I guess I don't understand the dozens of friction post game yesterday. Tons of argumentative posts after a game THE GIANTS WON. The primary point of contention was about Daniel Jones. The odd thing to me is that I think most of us agree that:
-there is probably no circumstance where he is ever a top third QB in the league
-if everything is going right around him, could he be a Ryan Tannehill mediocre QB? Perhaps.
-is he more likely to be between 20-25th best QB in the league? Likely.
-its a low likelihood that he is a NYG after this season; perhaps that means a draft pick or trade for Trubisky or both but in the meantime is DJ and possibly TT if things get rough for DJ
Regardless, we're 2-0.
I'm happy to delete this if deemed an unnecessary DJ post. It just troubled me how the post game thread was so contentious.
I don't "root" for Jones to fail. I acknowledge and accept that he's a below-average NFL quarterback and that the team will be fairly limited so long as he's around. I want him gone because I want to see a team capable of contending for a championship, something Daniel Jones is fundamentally incapable of doing.
And if you're going to laud him for "engineering the game winning drive" yesterday, could you at least be upfront about how unimpressive a drive it actually was? 11 plays to go 37 yards? Most of the yardage came on the ground.
People get on Jones for not putting up big numbers ..... but for some offenses the big numbers just aren't there to be taken.
People get on Jones for not putting up big numbers ..... but for some offenses the big numbers just aren't there to be taken.
it's ok.. he generally doesn't see his open receivers even if he has time and they do get separation, unless it's a first read or scripted read.
There is a lot of push back to criticizing our mediocre QB after a win
That is because the OL and WR's determine their own performance first, by blocking their man or getting open. Those things have to happen FIRST for the QB to have a chance to perform at a high level.
If they don't block and don't get open, the QB will have a bad day. Like Aaron Rogers in week 1:
22 of 34, 195 yards. 64.7% complete. Average 5.7 yards. 0 TD, 1 INT. 67.7 rating.
No one expected Jones to make that 3rd down scramble yesterday. That play tells me he's a different player. Not sure how good, there are 15 games left, a lot will happen, but Jones is growing as a player to this fan.
I would push back on "nobody" expected Jones to make that 3rd down play. Jones, as a rookie, had the sense to run in a TD that won a game in Tampa. His best asset is his legs.
Credit for him for making that decision yesterday instead of forcing a throw.
People get on Jones for not putting up big numbers ..... but for some offenses the big numbers just aren't there to be taken.
At some point these same excuses are going to have to stop, because there will be games this year where the Giants are going to have to go score 30 to win which will require Jones do something he hasn’t really done since probably the Saints game.
Washington, Lions, Ravens, Eagles , Vikings offenses all look to be very good through two weeks. Those might be tough games to win 20-19
I've seen people saying bad things about Jones accused of having an "agenda." I don't think anyone's agenda's are very hidden here. People like myself were taken to task for having an axe to grind with DG and lord knows I had a big ax. But instead of an attitude around here like hey, maybe that was the right ax to have. There seems instead to be a strange undercurrent from many to prove that maybe DG wasn't so terrible.
And here we are with DJ. Mike in Ohio's post yesterday on that thread got me thinking. The Yankees this season were on a tear but still many people were on there talking about trades they needed to make, team weaknesses. Because that is more interesting to discuss. I saw little to no energy wasted telling those people they weren't "enjoying" the wins.
I'm enjoying these wins for sure, I'll be going to my first Giants games in years this year. That doesn't change the fact that I don't like watching Jones as my QB. For no other reason than he doesn't exude confidence. Not sure how many people play Tennis but when you are better than a player you are making them run, dictating the pace looking for your winners. When you are overmatched, you are playing safe and hoping your opponent messes up. Jones had one drive yesterday where he was dictating the pace, and I loved watching that. Sadly more often then not he plays he has no confidence in his ability to hit "winners" and is waiting for the defense to mess up. I do not enjoy watching that type of QB, I do not want to watch him be the Giants QB for years and years after that because I do not see that problem going away.
