Dan Jones, my take

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

They were more than enough times where he didn’t have shit to throw to. But he took care of the ball.

Points 2 & 3 are quite concerning.

He lacks fab savvy imo

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly.

What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL.

This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

In comment 15824609 Dave said:

Quote:

He lacks fb savvy imo

I think your spot on.

Jalen Hurts? DJ is the worst QB in the worst division in football the past 4 years. Let that sink in.

here is my non existent Xs & Os retort:

1) I think Jones can make almost any throw you want out of your QB1

**You don't have to think - he can make any throw well. He doesn't have Allen's power or Rodgers release, but his arm is plenty good and better than Eli's

2) My issue with him is I do not think his processing speed during a play is good enough to make him an elite QB in this league

** I honestly do not know what that means despite it being throw around here like insults. What I do think is that he lacks confidence in what he sees or the routes that his WRs are running and is slow to make the throw unless perfectly open. Is it two years of being beaten up by the previous coaching staff about protecting the ball? Was this an issue season #1? He did have INT issues, but most rookies do. And add in what Shepard and the staff said after last week - WRs are not making the correct pre-snap reads. On the other hand, perhaps you and others are correct - the game has never slowed down for him.

3) I do not think he sees the field, which is similar to point 2 above.

**this is another way of saying what you said in #2

4) Jones is not throwing to a great set of WR's (might be one of the 5 worst WR groups in the league)

** Somewhat true, however, I think it is more that he only has a confident rapport with Shep, Sills, and James. He seems to like Bellinger too. Clearly Daboll/Kafka have issues with WRs not making correct reads pre-snap - they said it out loud. So if the QB gets set to throw and the WR goes the wrong way he cannot pull the trigger.

5) The OL has not proven they can pass protect, which limits the ability for Kafka/Dabboll to design longer developing plays

** Correct. Young line and still gelling - it will be ugly at times.

6)I could see him having a Fitzmagic/Kirk Cousins type of career, but not much more. Not all pro, but even all-star but can wow you some weeks but will never get you over the hump to be a great team.

**I do not think he will be here next year. He is not Daboll/Schoen's QB. Not sure where he will be next season, but he is mediocre at best at this point in his career.

I do want to see what happens as the year progresses. Once the WRs get proficient at their reads, will Jones get it out faster? Remember how Eli and VC could look at each other and know exactly what the other was thinking? Peyton had that with Reggie Wayne.
The excuses are long, but for whatever reason DJ is just not getting it done consistently.

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season.

We shall see.

gotta have a take

And nothing has changed

In comment 15824630 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me. Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season. We shall see.

There is also a lot of guessing here. The media talks about guys open and people eat it up because of their own biases, but we don’t know what play was called. Is Jones not seeing a guy because he is not expected to be in that location even if the receiver is ultimately open? Should Jones have expected that and WR was making correct read but Jones got it wrong? Our interior OL also needs to clean up the immediate pressure up the middle. Even if the metrics say Jones has the time, if he is immediately having to move to one side because of pressure up the gut that takes away one side of the scheme unless you want him throwing across his body.

Doesn’t have a primary number 1 target. Barkley is his biggest threat.

The O Line is still jelling.

I’ll just compare with Eli and what he had in year 4.

1. Same head coach
2. Same offense
3. Skill players: Toomer, Barber, Shockey, Burress

Manning eventually knew where he was throwing the ball pre snap. Jones may get there but he will need to be in the same scheme for a couple of years first. And if he can get targets he can trust, even better.

Good posts. Even if someone does not agree with their views, those views should be at least considered.

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

I agree with you Robbie, which is what makes evaluating him so difficult.

On the play with Toney, he was open, and the camera caught Toney on the sideline saying he was open, that was the biggest miss I saw from him this past weekend.

In comment 15824613 BigBlueJ said:

Quote:

Jalen Hurts? DJ is the worst QB in the worst division in football the past 4 years. Let that sink in.

Hurts had all day, literally, to throw and his receivers were wide open all night.

Both points run counter to what Jones is experiencing.

For the season or until he gets hurt which is likely. Why not wait until season’s end to evaluate. Also, finding a better one isn’t so easy. Many teams spend a decade trying to find a QB.

some Dan's just need to be Daniel. Dan Jones? Sounds weird.

No one called Daniel LaRusso "Dan" did they? it just sounds weird too.

So, your take is bad because you called him Dan.

