I guess I don't understand the dozens of friction post game yesterday. Tons of argumentative posts after a game THE GIANTS WON. The primary point of contention was about Daniel Jones. The odd thing to me is that I think most of us agree that:
-there is probably no circumstance where he is ever a top third QB in the league
-if everything is going right around him, could he be a Ryan Tannehill mediocre QB? Perhaps.
-is he more likely to be between 20-25th best QB in the league? Likely.
-its a low likelihood that he is a NYG after this season; perhaps that means a draft pick or trade for Trubisky or both but in the meantime is DJ and possibly TT if things get rough for DJ
Regardless, we're 2-0.
I'm happy to delete this if deemed an unnecessary DJ post. It just troubled me how the post game thread was so contentious.
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as well as Baker yesterday, the Giants would have lost. Baker was a first round pick too. Breaking news: There are very few QB's in the league that can claim to be the best. Top tier QB's are few and far between. The chances of the Giants drafting a QB that is better than Jones are probably 1 in 5 or less. They don't grow on trees.
The offense has been brutal. Jones struggles tremendously with getting the team into the end zone.
I just don’t understand how so many fans are content with this level of QB play.
I would not say that people are content with this level of QB play so much as there has been a lot of worse QB performances so far this year from QB's better than Jones. Indy with Matt Ryan and Jonathan Taylor TIE a crappy Houston team and get blanked by Jacksonville.
Oddly, very few of the QBs out of college ever do a damn thing. I agree that a fresh approach is likely to be needed next spring. There are a lot of names out there at QB, but usually by mid-NCAA season, half have been exposed.
If they pick middle of the pack, any QB left will likely not be an improvement, but will be cheaper. They may be better off taking a CB, OL, DE or WR.
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But there's no one out there next year who's better than him
Good point - it's very hard to find a better QB than Daniel Jones. Excuse me for a moment while I laugh very hard.
OK, that's better. More to the point, you haven't the faintest idea of who will be available this offseason, you dolt.
You think someone's going to drop from Mars that we haven't heard about? It's not my fault you're a complete idiot in every sport
The point is that next year is not the last year ever. Do you guys think the Giants are so cursed that they can never get a good starting QB ever again?
All those QBs in their primes were better than Jones, with the exception of Mills but it’s too early to tell if he’ll be better than Jones. That’s nearly a third of the starting QBs.
All those QBs in their primes were better than Jones, with the exception of Mills but it’s too early to tell if he’ll be better than Jones. That’s nearly a third of the starting QBs.
Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Dak, Flacco...The others are about the same as Jones. Dak, has been with a good team, but cannot get out of his way in the playoffs - but yes better in season.
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In comment 15823739 Snablats said:
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But there's no one out there next year who's better than him
Good point - it's very hard to find a better QB than Daniel Jones. Excuse me for a moment while I laugh very hard.
OK, that's better. More to the point, you haven't the faintest idea of who will be available this offseason, you dolt.
You think someone's going to drop from Mars that we haven't heard about? It's not my fault you're a complete idiot in every sport
So you know the ceiling of every college QB playing in the game today and that no one will ever outpace what Jones showed yesterday?
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In comment 15823756 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 15823739 Snablats said:
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But there's no one out there next year who's better than him
Good point - it's very hard to find a better QB than Daniel Jones. Excuse me for a moment while I laugh very hard.
OK, that's better. More to the point, you haven't the faintest idea of who will be available this offseason, you dolt.
You think someone's going to drop from Mars that we haven't heard about? It's not my fault you're a complete idiot in every sport
So you know the ceiling of every college QB playing in the game today and that no one will ever outpace what Jones showed yesterday?
There are a few who have a higher season and are eligible for 2023 Draft, but (1) who knows if any will fall into an area the Giants can reasonably obtain that pick and (2) many fail to reach their potential.
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Lamar went at the end of the first. Mahomes went 10th. Dak went 4th round. Wilson went 75th, Rodgers 24th. Carr went 36th. Cousins 102. Hurts 53. Flacco 18th. Davis Mills 67th.