I like Schoen, I'm starting to love Daboll. I have tons of "positivity" and "negativity" in me ready to roll when the situations arise. I think the friction here comes from hard feelings of Giants fans that have been wrong year after year trying to tell us we were wrong to be down on the team, down on the leadership. They feel like DJ, they want him to take up the mantle of proving all us naysayers wrong.
But that's the difference in the naysayers and the homers. Some people like myself, really enjoy changing their opinion, especially when it is watching the team I love win. So the satisfaction you are aggressively looking for through some kind of grand admission that we were wrong about everything isn't coming. I don't think Jones is a playoff QB, I would be ecstatic if he proves me wrong but he won't. He's the same shaky QB overall even in wins and when his team is handing him easy field position starts. Good on him for coming up big in some of these situations, credit to his teammates, him and the coaches. That's the difference between the "positive" and "negative" people. The DG people dragged their own stinking corpses around threads attacking those with all the data backing up the points they were correctly asserting for years and still come back here with their predictable but totally out of place smug sense of pride. You need not drag me anywhere the day Jones proves he's a playoff QB, I will happily eat my crow. Just don't tell me I'm not being positive enough because I don't think I'm watching that QB especially when you refused to look at very obvious data that the team stunk.
Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that he's had 3 OC's, about 31 different offensive linemen and receivers over the first 3 years of his career...that might have something to do with his struggles.
Crickets.
Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that he's had 3 OC's, about 31 different offensive linemen and receivers over the first 3 years of his career...that might have something to do with his struggles.
If he is that QB why are his coaches coming from high octane offenses limiting him throwing the ball so much and playing so conservatively? You don't even have logic on your side. His own coaching staff doesn't think of him as that type of QB. Why do you?
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In comment 15823438 Mike from Ohio said:
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If you believe that, you are so lost in your own emotions that you should probably take a break from posting. That is an absolutely absurd belief.
You don’t know what people are thinking Mike….you can only base their thoughts on their words…Words speak louder than thoughts.
You think people are spending hours every week on this site because they root against the Giants. Possible, but cmon, not likely. We are all Giants fans here.
Hey….I will be honest here and tell everyone I was rooting for NY to lose toward the end of last season. I had my reasons- fire DG, fire Judge, and get a higher draft pick.
I didn’t care about Glennon leading the team, so I was rooting for the players to play competitively, learn from their mistakes BUT LOSE FOR THE GREATER GOOD.
I ADMIT THIS….if you think this makes me a poor Giant fan, so be it. Honestly I don’t care what you think because I don’t live my life to please you….nevertheless….I have a feeling I wasn’t the only one wishing for this. And I got my results….and very glad about it.
Thus, I do believe there are Giant fans who today are wishing for more losses so that Jones can be replaced by whoever- Willis last year, who knows this year. I don’t call these guys non Giant fans because they do want Giants to win….i know they are Giant fans because they want the Giants to win according to their formula, which is simply…get rid of Jones and we improve our chances to win period. So they believe it is better to lose now with Jones in order to move on from him, which they believe and hope will prove them right.
So no Mike, to say that no true Giant fan does not root for them to lose is illogical and arrogant because you think your standard is the ONE AND ONLY STANDARD……and it’s not. Giant fans can and do root for losses too.
The whole thing is synergistic of course. If we had Dan Marino back there, the pass rush becomes hesitant, the holes are there in the running game and WRs getting open for just a second result in a completion. The fact that the offense looks stuck in mud at times isn’t always directly because of Jones, but he is at the center of the situation and is at some level responsible.
He's had some moments, but he's otherwise been mediocre to poor.
Gee I don't know, maybe the fact that he's had 3 OC's, about 31 different offensive linemen and receivers over the first 3 years of his career...that might have something to do with his struggles.
Ah, yes, that Mt Rushmore of QB passing performances, those 4 great Jones games in 2019. Conquering those bottom feeding defenses. He hasn’t done anything since because of that evil cabal of coaches. But we know he can do that every week, we just know it.
