from receiving snap to hit, it's 2 seconds. The remaining .7 seconds or full 1 second is adding a lot of time when it comes to the context of knowing how much time he actually had... But carry on with narrative....
What narrative? That the oline is a majority responsible for the sack but that Jones also deserves some blame? Why is this such an outrageous take?
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
No way the fumble is on him. Simmons got there quick from IOL. U aren’t avoiding that.
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block he made on Simmons was about as effective as what anyone on this thread could have done?
Only fools think that fumble is on Jones. Hit from the back side. Is he supposed to assume his lineman on the left side are going to whiff on every passing play???????
You guys continue to make arguments that nobody else is making
Actually Santa, just made this argument that Jones should instinctively held the ball. And you and a few others are placing at least some of the blame on Jones.
You're wrong. It's ok. Sometimes the defense makes a great play. Ezudu had a rough play, he will get better.
What narrative? That the oline is a majority responsible for the sack but that Jones also deserves some blame? Why is this such an outrageous take?
Because he doesnt deserve any of the blame.
Only fools think that fumble is on Jones. Hit from the back side. Is he supposed to assume his lineman on the left side are going to whiff on every passing play???????
Jones and Neal also have to work on their teamwork, Neal tends to get "beat" inside, and when Jones starts scrambling to his side that becomes an issue.
Did the QB guru Cutcliffe coach him not to lose at Duke too? Why’d he have the same issues coming out of college then?
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so far he has had no time to process a play over last three years. Now with to stud Tackles he is getting time and the processing has finally started. He will get better as season go along.
What a douche thing to say
Many bbi'ers pretty dumb too with the so called "slow processing" narrative. Solder, Hernandez and Engram will make you look like Joe Burrows.
The slow processing narrative that comes -directly- from multiple scouting reports on him?
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In comment 15816469 RollBlue said:
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block he made on Simmons was about as effective as what anyone on this thread could have done?
Only fools think that fumble is on Jones. Hit from the back side. Is he supposed to assume his lineman on the left side are going to whiff on every passing play???????
You guys continue to make arguments that nobody else is making
Actually Santa, just made this argument that Jones should instinctively held the ball. And you and a few others are placing at least some of the blame on Jones.
You're wrong. It's ok. Sometimes the defense makes a great play. Ezudu had a rough play, he will get better.
And sometimes there is a play to be made before the defense makes a great play. Two things are allowed to be true at the same time.
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In comment 15816210 HMunster said:
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
QBs instinctively protect the ball when they dont see a blind side hit coming. Thats pretty interesting....
Surely no one really thinks that if you replace Jones with any QB on that play from pre-snap to fumble, the outcome is inevitably going to be the same right?
I wonder what percentage of Jones' sacks result in a fumble. I have to imagine it's much higher than your average QB.
And sometimes there is a play to be made before the defense makes a great play. Two things are allowed to be true at the same time.
but not in this case...lol
But maybe Jones should have went off script and just ran a QB draw and gotten at least a few yards - that would have been a play to be made.
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And sometimes there is a play to be made before the defense makes a great play. Two things are allowed to be true at the same time.
but not in this case...lol
But maybe Jones should have went off script and just ran a QB draw and gotten at least a few yards - that would have been a play to be made.
Or he could have thrown it to the wide open tight end he looked at first and had nobody within five yards of him. You know QBs are allowed to use their brains and not go through all the reads the play designs right?
Surely no one really thinks that if you replace Jones with any QB on that play from pre-snap to fumble, the outcome is inevitably going to be the same right?
I wonder what percentage of Jones' sacks result in a fumble. I have to imagine it's much higher than your average QB.
And not every fumble is the same. Many are Jones' fault. I saw Joe Burrow fumble on basically the same exact play this weekend. Blind sits are a bitch. Even the best like Brady and Rodgers fumble on them.
Wait a sec. I remember in a playoff off game Rodgers didnt see a blind side hit from Osi. And he fumbled the ball. And we recovered. See - it happens to the best of them too.
Wait in 2007, didnt Brady also fumble in the SB on a strip sack from Osi? Man - their instincts were lacking there.
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In comment 15816353 MartyNJ1969 said:
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so far he has had no time to process a play over last three years. Now with to stud Tackles he is getting time and the processing has finally started. He will get better as season go along.
What a douche thing to say
Many bbi'ers pretty dumb too with the so called "slow processing" narrative. Solder, Hernandez and Engram will make you look like Joe Burrows.
The slow processing narrative that comes -directly- from multiple scouting reports on him?
lol at college scouting reports of slow processing. Herbert dropped because he had the same "concerns". It's borderline impossible to tell on tape. Even seems like NFL teams do a terrible job even with interviewing QBs at the blackboard.
Not sure what people want out of a James Richie led aerial assault.
Every draft pick is risky. You can’t lose if you don’t play it. Sticking with sub par QB play because you’re scared of missing is not the way to run a franchise
Or he could have thrown it to the wide open tight end he looked at first and had nobody within five yards of him. You know QBs are allowed to use their brains and not go through all the reads the play designs right?
And like I said - you dont know what else was going on in that play and maybe he was looking for a biugger play. Because people heere never complain about him taking the checkdown route, right?
I am happy to know now for the rest of the year you will NEVER complain about him checking it down, even if he has time.
The fumble isn't 100 percent on him, or even 50 percent, but he had a throw he could've made.
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In comment 15816210 HMunster said:
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Every single QB in the NFL would have fumbled that.
Every single QB would have fumbled if they were holding the ball the way Jones does when contact is about to occur. But not every QB does that! Some instinctively protect it.
Lol he was in a throwing motion. Wow.
Right, and that's my point... not every QB would still be in a throwing motion at that stage, and some may not have entered it at all and taken the sack.
I'm not saying he's a bad QB because of that fumble, but I' also can't project that same play outcome to every single QB in the league either.
Actually I use game situations that Santa brought up (he mnetioned strip sacks and top QBs) and compared the situations. Never compared them as players, so please dont put words in my mouth.
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Or he could have thrown it to the wide open tight end he looked at first and had nobody within five yards of him. You know QBs are allowed to use their brains and not go through all the reads the play designs right?
And like I said - you dont know what else was going on in that play and maybe he was looking for a biugger play. Because people heere never complain about him taking the checkdown route, right?
I am happy to know now for the rest of the year you will NEVER complain about him checking it down, even if he has time.
And like I said, looking for a bigger play is part of his issues. A good QB realizes pre snap that the defense is leaving the flat open unless someone comes up at the snap, once he looks at Bellinger and sees the defender never came up any idea of looking down field should go out the window on 2nd and 8. That’s not a check down, it’s taking the smart play.
Right, and that's my point... not every QB would still be in a throwing motion at that stage, and some may not have entered it at all and taken the sack.
He should have known his LG completely whiffed on a block and should have assumed that he was going to get blasted? LOL
Oh goodness, this is getting good.
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Take a shot!
Actually I use game situations that Santa brought up (he mnetioned strip sacks and top QBs) and compared the situations. Never compared them as players, so please dont put words in my mouth.
Not all strip sacks have a wide open tight end in the flat.
Not all strip sacks have a wide open tight end in the flat.
Or guys bracketed in the middle of the field. But Rodgers had a guy wide open for a TD in my example too. God damn Rodgers. Am I right?
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Not all strip sacks have a wide open tight end in the flat.
Or guys bracketed in the middle of the field. But Rodgers had a guy wide open for a TD in my example too. God damn Rodgers. Am I right?
You can make an example like this any time any player makes a bad play.
Most of the time it will be disingenuous.
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Not all strip sacks have a wide open tight end in the flat.
Or guys bracketed in the middle of the field. But Rodgers had a guy wide open for a TD in my example too. God damn Rodgers. Am I right?
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that he stared right at the tight end with nobody near him and keep bringing up me thinking of the routes on a different play?
You are a clown.
Well done.
In comment 15816552 ambr0se201 said:
In comment 15816478 joeinpa said:
Saqoun carried this team to victory, Lombardi is correct about that.
He has been the unsuccessful quarterback of the worse team in football for the past 4 years. I don’t care how mentality tough someone is, failure creates doubt which creates a tentativeness. Keep hearing he s slow to process, maybe he s just been too cautious and coached to play not to lose.
He made a few plays with his arm and legs that helped lead the team to victory. With every good play and victory his confidence will grow and we might see yet a guy who is much better than many believe.
I expect he will continue to grow in being more decisive and if he remains healthy just might perform to a level surprises his critics
That s still to be determined as is his status going forward
I'm clearly one of Jones's biggest critics, but it's not out of the ordinary for any QB to fumble in that situation.
You might be able to argue Jones doesn't have enough intuition for the position to feel that pressure - which is a different argument and fair - but it's a blind side hit and those lead to fumbles.
Further, I think Jones was looking for the bigger play there by looking off Bellinger and probably going to Still on the fly pattern. But the sack is coming even if Jones goes to Bellinger.
