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Kafta's play calling

JOrthman : 9/19/2022 8:46 am
I've read a few threads where people have been very skeptical of the play calling which has caught me off guard. I think the play calling has been light years ahead of previous seasons. In the past my very amateur eyes could have played defensive coordinator for the opposition we were so predictable. This year even the camera man has had problems following the action at times.
people  
TommyWiseau : 9/19/2022 8:46 am : link
also need to remember, it is his second game he has play called. He will improve
________  
I am Ninja : 9/19/2022 8:49 am : link
Fans want perfect play calling and game management.

I assume in real time it's REALLY hard.

It's remarkably easy at the keyboard though.
The play calling on the 1st  
section125 : 9/19/2022 8:49 am : link
2 series after the turnovers was atrocious. I am one that thinks he has been marginal, but he gets better after adjustments at halftime.
I also understand this is his 1st year calling plays. He will grow with the team. I think his inexperience making the calls is showing early in the games.
He's got a lot to overcome  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/19/2022 8:50 am : link
very few real weapons -- and an offensive line that has two holes in it (center and LG)
What’s the basis for criticism?  
cosmicj : 9/19/2022 8:50 am : link
Or praise for that matter. There’s a long standing pattern of detailed arguments about individual play calling on BBI looking at whether the call was bad or not. The debates often turn into a draw as the participants realize they don’t know enough about individual assignments to have an opinion.

Humility, guys, humility.
Kafta/Daboll - botched the clock killing at the end  
ZogZerg : 9/19/2022 8:50 am : link
Should have just kneeled it instead of handing off to Barkley.

No biggie as long as no fumble, but added risk to the end of the game. Hopefully they will have more opportunity to call those plays;)
The only complaint is both games, in the first half,  
robbieballs2003 : 9/19/2022 8:54 am : link
he's very pass heavy. Our OL is struggling with pass blocking. Defenses are not respecting our run game because DL are flying off the ball and penetrating. Imo, I'd like to see more of a commitment to the run early on to help neutralize the pass rush as much as possible.
I think the play calling has been fine  
ajr2456 : 9/19/2022 8:55 am : link
They just lack talent on the offensive side of the ball. Offensive play calling is like 10th on our list of issues on offense
RE: What’s the basis for criticism?  
JOrthman : 9/19/2022 8:57 am : link
In comment 15822862 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Or praise for that matter. There’s a long standing pattern of detailed arguments about individual play calling on BBI looking at whether the call was bad or not. The debates often turn into a draw as the participants realize they don’t know enough about individual assignments to have an opinion.

Humility, guys, humility.


For me predictability...In my opinion they've been predictable for years. Despite the lack of talent, most games they've kept the defense on their toes, despite not having much talent.
RE: people  
islander1 : 9/19/2022 8:57 am : link
In comment 15822854 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
also need to remember, it is his second game he has play called. He will improve


yeah, I think he's doing fine. Everyone's making mistakes. For a rookie playcaller I think he's doing well enough.

He's got a pedestrian QB to work with here...and our best two WRs are literally invisible.
I will say I think Feliciano is better  
jvm52106 : 9/19/2022 8:57 am : link
than he has shown so far and I think it is the leg injury from camp that is still hampering him some.
4 Games...  
bluewave : 9/19/2022 8:58 am : link
I said it would probably take 4-5 games before this offense starts clicking prior to the season starting. I'm sticking with that.

Daboll probably had the same idea in mind because he seems to be fine with the way things are going judging by the post-game press conferences.

Great thing is the rest of the team is making up for the lack of offense until they get going and we're 2-0!
RE: The only complaint is both games, in the first half,  
eli4life : 9/19/2022 9:01 am : link
In comment 15822875 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
he's very pass heavy. Our OL is struggling with pass blocking. Defenses are not respecting our run game because DL are flying off the ball and penetrating. Imo, I'd like to see more of a commitment to the run early on to help neutralize the pass rush as much as possible.


Almost like it’s on purpose to kinda loosen things up for Barkley. If that’s so then someone needs to send them a message if they actually hit a couple of those it might work quicker
The plays in general are much better....  
George from PA : 9/19/2022 9:02 am : link
They certainly wanted Barkley to lead the way vs Carolina....but they did a great job bottling him up.

Things moved better after a few nice downfield throws....the best drive was the one ending with Bellinger score.
I thought he got  
Gman11 : 9/19/2022 9:04 am : link
a little too cute when they got down inside the 10 after the second turnover. Barkley got them inside the 5. They should have given it to him again.