Sterling Shepard - ( New Window )
We've opened the year against the Titans on the road and then a good defense where we were outmatched for a lot of that game. But he threw the ball 34 times yesterday. Including some darts to nobody receivers that ended up being huge plays in the game.
On the play that won us the game, instead of throwing it away or just going down, he saw a lane and ran for the first down. Winning play. You'd think posters would be overjoyed with this. Nope.
The coaching staff is clearly limiting what they ask him to do, we’ll see if feel comfortable asking him to do more this year.
We've opened the year against the Titans on the road and then a good defense where we were outmatched for a lot of that game. But he threw the ball 34 times yesterday. Including some darts to nobody receivers that ended up being huge plays in the game.
On the play that won us the game, instead of throwing it away or just going down, he saw a lane and ran for the first down. Winning play. You'd think posters would be overjoyed with this. Nope.
Some of the lowest yards per passes thrown in the league. Are we really still doing this thing where we make every excuse in the book and ignore the overriding data? Because that's annoying and tiresome
24th in yards per pass thrown - ( New Window )
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we had 25 yards rushing. We also, again had major problems in pass pro. Our WRs do't get much separation.
People get on Jones for not putting up big numbers ..... but for some offenses the big numbers just aren't there to be taken.
it's ok.. he generally doesn't see his open receivers even if he has time and they do get separation, unless it's a first read or scripted read.
how would you ever know what his first read is?
It's remarkable how well the defense is playing with the two primary pass rushers out and the issues at cornerback. If we're handing out compliments, the defense gets 99% of them. Hopefully Williams isn't bay injured, because the story of the season so far has been how well the d-line has played.
The offense has scored 40 points in two games, which over a long enough time frame portends to more losses than wins. There's not a lot to compliment the offense for having done. The offense is giving the defense no margin for error.
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NoGain - so you think Brian Daboll and Mik Kafka are going into the game saying "how can we take the ball away from Daniel today?"
We've opened the year against the Titans on the road and then a good defense where we were outmatched for a lot of that game. But he threw the ball 34 times yesterday. Including some darts to nobody receivers that ended up being huge plays in the game.
On the play that won us the game, instead of throwing it away or just going down, he saw a lane and ran for the first down. Winning play. You'd think posters would be overjoyed with this. Nope.
Some of the lowest yards per passes thrown in the league. Are we really still doing this thing where we make every excuse in the book and ignore the overriding data? Because that's annoying and tiresome 24th in yards per pass thrown - ( New Window )
That ties him with Tom Brady and puts him ahead of guys like Joe Burrow. Any statistic that does that is flawed.
It's remarkable how well the defense is playing with the two primary pass rushers out and the issues at cornerback. If we're handing out compliments, the defense gets 99% of them. Hopefully Williams isn't bay injured, because the story of the season so far has been how well the d-line has played.
The offense has scored 40 points in two games, which over a long enough time frame portends to more losses than wins. There's not a lot to compliment the offense for having done. The offense is giving the defense no margin for error.
100%. The defense has been fantastic. In the modern era NFL, it can’t get much better actually.
The whole thing is synergistic of course. If we had Dan Marino back there, the pass rush becomes hesitant, the holes are there in the running game and WRs getting open for just a second result in a completion. The fact that the offense looks stuck in mud at times isn’t always directly because of Jones, but he is at the center of the situation and is at some level responsible.
I’ve listen to Coach Daboll and he doesn’t say what you’re saying, so guess what?……..I hit the delete button on you, not on the coach. He says Jones has done very well both games. I think he knows more than most, if not all of us, don’t you think?
And I know what your rebuttal is- “he has to say good things about his players, he’s the coach”…….oh really…..does he say those words about every player? Did he come out and say anyone on the OL has played very well from yesterday? Did he say that about any of the WRs? I don’t think Dabs throws out unwarranted compliments…you have to earn them.