The Titans coverage was a mess. There were blown assignments all over the place. They keep playing like this and their DC Shane Bowen is a goner. And Jones repeatedly failed to exploit the mistakes. The missed coverage on Sheperd’s TD was fortunately so bad that Jones’ poor pass ended up being caught anyway.
I don't know. It's very close because Jones does not have a quick release. That's just not in his game. So, IMV, expecting Jones to execute something that is not in his skill set is a stretch to me.
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Him. The argument made by many when it’s pointed out Jones has the same amount of time to throw as Brady and others, is that their WRs are wide open and then can throw it right away. Here he had a guy wide open he could have thrown it to right away.
I don't know. It's very close because Jones does not have a quick release. That's just not in his game. So, IMV, expecting Jones to execute something that is not in his skill set is a stretch to me.
That’s fair.
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that good QBs would certainly have committed the exact outcome as Jones did, that none of them are often capable of having two hands on the ball for a longer period because their release is so much faster or that none of them have that intangible pockent "feel" that helps them realize the clock is shorter than they thought on that play, then there's really not much you can do. It can't be disproven. Jones is once again simply a victim of circumstance that would thwart all QBs. The dog ate his left guard.
I'm clearly one of Jones's biggest critics, but it's not out of the ordinary for any QB to fumble in that situation.
Sure, I mean I'm not arguing that a better QB would DEFINITELY have produced a more successful outcome there than a fumble. I'm not the one making a definitive argument out of something that can never be proven. Those saying "all QBs would fumble on that play" are.
The Titans coverage was a mess. There were blown assignments all over the place. They keep playing like this and their DC Shane Bowen is a goner. And Jones repeatedly failed to exploit the mistakes. The missed coverage on Sheperd’s TD was fortunately so bad that Jones’ poor pass ended up being caught anyway.
I have watched that Shep TD play closely. To Jones's credit, he does complete the throw despite not being able to get totally set because Ezeudu had been pummeled and thrown near Jones's feat like a ragdoll by Simmons.
Sure, I mean I'm not arguing that a better QB would DEFINITELY have produced a more successful outcome there than a fumble. I'm not the one making a definitive argument out of something that can never be proven. Those saying "all QBs would fumble on that play" are.
I get it. I'm just trying to stay within the reasonability zone. And to me it's not unreasonable for Jones to fumble that ball based on the where the rush is coming from and Jones's average release.
But yes, there were players running wide open all day against the Titans secondary, which bodes well for the Kafka offense. Sometimes Jones made the play, sometimes pressure got to him, and sometimes he missed good plays (the 3rd and 5 sack in the 3rd quarter being the most egregious). Overall, he had an OK game but the overall concerns remain the same.
Get it through your skulls: Nobody hates this motherfucker, nobody wants him to fail, but he hasn't shown a goddamn thing in three years, he deserves criticism and lots of it.
Oh wait, I forgot, we aren't supposed to criticize him until he has an all-pro line and elite weapons right?
I hope he turns a corner this year, so enough with this "boo hoo everybody is mean to Jones" nonsense. He needs to perform, and if he needs a pro-bowl squad to perform then he isn't the guy.
Nothing about week 1 changed that.
Though not too harsh to suggest that Jones doesn’t process and execute things quickly enough in his overall game. There are plenty of examples and this one isn’t really needed to support that claim as true.
Might want to be careful trying so hard to win the debate on this play either way because it’s not really needed.
Games usually come down to four or five plays and we were on the right side of most of those plays.
The unsung hero of the game was the defense in the second quarter. Holding Tennessee to those two FGs instead of TDs kept the game within reach.
The hole is obviously much deeper at 17-0 or 21-0.
By looking at Bellinger initially, he may have wanted the corner to jump the route and by doing that we could have sneaked a WR behind him for a big game. One of the things Daboll told Jones all summer was to make big time throws. However, since the corner sat - Jones make the right read by trying to getting it out to Bellinger. Unfortunately though Simmons blows the play up in less than 2 seconds, not 3 seconds by some people here. If Jones actually has 3 seconds, he completes it. Is that what happened? Maybe maybe not. But it definitely could have.
It was a great play design, it was the right read by Jones but a better play by Simmons. Blaming Jones for this is just the same people who blame him for every thing.
If you watch that play closely, Jones does see Bellinger in the flat. But then he subtly turns his head and looks at Sills running the fly.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
I'll admit it.
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as well for years and the never-ending blame game debates. Particularly when he started his decline and there were many here that couldn't and didn't want to believe it.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
We looked awful in the first half. Unlike previous years, the coaching staff adjusted. That's huge! My confidence in this new regime is that the staff will make attempts to correct the deficiencies they observed during the film review as well as during the game. If the pass blocking wasn't acceptable, you can be sure efforts will be made in practices to improve.
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He has been the unsuccessful quarterback of the worse team in football for the past 4 years. I don’t care how mentality tough someone is, failure creates doubt which creates a tentativeness. Keep hearing he s slow to process, maybe he s just been too cautious and coached to play not to lose.
Did the QB guru Cutcliffe coach him not to lose at Duke too? Why’d he have the same issues coming out of college then?
Probably for the same reasons Phil Simms had coming out of Moorhead St
Jones was simply "attacked" on the play he fumbled, not showing some type of carelessness.
How that bad interception occurred and where on the field is what the GM and Daboll have to assess in concluding on Jones this season.
100% correct
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It's on him.
Wow Producer…..just when I thought you couldn’t possibly go any lower in your diatribes against Dimes, you proved me wrong.
Fans spin what they see to fit their narrative, pro Jones, critics of Jones
But blaming that fumble in n him is just totally lacking any objectivity
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In comment 15816613 Jimmy Googs said:
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as well for years and the never-ending blame game debates. Particularly when he started his decline and there were many here that couldn't and didn't want to believe it.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
I touched on this in the comments in my Next Day Thoughts on Monday. When I look at the plays Jones makes this year I ask myself "how many other starters in the NFL would have done that".
I think a lot of NFL starters would have made a the throw to Shepard, but not all, 15-20...
I don't think many would have thrown the INT in the End Zone, maybe 5???
With that being said, I think almost every QB in the league would have fumbled on that hit from Simmons. This isn't some 3rd string scrub that came firing through the line, he's a pro bowl caliber DT who got a running start and little resistance from the LG blocking him. Not fumbling in that situation would almost be luck.
I get trying to call things down the middle, but putting that fumble on Jones tells me you read a stat line and didn't actually watch the play.
I'll admit it.
You should have been. Give Eli 2/3 components and you win a lot of games with a quality defense.
1. Running game
2. Adequate PB Oline. More important as he was a PP.
3. Upper tier or solid WR's
Last time he had 2/3 was 2011. He had number 2 and 3 (upper tier WR's).
Find a season where he had 2/3 again post 2011. You can't imv unless you want to say OBJ (by himself) is upper tier.
Only people who didn't understand Eli or those not understanding offensive football would take the shots at Eli.
I get trying to call things down the middle, but putting that fumble on Jones tells me you read a stat line and didn't actually watch the play.
Or more likely that they simply have an agenda when it comes to Jones.
Also, the third down miss right before the muffed punt return was a very nice read and throw by Jones, James just dropped it
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In comment 15816623 Producer said:
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In comment 15816613 Jimmy Googs said:
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as well for years and the never-ending blame game debates. Particularly when he started his decline and there were many here that couldn't and didn't want to believe it.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
There is no way this is a real comment
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I get trying to call things down the middle, but putting that fumble on Jones tells me you read a stat line and didn't actually watch the play.
Or more likely that they simply have an agenda when it comes to Jones.
I thin this is part of it. He has been very critical of the Giants and I believe he hated DG. Probably pained him to have to compliment SB so he had to go a little extreme on Jones to balance it out.
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I get trying to call things down the middle, but putting that fumble on Jones tells me you read a stat line and didn't actually watch the play.
Or more likely that they simply have an agenda when it comes to Jones.
Also a likely option
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In comment 15816634 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15816623 Producer said:
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In comment 15816613 Jimmy Googs said:
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as well for years and the never-ending blame game debates. Particularly when he started his decline and there were many here that couldn't and didn't want to believe it.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
There is no way this is a real comment
Just like you really aren't the #1 Giants Fan in MD...
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In comment 15816478 joeinpa said:
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He has been the unsuccessful quarterback of the worse team in football for the past 4 years. I don’t care how mentality tough someone is, failure creates doubt which creates a tentativeness. Keep hearing he s slow to process, maybe he s just been too cautious and coached to play not to lose.
Did the QB guru Cutcliffe coach him not to lose at Duke too? Why’d he have the same issues coming out of college then?
Probably for the same reasons Phil Simms had coming out of Moorhead St
It’s 2022
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
And I will contend still likely fumble even with better QBs.