Otherwise, I think for the most part, the play calling is fine.
RE: The play calling on the 1st  
BigBlueShock : 9/19/2022 9:06 am : link
In comment 15822859 section125 said:
Quote:
2 series after the turnovers was atrocious. I am one that thinks he has been marginal, but he gets better after adjustments at halftime.
I also understand this is his 1st year calling plays. He will grow with the team. I think his inexperience making the calls is showing early in the games.

You’ve got to remember that the first 15 plays or so are scripted and there is a method to why they do that. The fact he gets better as the game goes on should be looked at as very encouraging
RE: He's got a lot to overcome  
Mike from Ohio : 9/19/2022 9:07 am : link
In comment 15822861 gidiefor said:
Quote:
very few real weapons -- and an offensive line that has two holes in it (center and LG)


And in pass protection, RT. We all know it is early in his career and he will probably be fine, but right now Neal's pass protection is not strong.
Very Kafkesque  
jeff57 : 9/19/2022 9:08 am : link
Eschewed the run nearly the whole game. Then when he went to the run, they put up the winning points.
Another thing I saw was when running to the right,  
robbieballs2003 : 9/19/2022 9:09 am : link
a handful of times the backside was not blocked up and the play was destroyed. I didn't rewatch to really focus on it but it was something I noticed. That LG spot seems to be a real problem right now.
I am pretty sure it's KAFKA., no T. In any event, I think  
Jimmy Googs : 9/19/2022 9:13 am : link
the play calling seems reasonable but the Offensive guys aren't getting it done well enough on field.

Those first two drives after the turnovers were excruciating not coming away with at least one TD. Two huge negative plays inside the 5 yard line...can't have it.

And I keep seeing Jones run play-action, or some deeper drops and he looks downfield but then he pulls the ball down and looks lost and gets sacked or falls ahead for 1-2 yards. The ball has to come out. Even get it to your outlet quicker.
Can't put it in harms way too often but give your guys some chances, force a PI or hold, throw a guy open....something. It feels like the ball doesn't come out unless Jones actually sees a guy open on his initial read.

And do you ever notice little the ball is actually thrown into the end zone itself? It's like we aren't allowed to use that part of the field to execute a play. Or maybe we are but it sure seems like we are scared to try.

2-0 but hopefully they get the offense moving a bit more.
They lack a downfield  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 9/19/2022 9:14 am : link
Threat so defenses are not scared to walk the safety up. Keep the Giants in 3rd and long and you got them!


RE: I will say I think Feliciano is better  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/19/2022 9:17 am : link
In comment 15822882 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
than he has shown so far and I think it is the leg injury from camp that is still hampering him some.


this was an unknown coming into the season -- but Feliciano is/was not a great player (based on his past stops) and this is his first stint at center. It may have been an overly optimistic assignment
RE: Kafta/Daboll - botched the clock killing at the end  
BillKo : 9/19/2022 9:21 am : link
In comment 15822863 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
Should have just kneeled it instead of handing off to Barkley.



I thought that too after Jones got the first - just kneel.

But if they did that, I believe they'd still maybe have to punt? At it seems NFL coaches would rather chance a line plunge to eat up a few more seconds rather than actually have to lineup in punt formation with very few seconds left?

Again not sure unless we crunch the numbers.
RE: I am pretty sure it's KAFKA., no T. In any event, I think  
JOrthman : 9/19/2022 9:28 am : link
In comment 15822915 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
the play calling seems reasonable but the Offensive guys aren't getting it done well enough on field.

Those first two drives after the turnovers were excruciating not coming away with at least one TD. Two huge negative plays inside the 5 yard line...can't have it.

And I keep seeing Jones run play-action, or some deeper drops and he looks downfield but then he pulls the ball down and looks lost and gets sacked or falls ahead for 1-2 yards. The ball has to come out. Even get it to your outlet quicker.
Can't put it in harms way too often but give your guys some chances, force a PI or hold, throw a guy open....something. It feels like the ball doesn't come out unless Jones actually sees a guy open on his initial read.

And do you ever notice little the ball is actually thrown into the end zone itself? It's like we aren't allowed to use that part of the field to execute a play. Or maybe we are but it sure seems like we are scared to try.

2-0 but hopefully they get the offense moving a bit more.


Typo, I didn't realize I did that.
RE: I am pretty sure it's KAFKA., no T. In any event, I think  
JOrthman : 9/19/2022 9:29 am : link
In comment 15822915 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
the play calling seems reasonable but the Offensive guys aren't getting it done well enough on field.

Those first two drives after the turnovers were excruciating not coming away with at least one TD. Two huge negative plays inside the 5 yard line...can't have it.

