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Russel Wilson

River Mike : 9/19/2022 10:02 am
Not so long ago many here wanted to break the bank for Wilson. After 2 games, have your thoughts of breaking the bank and salary cap changed at all?
The details: Denver acquired QB Russell Wilson and a 2022 fourth-round pick in exchange for TE Noah Fant, DE Shelby Harris, QB Drew Lock, 2022 first-, second- and fifth-round picks and 2023 first- and second-round picks.... plus a five-year, $245 million contract extension with $165 million guaranteed,
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Too early and  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 10:07 am : link
they’d be 2-0 if they didn’t have 2 fumbles inside the 5, a dropped TD and a botched final drive because of HC incompetence. Wilson is certainly starting slow but I expect him to settle in soon.

Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.
it's not all Wilson,  
Fat Wally : 9/19/2022 10:07 am : link
Hackett looks like he's in way over his head. He won't last long with that price tag on Wilson and that team being built to win now.
RE: Too early and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/19/2022 10:14 am : link
In comment 15823046 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
they’d be 2-0 if they didn’t have 2 fumbles inside the 5, a dropped TD and a botched final drive because of HC incompetence. Wilson is certainly starting slow but I expect him to settle in soon.

Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.


So you'd give up who, Thibiodeaux and/or Neal for Wilson?
yes  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 10:16 am : link
.
RE: yes  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/19/2022 10:18 am : link
In comment 15823072 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
.


Full disclosure...I'm someone who argued that there was a good chance Wilson was on the decline so I thought trading for him would be dumb for a rebuilding ball club.

That said, I'm glad you aren't running the team. I would not trade Neal and KT for a 33-year old QB who isn't playing particularly well (and didn't last year either).
this was never a good idea for NYG  
bigbluehoya : 9/19/2022 10:21 am : link
The circumstances in which it's advisable to give up a boat load of current and future draft capital (and/or young players under contract) for a QB making very top-of-market money on the wrong side of 30 years old are extremely limited...

and the rest of this NYG roster, thanks to years of terrible management, was in no shape whatsoever to make that situation work.

Even if this were to work out for Denver (which looks suspect in the early going), that wouldn't have made it wise for NYG.
a pretty high price  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/19/2022 10:22 am : link
it would have crippled the Giants
Denver has had a rough start  
Jerry in_DC : 9/19/2022 10:25 am : link
Offense and coaching. I still think it was a good move for them and they'll figure out the offense. But I still think it would've been a real bad move for the Giants - we weren't close to the right place for that kind of move
you didnt know Wilson broke his hand last year  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 10:28 am : link
and came back from the 6-8 week timetable about a month early. You said he had a down year despite scoring almost 30 TD's missing 4+ games and likely on his way to a 40 TD season if he didn't have the hand break. If that's a decline I'll take that on the Giants.

If Schoen nails his next QB pick its a moot point but until that happens we are going to be hoping for a QB every year until we have one. Thibs/Neal etc won't matter much if we don't have a QB. So i'll certainly "trust the process" but a lot needs to go right with that strategy as well.
It's early still, but after 2 weeks  
ZogZerg : 9/19/2022 10:29 am : link
DJ is doing much better than Wilson.

LOL.
Wilson  
Archer : 9/19/2022 10:31 am : link
I can't imagine that Wilson will continue to play as poorly as he has
The offense must change for that to occur.

Wilson is at his best when he has a strong running game.
This is necessary for him to go play action and to maximize his talents.

Wilson has shown that he is one of the best long ball throwers, but he needs to bring the safeties close to the line to open up the field.

He is not consistently accurate on the short, medium passes and extending drives, which he is being forced to do.

The Giants are so fortunate that they did not acquire Wilson as Denver did. If Wilson does not pan out he will be an albatross around the Broncos neck for years to come.

If Jones does not pan out this season the Giants will likely draft their future QB a young player who can grow with the team.
It's two games...  
bw in dc : 9/19/2022 10:32 am : link
on a new team with a first time HC.

Way too early to write Wilson's obit.

So, yes, I would still seriously kick the tires.