Because I miss being a contrarian to obvious facts :-)
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In comment 15816664 Producer said:
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In comment 15816634 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15816623 Producer said:
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In comment 15816613 Jimmy Googs said:
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as well for years and the never-ending blame game debates. Particularly when he started his decline and there were many here that couldn't and didn't want to believe it.
Some of the posters here sound just like those guys :-)
And not for nothing, Jones didn't have a chance here. Unless of course part of his pre-snap read should have included Simmons destroying our OL even moreso than he was up to that point in the game...
Sure. No QB ever had a faster windup. No QB ever took a step to evade pressure. How many times have we seen this from Jones? It's going to happen over and over again and we'll get more excuses. Apparently in the most important position in football, Jones has no control over anything.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
There is no way this is a real comment
Just like you really aren't the #1 Giants Fan in MD...
How would you know cupcake?
Jones was ok on Sunday. We don't need a fucking referendum on this guy every single week, especially a week that saw the Giants offense play well enough to win.
HE was fine. Not great. Not bad. He kept his job and allowed himself more time time to shine or fail.
This right here..and if SB plays like this he doesn't have to be great...
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In comment 15816351 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15816336 Producer said:
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
That's completely unnecessary, Eric, and unbecoming of a site owner/admin. You shouldn't engage in base insults. It's beneath you. And you sound like somebody who can't be objective when it comes to the Giants. He has 3 seconds and the pocket is collapsing around him. And he has space to move. The fumble is on Jones. He can move up and to his right or he can unload the ball. Instead Jones decides he needs 5 seconds. He's the 5 second pocket quarterback. That doesn't fly in today's NFL. Sure other QBs might have muffed that particular play, it's a tough play, but you see this from Jones every week, sometimes 2 and 3 times a week. Great Q s are supposed to make tough plays, no? The only difference this week is Barkley was stellar and we won.
Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Allen, they fumble on a play like that one out of 10 times, maybe. Jones, it's 9 out of 10.
The beauty of owning this site is I can call a turd a turd and get away with it.
Haha +1
Can Jones go on Foles type run in the playoffs? Past history says it’s unlikely
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I get trying to call things down the middle, but putting that fumble on Jones tells me you read a stat line and didn't actually watch the play.
Or more likely that they simply have an agenda when it comes to Jones.
Its pretty pathetic and sad but that's the internets for you.
Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
There is no way this is a real comment
Just like you really aren't the #1 Giants Fan in MD...
How would you know cupcake?
your reply back...
It was actually well underthrown. Shepherd had to slow way down to catch it, then made a nice move to make the corner miss, that's what made it a TD.
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let the over analysis begin! Didn't take long.
Jones was ok on Sunday. We don't need a fucking referendum on this guy every single week, especially a week that saw the Giants offense play well enough to win.
HE was fine. Not great. Not bad. He kept his job and allowed himself more time time to shine or fail.
This right here..and if SB plays like this he doesn't have to be great...
Haha, cool. A built-in ceiling for desired NYG QB play. Just be ok and let's rely on Saquon and the other team missing a FG at the end...
better yet,
career.
Some QBs turn the ball over a whole lot than less than others and still throw 2 or more touchdowns a game.
I like those QBs.
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Of course he has control over things. And I agree he's not talented enough to expect too many clean games which is why we saw that bad interception in the end zone.
But pushing on this fumble play is a bridge too far...
I would contend it's because we have grown to accept Jones the pocket statue with no rush awareness. But better QB, most likely no fumble.
There is no way this is a real comment
Just like you really aren't the #1 Giants Fan in MD...
How would you know cupcake?
your reply back...
The one that wasn’t to you? 🤡
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In comment 15816489 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15816478 joeinpa said:
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He has been the unsuccessful quarterback of the worse team in football for the past 4 years. I don’t care how mentality tough someone is, failure creates doubt which creates a tentativeness. Keep hearing he s slow to process, maybe he s just been too cautious and coached to play not to lose.
Did the QB guru Cutcliffe coach him not to lose at Duke too? Why’d he have the same issues coming out of college then?
Probably for the same reasons Phil Simms had coming out of Moorhead St
It’s 2022
Thanks. Don’t know what that has to do with anything, but it seems to be the go to whenever it s pointed out the best Giants quarterback ever took 5 years to get there.
I get the rookie contract thing, but that does not preclude that some quarterbacks take longer to develop. Circumstances, of which have not been good for Jones, can have something to do with that, but late developers have happened before
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Wait until KT is a full time player (coaches sending the right message to an unreliable second year player - you don't practice you don't play - you haven't earned the Allen Iverson treatment yet) in this offense and DJ gets more reps in the offense. Time will tell, but the people ballyhooing that DJ is a backup QB in this league is nauseating. Is he a guy you resign? Who knows at this point, but we'll have a definitive answer either way by the end of the year.
Seen lots of people put "stats" limits on QBs when if DJ gave us the type of play he did yesterday in Garretts offense we are probably leaving the game with maybe a TD and zero on DJ's stat sheet.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Geno Smith, of course...
:-)
It was week 1 in a new offense, on the road vs last year's #1 ranked AFC team.
He did fine. He will get better in this offense.
Jones has played in 3 different offenses, mostly without his best weapons, weak offensive lines and the last 2 yrs in a terrible offense overall.
Too many Giants fans are so scarred from the last 5 or 6 seasons of torture they can't just enjoy a win
Jones made some big plays.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
He's been in multiple offenses mostly without his best players around him.
What QB could have been successful in the same situation? Very few if any IMO
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
He's been in multiple offenses mostly without his best players around him.
What QB could have been successful in the same situation? Very few if any IMO
Justin Herbert has been in a different offense every year going back to his junior year of college.
Excuses, excuses, excuses
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon to name a few. They did it with a different teams.
I think people who are considering Jones moving forward are placing a very high standard to even consider retaining him. Circumstances he has faced don't apply anymore imv and if he becomes a late bloomer story it will be somewhere else imv.
What a douche thing to say
Do you really want to dig in on this? I'm happy to show you pocket time metrics that disprove this. DJ actually had more time, on average, than Rodgers, Brady, Herbert, and Mahomes, in 2021. The difference is that their average pocket time is low because they're getting the ball out more quickly, not because they're under pressure more quickly.
But the point still stands that - at least in 2021 - in less time than it took DJ to either throw, get sacked, or take off running, more successful QBs were able to complete their play. So the issue isn't entirely about DJ being under duress at all times. Some of the duress is self-inflicted because he processes the game slowly.
If it were purely about not having enough time to even process the field and go through his progressions, we'd see DJ's average pocket time reflect that. Based simply on the elite QBs who succeed with less average pocket time, is it not fair to state that a QB should be able to successfully read the field and make a play with an average pocket time of 2.3 - 2.4 seconds? That's the range that many of the elite QBs landed within for 2021.
DJ's average pocket time was 2.5 seconds in 2021. He had - on average - more time in the pocket than most of the game's best QBs. So how does he bear no responsibility in the minds of the DJFC?
Judge is still here if Jones was throwing for 30 TDs and 8 INTs, imo.
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Was not anything particularly special.
It was actually well underthrown. Shepherd had to slow way down to catch it, then made a nice move to make the corner miss, that's what made it a TD.
Yeah. Shepard made a good adjustment and a nice move.
I was talking more about the qb side of the play. The read was the better part of the play for the quarterback rather than the throw.
It’s the NFL, nobody is wide open every single play. You’re going to have complete tight throws or throw guys open.
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon to name a few. They did it with a different teams.
Uh, nearly all of those are precap examples and before the current rules were developed to favor QBs to succeed faster.
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He’s done every other year. The offense being new isn’t an excuse. He had a full camp and preseason.
It was week 1 in a new offense, on the road vs last year's #1 ranked AFC team.
He did fine. He will get better in this offense.
Jones has played in 3 different offenses, mostly without his best weapons, weak offensive lines and the last 2 yrs in a terrible offense overall.
Too many Giants fans are so scarred from the last 5 or 6 seasons of torture they can't just enjoy a win
Jones made some big plays.
Lots were whining about DJ not being perfect on that deep ball (although he put general accuracy on where you want to be there for sure off his back foot). Meanwhile, an ex NFL QB was literally gushing over the read.
The reality is most are rooting against him because of DG. I'm not sure if the right move is to resign him or not unless he really lights it up, but he's clearly a starting NFL QB in this league that put up with a lot of shit of dog shit in this org outside his control and I'll be rooting for him wherever he goes.
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Nice you posted pocket times. There is another factor in the equation. Your WR's have to get open. Problem with the QB guru's they always seem to miss certain important and very relevant factors.
It’s the NFL, nobody is wide open every single play. You’re going to have complete tight throws or throw guys open.
No argument about tight throws. There is a difference between a tight window and simply not being able to make a throw because of coverage and situation.
Collingsworth was talking about Evans the other night and how for Brady the slant is almost automatic. Evans wins his route consistently. I don't thing Jones has this right now but hopefully someone emerges.
No I didn’t, I replied to Producer who had replied to you 😂
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clueless...