And I keep seeing Jones run play-action, or some deeper drops and he looks downfield but then he pulls the ball down and looks lost and gets sacked or falls ahead for 1-2 yards. The ball has to come out. Even get it to your outlet quicker.
Can't put it in harms way too often but give your guys some chances, force a PI or hold, throw a guy open....something. It feels like the ball doesn't come out unless Jones actually sees a guy open on his initial read.

And do you ever notice little the ball is actually thrown into the end zone itself? It's like we aren't allowed to use that part of the field to execute a play. Or maybe we are but it sure seems like we are scared to try.

2-0 but hopefully they get the offense moving a bit more.


Was it bad due to the execution or the calls. Most of what your referencing was bad play.
My biggest gripe  
Costy16 : 9/19/2022 9:30 am : link
Yesterday was that they didnt try to run the ball more early on in the game. I understand the Panthers were trying to take that away, but Jones had a subpar first half and the OL was shaky in protection. Also, there was too much playaction in the first half, which didn't make much sense when they weren't having any success running the ball. Running the ball helps the OL gain some traction and assert themselves.

In the second half they did run the ball more, especially at some crucial junctures late in the game.
RE: I thought he got  
Costy16 : 9/19/2022 9:33 am : link
In comment 15822896 Gman11 said:
Quote:
a little too cute when they got down inside the 10 after the second turnover. Barkley got them inside the 5. They should have given it to him again.

Otherwise, I think for the most part, the play calling is fine.


100% agreed on being cute. Barkley gets them inside the 5 and then they try to run a QB Power to the weak side with Jones which was stupid.

Also, the scripted run plays for Toney need to be scrapped. Way too obvious, let him get loose and run routes. On that broken play and the horrible OPI call on Sills, Toney juked probably the hardest I've seen anybody and sent the Panthers defender rolling probably 5 yards down the field.
RE: RE: I am pretty sure it's KAFKA., no T. In any event, I think  
Jimmy Googs : 9/19/2022 9:34 am : link
In comment 15822946 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 15822915 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


the play calling seems reasonable but the Offensive guys aren't getting it done well enough on field.

Those first two drives after the turnovers were excruciating not coming away with at least one TD. Two huge negative plays inside the 5 yard line...can't have it.

And I keep seeing Jones run play-action, or some deeper drops and he looks downfield but then he pulls the ball down and looks lost and gets sacked or falls ahead for 1-2 yards. The ball has to come out. Even get it to your outlet quicker.
Can't put it in harms way too often but give your guys some chances, force a PI or hold, throw a guy open....something. It feels like the ball doesn't come out unless Jones actually sees a guy open on his initial read.

And do you ever notice little the ball is actually thrown into the end zone itself? It's like we aren't allowed to use that part of the field to execute a play. Or maybe we are but it sure seems like we are scared to try.

2-0 but hopefully they get the offense moving a bit more.



Was it bad due to the execution or the calls. Most of what your referencing was bad play.


Yes, that is was what I said in not "getting it done well enough on the field."
I don't think I have formed an opinion on Kafka as a PC  
Essex : 9/19/2022 9:36 am : link
yet. I think the first halves have been abysmal--I thought both second halves he has gotten into a better ryhtym. We had three scoring possessions in the second half even though two of them were long field goals. I thought the TD drive was some great playcalling, but if I were to criticize there are time were the offense still looks inept (but maybe that is also due to bad personel which there is no doubt there is on this team).
....  
ryanmkeane : 9/19/2022 9:37 am : link
The thing for me that really stands out: no wasted plays or wasted runs up the middle on 2nd and long
RE: The play calling on the 1st  
TheMick7 : 9/19/2022 9:40 am : link
In comment 15822859 section125 said:
Quote:
2 series after the turnovers was atrocious. I am one that thinks he has been marginal, but he gets better after adjustments at halftime.
I also understand this is his 1st year calling plays. He will grow with the team. I think his inexperience making the calls is showing early in the games.


I agree. I think in both games his play calling in both first halves was shaky,but he made proper adjustments at halftime. Don't know if that's Daboll giving him input,but the second halves were the direct opposites of the firsts! The one play yesterday that drove me crazy in the red zone was when they ran Saquon from the shot gun on first down, he gets it to the 2-3 yard line & then they take him out & run the DJ boot that lost 7 yards. When you've got a Saquon & you're that close,he stays in the game & either you pound him inside or use him as a decoy!
RE: He's got a lot to overcome  
eric2425ny : 9/19/2022 9:50 am : link
In comment 15822861 gidiefor said:
Quote:
very few real weapons -- and an offensive line that has two holes in it (center and LG)


This. The defense is carrying the team right now, which makes sense because there is more talent on that side of the ball at the moment.