In comment 15824632 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

gotta have a take

LOL - everybody's an expert. I'm sure Aaron Rodgers didn't forgot how to process last week. It happens. When your team is being outplayed, the QB play looks suspicious. Doesn't matter who it is.

Jones has looked sharp at times (Wash game last year). He does have it, well see if he can somehow get it back. May be tough with this set of guards/center (and now receivers)), but I bet they control one of our opponents DLine and Jones looks all world this year. Then we can hear about all of the processing, etc.

Right now he is winning close games, which is one checkmark off the QB list.

he needs to take the bull by the horns and elevate others around him. Thus far this year he has not done so. He's avoided making mistakes that cost the team two games with razor thin margins. But the excuses are out the window. I don't think Daboll will be reluctant to pull the plug at some point this year if he doesn't step it up.

Is going to knock the Giants out of the top to the draft QB sweepstakes. In that case I don't think they move on from DJ just to make a change and they use that pick to fill other roster holes.

and NONE of the intangibles. Great size, attitude, good arm, fast, works hard. But he is not a good QB. Zero pocket awareness, holds the ball too long, does not see the field. The ball NEVER comes out on time. He is always late in red zone where windows are tight . Holding the ball too long make your OL and WR look bad.

I'm sure Daboll and Schoen have already seen enough of Daniel Jones. He will be replaced ASAP.

at this point. How much weight/blame you put on poor coaching and weak supporting cast around him is not an unfair point but it is also subjective, at least to some degree, and also losing its steam.

But it is still Year 4 of him starting games, so something's got to click soon in his head when surveying the field or it never will...

At this time of his playing QB,your assessment of his skill level is probably correct..But my opinion is this..WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE GREAT THROWS AND PROCESSING HE WAS MAKING HIS ROOKIE YEAR??
I'M LEAVING OUT THE FUMBLES AND INT's,because those can be corrected..You ALL NICKNAMED HIM DANNY DIMES
for a reason..This kid has sucked because his coaching staff belongs in division 2 college coaching..This kid sucks because the O Lineman suck..The O Lineman were sucking wind when Eli was the QB..I don't care one way or the other if he's here next year or not..But let's put the BLAME for his inability to play like he did his rookie year where it belongs..The coaching staff,and the GM,for not getting the players here to make whoever is the QB play well...

I agree with posts above. The OL is not there yet, they should get better and the WRs are wat they are, a below average group. There have also been mentions of wrong routes.

From what I understand about the system is that there are not defined routes, players get to improvise a bit and the QB and WR have to be on the same page. Its going to take a bit of time to truly get there.

Despite all that we are 2-0. Jones has made some plays when we needed it. He's had 2 clearly bad throws, 1 was an INT and the other should have been but stuff like that happens for all QBs. He's probably never going to be an all pro but I think he can be a good QB. Overall our talent level isnt great especially at WR. Sills is getting significant playing time (67 of 73 possible snaps), which doesnt reflect well on the talent. Golladay is a flat out bust. Toney has talent but he had a bad game. Robinson is a question mark, he may have showed in camp but I havent seen anything in the limited time we saw him and his 1st catch he was injured.

if he could make all the throws, he would be better statistically and the offense would not have been so limited for going on 5 seasons.

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv.

He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

Serious question. I can’t remember the last time he threw it out of bounds.

Is it that the offense is so impotent that they literally can’t waste a down?

a lot of it seems teachable, but even adjusting for the poor hand he's was dealt here over the seasons, it feels like the mental part of the game and the recognition should be further along than it is. Even when he's not 'wrong', it feels slow.

In comment 15824712 JonC said:

Quote:

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

I agree, his misses are pretty obvious even for someone like me that doesn't watch film or replay games. In the moment of these games you know that a better QB makes a handful of the plays we need per game to get us over the hump.

Its kinda why I don't buy this whole rebuild window thing. Despite our lack of talent I think its pretty clear we can be better than .500 with a better QB (don't even need an elite one). Jones can probably get good enough to be top 20ish but that just won't cut it.

In comment 15824598 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

Well, then get used to singing another sub par QB next year because we're not drafting one. Eight teams with two 1st round picks all have more draft capital to jump us. Your talking 3 1st round picks to get whoever your thinking of!

Almost every 1st round bust has the physical tools to play QB in the NFL. The physical tools are easy to identify. They are necessary, but not sufficient to be a good QB.