No I didn’t, I replied to Producer who had replied to you 😂
Good lord...look at your 2:48pm post above and see who you replied that to. Do you have this much difficulty reading?
Not sure who is the bigger chucklehead posting right now, Maryland Blows or No1MDGiantsFan.
Just presume they are one in the same...
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In comment 15816789 ajr2456 said:
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon to name a few. They did it with a different teams.
Uh, nearly all of those are precap examples and before the current rules were developed to favor QBs to succeed faster.
Yes but QB's can emerge later in the right situation regardless if they enough talent. Case Keenum and Nick Foles are two more recent. Quite a few turned in Pro Bowl seasons that were not thought of highly. The poster said "average".
Truly believe he's headed for a career backup role. And thats okay. It's not some dirty word. Lots of teams miss on QB picks.
Uh, nearly all of those are precap examples and before the current rules were developed to favor QBs to succeed faster.
Yes but QB's can emerge later in the right situation regardless if they enough talent. Case Keenum and Nick Foles are two more recent. Quite a few turned in Pro Bowl seasons that were not thought of highly. The poster said "average".
I don't feel great using examples like Foles and Keenum, a third rounder and undrafted player, respectively.
A high investment like Jones should be expected to be ahead of the development curve.
That's true, but at a certain point, Occam's Razor starts to come into play, doesn't it? The DJFC likes to blame the OL, and then as soon as the pocket time is pointed out, they blame the WRs. They never blame DJ.
What's more likely, that the OL and WRs are entirely to blame for DJ's struggles, or that DJ bears some responsibility himself? And if the blame does actually fall on the OL and WRs, what are the chances that the same GM who did such a poor job of building the supporting cast somehow managed to choose the right QB?
I understand the desire to hope for DJ to be the guy - that would result in more Giants victories, which we all can agree is the goal. What I don't understand is the desire to blame all (or any) other Giants players in order to excuse DJ's play, when there is at least a possibility (in some cases, a likelihood) that DJ is part of the problem. Aren't the other guys worthy of your loving devotion just as much as DJ?
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He’s done every other year. The offense being new isn’t an excuse. He had a full camp and preseason.
It was week 1 in a new offense, on the road vs last year's #1 ranked AFC team.
He did fine. He will get better in this offense.
Jones has played in 3 different offenses, mostly without his best weapons, weak offensive lines and the last 2 yrs in a terrible offense overall.
Too many Giants fans are so scarred from the last 5 or 6 seasons of torture they can't just enjoy a win
Jones made some big plays.
Can’t enjoy a win, so true. I ve been on a fan high all week, stupid of me to get drawn back into this old argument and the negativity surrounding it.
Good win Giants, good win Daniel, let s get #2 Sunday !
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In comment 15816804 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15816789 ajr2456 said:
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon to name a few. They did it with a different teams.
Uh, nearly all of those are precap examples and before the current rules were developed to favor QBs to succeed faster.
Yes but QB's can emerge later in the right situation regardless if they enough talent. Case Keenum and Nick Foles are two more recent. Quite a few turned in Pro Bowl seasons that were not thought of highly. The poster said "average".
Did you really just use Case Keenum as an example?
Case Keenum who had a one-hit wonder anomaly season under - wait for it - Pat Shurmur? Is there any possibility that Shurmur made a crappy QB look good working with Keenum? And then Shurmur worked his QB magic again working with DJ his rookie year?
Case Keenum is exactly the example I'd use to suggest that DJ's rookie year is a mirage, and you chose to look at it as proof that a QB can succeed with a longer development curve. That seems to be a really interesting way to show both of our respective biases regarding DJ.
But Keenum is a dogshit QB. If he's your proof, you might not have enough proof.
It's hard to take that credibly. We can recite every excuse known to man. Talent, OL, WR, drops, coaching.
First round QBs all go to bad teams with bad coaches and bad talent because that's how you get to draft high. The ones who are successful survive because of hard work, but also natural ability. You either have it or don't. Rocks don't become gems with some careful cutting and polish. You're either a gem or not. Coaching and supporting cast are there to maximize your talent not plant it inside you.
I'm excited by the win, that excitement has a limit because no matter how we do in the regular season I can't see DJ winning us a playoff game. If anything unlike all the bleeding hearts for DJ, I feel bad for the other players who look like they might be able to do something this year were it not for a below average QB, who really tops out at average.
Do I blame DJ for that fumble? Do I think it was a bad play by him? No and no.
Do I think 100% of QBs fumble in that situation? No I do not. Especially a QB with athleticism, I've seen plenty feel the rush more, possibly tuck the ball, possibly start rolling and get tackled more from behind than full contact with their throwing arm in the back swing.
It's kind of indicative of the whole DJ victim mentality a lot of people have. QBs control the game, one of the most important positions in sports. I'm kind of taken aback from the idea that they don't always bear tons of responsibility good or bad. And that kind of ties back to the win/loss, he does get credit from this win, even showing his predictable warts. No one is really taking that away from him, but it is worthwhile to project forward and say well he did win but is he going to get the same game from Barkley? Will he get errors from the other team at the end of the game? Probably not something to count on the higher the stakes are for the game...
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In comment 15816789 ajr2456 said:
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
He's been in multiple offenses mostly without his best players around him.
What QB could have been successful in the same situation? Very few if any IMO
Justin Herbert has been in a different offense every year going back to his junior year of college.
Excuses, excuses, excuses
But he throws to Ekeler, Mike Williams, Henry, and Allen.
It's hard to take that credibly. We can recite every excuse known to man. Talent, OL, WR, drops, coaching.
First round QBs all go to bad teams with bad coaches and bad talent because that's how you get to draft high. The ones who are successful survive because of hard work, but also natural ability. You either have it or don't. Rocks don't become gems with some careful cutting and polish. You're either a gem or not. Coaching and supporting cast are there to maximize your talent not plant it inside you.
Not only that, they think Gettleman was on an island in his assertion that Jones was worthy of the 6th pick in the draft. A view that the majority of NFL mocked at the time.
But you can't hold our QB responsible for the poor inconsistent play of a few flawed players on the offensive roster. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole NYG franchise including the coaches and front office personnel. And if the whole NY Giant franchise system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of the entire National Football League in general? I put it to you all - isn't this then really an indictment of our entire American society?
Well...you can do whatever you want to Daniel Jones, but I for one am not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
Good evening...
But you can't hold our QB responsible for the poor inconsistent play of a few flawed players on the offensive roster. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole NYG franchise including the coaches and front office personnel. And if the whole NY Giant franchise system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of the entire National Football League in general? I put it to you all - isn't this then really an indictment of our entire American society?
Well...you can do whatever you want to Daniel Jones, but I for one am not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
Good evening...
Well done, Stratton. Well done.
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In comment 15816336 Producer said:
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It's on him.
Now you just sound stupid.
Thank you ERic. What I think is pretty funny, by this assessment anyone who fumbled when LT hit them from behind wasn't because LT was a great pass rusher it was becuase the QB held the ball too long. PERIOD. if your assessment on the Jones fumble is this idiotic stance (its on him) where he gets blasted by Simmons on a short drop, quick to the right throw just as he starts to throw then you are saying any QB who gets hit like that it is their fault.
If Jones stood in the pocket, waited for one guy to get one for 3 /4 seconds then gets hit that is on him. When the play is a fairly quick play to the right and the DT is drilling the QB in the back as he is throwing, that is on the Oline..
It's obvious that it was on Jones too. Lombardi is spot on. He has to feel that the rush is coming and he does a poor job of it and again it showed.
As for LT-- there were many times he chopped and the QB didn't fumble. You can't just count the successes. Some QB's are good at protecting the ball. Jones isn't.
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In comment 15816796 halfback20 said:
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In comment 15816789 ajr2456 said:
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Years took 5 years to get there? That’s what the year has to do with it.
Jones aside, who took 5 years to get to above average QB play? I’ll even give you 15 years if you’d like.
He's been in multiple offenses mostly without his best players around him.
What QB could have been successful in the same situation? Very few if any IMO
Justin Herbert has been in a different offense every year going back to his junior year of college.
Excuses, excuses, excuses
But he throws to Ekeler, Mike Williams, Henry, and Allen.
I'm with you. We hear this a lot from the nutjobs comparing one player at a super level bs another than probably can never approach it, then slam him because he is not super. Dan Marino sucks because he is not Tom Brady.
1--- With that said, we're hearing now that this was all Barkley and what will happen next with Jones if he doesn't get that type of Barkley performance? -- Well now we see what a helluva RB can do, right?
2--- SO what might happen next? The opposing defense is going to go all-in to stop Barkley. SO what might happen? A WR on the Giants might the big time FA, the 1st round pick Toney and/or the 2nd round pick Robinson might actually do something. Then what we'll we hear? Ahh that opposing defense sucked. Wait until they go against a better secondary defense. The Giants can't expect that kind of performance next week form the WR's so who will bail out Jones then?