When you consider the LG and C issues and Golladay/Toney being pretty much useless what you are left with from a skill perspective is Barkley and some “high motor hard worker” type receivers like Sills, Richie James, Shepard. I think Kafka is doing a hell of a job given those constraints.

I suspect Schoen will be drafting some receivers pretty high in April. Wouldn’t surprise me to see a free agent brought in as well. It’s possible our entire wide receiver room is replaced next offseason.
He has come out trying to sling the ball  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/19/2022 9:50 am : link
and hopefully he recognizes he does not have the personnel for that (right now). Like to see him get a little more creative with formations.

They have to be ahead of down/distance with this talent. Hard to tell just watching live but Jones is holding the ball because they don't have a WR who can consistently win (shorter routes). Then in longer routes the PB issues surface.

Then he committed to the run which really helped the D. Now they have to find ways to win first down consistently. 2nd/3rd and long expose all the weaknesses.
People seem to complain about the play calling at the beginning  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2022 9:58 am : link
of games, and then of course praise it later in the game and of course the 2nd half. I think a point that is always missed is usually the first drive or two is scripted before. It is done this way because the staff doesn't know what adjustments the D will have made for this game. The first few drives are more about trying specific things to see what the defense is doing on certain looks and understanding their game plan. After this they can make adjustments. Really in most NFL games, even in blowouts the first drive or two usually end in few points.
One thing I’m sure all of us agree on  
eric2425ny : 9/19/2022 10:02 am : link
it’s amazing to finally have a coaching staff that makes adjustments at halftime. I don’t think we have had that in a decade.
RE: People seem to complain about the play calling at the beginning  
Essex : 9/19/2022 10:11 am : link
In comment 15823024 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
of games, and then of course praise it later in the game and of course the 2nd half. I think a point that is always missed is usually the first drive or two is scripted before. It is done this way because the staff doesn't know what adjustments the D will have made for this game. The first few drives are more about trying specific things to see what the defense is doing on certain looks and understanding their game plan. After this they can make adjustments. Really in most NFL games, even in blowouts the first drive or two usually end in few points.

I don't think this is true and this NFL you can't concede two possession--there is just too much scoring to not be as efficient on those possessions as others.
RE: The play calling on the 1st  
Fred-in-Florida : 9/19/2022 10:13 am : link
In comment 15822859 section125 said:
Quote:
2 series after the turnovers was atrocious. I am one that thinks he has been marginal, but he gets better after adjustments at halftime.
I also understand this is his 1st year calling plays. He will grow with the team. I think his inexperience making the calls is showing early in the games.


I think he was trying to hard to feature Toney early.
I think he is generally  
Joe Beckwith : 9/19/2022 10:31 am : link
doing a great job.
Remember , games 1-4 are preseason games for the starters, with one and a half( alternating Ezeudu) , and 2 other new OL. Working together will take some time, and even then…..
Opponents have a game plan too, and both try to attack the others weaknesses; Carolina D won the first half on D.
He’s running plays he thinks will work the the situation, and knowing what the players can do. Players need to make it work.
There is going to be a lot of trial and error this season while building a team, coordination and talent-wise.
RE: RE: Kafta/Daboll - botched the clock killing at the end  
ZogZerg : 9/19/2022 10:35 am : link
In comment 15822930 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 15822863 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


Should have just kneeled it instead of handing off to Barkley.





I thought that too after Jones got the first - just kneel.

But if they did that, I believe they'd still maybe have to punt? At it seems NFL coaches would rather chance a line plunge to eat up a few more seconds rather than actually have to lineup in punt formation with very few seconds left?

Again not sure unless we crunch the numbers.


Nope. My son screamed right away to kneel. He's real good with numbers and was right. Only second game, I'm sure the coaches will get it right next time. Again, not a huge deal unless there was a botched hand-off (As Giant fans, we know all about that).
i agree with most that he's doing a good - the 2 TE tds were basically  
Eric on Li : 9/19/2022 10:36 am : link
schemed touchdowns that were walk ins (or in bellinger's case a dive in). that's the sign of a good play caller, when you need to gain hard yards and they can do it. same with the brightwell run.

i didnt love the early RZ playcalling yesterday because they didn't take any shots into the end zone, but carolina may have been taking that away.

they are mostly keeping their foot on the gas and threatening defenses in all the ways you have to to make their jobs harder - which is what you want.