All those QBs in their primes were better than Jones, with the exception of Mills but it’s too early to tell if he’ll be better than Jones. That’s nearly a third of the starting QBs.
Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Dak, Flacco...The others are about the same as Jones. Dak, has been with a good team, but cannot get out of his way in the playoffs - but yes better in season.
Cousins is as good as Jones? Cousins the last 6 years has averaged over 4000 yards, 30 tds, 10 interceptions while completing 67% of his passes. Maybe in terms of throwing Hurts and Jones are the same but Hurts scored points as 10x more dangerous with his legs.
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In comment 15823897 Snablats said:
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In comment 15823756 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 15823739 Snablats said:
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But there's no one out there next year who's better than him
Good point - it's very hard to find a better QB than Daniel Jones. Excuse me for a moment while I laugh very hard.
OK, that's better. More to the point, you haven't the faintest idea of who will be available this offseason, you dolt.
You think someone's going to drop from Mars that we haven't heard about? It's not my fault you're a complete idiot in every sport
So you know the ceiling of every college QB playing in the game today and that no one will ever outpace what Jones showed yesterday?
There are a few who have a higher season and are eligible for 2023 Draft, but (1) who knows if any will fall into an area the Giants can reasonably obtain that pick and (2) many fail to reach their potential.
Look forward to this years Willis (pick 5 for the Giants?. Quite a few of the QB gurus are on this thread as they are on most related to Jones and QB's in general.
Daboll & Schoen are going to pull the trigger on a qb at some point. Jones is a stopgap.
So long as he doesn’t lose us games with turnovers i’m ok with him.
Jones ceiling is that same class of QB as Darnold, Baker, and Goff. They're all on different teams for a reason. Just hope NYG management doesn't make the same mistake LAR did with Goff.
Daboll & Schoen are going to pull the trigger on a qb at some point. Jones is a stopgap.
So long as he doesn’t lose us games with turnovers i’m ok with him.
Great post.
Not having unconditional support for Daniel Jones is far more rooted in wanting the Giants to be great, not just good enough to win.
Carr too. He’s produced and carried some average raiders rosters.
Daboll & Schoen are going to pull the trigger on a qb at some point. Jones is a stopgap.
So long as he doesn’t lose us games with turnovers i’m ok with him.
Yep.
Wonder if Daboll had any thoughts of pulling him before he got them into the end zone on the Bellinger throw…
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And thats ok for now. I don’t think he stinks, I don’t think he’s great. He’s had a shit sandwich to work with since he got here. With that said, his vision and ability to maneuver the pocket isn’t very good. When he feels pressure he almost never slides and resets, he leaves the pocket. Did the Giants ruin him? They certainly didn’t help but these flaws were reported even before he was drafted.
Daboll & Schoen are going to pull the trigger on a qb at some point. Jones is a stopgap.
So long as he doesn’t lose us games with turnovers i’m ok with him.
Yep.
Wonder if Daboll had any thoughts of pulling him before he got them into the end zone on the Bellinger throw…
Had most time to throw per PFF, with a 51.5 grade
So who? None of the guys named on QB lists look anything like Lamar (who is 1-3 in the playoffs), Mahomes, Rodgers (who was picked 20 years ago)
So the hope is someone from somewhere whom no one has heard of yet - and this is for next season, not 5 years from now
But this mystery QB is for sure going to be much better than Jones next season
So who? None of the guys named on QB lists look anything like Lamar (who is 1-3 in the playoffs), Mahomes, Rodgers (who was picked 20 years ago)
So the hope is someone from somewhere whom no one has heard of yet - and this is for next season, not 5 years from now
But this mystery QB is for sure going to be much better than Jones next season
Re Yound, I'd be damned before I pick a QB who probably weighs 185 pounds. He'll last 2 weeks in the NFL
But you answered the question about Jones last January, even though an answer isnt needed until the end of April
You say over and over, since January, that the Giants need to get rid of Jones because there are better QBs to be had. You cant name any, but you know they are out there so the Giants have to get rid of Jones
No apologies or explanations are needed for this take. If you don't have the necessary faculties to absorb the years of objective evidence, it says much more about you than it does about me.