3-- Then what next? The OL steady improvement and if they win with a balanced attack then the praise will go to the new and improved OL. But then what will the Jones blasters say? OH that teams defense and coach did a poor job, so you can't expecting every game with the OL, so just wait until they face a real defense. Then what happens next?
4--- The Giants may have an actual coach and a smart GM - unlike the last several years when they ran out H/S coaching staff and overwhelmed GM's, now we'll see the Giants make some clever adjustments and when they win that game, Ahh Jones was lucky that our coach is so good. What's going to happen when he goes against one of the top 2 coaches in the NFL? . . .
I’m summary - we haven't seen what an RB can do in this manner in so long because we've been so pathetic. And for those who say it's only about the QB- they look pretty foolish, didn’t they? We haven't seen what a WR or TE can do because we haven’t had one. They’ve been mostly hurt. And we haven't seen how a real OL can perform because we’ve been at the bottom for several years. And we haven’t seen how a real coach can perform because we've had to deal with H/S caliber head coaches that are better as assistants only. And we may actually have a GM which many good teams have too instead of the overwhelmed GM's we've had in the last several years.
Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning would not have "felt" that pressure (because it was immediate) and would have fumbled (because of the way the DT hit him).
I get it. Some of you guys want to slam Daniel Jones for everything.
But you're looking darn corrupt when you pick that play to be your ammo.
Use the interception. The fumble? You're exposing your own agenda.
Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning would not have "felt" that pressure (because it was immediate) and would have fumbled (because of the way the DT hit him).
This is patently false. Plenty of QBs feel that pressure in that situation. Do they every time? Of course not. The problem is we rarely see Jones feel the pressure
Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning would not have "felt" that pressure (because it was immediate) and would have fumbled (because of the way the DT hit him).
I get it. Some of you guys want to slam Daniel Jones for everything.
But you're looking darn corrupt when you pick that play to be your ammo.
Use the interception. The fumble? You're exposing your own agenda.
It's not an agenda. It's an opinion.
It's not just about the hit and the suddenness. granted it's a tough play for DJ. But this is a problem he consistently has. He either can't, or refuses, to acknowledge he won't have a clean pocket. You mean an unheralded rookie couldn't handle a Pro Bowl DT in his first game? Shocking.
He drops back like he has forever. Like he's never seen pressure before. He gets into a slow windup. No consideration for what is happening around him. And we see this over and over. Sure the INT was worse. But every time the ball hits the ground, it's always at least partially the QBs fault. DJ plays a slow, unintelligent game. And it's long past time to stop saying things aren't on him. The whole game is on him.
We had one of those on Sunday. And people want to piss and moan about a blindside hit that caused a fumble.
There'd be more honor in for them to just root for the team to completely implode this season, and force the Giants to replace Jones. Instead, these "fans" would prefer to ostensibly root for the team to succeed, and trust that they're clever enough to successfully gaslight the rest of us about what we're actually watching. While they jerk it to Anthony Richardson highlight reels on Youtube.
But you can't hold our QB responsible for the poor inconsistent play of a few flawed players on the offensive roster. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole NYG franchise including the coaches and front office personnel. And if the whole NY Giant franchise system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of the entire National Football League in general? I put it to you all - isn't this then really an indictment of our entire American society?
Well...you can do whatever you want to Daniel Jones, but I for one am not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
Good evening...
Here.. here...
We had one of those on Sunday. And people want to piss and moan about a blindside hit that caused a fumble.
There'd be more honor in for them to just root for the team to completely implode this season, and force the Giants to replace Jones. Instead, these "fans" would prefer to ostensibly root for the team to succeed, and trust that they're clever enough to successfully gaslight the rest of us about what we're actually watching. While they jerk it to Anthony Richardson highlight reels on Youtube.
He lacks awareness. He seems to be in that position a lot, Maybe he can, yknow, do something different, since it keeps happening. Standing back there like he's Bambi, thinking there's no hunters in the forest, ain't helping matters.
Running game, OL PB capability, WR/skill group talent. Need 2/3. Sunday they had 1/3. If they add that second variable Jones will benefit. Will it be enough? TBD and where he is in is contract they need to be high standards imv.
Regardless of whose QB'ing the Giants need to continue to improve all 3.
It seems like every other game Jones gets demolished and gives up the ball.
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Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning would not have "felt" that pressure (because it was immediate) and would have fumbled (because of the way the DT hit him).
This is patently false. Plenty of QBs feel that pressure in that situation. Do they every time? Of course not. The problem is we rarely see Jones feel the pressure
+1.
IMO Giants fans are so used to Jones fumble issues that they expect it. I'm pretty stunned that there is a point to not blame him at some level. No way am I saying he is 100% to blame. But it's on him as well as the blocker.
You mean after he secures the ball in his hands at the snap he has a window of time that he as a professional player that he is - he is not responsible to maintain security of the ball?
To me that is outrageous.
You only post about one thing.
It's tedious.
You're another one with an agenda.
According to you, Jones has never gotten rid of the ball when under pressure.
His whole career here has been throwing the ball under pressure.
What you are claiming is demonstrably false.
Does he have good pocket awareness? No.
But he your claim that he never throws the ball when under pressure is just a stupid post.
Heh? - ( New Window )
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Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning would not have "felt" that pressure (because it was immediate) and would have fumbled (because of the way the DT hit him).
This is patently false. Plenty of QBs feel that pressure in that situation. Do they every time? Of course not. The problem is we rarely see Jones feel the pressure
How do quarterbacks feel pressure? Eyes in the back of their head? Like Spiderman?
Running game, OL PB capability, WR/skill group talent. Need 2/3. Sunday they had 1/3. If they add that second variable Jones will benefit. Will it be enough? TBD and where he is in is contract they need to be high standards imv.
Regardless of whose QB'ing the Giants need to continue to improve all 3.
No one ever discounts those variables. But it's 2022. Not 2002. Not 1992. Not 1982. Not 1972.
And in 2022 the weight of significance for each of those variables has changed significantly. Now QB is unquestionably the most critical position to success and carries the more weight than any of the other variables by 2x.
That's why so many of us feel giving a QB 4+ years to prove they are - perhaps - the solution is as ancient as AM radio.
Every QB has some good plays, bad plays, and some in between. Its about how many of each.
Does anybody actually think Jones is a top 10 QB? That is what you need. Do even his biggest fans try to make the case that he's really good? Even the most blinded, Jones obsessed fan boys don't try to make that case. Because its a completely absurd position.
You want to stake out a position that he's the 18th best QB? Ok, i think he's worse, but I'll listen to that. And I'm happy to let the 18th best QB walk because that's not the way to win. Top 10 QB? Try to make that case.
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Was on Eli’s pass to Tyree in the Super Bowl. That pocket collapsed from all directions within a second.
You're another one with an agenda.
According to you, Jones has never gotten rid of the ball when under pressure.
His whole career here has been throwing the ball under pressure.
What you are claiming is demonstrably false.
Does he have good pocket awareness? No.
But he your claim that he never throws the ball when under pressure is just a stupid post.
I don’t have an agenda, I’m saying what I see on the field. Please point to where I said he never gets rid of the ball under pressure. I’ve said he doesn’t do it enough. Don’t put words in my mouth
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The QB gurus don't understand the variables of offensive football and how they relate to QB production. OL has been a issue for over a decade. Same as the running game. WR/TE skill had some brief moments (2011 was a upper tier group). OBJ was a huge bump but it was for just a couple years.
Running game, OL PB capability, WR/skill group talent. Need 2/3. Sunday they had 1/3. If they add that second variable Jones will benefit. Will it be enough? TBD and where he is in is contract they need to be high standards imv.
Regardless of whose QB'ing the Giants need to continue to improve all 3.
No one ever discounts those variables. But it's 2022. Not 2002. Not 1992. Not 1982. Not 1972.
And in 2022 the weight of significance for each of those variables has changed significantly. Now QB is unquestionably the most critical position to success and carries the more weight than any of the other variables by 2x.
That's why so many of us feel giving a QB 4+ years to prove they are - perhaps - the solution is as ancient as AM radio.
Any of those decades it's still 2/3. What has changed for some teams is the approach in team building and emphasis.
1. Strong running game to achieve favorable down/distance. Less reliance on having a elite skill group but you still need a good one and ideally one upper tier option.
2. Less running game you better have a upper/tier elite level skill guys to compensate. These teams tend to falter to elite fronts.
QB play is a factor always. Pass protection can vary for some QB's but you need a baseline of adequate as a baseline.
Dance all you want with modernization you are not getting far in this game without one or two of the above scenarios.
Ideally you want balance in all three. Playoffs tend to expose a lot of flaws. Strong run team that does not have the QB and enough skill guys gets exposed when that run game gets stomped. Team built pass first often gets sent home with a elite front.
There is a reason "balance" is important.