And let's not act like Thibodeaux has done anything yet. Neal is okay, but no one is confusing him with Christian Wirfs yet.
it's early  
djm : 9/19/2022 10:33 am : link
teams that find ways to win now can always improve as the season progresses, NYG included and yes, Denver included.

How good was the 1986 Giants offense after 2 months?

We insist on formulating concrete blanket labels every week but really all that matters now is wins and losses. Contenders will rise to the top and pretenders will be exposed but for right now all that matters is staying afloat and win as many games as you can. Denver won. Ugly. And no one will care in December how (if) they get to 11-6.
He  
Toth029 : 9/19/2022 10:33 am : link
Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.

Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.
even the Giants  
djm : 9/19/2022 10:36 am : link
why everyone feels so desperate to write and seal the book on Daniel Jones and the offense...it's week 2! Just win. Figure shit out as you go--shore up the weak spots...get and keep guys healthy and improve.

Remember when the Giants improved second half of 2018? Yea me neither. When you go 2-7 no one cares that you played well second half. When you go 5-3---you win playoff games when you improve.

Long season. So much will change but the wins and losses from the first remain.
RE: He  
djm : 9/19/2022 10:37 am : link
In comment 15823137 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.

Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.


Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.

Last 2 weeks < last ten years.
RE: RE: He  
Toth029 : 9/19/2022 10:44 am : link
In comment 15823155 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15823137 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.

Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.



Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.

Last 2 weeks < last ten years.


Is Kirk Cousins a top QB? There needs to be levels here. Are you putting Wilson with Allen, Rodgers and Mahomes? Not to mention other guys like Brady, Herbert, Burrow, Watson (at least years ago?), Stafford.

Keep in mind Wilson hasn't won a playoff game when his defense gives up a TD since 2014.
for the record i'm not mad we didn't do it  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 10:45 am : link
both strategies have merit and support whatever Schoen approves of. Looks like he was interested in finding out what it would cost, which i'm glad he took a look at. Ultimately I understand why its too rich of a price (if Wilson would even play here) so i'm good with it.
Toth  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 10:50 am : link
IMO he's masked all the issues with the Seahawks. Those have been 6/7 win non-playoff teams without him the last few years. He had them finishing way above their level.

He's a pretty polarizing player, I don't think anyone's mind will change on him until he fades away from the league or goes on another title run.
RE: RE: Too early and  
k2tampa : 9/19/2022 11:02 am : link
In comment 15823066 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15823046 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


they’d be 2-0 if they didn’t have 2 fumbles inside the 5, a dropped TD and a botched final drive because of HC incompetence. Wilson is certainly starting slow but I expect him to settle in soon.

Would I do it? Yes because this D is playing really good football and I would feel good about or playoff chances with Wilson instead of DJ.



So you'd give up who, Thibiodeaux and/or Neal for Wilson?


And Robinson (2nd round), Belton and McFadden (selected with picks from trading second rounder twice), and Feliciano and Glowinski, and just about anyone else they signed as a free agent, and picks next year. And then what other players?
it wouldn't have been the same trade package  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 11:07 am : link
and the FA's we signed weren't expensive, we'd be able to afford both because Wilson's deal would be structured to allow us to still spend money. Those guys aren't the future anyway.

Do you think Denver can't spend money now? Go take a look at their cap structure the next few years and compare it to the likely growth of the cap.
Nope-not for the Giants at least.  
map7711 : 9/19/2022 11:07 am : link
You're not paying him for the last 10 years You're paying him for now and beyond. Maybe being on the wrong side of 30 will affect his game. Maybe. That has to factor in. Plus the Giants are not the place for a 33 year old QB. Salary cap issues especially. You want a 33 year old QB to be throwing it to Sills, James, Hudson, Bellinger etc??? Come on. And w his salary, you may even have to cut some from the offensive just to fit him in. Then just throw in the fact that they're starting a rookie RT, and three interior lineman that have shown they are not the greatest trio out there.
Made no sense then, makes no sense now. Don't care how he plays in Denver-good or bad.
Wilson is cooked like a Madden Turducken  
MartyNJ1969 : 9/19/2022 11:19 am : link
he is done.
So we can't judge Daniel Jones into his 4th season  
Producer : 9/19/2022 11:20 am : link
but we can make hot takes about Wilson after 2 games.

