Not so long ago many here wanted to break the bank for Wilson. After 2 games, have your thoughts of breaking the bank and salary cap changed at all?
The details: Denver acquired QB Russell Wilson and a 2022 fourth-round pick in exchange for TE Noah Fant, DE Shelby Harris, QB Drew Lock, 2022 first-, second- and fifth-round picks and 2023 first- and second-round picks.... plus a five-year, $245 million contract extension with $165 million guaranteed,
Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.
Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.
So you'd give up who, Thibiodeaux and/or Neal for Wilson?
Full disclosure...I'm someone who argued that there was a good chance Wilson was on the decline so I thought trading for him would be dumb for a rebuilding ball club.
That said, I'm glad you aren't running the team. I would not trade Neal and KT for a 33-year old QB who isn't playing particularly well (and didn't last year either).
and the rest of this NYG roster, thanks to years of terrible management, was in no shape whatsoever to make that situation work.
Even if this were to work out for Denver (which looks suspect in the early going), that wouldn't have made it wise for NYG.
If Schoen nails his next QB pick its a moot point but until that happens we are going to be hoping for a QB every year until we have one. Thibs/Neal etc won't matter much if we don't have a QB. So i'll certainly "trust the process" but a lot needs to go right with that strategy as well.
LOL.
The offense must change for that to occur.
Wilson is at his best when he has a strong running game.
This is necessary for him to go play action and to maximize his talents.
Wilson has shown that he is one of the best long ball throwers, but he needs to bring the safeties close to the line to open up the field.
He is not consistently accurate on the short, medium passes and extending drives, which he is being forced to do.
The Giants are so fortunate that they did not acquire Wilson as Denver did. If Wilson does not pan out he will be an albatross around the Broncos neck for years to come.
If Jones does not pan out this season the Giants will likely draft their future QB a young player who can grow with the team.
Way too early to write Wilson's obit.
So, yes, I would still seriously kick the tires.
And let's not act like Thibodeaux has done anything yet. Neal is okay, but no one is confusing him with Christian Wirfs yet.
How good was the 1986 Giants offense after 2 months?
We insist on formulating concrete blanket labels every week but really all that matters now is wins and losses. Contenders will rise to the top and pretenders will be exposed but for right now all that matters is staying afloat and win as many games as you can. Denver won. Ugly. And no one will care in December how (if) they get to 11-6.
Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
Remember when the Giants improved second half of 2018? Yea me neither. When you go 2-7 no one cares that you played well second half. When you go 5-3---you win playoff games when you improve.
Long season. So much will change but the wins and losses from the first remain.
Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.
Last 2 weeks < last ten years.
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Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.
Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.
Last 2 weeks < last ten years.
Is Kirk Cousins a top QB? There needs to be levels here. Are you putting Wilson with Allen, Rodgers and Mahomes? Not to mention other guys like Brady, Herbert, Burrow, Watson (at least years ago?), Stafford.
Keep in mind Wilson hasn't won a playoff game when his defense gives up a TD since 2014.
He's a pretty polarizing player, I don't think anyone's mind will change on him until he fades away from the league or goes on another title run.
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they’d be 2-0 if they didn’t have 2 fumbles inside the 5, a dropped TD and a botched final drive because of HC incompetence. Wilson is certainly starting slow but I expect him to settle in soon.
Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.
So you'd give up who, Thibiodeaux and/or Neal for Wilson?
And Robinson (2nd round), Belton and McFadden (selected with picks from trading second rounder twice), and Feliciano and Glowinski, and just about anyone else they signed as a free agent, and picks next year. And then what other players?
Do you think Denver can't spend money now? Go take a look at their cap structure the next few years and compare it to the likely growth of the cap.
Made no sense then, makes no sense now. Don't care how he plays in Denver-good or bad.
Got it.
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In comment 15823137 Toth029 said:
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Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.
Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.
Last 2 weeks < last ten years.
Is Kirk Cousins a top QB? There needs to be levels here. Are you putting Wilson with Allen, Rodgers and Mahomes? Not to mention other guys like Brady, Herbert, Burrow, Watson (at least years ago?), Stafford.
Keep in mind Wilson hasn't won a playoff game when his defense gives up a TD since 2014.
I never said anything about Cousins, lol. We're talking Wilson. The last 10 or so he's been an elite player. I don't get into that crap of tiers or who's better. The guy was one of the best offensive players on one of the better offensive teams. I keep it simple. He elevates players around him. He helped Tyler Lockett (who is a good player) put up pro bowl numbers. He won a lot more than he lost.
Cousins is underrated by many but he's not Russel WIlson.
Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?
I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.
Sure, he will pull a rabbit out of his hat a handful of times each game, but he is not someone I would be building my franchise around anymore.
