I guess I don't understand the dozens of friction post game yesterday. Tons of argumentative posts after a game THE GIANTS WON. The primary point of contention was about Daniel Jones. The odd thing to me is that I think most of us agree that:
-there is probably no circumstance where he is ever a top third QB in the league
-if everything is going right around him, could he be a Ryan Tannehill mediocre QB? Perhaps.
-is he more likely to be between 20-25th best QB in the league? Likely.
-its a low likelihood that he is a NYG after this season; perhaps that means a draft pick or trade for Trubisky or both but in the meantime is DJ and possibly TT if things get rough for DJ
Regardless, we're 2-0.
I'm happy to delete this if deemed an unnecessary DJ post. It just troubled me how the post game thread was so contentious.
the good news is we have Daboll and our own version of Kellen Moore in Kafka, so if there's more to get out of him hopefully we'll see it as the year progresses.
I'm not sure a lot of people believe Jones is as complete a QB as Tannehill. Same type of QB yes, but I think if you polled NFL GMs and gave them a choice between the two, Tannehill would be close to if not a unanimous choice.
It wasn’t a rout. There are areas where the team can be criticized. Objectivity isn’t negativity.
Of course. But this is different with Jones. I am elling you right now there are fans on this board that do not want Jones to succeed. And not necessarily because of pride, maybe some of that too, but more they are so afraid of Daniel Jones. If he does well? It's a fluke and won't be sustained.
Some fans just refuse to believe this guy can have a solid NFL career. IT's fucking weird. Nothing should be that black and white.
The problem is that those who are exceptional criticizers keep criticizing even in wins looking for any reason to do so. There are very few praisers. It just gets old when certain posters keep looking for the same blemishes even after wins. Of course you can look under the hood. But there is also good under the hood. The problem is those looking under the hood but not acknowledging that despite some leaks around the valve covers, the engine is still running. We almost all understand we have the 1.6 liter Escort motor and not the 426 hemi.
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66% of his passes for 230 yards a game. Jones isn’t that.
OK? And?
Ill say it again--Jones just outplayed two QBs making more money than him in Baker and Tannenhill.
There's irony in this such that Tannehill and Mayfield are on their second teams because they weren't good enough to establish a home with the teams that drafted them.
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Ill say it again--Jones just outplayed two QBs making more money than him in Baker and Tannenhill.
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I don’t agree with this at all. I thought Jones was the 2nd best QB on the field both games. And I’m not at all enamored of either Baker or Tannehill’s play. But it was better than DJ’s.
HOW??? Baker was clearly less effective.
I give up.
If Jones throws for 285 and 3 tds I’ll be ecstatic because the Giants are 3-0! And he’ll get a lot of compliments, but let’s see him do it.
What a weird attack.
It's not a attack. Simply reality. Dak and Tannenhill have had very similar circumstances.
Now if you can show how Jones had this level of support maybe you will have some credibility.
Jones first three years the OL had how many pro bowlers? What were the rushing carries and ave.? TE?
Both Tanny and Dak were in lead leading rushing offenses. Not understanding the impact that has on the passing game is not understanding offensive football.
Then if the argument is well QB's overcome that. Fine, who are the WR's to help? How has the PP been?
What a weird attack.
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In comment 15823203 djm said:
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Ill say it again--Jones just outplayed two QBs making more money than him in Baker and Tannenhill.
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I don’t agree with this at all. I thought Jones was the 2nd best QB on the field both games. And I’m not at all enamored of either Baker or Tannehill’s play. But it was better than DJ’s.
HOW??? Baker was clearly less effective.
I give up.
Baker was not good, Jones was better. Hell Jones directed the winning drive, something Baker couldn't do. I consider Jones a mid-table QB, but I'm not trading him for Baker.
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In comment 15823151 ajr2456 said:
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66% of his passes for 230 yards a game. Jones isn’t that.
OK? And?
Ill say it again--Jones just outplayed two QBs making more money than him in Baker and Tannenhill.
There's irony in this such that Tannehill and Mayfield are on their second teams because they weren't good enough to establish a home with the teams that drafted them.
OK fine. HE still beat the first two teams yet we aren't really allowed to acknowledge this without more debate.
Tannenhill was home playing with a better cast and LOST. He didn't get the big TD when needed and he didn't get close enough for a chip shot FG at the end. Want to be fair ok Lets call their matchup even but Jones got the W.
Jones CLEARLY outplayed Baker yesterday. Baker not only had better protection he had better WRs and his D was pressuring the opposing QB all day long. Jones scored more pts and kept the ball away at the end. Advantage Jones. Baker had that game on a platter and couldn't close. Jones clearly did.
There is a lot of push back to criticizing our mediocre QB after a win
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Doesn't seem very neighborly.
Says one of the antagonists....geezus.
It is a good post. It is absolutely true. A large number understand Jones is not the answer and we just want him to make plays when he can and protect the ball when he cannot - and hand off to Barkley. There is no real reason the nitpick on what he didn't do - we all know what he cannot do.
The one thing that has happened this year that has not happened in the past, Jones has lead game winning drives twice. And was able to run out the clock yesterday.