Got it.
Denver hosts the 49ers  
Jerry in_DC : 9/19/2022 11:26 am : link
next Sunday night. There will be a lot of eyes on that one. That's going to be a good game and an important one for Wilson and the coaching staff
RE: RE: RE: He  
djm : 9/19/2022 11:33 am : link
In comment 15823174 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 15823155 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15823137 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.

Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.



Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.

Last 2 weeks < last ten years.



Is Kirk Cousins a top QB? There needs to be levels here. Are you putting Wilson with Allen, Rodgers and Mahomes? Not to mention other guys like Brady, Herbert, Burrow, Watson (at least years ago?), Stafford.

Keep in mind Wilson hasn't won a playoff game when his defense gives up a TD since 2014.


I never said anything about Cousins, lol. We're talking Wilson. The last 10 or so he's been an elite player. I don't get into that crap of tiers or who's better. The guy was one of the best offensive players on one of the better offensive teams. I keep it simple. He elevates players around him. He helped Tyler Lockett (who is a good player) put up pro bowl numbers. He won a lot more than he lost.

Cousins is underrated by many but he's not Russel WIlson.
His small physique caught up with him  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/19/2022 11:35 am : link
...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.

Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?

I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.
Has to move to get throwing lanes because he's so short  
BigBlue7 : 9/19/2022 11:35 am : link
and it's clear that he doesn't (can) run as much as he used to.

Sure, he will pull a rabbit out of his hat a handful of times each game, but he is not someone I would be building my franchise around anymore.
Never understood the love  
AnnapolisMike : 9/19/2022 11:37 am : link
for an aging Wilson.

If he is the final piece of the puzzle...fine. But on a rebuilding team it would of been a silly move. For a team with the Giants salary cap issues it would of been moronic.
RE: it wouldn't have been the same trade package  
k2tampa : 9/19/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15823257 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and the FA's we signed weren't expensive, we'd be able to afford both because Wilson's deal would be structured to allow us to still spend money. Those guys aren't the future anyway.

Do you think Denver can't spend money now? Go take a look at their cap structure the next few years and compare it to the likely growth of the cap.


Wouldn't have been similar? How do you know? It certainly would have been two firsts and two seconds, plus more. Denver's first this year was number 9, so giving them 7 wouldn't have change the rest too much.

Wilson's cap hit this year is $17 million. Where were the Giants going to get that money? Remember when Schoen came in he said they had to clear $40 million in cap space. Imagine if it had been $57 million. They had to cut Bradberry and restructure Williams just to make the minor moves they made. Next year it's $22 million, reasonable but still too high on a rebuilding team. The year after - $34.5 million, when he's 35. From 2025 on it's over $50 million. So cut him in 2025 and you're dealing with a lot of dead money.
RE: Never understood the love  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 11:41 am : link
In comment 15823320 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
for an aging Wilson.

If he is the final piece of the puzzle...fine. But on a rebuilding team it would of been a silly move. For a team with the Giants salary cap issues it would of been moronic.


I think you are seeing glimpses of how short a rebuild can be if you have good coaching and difference makers. We are lacking in the later but there’s no reason a team needs 3-5 years to build a contender, it can happen quick.

Out cap issues aren’t long term, unless Schoen pulls a Gettelman.
K2tampa  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 11:43 am : link
Well Schoen didn’t like the cost, apparently, so it would have had to have been lighter. We also had higher picks that were worth more.
I can't believe  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/19/2022 11:48 am : link
we are arguing about this given the way Wilson has played.

But some people hate losing an argument.
RE: I can't believe  
Producer : 9/19/2022 11:51 am : link
In comment 15823338 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
we are arguing about this given the way Wilson has played.

But some people hate losing an argument.


Sure. Can we revisit this issue in week 12?
RE: His small physique caught up with him  
Producer : 9/19/2022 11:56 am : link
In comment 15823316 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.

Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?

I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.


Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?
Old and busted:  
Ron Johnson : 9/19/2022 11:57 am : link
"Let Russ cook"

New hotness: "Russ is cooked"
His performance  
Pork Chop : 9/19/2022 12:01 pm : link
so far is the best argument for playing starters in the pre-season. It's his first live reps on a new team with new coaches...bound to be some growing pains.
RE: I can't believe  
UConn4523 : 9/19/2022 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15823338 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
we are arguing about this given the way Wilson has played.