He’s a smart young man and a good young man. The kind you’d want to date your daughter. Whether he can overcome the processing issue and become the QB who can take you to the last game is questionable
What I find frustrating about the whole analysis is that I really don't believe its the way teams, coaches actually think. In the end, whether Jones stays or goes will likely come down to whether Daboll/Kalfka are comfortable with him running the offense. And the question they will be asking themselves what can he do, not so much what he can't do. And if I had to bet right now I would say the odds are that Jones ultimately stays. The other part of that equation is that given that the Giants are 11-12 in Jones' last 23 starts, that in all likelihood given the schedule that, barring an injury or some such the Giants could very well win 9-10 games meaning that they could very well be picking in the late teens. And unless they are willing to trade the house to move up into the top ten the likelihood that they'll be 'getting' their QB ain't that high.
The thing that DOES concern me right now is that it isn't clear that the Giants have any receivers that they can really count on. I mean there's still potential in guys like Toney and Golladay but its only potential. And I know it won't be popular opinion, but if I'm Joe Schoen I'm a buyer not a seller and I'm scouring the league looking for some major upgrade at receiver. I look at the offense and wonder just how good it could be with an elite receiver. I can dream can't I.
They want to move on because he hasn’t been healthy and hasn’t played like the Saqoun we saw on Sunday.
Last year, the top ten teams in YPA made the playoffs. Nine of the top ten in passing yards/game made the playoffs (Chargers were the lone team that didn't make it). Of the top ten teams in passing attempts, eight made the playoffs. And of the top ten teams in PPG, seven of them were in the top ten in passing yards per game.
Of the top ten teams in rushing attempts, only half made the playoffs - Philly (from the horrible NFCE), Titans, 9ers, Cards and Pats.
I think the WR is a huge issue. At least right now.
Your point about winning 9/10 games is spot on and how it impacts moving on from Jones if he plays well enough but you still have concerns. The draft offers no guarantees and you still have to win. How JS attacks that will be interesting.
If the Giants and Jones stink bring me Bryce Young.
Stupid pick but besides the pick he had a solid day.
If potential elite talent is there in Rd 1 then fine drafting a WR early. Just make sure you do your evals and to ensure he doesn't have a 2-cent head (like you know who).
But next year is really about finding a QB first if we can whenever we pick (or moving up if worth it). Adding to or replacing WR & TE talent second, and investing in a CB and hopefully a real Center if able.
imv...
Last year, the top ten teams in YPA made the playoffs. Nine of the top ten in passing yards/game made the playoffs (Chargers were the lone team that didn't make it). Of the top ten teams in passing attempts, eight made the playoffs. And of the top ten teams in PPG, seven of them were in the top ten in passing yards per game.
Of the top ten teams in rushing attempts, only half made the playoffs - Philly (from the horrible NFCE), Titans, 9ers, Cards and Pats.
The problem is you take the word "balance" too literal. And secondly, because you think football is QB only, you're basically a non-existent fan until the Giants get a super QB.
SO when the 49ers in 2019 got to Suer Bowl, and their offense built on the run, you wouldn't give a shit if you were a niner fan. A titans fan losing in AFC Championship, if you were a fan you wouldn't give a shit because they were "21st in passing yard."
I was pumped after watching Giants win this past week. I wonder if you were just miserable because you know it's possibly one win closer for the Giants keeping a mediocre QB so you can't enjoy it.
Can you and Maryland Blows be any easier to undress?
You have always been the same, just a chucklehead...
Last year, the top ten teams in YPA made the playoffs. Nine of the top ten in passing yards/game made the playoffs (Chargers were the lone team that didn't make it). Of the top ten teams in passing attempts, eight made the playoffs. And of the top ten teams in PPG, seven of them were in the top ten in passing yards per game.
Of the top ten teams in rushing attempts, only half made the playoffs - Philly (from the horrible NFCE), Titans, 9ers, Cards and Pats.
I never said you don't have to pass the ball.
I like teams that win SB's. I like teams that build to win a SB. Good luck getting a lucky draw if your one dimensional or meet a physical team. Cincy sure didn't light it up in the SB in the passing game. Defense did its job.
But you get your tools QB and good luck with the molding of the mind in your air strike offense. I'll take a good enough tools and one already showing strong processing skills who has shown can make decisions under pressure. Give him a running game and I'll like his chances with a strong D.
The problem is you take the word "balance" too literal. And secondly, because you think football is QB only, you're basically a non-existent fan until the Giants get a super QB.
SO when the 49ers in 2019 got to Suer Bowl, and their offense built on the run, you wouldn't give a shit if you were a niner fan. A titans fan losing in AFC Championship, if you were a fan you wouldn't give a shit because they were "21st in passing yard."
I was pumped after watching Giants win this past week. I wonder if you were just miserable because you know it's possibly one win closer for the Giants keeping a mediocre QB so you can't enjoy it.
Uh, no. I just understand and accept the progression of the modern game.
I was very young, but I grew up with the Giants in the '80s and early '90s. And they were a power running team. I absolutely loved that approach and wish it was a winning recipe today. In fact, I enjoy watching the Shanahan running approach in San Francisco.
But that's just not a sustainable winning formula/approach today. If it was, don't you think more teams would be trying to build it?
What I find frustrating about the whole analysis is that I really don't believe its the way teams, coaches actually think. In the end, whether Jones stays or goes will likely come down to whether Daboll/Kalfka are comfortable with him running the offense. And the question they will be asking themselves what can he do, not so much what he can't do. And if I had to bet right now I would say the odds are that Jones ultimately stays. The other part of that equation is that given that the Giants are 11-12 in Jones' last 23 starts, that in all likelihood given the schedule that, barring an injury or some such the Giants could very well win 9-10 games meaning that they could very well be picking in the late teens. And unless they are willing to trade the house to move up into the top ten the likelihood that they'll be 'getting' their QB ain't that high.
The thing that DOES concern me right now is that it isn't clear that the Giants have any receivers that they can really count on. I mean there's still potential in guys like Toney and Golladay but its only potential. And I know it won't be popular opinion, but if I'm Joe Schoen I'm a buyer not a seller and I'm scouring the league looking for some major upgrade at receiver. I look at the offense and wonder just how good it could be with an elite receiver. I can dream can't I.
I recently wrote a post on this thread sort of mocking or maybe that’s too harsh but just not agreeing with the slamming of Jones.
But on the flipside he did play a mediocre game. And it's because as you said - he wasn’t relied upon/ planed upon to do a lot. So when that happens and you commit two turnovers that's not good if your offense is that of being conservative.
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The problem is you take the word "balance" too literal. And secondly, because you think football is QB only, you're basically a non-existent fan until the Giants get a super QB.
SO when the 49ers in 2019 got to Suer Bowl, and their offense built on the run, you wouldn't give a shit if you were a niner fan. A titans fan losing in AFC Championship, if you were a fan you wouldn't give a shit because they were "21st in passing yard."
I was pumped after watching Giants win this past week. I wonder if you were just miserable because you know it's possibly one win closer for the Giants keeping a mediocre QB so you can't enjoy it.
Uh, no. I just understand and accept the progression of the modern game.
I was very young, but I grew up with the Giants in the '80s and early '90s. And they were a power running team. I absolutely loved that approach and wish it was a winning recipe today. In fact, I enjoy watching the Shanahan running approach in San Francisco.
But that's just not a sustainable winning formula/approach today. If it was, don't you think more teams would be trying to build it?
Other than New England which team has sustained Super Bowl winning success?
****And what do you do as a fan if your team doesn't have that super QB? You are just going to bitch and complain all year? And then you see the team win playoff games but there you are watching and waiting for that next loss?
I just have to say - my bark hear gets louder than it actually is so I don’t mean some of the stuff I say if it sounds personal. And I'm sure you are a super guy as is others who I argue a lot with Producer and Go Terps etc. But last year as na example when you asked me what do I see / think when I watch the game and I asked back at you
You were just zoned in on the QB. As a fan of the 80's and 90';s as you are- I'm just still stunned how you could not give one shit about how bad that game Dallas just abused us running the ball down our throats.
SO to follow that thought as I am watching the game on that day - I could be doing other things - but watching and seeing my team get the living shit beat out of it from a physical standpoint - do you really think I should give a shit about sustainment on that given day?
And to follow up on that-- if my team is that shitty on defense, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there is a good chance that my team is going to eventually run into a team like the Niners or Titans?
SO watching my team go down in flames vs a power run strong defensive team, you think I should give a shit knowing that San Fran and Tennessee can’t sustain what they are doing?
Don’t you see? The next year there could be another San Fran or Tennessee in the way for a couple of years?
year.
And meanwhile, we have some loopy dudes who think we have an agenda. Yea, the agenda is to tell people Daniel Jones is still woeful.
But please...stop with theories that Jones/Giants would work out fine if we just ran more often like in the days of Phil Simms.
I beg of you...
While I'm on board with the fumble also being on Jones (and the OL) - this post you made here truly shows what kind of nutjob you can be.