20 ppg is currently sitting 16th in the league, and they played 2 good Ds. That's +5 from last year too.
There was some stuff I really liked  
Daniel in MI : 9/19/2022 2:05 pm : link
The dive to (William’s?) on one short yardage play was good. Another play, the TD I think, they showed how they put the one defender in a bad position with 2 guys to defend.

I think part of the issue early both games is we use some plays to partially read how the D will react to some formations/motions. That gives us scheme info to attack that’s paying off second half.
Bellinger  
VanPelt/Manning#10 : 9/19/2022 2:18 pm : link
TD play, in my opinion, was beautifully designed. Although it looked pretty simple, it was more creative than anything we've seen in years. And yes, I also had a Pisarcik flashback at the end. (Jeepers!) So, all in all, lots to work on and improve, but enough to feel good about with Kafka.
RE: What’s the basis for criticism?  
joeinpa : 9/19/2022 2:18 pm : link
In comment 15822862 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Or praise for that matter. There’s a long standing pattern of detailed arguments about individual play calling on BBI looking at whether the call was bad or not. The debates often turn into a draw as the participants realize they don’t know enough about individual assignments to have an opinion.

Humility, guys, humility.


Easy answer. If the play is successful, it was a good call, if not, it wasn’t. That s the extent of my ability to critique play calling
RE: RE: People seem to complain about the play calling at the beginning  
Semipro Lineman : 9/19/2022 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15823055 Essex said:
Quote:


I don't think this is true and this NFL you can't concede two possession--there is just too much scoring to not be as efficient on those possessions as others.



It's not conceding the drive to have scripted plays, but rather it's using the early drives to not only gain yards but also to get a read on the opposing defense. In my opinion, several plays in the early stages of the game are definitely scripted in advance for the reasons PatersonPlank stated above.

I wonder if the regular reporters have asked the coaching staff if the beginning of the game is based on a pre-set script?
Overall, I have liked the playcalling.  
Matt M. : 9/19/2022 2:46 pm : link
I have found more issues with execution than a bad call. And often, I find a lot of plays, whether successful or not, are in line to set up other plays later in the game or season.
RE: The play calling on the 1st  
Carson53 : 9/19/2022 4:26 pm : link
In comment 15822859 section125 said:
Quote:
2 series after the turnovers was atrocious. I am one that thinks he has been marginal, but he gets better after adjustments at halftime.
I also understand this is his 1st year calling plays. He will grow with the team. I think his inexperience making the calls is showing early in the games.
.

I would concur, I thought Jason Garret or Kitchens was still around, too conservative. You need to make the other team pay for those early turnovers. It improved after halftime.
I am not sure what is going with the receiver corps though?
That's not on Kafka though, more on the head coach.
David Sills is getting an awful lot of playing time?
He's doing a decent job, but...
RE: Overall, I have liked the playcalling.  
Carson53 : 9/19/2022 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15823726 Matt M. said:
Quote:
I have found more issues with execution than a bad call. And often, I find a lot of plays, whether successful or not, are in line to set up other plays later in the game or season.
.

Using your theory, they should put the end around to Toney in their back pocket until later in the game...rather than the first series every time, it was predictable to me and more importantly the defense in the first two games. Save that play for later in the game!
The slow starts are most concerning  
dancing blue bear : 9/19/2022 5:39 pm : link
I believe there is a script for the first bunch of plays. Some coaches (andy reid) are amazing at it. Gilbride was good at getting points on early drives. the 2nd half adjustments have been excellent. Wish it would come sooner.

The redzone calls in the 1st were frustrating yesterday. too many wasted plays (backwards pass to KT, Wildcat, QB power. In that spot run power with SB or throw into the EZ. imo. don't get cute.

It took too long to figure out which running plays worked and the commitment to the run came in the 2nd half.

i also would like to see more shot plays. granted th Oline has been shaky inside, but dial up a max protect and throw it deep. at least 4 or 5 times a game.

The 2nd drive in the 2nd half was a beaut. they were killing them with the intermediate pass.. then they went away from it.

I still have faith, and he is new at this and will improve. The players are new in the system and they will improve as well. I also agree it takes a few weeks before it is really "regular season form"

I have seen some really cool sequencing and setting up the defense. It's mostly the first half i have had a problem with. better to figure it out after a win though

RE: i agree with most that he's doing a good - the 2 TE tds were basically  
JB_in_DC : 9/19/2022 5:52 pm : link
In comment 15823149 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
schemed touchdowns that were walk ins (or in bellinger's case a dive in). that's the sign of a good play caller, when you need to gain hard yards and they can do it. same with the brightwell run.


Huge issue with the 2021 version of the Giants. The only successful play call i can think of down there was the TD pass to Thomas lol
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