If he is the final piece of the puzzle...fine. But on a rebuilding team it would of been a silly move. For a team with the Giants salary cap issues it would of been moronic.
Do you think Denver can't spend money now? Go take a look at their cap structure the next few years and compare it to the likely growth of the cap.
Wouldn't have been similar? How do you know? It certainly would have been two firsts and two seconds, plus more. Denver's first this year was number 9, so giving them 7 wouldn't have change the rest too much.
Wilson's cap hit this year is $17 million. Where were the Giants going to get that money? Remember when Schoen came in he said they had to clear $40 million in cap space. Imagine if it had been $57 million. They had to cut Bradberry and restructure Williams just to make the minor moves they made. Next year it's $22 million, reasonable but still too high on a rebuilding team. The year after - $34.5 million, when he's 35. From 2025 on it's over $50 million. So cut him in 2025 and you're dealing with a lot of dead money.
If he is the final piece of the puzzle...fine. But on a rebuilding team it would of been a silly move. For a team with the Giants salary cap issues it would of been moronic.
I think you are seeing glimpses of how short a rebuild can be if you have good coaching and difference makers. We are lacking in the later but there’s no reason a team needs 3-5 years to build a contender, it can happen quick.
Out cap issues aren’t long term, unless Schoen pulls a Gettelman.
But some people hate losing an argument.
But some people hate losing an argument.
Sure. Can we revisit this issue in week 12?
Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?
I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.
Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?
New hotness: "Russ is cooked"
But some people hate losing an argument.
There isn't a loser in this right now, that's the point. Its been 2 games and you of all people should know that (and talk about it on other Giants related threads today).
It sounds like you really want to be right and aren't waiting for the season to play out.
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we are arguing about this given the way Wilson has played.
But some people hate losing an argument.
There isn't a loser in this right now, that's the point. Its been 2 games and you of all people should know that (and talk about it on other Giants related threads today).
It sounds like you really want to be right and aren't waiting for the season to play out.
Seems some folks have never heard the term "small sample size".
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Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.
Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.
Last 2 weeks < last ten years.
Always been a big Wilson fan. He probably isn’t top 6. But I would put him probably between 7-10
I do think the contract extension was a yr too early
Would rather see how he played this yr. Think he has two more yrs after this one.
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...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.
Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?
I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.
Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?
Why wouldn't I? Of course I would.
Wilson has been great his entire career. You are going to crow after two games? He's a Hall of Fame talent.
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In comment 15823316 sb from NYT Forum said:
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...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.
Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?
I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.
Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?
Why wouldn't I? Of course I would.
sweet.. I bet after an adjustment period Wilson will continue playing at a top-8 level.
What's ironic about this is that Denver's roster isn't all that better than Seattle's.
they would have come to love it. He's a hall of fame talent and probably more talented than any QB in Giants history.
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if the Giants had done that trade, every single fan would have hated it right rightly so
they would have come to love it. He's a hall of fame talent and probably more talented than any QB in Giants history.
Your Saying Russell is better than YA Tittle?
What's ironic about this is that Denver's roster isn't all that better than Seattle's.
Much better run game, better defense. It’ll take him a bit to sync with the WRs and will now be without Jeudy for a while it looks like. But I’ll give this another month atleast.
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In comment 15823458 ryanmkeane said:
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if the Giants had done that trade, every single fan would have hated it right rightly so
they would have come to love it. He's a hall of fame talent and probably more talented than any QB in Giants history.
Your Saying Russell is better than YA Tittle?
I didn't see Tittle play. But yes, I'm probably going to say Wilson is better than Tittle.
Yes we are, I know I am. It’s a no brainer if it’s just Wilson Vs Jones, it’s a conundrum when factoring costs.
Considering Denver should be 2-0 right now, and likely 0-2 with Locke I can say they made the right move. I would have traded for him if the package was reasonable.
Apparently the coach yesterday was again bumbling the clock, he appears in over his head right now. Of course, that will probably change but that team is in a tough division.
SD and KC aren't going to be held in the teens in their matchups so DEN needs to get their act together.
Schoen didn't like the costs so it would have had to be lighter? That makes no sense. You think Seattle would have taken less to send him to the Giants? Also don't think they would have given up No. 5, so the first round pick would have been 7, two spots higher than Denver's, not a lot of difference to Seattle. It most certainly would have been two firsts and two seconds to start. To start.
Of course. We can do both. Btw, it's not at all clear the cost would have been both #5 and #7 in 2022.
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Well Schoen didn’t like the cost, apparently, so it would have had to have been lighter. We also had higher picks that were worth more.