My opinion is- of course Daniel was not perfect yesterday, but he’s learning, getting better (no turnovers down from 2), and he does make many clutch plays that help us win too. Go watch the 3rd and 4th quarter again of both games for my evidence.
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In comment 15823509 ryanmkeane said:
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NoGain - so you think Brian Daboll and Mik Kafka are going into the game saying "how can we take the ball away from Daniel today?"
We've opened the year against the Titans on the road and then a good defense where we were outmatched for a lot of that game. But he threw the ball 34 times yesterday. Including some darts to nobody receivers that ended up being huge plays in the game.
On the play that won us the game, instead of throwing it away or just going down, he saw a lane and ran for the first down. Winning play. You'd think posters would be overjoyed with this. Nope.
Some of the lowest yards per passes thrown in the league. Are we really still doing this thing where we make every excuse in the book and ignore the overriding data? Because that's annoying and tiresome 24th in yards per pass thrown - ( New Window )
That ties him with Tom Brady and puts him ahead of guys like Joe Burrow. Any statistic that does that is flawed.
Agree. Any stat that ranks Tua and Mac Jones ahead of Brady and Burrow is a joke. Each game is different including are they playing from behind (or well behind), do they have a running game, etc. Plus in defense of Jones very few teams have a player like Barkley running the ball.
Just sayin'
Last season....
He has made winning plays in the 4th Q on multiple drives to win us 2 games that we weren't as talented as the other team.
You think our defense over the last 19 games has been better than subpar? There are three guys on DEF (who are currently playing) that I would keep over others at their positions throughout the league: Jackson, McKinney, and Lawrence. No one else currently starting is anything more than JAG except maybe Love. And this DEF is a major step up from last season. Do you disagree?
100%. The defense has been fantastic. In the modern era NFL, it can’t get much better actually.
The pass protection and issues at WR don't seem like quickly resolved issues. There's not a bunch of talent waiting in the wings. I'm neutral to bearish on Jones. I think the entire offense outside of Thomas and Barkley is bleh.
But I think the Giants have the makings of a very good defense this year. They have two quality pass rushers ready to return. That's serious gas to add to this group.
It's remarkable how well the defense is playing with the two primary pass rushers out and the issues at cornerback. If we're handing out compliments, the defense gets 99% of them. Hopefully Williams isn't bay injured, because the story of the season so far has been how well the d-line has played.
The offense has scored 40 points in two games, which over a long enough time frame portends to more losses than wins. There's not a lot to compliment the offense for having done. The offense is giving the defense no margin for error.
they're currently 16th in ppg, so wouldn't that project out to being about .500 even if the defense regressed a little bit? they are 9th in points allowed so 'completely standing on its' head' seems hyperbolic. they let ten go right down the field for the potentially game winning kick and had it gone in they'd be 1-1 (which is probably what they realistically deserve to be). it's impressive coaching given the injuries but also a byproduct of some matchups that have played to their strengths stopping the run.
in terms of the offense i think everyone is missing the forrest from the trees. if 20ppg is the baseline even when the offense is scuffling with james/sills leading them in receiving, that may imply upside beyond most of what was predicted (and nobody predicted 2-0 so implying things have only played out as expected is also a distortion). that's not a point specific to jones but it is inclusive of him.
Just sayin'
The defense has averaged 16 points per game in his last seven starts, including two single digit efforts. That would be best in the league in the 2021 season. The offense has averaged 18.3 points per game, which would be about sixth worst.
They have a legitimate shot to win the division, but are going to need the offense to step up big time to do that
They won, so the QB did his job is always going to be the loud reply to the discourse that offense could be better.
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Subpar defense?
You think our defense over the last 19 games has been better than subpar? There are three guys on DEF (who are currently playing) that I would keep over others at their positions throughout the league: Jackson, McKinney, and Lawrence. No one else currently starting is anything more than JAG except maybe Love. And this DEF is a major step up from last season. Do you disagree?
I think the Giants defense has played fantastic the first two games, so I'm not sure how to judge the talent of individuals on the roster right now.