I think it's strange you are lashing out at me personally. I made one innocuous comment on the thread in question, and always avoid attacking people personally. So I'm not guilty of whatever the OP is going on about. If the hope is to have a collegial atmosphere, why would you stoop to attacks? I've always been respectful to you. If you are a mature person you can handle disagreement. We all have opinions, and sometimes we will have a different opinion than you. To label folks who disagree with you as antagonizers seems Stalinesque, if I remember my Russoan history classes correctly.
He has no top WRs, his pass protection has been poor, and a new scheme. He has been below average but did lead two GW drives in the 4th quarters and is 2-0
He has no top WRs, his pass protection has been poor, and a new scheme. He has been below average but did lead two GW drives in the 4th quarters and is 2-0
Right from Sy himself:
I have said is a good QB. That does not change he had outstanding support to start things off his first few years to adjust to the NFL. He capitalized on that and got better. It does not change my point.
You have to help your QB most his first few years. It is SOP. I'm not a big Jones fan. I also am not going to place all the blame on him. His support has been way lackluster (being kind).
There is a lot of push back to criticizing our mediocre QB after a win
Let that marinate a bit.
ON a 3rd and long, up 3 with time winding down, Jones took a scramble UP THE MIDDLE, with Carolina desperate for a stop, and got the first down. This was the biggest play of the game. If you polled BBI before the season and asked what are the odds that Jones closes the game in that scenario, EVERY single one of us, myself included, says Jones doesn't get that first, doesn't close it out and we're punting the ball back.
One game at a time. Things are fine right now. Jones and the offense need to play better, we can't go on winning games an scoring 20 PPG for very long, but it's early. The offense might improve with more time.
I think there is a fire truck out in front of your house right now :)
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Doesn't seem very neighborly.
I think there is a fire truck out in front of your house right now :)
This thread isn't about me. Try to keep up.
Having said all of that, he also hasn’t stunk…. And to speak to the OP’s question, some people are actively rooting against Jones and, by extension, the Giants because of some really bizarre hate issues. I’ll leave my arm chair psychology degree in the drawer. I don’t pretend to get it, but is peculiar and sad behavior.
Admitting the other truth does not negate the one you are clinging to.
Jones may be having trouble processing what he is seeing after the snap
And
Jones (in the past) has been hamstrung with a horrible OL, bad WR group and often injured Barkley
He will never be a top QB in this league but we can say that about most QB starters. We have to find a way to win a championship anyway.
Eli was not a top QB in the regular season. Far from it but we built a team around him. When he had no team around him, we saw what his performances looked like. he lead the league in INTs one year.
The only comparison here is both could not do it on their own. There may be 5 guys on the planet who can and you never know if they guy you are drafting is one of those guys. People thought Trevor Lawrence was.
No one expected Jones to make that 3rd down scramble yesterday. That play tells me he's a different player. Not sure how good, there are 15 games left, a lot will happen, but Jones is growing as a player to this fan.
Jones has contributed but the Giants still have not come full circle.......yet. Whether Jones is here or not the better the fix the parts around the QB the better things will be.
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66% of his passes for 230 yards a game. Jones isn’t that.
On the post game thread, I set the over/under on the number of posts you'll make about Jones this week at 100. I bet the farm and true to form, you're already blowing by that number by Monday!
And you're probably proud as a pig in shit to keep telling us!
I do my best to avoid him but he shows up with his incessant criticism of Jones that is appalling to read. I don’t think he said one good thing about Jonesxafter the game. I’m sure he wants Jones to fail more than the Giants to win.
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In comment 15823151 ajr2456 said:
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66% of his passes for 230 yards a game. Jones isn’t that.
jones career comp% is 63% (up to 70 this year) and his career ypg is 220. but thanks for playing.
Now do their touchdowns.
my god are you dense. the comment was re how he's playing right now in the present. that's obviously just a 2 game sample size but it's all we have to go on with the new regime and in it we've seen Jones improve on prior baselines in ways that have contributed to wins.
the most obvious of those improvements is that they seem to be running an offensive scheme that has led to more points (20ppg) and more touchdowns like his rookie year. you remember that year right? that was one he threw more touchdowns (24) in 12 starts than dak did in any of his first 3 full seasons (aka the pre-KM period before Dallas was willing to commit to him as a franchise qb and his reported 30m aav asking was a punchline).
none of that is to say the jury is back on jones yet or that any of this is predictive - this could be a 2 game fluke and he very well may need to move on to a new team like tannehill did or not continue to improve like dak did. but for right now he's playing like the same type of effective game manager who can make plays to help his team win games as they did/do in tannehill's case. it's also within the realm of possibility that the entire offense improves as they get more comfortable in the new scheme as each of those players did in their 4th years and beyond with better coaching.
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In comment 15823151 ajr2456 said:
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66% of his passes for 230 yards a game. Jones isn’t that.
On the post game thread, I set the over/under on the number of posts you'll make about Jones this week at 100. I bet the farm and true to form, you're already blowing by that number by Monday!