Good work. This post certainly sets you apart and puts you on the super elite tier of laughable and hysterical posters.
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He basically needs to start playing like Mahomes, Rodgers and Herbert to impress us.
While I'm on board with the fumble also being on Jones (and the OL) - this post you made here truly shows what kind of nutjob you can be.
Good work. This post certainly sets you apart and puts you on the super elite tier of laughable and hysterical posters.
Why? Because I have acknowledged that teams with elite QBs are at a significant competitive advantage over the rest of the league? Why wouldn't you want that for the Giants? This is the surest route to long term contention. Andy Reid knows it. Shanahan knows it. Sean McVay knows it. It's simple game theory. Football is a game as well as a sport. Sorry I said something obvious out loud.
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In comment 15817270 Producer said:
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He basically needs to start playing like Mahomes, Rodgers and Herbert to impress us.
While I'm on board with the fumble also being on Jones (and the OL) - this post you made here truly shows what kind of nutjob you can be.
Good work. This post certainly sets you apart and puts you on the super elite tier of laughable and hysterical posters.
Why? Because I have acknowledged that teams with elite QBs are at a significant competitive advantage over the rest of the league? Why wouldn't you want that for the Giants? This is the surest route to long term contention. Andy Reid knows it. Shanahan knows it. Sean McVay knows it. It's simple game theory. Football is a game as well as a sport. Sorry I said something obvious out loud.
You realize this past year a QB won the Super Bowl that you didn;t mention. Nor did you mention the guy that beat Mahomes twice last year and got to the Super Bowl in Burrow.
Who the hell are you to arbitrarily take three QB's and leave off the rest? DO you have any idea how hard it is to play and succeed winning SUper bowls and getting there?
SO a QB that wins the Super Bowl you're not supposed to be proud because you as an anonymous fan have made up in your silly mind about long-term success and yet you are trying to quote Coaches that would support your mindless idiotic view that winning a SUper Bowl is no big deal to be proud of if you can't be there the following few years?
I mean just WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nm
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In comment 15817270 Producer said:
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He basically needs to start playing like Mahomes, Rodgers and Herbert to impress us.
While I'm on board with the fumble also being on Jones (and the OL) - this post you made here truly shows what kind of nutjob you can be.
Good work. This post certainly sets you apart and puts you on the super elite tier of laughable and hysterical posters.
Why? Because I have acknowledged that teams with elite QBs are at a significant competitive advantage over the rest of the league? Why wouldn't you want that for the Giants? This is the surest route to long term contention. Andy Reid knows it. Shanahan knows it. Sean McVay knows it. It's simple game theory. Football is a game as well as a sport. Sorry I said something obvious out loud.
You’re on a Giants message board incessantly spouting this agenda for what? Trying to convert an entire fanbase (this gen) who’s football foundation is built on winning championships with second tier QBs vs the elite HOF QBs you fawn over?
It’s all this generation knows. Simms and Hos vs Elway and Kelly. Eli vs Brady.
Jones will never “be” those players. Can the Giants with Jones beat those players in a big game?
Some on here want to keep throwing everything we have in to get a top 10 or top 5 QB and basically don't start the rebuild until then. Nothing matters until you have a top 10 QB, but these do not grow on trees and you have to kiss a lot of frogs to get a prince (or blow a couple of 1st rd choices on bums like Darnold).
Other want to take the Titans approach (for lack of a better example), and build a solid defense and running game around him. There have been numerous teams that have also succeeded this way.
No one things Jones is Mahomes here. However he isn't the worst QB in the league either, and these threads that over analyze each move and always place the blame on him are old and do point to an agenda. He played well last game, the Int was terrible and could have cost them the game, but outside of that he hit some big passes and helped the team. 17-21 with 2 TD passes isn't bad, its good. Full stop.
Lets keep winning. What to do about the QB position will probably be linked to where we are in the draft anyway.
The margin of error using the Titans model is razor thin. And the main issue is we don’t even know if Jones can be a Tannehill level QB. The Giants have options, they can draft one or maybe a QB like Lamar hits the FA/trade market.
I agree that any given year Tannehill is somewhere between 12 and 16. In a big Tanny year maybe he sneaks to 10/11/12. But we all agree his upside any given year is capped. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Titans are not content with Tannehill's upside. After all, they added Willis. They are looking for a better solution at QB.
And add to this picture that it is not at all clear that Jones can, or ever will, perform at Tannehill's level. I think that's the reason for the impatience. Why is Willis, as an example, a good gamble for the Titans, and not for us? Especially if Jones' upside is Tannehill maybe.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I agree that any given year Tannehill is somewhere between 12 and 16. In a big Tanny year maybe he sneaks to 10/11/12. But we all agree his upside any given year is capped. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Titans are not content with Tannehill's upside. After all, they added Willis. They are looking for a better solution at QB.
And add to this picture that it is not at all clear that Jones can, or ever will, perform at Tannehill's level. I think that's the reason for the impatience. Why is Willis, as an example, a good gamble for the Titans, and not for us? Especially if Jones' upside is Tannehill maybe.
Its my opinion that this year Jones will play at a Tannehill (~16th in the league) level, and I've seen others in the media think this. I think this is his cap/range, and remember Tannehill wasn't Tannehill immediately either. I'm also not saying the Titans have the right/wrong model either. I'm just trying to be balanced here that there is a model that isn't always "sell out for a top 5 QB every year". Not sure what you think about Stafford, but he is definitely more talented than Jones, however that never worked for the Lions because they couldn't build enough around him. So there are no sure fire methods.
As for a QB in Rd 3, I was all for it. I might have picked Howell not Willis, but same point. I think the Titans did it because the value was there in Rd 3. Now if we are talking about Rd 1 the pick better be correct or you're screwed, but in Rd 3 there is a lot less pressure on it. Maybe we didn't do it because its a new staff who didn't want to rock the boat right away, or maybe they liked next years guys better, who knows.
If we have a good year and Jones lands in the mid range QB area, which I would expect, then our draft pick is lower. At that point Schoen needs to decide does he sell everything to move up an grab the next Allen, or does he sign Jones to a lesser contract (no one is talking $40M), keep Saquon, and continue to build. It we end up picking in the top 10 again, then the decision got a lot easier IMO.
The ranking is less important as variables can impact that drastically either way but this may very be the big problem that Schoen has to solve; level of commitment.
If Jones plays well (with concerns) and they win 8-10 games what the plan will be in the offseason. That problem can be easy or become incredibly difficult to solve. In the end we may stick with him and strike somewhere down the road when feasible. Then make the team around him better.
As far as Barkley goes, the conversation this week has turned into the same one people use to mock anyone who points out that the Yankees score most of their runs with HRs. They spin that truth into "you say the Yankee hit too many HRs". Which is ridiculous and disingenuous. No Giant fan wants a 4 yard run instead of a 40 year run. What most Giant fans want is a 4 yard gain instead of a 2 yard loss trying for a 40 yard run when it's not there.
If Saquon Barkley runs with the same power and physicality for 16 more games that he did in this past one all Giant fans will be thrilled. We've never seen that version of him before even when he was a rookie.
That is a fantastic way to sum up SB with the 4 yards and a cloud of dust mentality some said on this post. Not having negative runs or many 0/1 yards this past Sunday had a huge impact.
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That if the olineman even just slows down his man, Jones can make that throw to Bellinger, even after looking downfield.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I'm honestly curious about this statement. Is this something that is commonly known?
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
People who get upset at people criticizing the Giants love to make arguments that aren’t being made.
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I agree that any given year Tannehill is somewhere between 12 and 16. In a big Tanny year maybe he sneaks to 10/11/12. But we all agree his upside any given year is capped. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Titans are not content with Tannehill's upside. After all, they added Willis. They are looking for a better solution at QB.
And add to this picture that it is not at all clear that Jones can, or ever will, perform at Tannehill's level. I think that's the reason for the impatience. Why is Willis, as an example, a good gamble for the Titans, and not for us? Especially if Jones' upside is Tannehill maybe.
Its my opinion that this year Jones will play at a Tannehill (~16th in the league) level, and I've seen others in the media think this. I think this is his cap/range, and remember Tannehill wasn't Tannehill immediately either. I'm also not saying the Titans have the right/wrong model either. I'm just trying to be balanced here that there is a model that isn't always "sell out for a top 5 QB every year". Not sure what you think about Stafford, but he is definitely more talented than Jones, however that never worked for the Lions because they couldn't build enough around him. So there are no sure fire methods.
As for a QB in Rd 3, I was all for it. I might have picked Howell not Willis, but same point. I think the Titans did it because the value was there in Rd 3. Now if we are talking about Rd 1 the pick better be correct or you're screwed, but in Rd 3 there is a lot less pressure on it. Maybe we didn't do it because its a new staff who didn't want to rock the boat right away, or maybe they liked next years guys better, who knows.