If we cut him tomorrow I have zero fears that he goes somewhere else and becomes Steve Young.
ZERO.
He is not awful because of above average straight line speed and a plus plus work ethic. Nothing else he has is elite.
His accuracy is adequate.
His arm will get the job done.
His processing is a little slow.
His pocket awareness is still less than average.
Above average with pre snap reads(maybe).
Vision(see the whole field) average.
I don't know why anyone is defending him to be honest.
So far this year Daniel Jones has been adequate.
In game 1 he did enough not to lose.
In game 2, he made important clutch throws when we had to have them. While he has had statistically better games, this was his best game as a NYG for me. He did leave plays out there, every QB does. This was more than a solid performance.
It wasn't 38-35 and he put the team on his back so spare me the superlatives.
He deserves praise and I am saying so.
If Daniel Jones keeps putting good games into history I may change my take based on the objective evidence. Until then, I am critic because I want a QB with a higher ceiling.
Now.
Morons.
Stop with the the Strawman.
"People here want to get rid of Jones at all costs"
They want to get rid of him because his production and availability have been poor.
Costs?
It is ridiculous and you are embarrassing yourself.
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The draft isn’t until the end of April. We don’t have to answer that question on September 19th
But you answered the question about Jones last January, even though an answer isnt needed until the end of April
You say over and over, since January, that the Giants need to get rid of Jones because there are better QBs to be had. You cant name any, but you know they are out there so the Giants have to get rid of Jones
Daniel Jones has put forth enough of a report card a decision can be made on him. Most of the prospects are only starting their third season. Your post is nonsense
Actually, yes. There were WRs open all over the field throughout the game that Jones missed/didn’t see/didn’t throw to despite taking an above average amount of time (as usual) to get rid of the ball.
I suppose I should be happy that he didn’t fumble this week despite causing sacks with his inability to progress through his reads. Way to go?
The dude stinks. Always has.
@DanSchneierNFL
Great blitz pickup by Barkley, nice play call off play action and route combos by Kafka, but Daniel Jones doesn't come close to reading Toney on the deep over (who seems open forever) for what would be a chunk gain. With KT and that much space, that could easily be a TD #Giants
This is so bad. Yet, the Giants supposedly will not be able to find someone better. Watch the video.
Link - ( New Window )
Tons and tons of little things that are hard to quantify or even notice sometimes. But good QBs do them well and it adds up. Bad QBs don't. They miss opportunities, they don't extend plays, they don't extend drives. That's what we've been living with for 4 years now and hopefully not a minute beyond the end of this season.
It has to be reported on and captured on video when a QB is missing open receivers.
People are forming die hard opinions without the information.
It has to be reported on and captured on video when a QB is missing open receivers.
People are forming die hard opinions without the information.
Besides needing the all 22 (which is available usually Tuesday to see the routes develop you would need to know the play and progression (vs a specific defense) to know definitely what was missed. Also any specific instructions that apply to the situation at hand.
Even when professionals who break down video - they admit there are facts that don’t have and the conclusions are an educated guess.
Those who claim seeing missed reads from their la-z-boy on Sunday are talking out their ass. There’s plenty of that. And plenty that just parrot their favorite personalities.
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The draft isn’t until the end of April. We don’t have to answer that question on September 19th
But you answered the question about Jones last January, even though an answer isnt needed until the end of April
You say over and over, since January, that the Giants need to get rid of Jones because there are better QBs to be had. You cant name any, but you know they are out there so the Giants have to get rid of Jones
Digging in more here St Albans dupe?
Jones has 3 years of NFL film for us to make that call on him this past offseason. So did Schoen which is why he passed on exercising the 5th option.
Are you struggling with these facts?