And I think it's a difficult exercise to try and make much out of how a team with a major facelift and a different staff compares year-over-year. So what Jones did in a sampling of games over that period doesn't seem super indicative of anything.
All I know is the defense played lights out the last two games and the offense didn't.
Just sayin'
I disagree so much with this. The defense has been excellent and has bailed out the offense numerous times. Worst OL in the league? Come on. Jones has one of the best left tackles in the NFL.
I want to see more of the quarterback that we saw on the touchdown drive when the game was about to get away from the Giants. That was a quarterback playing with confidence, that s whom I believe he can be, that s why I m a believer.
As to the negativity always found in game threads, to each their own. I choose to stay away.
There might be a poster somewhere that would rather be correct about Jones than see the Giants win, but have to believe that is not the case with the overwhelming majority of Daniel s detractors
Maybe it's the match-ups, so I'm not predicting anything.
But I think it's no exaggeration, in a new system, with the corners and pass rushers they've started, two be a top 10 defense at this early juncture is phenomenal.
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In comment 15823541 christian said:
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Subpar defense?
You think our defense over the last 19 games has been better than subpar? There are three guys on DEF (who are currently playing) that I would keep over others at their positions throughout the league: Jackson, McKinney, and Lawrence. No one else currently starting is anything more than JAG except maybe Love. And this DEF is a major step up from last season. Do you disagree?
I think the Giants defense has played fantastic the first two games, so I'm not sure how to judge the talent of individuals on the roster right now.
And I think it's a difficult exercise to try and make much out of how a team with a major facelift and a different staff compares year-over-year. So what Jones did in a sampling of games over that period doesn't seem super indicative of anything.
All I know is the defense played lights out the last two games and the offense didn't.
Christian, we are in agreement. The DEF has played very well, no argument here. I also agree that the O is struggling, but from my perspective (flawed as it is), I put much of the onus on the O'line and what Shep said about the WRs not on task with their reads. Sure, Jones has made some bad throws. All QBs do. I think he's playing well, and certainly within himself given the constraints around him.
I feel that you can't say in one breath that what the QB did over a period isn't indicative of anything unless you say the same about the DEF, no?
We're all happy the Giants won and the games have certainly (finally) been fun to watch, but IMO, the QB play has been not been good.
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and 10 and 9 in his last 19. With arguably the worst O'line in the league, injured playmakers galore, and a subpar defense.
Just sayin'
I disagree so much with this. The defense has been excellent and has bailed out the offense numerous times. Worst OL in the league? Come on. Jones has one of the best left tackles in the NFL.
Over the past 19 games, this defense has been mostly horrible. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
As for the LOT: You're going to seriously defend this Oline over the last 19 games because 1 position on the line is pro bowl worthy? Do we ignore the 4 other positions? The line was putrid last season. Downright putrid. It's been a mixed bag this year, and they've managed to win two games.
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The offense has scored 40 points in two games, which over a long enough time frame portends to more losses than wins. There's not a lot to compliment the offense for having done. The offense is giving the defense no margin for error.
100%. The defense has been fantastic. In the modern era NFL, it can’t get much better actually.
The pass protection and issues at WR don't seem like quickly resolved issues. There's not a bunch of talent waiting in the wings. I'm neutral to bearish on Jones. I think the entire offense outside of Thomas and Barkley is bleh.
But I think the Giants have the makings of a very good defense this year. They have two quality pass rushers ready to return. That's serious gas to add to this group.
Damn Christian. I'm agreeing with you again, WTH is going on here? lol. Only difference is I'm neutral to a little more than slightly bullish on DJ due to OL and WR, and scheme absorption. You could see DJ having to motion and reline WRs multiple times the first two games. The more on the same page they become the more fluid the offense will look (IMO). The interior needs to be better pass blocking and hopefully we see an uptick there.
It’s amazing you could compliment 99 of the 100 people in the organization but if you’re critical about Daniel Jones you’re a miserable moron who wants the Giants to lose.