And you're probably proud as a pig in shit to keep telling us!
I do my best to avoid him but he shows up with his incessant criticism of Jones that is appalling to read. I don’t think he said one good thing about Jonesxafter the game. I’m sure he wants Jones to fail more than the Giants to win.
Well you’d be wrong. I have to compliment every single player on the team even if I don’t find their performance anything to write home about? Or is complimenting McKinney, Thomas, the rest of the defense and the coaching staff enough.
Having said all of that, he also hasn’t stunk…. And to speak to the OP’s question, some people are actively rooting against Jones and, by extension, the Giants because of some really bizarre hate issues. I’ll leave my arm chair psychology degree in the drawer. I don’t pretend to get it, but is peculiar and sad behavior.
I have a similar view of things and going back to last year I'd actually say that Jones played better through the first few weeks (especially what he did in Washington and New orleans).
but what's positive in that is that the new offense is so much more functional the results have been better despite him clearly being not as comfortable in the system yet. so what's most encouraging is less jones and more that the coaching staff has gotten a 100 pt QB rating and 20ppg against 2 good defenses despite jones not playing his best. he's got another 15 games left in the audition to see if he can reach the higher level we've seen in glimpses more consistently and what that looks like within this new scheme.
He missed a lot of big throws in this game. You could see it easily from the end zone. The Giants are 2-0 despite of Daniel Jones and is at always fun to root for
The Giants are 2-0 despite Jones. You really struggle with vocabulary, don't you?
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ajr2456 : 9/18/2022 5:30 pm : link : reply
He missed a lot of big throws in this game. You could see it easily from the end zone. The Giants are 2-0 despite of Daniel Jones and is at always fun to root for
The Giants are 2-0 despite Jones. You really struggle with vocabulary, don't you?
When did I say complimented Jones?
Your answer says it all. You refuse to compliment Jones - and defend vigorously that opinion.
Does it take away from your narrative?
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Are miserable people. There’s another thread where someone said Sheppard has no balls.
Why does Jones get this bubble around him?
If it were just criticism, ok.
But the absolute irrational obsession that so many have here and the utter lack of any attempt at objectivity strongly suggests to me that Sy has nailed it.
I don't see it as irrational for fans of a team to be concerned about how the most important position on the team might be handled.
I hope that this current version of Jones is not our quarterback after this season. Is that an offensive thing to say?
I have more than a few Cowboys fans as friends. I'm not sure how that happened lol, but it's true. They almost all want Dak gone and think he is way overrated by the rest of the league.
It’s amazing you could compliment 99 of the 100 people in the organization but if you’re critical about Daniel Jones you’re a miserable moron who wants the Giants to lose.
You can be impressed with how Jones has played thus far that’s perfectly fine, some of us don’t have to be and can say we want to see better play from him.
Try not to edit this post.
And they watch other teams play and recognize that while other QBs are imperfect and do make mistakes, they also often do things Jones has not often shown he can do.
Let that marinate a bit.
ON a 3rd and long, up 3 with time winding down, Jones took a scramble UP THE MIDDLE, with Carolina desperate for a stop, and got the first down. This was the biggest play of the game. If you polled BBI before the season and asked what are the odds that Jones closes the game in that scenario, EVERY single one of us, myself included, says Jones doesn't get that first, doesn't close it out and we're punting the ball back.
One game at a time. Things are fine right now. Jones and the offense need to play better, we can't go on winning games an scoring 20 PPG for very long, but it's early. The offense might improve with more time.
The camera pan to multiple Carolina Panthers sitting on the ground looking so dejected after that run, when the play ended, because they knew that play broke their backs... we haven't witnessed things like that happening in favor of the Giants in quite some time.
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Or just saying Dak is underrated by Giants fans? Not everything is an insult to Jones
I have more than a few Cowboys fans as friends. I'm not sure how that happened lol, but it's true. They almost all want Dak gone and think he is way overrated by the rest of the league.
Do they live on Long Island? I probably grew up with more cowboy and packers fan friends than Giants fans.
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In comment 15823255 ajr2456 said:
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Or just saying Dak is underrated by Giants fans? Not everything is an insult to Jones
I have more than a few Cowboys fans as friends. I'm not sure how that happened lol, but it's true. They almost all want Dak gone and think he is way overrated by the rest of the league.
Do they live on Long Island? I probably grew up with more cowboy and packers fan friends than Giants fans.
Actually one is, but quite a few in NY around Westchester and Poughkeepsie and also a bunch in CT. I always found it baffling... lol.
Haha, OK I laughed I did
You don’t know what people are thinking Mike….you can only base their thoughts on their words…Words speak louder than thoughts.
People have posted here that they hope that the Giants struggle this year so that is more likely that they move on from Daniel Jones after this year is over.
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If you believe that, you are so lost in your own emotions that you should probably take a break from posting. That is an absolutely absurd belief.
You don’t know what people are thinking Mike….you can only base their thoughts on their words…Words speak louder than thoughts.
You think people are spending hours every week on this site because they root against the Giants. Possible, but cmon, not likely. We are all Giants fans here.