Those who claim seeing missed reads from their la-z-boy on Sunday are talking out their ass. There’s plenty of that. And plenty that just parrot their favorite personalities.
It's a lot easier to notice that a QB doesn't see the whole field or misses an open man once you see the all-22. I'm not talking about being able to decipher the play, that takes more sophisticated knowledge of what's supposed to happen on any given snap.
Jones being not fast enough to process entirely what he sees play out in front of him is something that's followed him from college. The all-22 is just further confirmation of a known critique.
I’m only saying in the moment, on the game threads or anytime before the all 22 is released people claiming that are full of shit/ guessing/ whatever. Then it gets repeated a few times and then accepted as fact.
The other thing is no one outside the org knows the design, progression, rules, etc
It’s fine that we guess. I prefer an educated guess, but to each their own
I get annoyed at people presenting their opinions as facts
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Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
Great blitz pickup by Barkley, nice play call off play action and route combos by Kafka, but Daniel Jones doesn't come close to reading Toney on the deep over (who seems open forever) for what would be a chunk gain. With KT and that much space, that could easily be a TD #Giants
This is so bad. Yet, the Giants supposedly will not be able to find someone better. Watch the video. Link - ( New Window )
lol. How the phucque does anyone here know what Toney is supposed to be running there? There's obviously a reason he hasn't been getting a lot of time, and I have read more than once that he likes to freelance. Based on what Shpard said in his interview, I can guarantee that's not going to fly with Daboll (and it would make sense why we are not seeing much of him). He gets caught in a bit of a wash and then sort of strafes to the center of the field. Nobody on this page knows if that is a route in the Daboll / Kafka tree or not. And QBs don't just scan the field looking for guys freelancing (if that is in fact what's happening here).
lol
Forget KT for a second, who is clearly wide open, and part of that route design.
If you watch that video even more closely, you'll see that Shep (#3) is coming open on the delay route from the right side after coming in motion and working through the traffic. He has split both linebackers and is open right at the 35-yard line. That is a pretty easy throw for Jones.
But he looks locked in on Sills - looks like a poorly run Slugo route - and completely misses Shep and KT.
Geezus.
- Protect himself better when he runs the ball
- Win the pre-snap chess games more often
- Hit the home run balls when they are there
Those are the table stakes for him. He can do that no matter what happens around him. Schoen didn't have the resources to fix the surroundings this year, and there's no reinforcements showing up.
Because make no mistake, this is a tryout for Daniel Jones.
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Freelance or not, just another example of Jones not seeing the field. Being a QB now is so much about making plays off schedule, not being a robot.
Forget KT for a second, who is clearly wide open, and part of that route design.
If you watch that video even more closely, you'll see that Shep (#3) is coming open on the delay route from the right side after coming in motion and working through the traffic. He has split both linebackers and is open right at the 35-yard line. That is a pretty easy throw for Jones.
But he looks locked in on Sills - looks like a poorly run Slugo route - and completely misses Shep and KT.
I saw that with shep and almost wondered if he was the second read
Regardless I agree that he never came off sills up top and there was time to get to KT or shep before he got sacked.
While that go route or whatever was probably a good matchup on paper (1v1 with no saftey over the top) sills was never gonna eat up that cushion and get bast the cb. It probably never had a chance with sills maybe slayton tho.
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In comment 15824034 ajr2456 said:
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The draft isn’t until the end of April. We don’t have to answer that question on September 19th
But you answered the question about Jones last January, even though an answer isnt needed until the end of April
You say over and over, since January, that the Giants need to get rid of Jones because there are better QBs to be had. You cant name any, but you know they are out there so the Giants have to get rid of Jones
Digging in more here St Albans dupe?
Jones has 3 years of NFL film for us to make that call on him this past offseason. So did Schoen which is why he passed on exercising the 5th option.
Are you struggling with these facts?
You are the dupe LEH15. You are the one who was suspended from this site and then snuck back in under your dupe handle
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Lamar went at the end of the first. Mahomes went 10th. Dak went 4th round. Wilson went 75th, Rodgers 24th. Carr went 36th. Cousins 102. Hurts 53. Flacco 18th. Davis Mills 67th.