You can be impressed with how Jones has played thus far that’s perfectly fine, some of us don’t have to be and can say we want to see better play from him.
Try not to edit this post.
Ha, ajr with a little funny at the end his comment about altering posts…
Ok, I give up. He's 10-9 in his last 19, 5-2 in his last 7, but they won in spite of him and all the other loses are ALL HIS FAULT.
Do I have the fucking group-think narrative and talking points down now?
This year is just a practice year anyway when we are sweating out all the Gettleman toxins. Maybe we win a few games along the way and make things a little interesting.
Its had to imagine that anyone who wants the Giants to be good would want Jones here past this year. There is almost zero chance to be really good with a Jones level QB. So we just suck it up this year, watch more robotic, low-octane, mistake-prone QB play and hopefully start with a guy who has more upside next year.
People seem to like Jones for reasons that have nothing to do with how he plays football. To each their own, I suppose, but I like my football players to be good at football.
(note, he was pretty good in high school and probably middle school)
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If you believe that, you are so lost in your own emotions that you should probably take a break from posting. That is an absolutely absurd belief.
You don’t know what people are thinking Mike….you can only base their thoughts on their words…Words speak louder than thoughts.
I don't believe people spend hour after hour on a message board pretending to be fans of a team they don't root for. That makes zero sense. What is actually happening is many are misinterpreting what is being said.
Thinking Daniel Jones is not a good QB IS NOT the same as rooting against the Giants. If you think it is, that is on you.
I've seen people saying bad things about Jones accused of having an "agenda." I don't think anyone's agenda's are very hidden here. People like myself were taken to task for having an axe to grind with DG and lord knows I had a big ax. But instead of an attitude around here like hey, maybe that was the right ax to have. There seems instead to be a strange undercurrent from many to prove that maybe DG wasn't so terrible.
And here we are with DJ. Mike in Ohio's post yesterday on that thread got me thinking. The Yankees this season were on a tear but still many people were on there talking about trades they needed to make, team weaknesses. Because that is more interesting to discuss. I saw little to no energy wasted telling those people they weren't "enjoying" the wins.
I'm enjoying these wins for sure, I'll be going to my first Giants games in years this year. That doesn't change the fact that I don't like watching Jones as my QB. For no other reason than he doesn't exude confidence. Not sure how many people play Tennis but when you are better than a player you are making them run, dictating the pace looking for your winners. When you are overmatched, you are playing safe and hoping your opponent messes up. Jones had one drive yesterday where he was dictating the pace, and I loved watching that. Sadly more often then not he plays he has no confidence in his ability to hit "winners" and is waiting for the defense to mess up. I do not enjoy watching that type of QB, I do not want to watch him be the Giants QB for years and years after that because I do not see that problem going away.
I like Schoen, I'm starting to love Daboll. I have tons of "positivity" and "negativity" in me ready to roll when the situations arise. I think the friction here comes from hard feelings of Giants fans that have been wrong year after year trying to tell us we were wrong to be down on the team, down on the leadership. They feel like DJ, they want him to take up the mantle of proving all us naysayers wrong.
But that's the difference in the naysayers and the homers. Some people like myself, really enjoy changing their opinion, especially when it is watching the team I love win. So the satisfaction you are aggressively looking for through some kind of grand admission that we were wrong about everything isn't coming. I don't think Jones is a playoff QB, I would be ecstatic if he proves me wrong but he won't. He's the same shaky QB overall even in wins and when his team is handing him easy field position starts. Good on him for coming up big in some of these situations, credit to his teammates, him and the coaches. That's the difference between the "positive" and "negative" people. The DG people dragged their own stinking corpses around threads attacking those with all the data backing up the points they were correctly asserting for years and still come back here with their predictable but totally out of place smug sense of pride. You need not drag me anywhere the day Jones proves he's a playoff QB, I will happily eat my crow. Just don't tell me I'm not being positive enough because I don't think I'm watching that QB especially when you refused to look at very obvious data that the team stunk.
Excellent post.