But some people hate losing an argument.


There isn't a loser in this right now, that's the point. Its been 2 games and you of all people should know that (and talk about it on other Giants related threads today).

It sounds like you really want to be right and aren't waiting for the season to play out.
RE: RE: I can't believe  
Producer : 9/19/2022 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15823384 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15823338 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


we are arguing about this given the way Wilson has played.

But some people hate losing an argument.



There isn't a loser in this right now, that's the point. Its been 2 games and you of all people should know that (and talk about it on other Giants related threads today).

It sounds like you really want to be right and aren't waiting for the season to play out.


Seems some folks have never heard the term "small sample size".
RE: RE: He  
Payasdaddy : 9/19/2022 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15823155 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15823137 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Is getting paid like a top tier QB and he isn't one.

Not the type of move Schoen was to make and would have made, if we knew how he was choreographing everything so far.



Every metric from the last 10 years or so says Wilson is a top tier QB.

Last 2 weeks < last ten years.


Always been a big Wilson fan. He probably isn’t top 6. But I would put him probably between 7-10
I do think the contract extension was a yr too early
Would rather see how he played this yr. Think he has two more yrs after this one.
RE: RE: His small physique caught up with him  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/19/2022 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15823353 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15823316 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.

Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?

I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.



Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?


Why wouldn't I? Of course I would.
Wilson pulled off the greates heist since the Lufthansa robbery!  
Jack Stroud : 9/19/2022 12:20 pm : link
If the Broncos thought he was the missing piece for them to win a SB this year then sure, it was a good deal. If they thought Wilson was going to do the same thing Peyton did they made a huge mistake, Wilson is not in the same calls as Peyton!
RE: Wilson pulled off the greates heist since the Lufthansa robbery!  
Producer : 9/19/2022 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15823412 Jack Stroud said:
Quote:
If the Broncos thought he was the missing piece for them to win a SB this year then sure, it was a good deal. If they thought Wilson was going to do the same thing Peyton did they made a huge mistake, Wilson is not in the same calls as Peyton!


Wilson has been great his entire career. You are going to crow after two games? He's a Hall of Fame talent.
RE: RE: RE: His small physique caught up with him  
Producer : 9/19/2022 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15823411 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 15823353 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15823316 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


...For the past three years he's really fallen off in the second half of the season.

Yes he had a finger issue last year, but what's the excuse for 2019 and 2020?

I fully expect Denver to suck for a decade after that move.



Then you won't mind if we discuss this issue later in the season, right? If Wilson plays well later in the year, back to his HOF level, you'll admit you were wrong. Right?



Why wouldn't I? Of course I would.


sweet.. I bet after an adjustment period Wilson will continue playing at a top-8 level.
.  
widmerseyebrow : 9/19/2022 12:26 pm : link
I was in favor of it and certainly could be wrong  
bceagle05 : 9/19/2022 12:37 pm : link
but my biggest issue with those threads were people bringing up trades from 60 years ago as justification for not doing it. You can always find cautionary tales when a franchise has been around for a century.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/19/2022 12:38 pm : link
Wilson belongs on a super bowl contending team that basically only has 1 need: veteran clutch QB who is still good. He basically has 2 years left I'd imagine.

What's ironic about this is that Denver's roster isn't all that better than Seattle's.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/19/2022 12:38 pm : link
if the Giants had done that trade, every single fan would have hated it right rightly so
RE: ...  
Producer : 9/19/2022 12:40 pm : link
In comment 15823458 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
if the Giants had done that trade, every single fan would have hated it right rightly so


they would have come to love it. He's a hall of fame talent and probably more talented than any QB in Giants history.
RE: RE: ...  
MartyNJ1969 : 9/19/2022 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15823461 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15823458 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


if the Giants had done that trade, every single fan would have hated it right rightly so



they would have come to love it. He's a hall of fame talent and probably more talented than any QB in Giants history.


Your Saying Russell is better than YA Tittle?

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