If we have a good year and Jones lands in the mid range QB area, which I would expect, then our draft pick is lower. At that point Schoen needs to decide does he sell everything to move up an grab the next Allen, or does he sign Jones to a lesser contract (no one is talking $40M), keep Saquon, and continue to build. It we end up picking in the top 10 again, then the decision got a lot easier IMO.
I generally agree with everything you say here and how you frame it. With the exception that I would not expect Jones to reach Tanny level, though he certainly could. I don't see why we would expect/project that from him. His turnovers are always high and most QBs with his problems don't fix them. He is much more likely on the Trubisky/Bortles trajectory than Tannehill. But again, it's possible he makes the level jump, though yet again, is that enough upside to invest multiple seasons in, and I would say no.
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In comment 15817462 Blue92 said:
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That if the olineman even just slows down his man, Jones can make that throw to Bellinger, even after looking downfield.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I'm honestly curious about this statement. Is this something that is commonly known?
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
The average time to throw from the snap is around 2.7 seconds last year. That’s .7 seconds longer than Jones had before he was hit on the fumble.
It's possible to believe both things because the game has changed. RBs just aren't worth high picks anymore, and they're not worth massive contracts. They get hurt. They have short careers. And you can often get nearly the same production from a committee of much cheaper backs.
Did your heated debate on this thread go too far?
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In comment 15817462 Blue92 said:
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That if the olineman even just slows down his man, Jones can make that throw to Bellinger, even after looking downfield.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I'm honestly curious about this statement. Is this something that is commonly known?
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
No because it isn't true. Further, on th eplay, Jones was going to his second read adn was just about to throw to a wide open receiver for a chunk play. Of course, we are presuming that this was his second read. No one here knows whether Bellinger was the first read becaiuse none of us know the Giants playbook. But some people like to sit back and exclaim with 100 percent assurity that a particular play was a checkdown, etc. The failure of some fans to fail to acknowledge what they don't know but make concrete conclusions based on their assumptions is aggravating.
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In comment 15817473 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15817462 Blue92 said:
Quote:
That if the olineman even just slows down his man, Jones can make that throw to Bellinger, even after looking downfield.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I'm honestly curious about this statement. Is this something that is commonly known?
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
No because it isn't true. Further, on th eplay, Jones was going to his second read adn was just about to throw to a wide open receiver for a chunk play. Of course, we are presuming that this was his second read. No one here knows whether Bellinger was the first read becaiuse none of us know the Giants playbook. But some people like to sit back and exclaim with 100 percent assurity that a particular play was a checkdown, etc. The failure of some fans to fail to acknowledge what they don't know but make concrete conclusions based on their assumptions is aggravating.
What does any of this have to do with the discussion at hand? The discussion was how often QBs get to go a third read.
Did your heated debate on this thread go too far?
Guess being wrong got to him, otherwise couldn’t tell you
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In comment 15817430 Producer said:
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I agree that any given year Tannehill is somewhere between 12 and 16. In a big Tanny year maybe he sneaks to 10/11/12. But we all agree his upside any given year is capped. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Titans are not content with Tannehill's upside. After all, they added Willis. They are looking for a better solution at QB.
And add to this picture that it is not at all clear that Jones can, or ever will, perform at Tannehill's level. I think that's the reason for the impatience. Why is Willis, as an example, a good gamble for the Titans, and not for us? Especially if Jones' upside is Tannehill maybe.
Its my opinion that this year Jones will play at a Tannehill (~16th in the league) level, and I've seen others in the media think this. I think this is his cap/range, and remember Tannehill wasn't Tannehill immediately either. I'm also not saying the Titans have the right/wrong model either. I'm just trying to be balanced here that there is a model that isn't always "sell out for a top 5 QB every year". Not sure what you think about Stafford, but he is definitely more talented than Jones, however that never worked for the Lions because they couldn't build enough around him. So there are no sure fire methods.
As for a QB in Rd 3, I was all for it. I might have picked Howell not Willis, but same point. I think the Titans did it because the value was there in Rd 3. Now if we are talking about Rd 1 the pick better be correct or you're screwed, but in Rd 3 there is a lot less pressure on it. Maybe we didn't do it because its a new staff who didn't want to rock the boat right away, or maybe they liked next years guys better, who knows.
If we have a good year and Jones lands in the mid range QB area, which I would expect, then our draft pick is lower. At that point Schoen needs to decide does he sell everything to move up an grab the next Allen, or does he sign Jones to a lesser contract (no one is talking $40M), keep Saquon, and continue to build. It we end up picking in the top 10 again, then the decision got a lot easier IMO.
I generally agree with everything you say here and how you frame it. With the exception that I would not expect Jones to reach Tanny level, though he certainly could. I don't see why we would expect/project that from him. His turnovers are always high and most QBs with his problems don't fix them. He is much more likely on the Trubisky/Bortles trajectory than Tannehill. But again, it's possible he makes the level jump, though yet again, is that enough upside to invest multiple seasons in, and I would say no.
LOL - if all he gets to this year is Bortles then the answer is easy. IMO though that first game was very Tannehill-esque. We will see.
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In comment 15817504 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 15817473 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15817462 Blue92 said:
Quote:
That if the olineman even just slows down his man, Jones can make that throw to Bellinger, even after looking downfield.
No matter the QB or the oline; you’re not getting time make 3 reads on most plays.
I'm honestly curious about this statement. Is this something that is commonly known?
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
No because it isn't true. Further, on th eplay, Jones was going to his second read adn was just about to throw to a wide open receiver for a chunk play. Of course, we are presuming that this was his second read. No one here knows whether Bellinger was the first read becaiuse none of us know the Giants playbook. But some people like to sit back and exclaim with 100 percent assurity that a particular play was a checkdown, etc. The failure of some fans to fail to acknowledge what they don't know but make concrete conclusions based on their assumptions is aggravating.
What does any of this have to do with the discussion at hand? The discussion was how often QBs get to go a third read.
My first sentence responded to that. To say QBs do not get to third reads is wrong
Here's my POV (and it comes with all the biases inherent in my own opinion on Jones - I acknowledge that): what seems like an agenda to constantly blame DJ is, in some part, a result of the DJFC never wanting to place ANY responsibility for DJ's struggles on DJ himself. There's ALWAYS an excuse. There's ALWAYS some other reason. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault.
So a vacuum of critical discourse is created, and those who are looking at things that DJ still needs to improve are the only ones voicing those opinions, which are then met by the same tired excuses, and then the response to those excuses pushes the conversation into the same place it always ends up: completely divided with the appearance that there is one set of posters who think DJ can do no wrong, and a separate group who think DJ can do no right.
Neither one of those is accurate, of course. DJ's critics are still rooting for the Giants to win, but many are concerned about the cap ramifications of DJ's next contract. That's different than rooting against DJ; it's more accurately described (IMO) as wanting to make sure that a roster that hasn't been able to win with an inexpensive DJ will be able to somehow win with a more expensive DJ.
Meanwhile, DJ's supporters seem obsessed with having their faith in him rewarded, and want badly to credit his play for any improvements that the Giants make. This, to me, seems logically inconsistent: if DJ is merely along for the ride when the team struggles, he's also just along for the ride when they succeed. After all, if his play alone has that much impact on the outcome of a game, then he deserves more blame than this group ever gives him (read: none) when the Giants lose. But that's not what happens.
So this dynamic ends up in a place where the optics are such that one might reasonably conclude that one group of BBI posters only gives DJ credit and never gives him any blame, and another group of BBI posters only give DJ blame but never any credit. And neither side ever takes any responsibility for pushing the conversation into polarity, but always blames the other side for doing it.
Sure they get their third read, they don’t get to their third read on a majority of plays in the current NFL.
If we have a good year and Jones lands in the mid range QB area, which I would expect, then our draft pick is lower. At that point Schoen needs to decide does he sell everything to move up an grab the next Allen, or does he sign Jones to a lesser contract (no one is talking $40M), keep Saquon, and continue to build. It we end up picking in the top 10 again, then the decision got a lot easier IMO.
PP - I would submit that if Schoen goes the way of keeping both Jones & Saquon then he had better be relying on more missed FGs at the end of games by the opposition...
The margin of error using the Titans model is razor thin. And the main issue is we don’t even know if Jones can be a Tannehill level QB. The Giants have options, they can draft one or maybe a QB like Lamar hits the FA/trade market.
+1. And please note that Jones needs to improve a fair amount to get to the Tannehill threshold and unlike others here I’m not at all convinced he can bridge that gap. Jones is now on year 8 of advanced coaching. I think he is what he is.
The dolphins wasted 7 seasons waiting for Ryan Tannehill.
The dolphins wasted 7 seasons waiting for Ryan Tannehill.
And the Titans may have cost themselves a rare shot at playing in a super bowl because they didn’t have someone better.
I can’t lie to yalll it feeel good to see
@saquon
get to do what he does… one of the best to ever put on cleats, seen it wit my own eyes no capppp… Don’t @ me