All those QBs in their primes were better than Jones, with the exception of Mills but it’s too early to tell if he’ll be better than Jones. That’s nearly a third of the starting QBs.
Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Dak, Flacco...The others are about the same as Jones. Dak, has been with a good team, but cannot get out of his way in the playoffs - but yes better in season.
I would take Dak and Flacco off your list as well.
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This season is playing out a lot like posters like BW and I predicted. This team is fundamentally better coached, and the defense is completely standing on its head. This is a 7-9 win team.
It's remarkable how well the defense is playing with the two primary pass rushers out and the issues at cornerback. If we're handing out compliments, the defense gets 99% of them. Hopefully Williams isn't bay injured, because the story of the season so far has been how well the d-line has played.
The offense has scored 40 points in two games, which over a long enough time frame portends to more losses than wins. There's not a lot to compliment the offense for having done. The offense is giving the defense no margin for error.
they're currently 16th in ppg, so wouldn't that project out to being about .500 even if the defense regressed a little bit? they are 9th in points allowed so 'completely standing on its' head' seems hyperbolic. they let ten go right down the field for the potentially game winning kick and had it gone in they'd be 1-1 (which is probably what they realistically deserve to be). it's impressive coaching given the injuries but also a byproduct of some matchups that have played to their strengths stopping the run.
in terms of the offense i think everyone is missing the forrest from the trees. if 20ppg is the baseline even when the offense is scuffling with james/sills leading them in receiving, that may imply upside beyond most of what was predicted (and nobody predicted 2-0 so implying things have only played out as expected is also a distortion). that's not a point specific to jones but it is inclusive of him.
Here comes another extrapolation from a small sample size, coming from the guy who actually tried to be righteous about extrapolation from small sample sizes.
Just a DJ fanboy masquerading as someone who understands data.
Dak is also better than Jones, it’s ok to admit this even though he’s a cowboy and has a good team around him.
@BobbySkinner_
4 plays where Daniel Jones has to pull the trigger
1. Shep has as much space as you’ll get on the GL.
2. pressure but that’s a maneuverable pocket
3. Toney
4. Bellinger
These 4 plays are the difference between having a good game or having the 31st passing offense in the NFL.
Link - ( New Window )
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Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
4 plays where Daniel Jones has to pull the trigger
1. Shep has as much space as you’ll get on the GL.
2. pressure but that’s a maneuverable pocket
3. Toney
4. Bellinger
These 4 plays are the difference between having a good game or having the 31st passing offense in the NFL.
Link - ( New Window )
When watching those plays live, I've definitely experienced the clock in my own head (even when the blocking looks fine) saying you gotta get rid of it. Sometimes you throw receivers open, sometimes you place the ball low or high or wherever your receiver has a shot and the defense is not well positioned to make a play.
There seems to be this thing with Jones that oddly some people even refuse to acknowledge where our choices are him playing super conservatively or just turning the ball over a lot. I don't like either of those options. And frankly it kind of displays that he's not even the personality type I want at QB. I want a fierce competitor that says if I am going to lose this starting job I'm going to lose it trying to make plays, trying to get through more of my reads. Trying to make something happen not have something happen for me.
Increasingly I'm comforted by the fact that I do not think BD is super happy with his play. But as much as I would relish a playoff appearance if it costs us Jones on a 5 year deal, I think that might be too high a price.
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Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
4 plays where Daniel Jones has to pull the trigger
1. Shep has as much space as you’ll get on the GL.
2. pressure but that’s a maneuverable pocket
3. Toney
4. Bellinger
These 4 plays are the difference between having a good game or having the 31st passing offense in the NFL.
Link - ( New Window )
The Toney and Bellinger ones are huge misses. Bad enough to not move his head somewhat to right to see a completely uncovered Toney, but the Bellinger one is as easy as it gets for a Tight End touchdown in the NFL...