Schoen didn't like the costs so it would have had to be lighter? That makes no sense. You think Seattle would have taken less to send him to the Giants? Also don't think they would have given up No. 5, so the first round pick would have been 7, two spots higher than Denver's, not a lot of difference to Seattle. It most certainly would have been two firsts and two seconds to start. To start.
How does it not make sense? If Schoen isn't paying that price then hard stop - we aren't (and didn't pay it). But our picks in 2022 were worth more, how much weight that holds, I have no idea, but probably a decent amount.
Its splitting hairs now though. I'd probably do it and understand why we didn't. I'm not beating a drum that we missed out on some can't miss opportunity and don't mind one bit if I end up being wrong on it. But asking this question after week 2 when the team that traded for him should be 2-0 is pretty funny.
HAckett looks alarmingly bad.
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Better, can we review after the next three years... see how Wilson plays when he is 33, 34, and 35. And compare to Neal and KT.
Of course. We can do both. Btw, it's not at all clear the cost would have been both #5 and #7 in 2022.
Of course it probably wouldn't have been 5 and 7, but it would have been one of them and a 2 this year, and next year's 1 and 2 - to start with. That's four premium picks to start with for a steam trying to rebuild. Now add in a few more picks, a couple of players (we didn't have much to offer, so imagine Love and/or Robinson?) and then find an additional $17 million in cap space.
Some folks have never understood the word "cost."
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In comment 15823589 Eric from BBI said:
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Better, can we review after the next three years... see how Wilson plays when he is 33, 34, and 35. And compare to Neal and KT.
Of course. We can do both. Btw, it's not at all clear the cost would have been both #5 and #7 in 2022.
Of course it probably wouldn't have been 5 and 7, but it would have been one of them and a 2 this year, and next year's 1 and 2 - to start with. That's four premium picks to start with for a steam trying to rebuild. Now add in a few more picks, a couple of players (we didn't have much to offer, so imagine Love and/or Robinson?) and then find an additional $17 million in cap space.
Some folks have never understood the word "cost."
I agree it's a high cost, but you're getting a HOF qb. And cap space is never a reason not to add a franchise qb, it's just an excuse. Cash over cap permits you to add an expensive QB even if you're up against the cap.
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If the Broncos thought he was the missing piece for them to win a SB this year then sure, it was a good deal. If they thought Wilson was going to do the same thing Peyton did they made a huge mistake, Wilson is not in the same calls as Peyton!
Wilson has been great his entire career. You are going to crow after two games? He's a Hall of Fame talent.
When will the argument that QBs are the entire team die. That Broncos team was stacked that Peyton’s corpse won a SB with. Lots of QBs around the league would probably win a title with them (shit Teddy would have had an outside shot). Problem was they were starting Brock Osweiller who was famously dealt WITH money to get rid of his contract and other bums.
Here, here..
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I don't particularly like Russell Wilson and he certainly needs to step up. But to me the key takewaway from the Broncos is how utterly clueless their HC is.
HAckett looks alarmingly bad.
Yes, right now, the coach is getting about 95% of the vitriol from the fans. They are ready to run him out of town...they sent their PR team on the field yesterday...minus a PR. They were so bad at getting plays in that the fans were counting down the last 10 seconds of the 40 second clock to prevent any more delay of game's. Gotta say....kinda fun to sit back and watch some OTHER team fall apart!!!!!:)
My thought on Wilson, one I have broadcast to some of my friends who are Bronco fans...I cant get over the fact that we, the Giants, as crappy as we were, beat that Seattle team with Wilson at QB. And this was with McCoy at QB! The few times I saw him play the past few years, he looked....OK to good. And you dont give up that package for OK to good.
Surprisingly, Carroll revealed that part of the Seattle’s defensive game plan was to ensure that Wilson did not remain the pocket, and was forced to his left.
“When he [Wilson] moves to his left, it’s hard for him numbers-wise and all that, so we just we were able to do some stuff,” Carroll said, per Seattle Sports 710AM. “It wasn’t perfect at all, but it was effective and we felt like we were controlling it. It wasn’t always just getting clean to get the sack, it was to try and make him go where we wanted him to go, and guys did a good job.”
This is a really strong quote from Carroll imo. He knows more than anyone what Wilson's faults are and him putting this out in the open so nonchalantly was surprising.
If Denver doesn't inexplicably cough-up the ball within the five-yard line twice, Carroll's comments carry even less weight.
This could an intricate, long-term trolling of former franchise QB Russell Wilson, or it could be desperation in the face of offensive struggles in the young season. “After two weeks of watching Geno play, we don’t need to hold him back at all,” Carroll said Monday. “Geno has got his game ready to go. We need to trust him and maybe give him more opportunities and stuff. We’ve been pretty solidly conservative, counting on running the football.”
This is why I don't trust Carroll's word for very much.