The mental/instinctual stuff on top of the physical tools is what makes a good QB. That is much harder to identify. And it is the reason that there are many 1st round busts like Jones.

Seriously go down the list of 1st round busts - not just guys who washed out of the league - but guys who are backup caliber QBs like Jones. A lot of them have the physical tools. It does not make them good QBs.

be seeing the field, but just taking an overly conservative approach in order to not turn it over. This actually makes sense for two reasons. First, the previous staff was ridiculously conservative and Jones has been burned in the press previously for interceptions. Second, we do see him making the throws at certain times, such as when the game is slipping away and he feels its time to take a shot. HE can make the throws if he takes them. Daboll needs to get him to be more balanced and more aggressive throughout the game, you can't just pick your spots.

I sure don’t like Jones’ release, which is slow. His timing is frequently off. I’ve been complaining about this for years at this point. He chronically delivers the ball late to the receivers. And that limits yardage and big plays, given the speed of NFL defenders.

In comment 15824601 State Your Name said:

Quote:

They were more than enough times where he didn’t have shit to throw to. But he took care of the ball.

Thanks for input, you have a much better sight advantage than anyone watching on television

In comment 15824723 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15824712 JonC said: Quote: it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in. I agree, his misses are pretty obvious even for someone like me that doesn't watch film or replay games. In the moment of these games you know that a better QB makes a handful of the plays we need per game to get us over the hump. Its kinda why I don't buy this whole rebuild window thing. Despite our lack of talent I think its pretty clear we can be better than .500 with a better QB (don't even need an elite one). Jones can probably get good enough to be top 20ish but that just won't cut it.

Definitely not when you consider the contract cost. QBs at Jones' level are paid $7-8M per, not a $32M franchise tag or even a meet in the middle $20M to rescind the tag. NYG can and will do better, otherwise good luck building a serious contender in the NFL.

In comment 15824737 Daboll needs to get him to be more balanced and more aggressive throughout the game, you can't just pick your spots. [/quote]

Absolutely agree, but I think it points back to Jones' noggin and ability to feel the game out there. He just frequently doesn't show a feel for it very often.

In comment 15824738 cosmicj said:

Quote:

I sure don’t like Jones’ release, which is slow. His timing is frequently off. I’ve been complaining about this for years at this point. He chronically delivers the ball late to the receivers. And that limits yardage and big plays, given the speed of NFL defenders.

This is totally semantic, but I think most people are drawn to a limited set of physical tools with Jones - ones that are very obvious to evaluate. Size, speed, arm strength (and physical appearance). His arm strength isn't amazing but it's totally fine.

I agree - he's obviously missing a lot of things that are needed to be a good QB. Its just a matter of how you would classify those skills.

In comment 15824598 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

I am with you. He is Mike Glennon.

But please somebody pinch me when he has an actual pocket to step up into!

i think its he is afraid to make a mistake, the joe judge era screwed him, they took a QB that threw 26 TDs in 12 games and turned him into a 3 yard curl passer because they thought that was a way to fix his turnovers..

It was the worst thing that happened to Jones because now in bis mind he cant take chances, he sees a guy coming open but instead of threading the needle he checks down, especially early in games..

He has the talent you can see it, the throw to Richie James between 2 defenders was special but he only makes those throws when he has to..

In comment 15824712 JonC said:

Quote:

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

This is it in a nutshell. And for all the talk of not knowing the called play, where his reads are, etc. The most evident problem I see is his lack of poise and confidence. If the defense sees you with a plan, an ability to attack their weaknesses you can catch players and coaches overcompensating. If your receivers know you'll find them, they will get open more.

The one drive last week where he was quick and decisive he was amazing but he seems to be able to channel that so rarely. I think the Giants plan was always to "mold" him and I'm not sure that has served him because it seems like instead of ever finding his own flow of the game that leaves him feeling confident he's almost entirely dependent on the coaches to tell him what he needs to see. And Football is more about feel. Rodgers doesn't know where his ball is going to land or where the receiver will be when it gets there before he throws. That I believe is the crux of his problem, he is trying to think is way through things and trying to get buy in from parts of his brain that are too slow.

In comment 15824660 averagejoe said:

Quote:

and NONE of the intangibles. Great size, attitude, good arm, fast, works hard. But he is not a good QB. Zero pocket awareness, holds the ball too long, does not see the field. The ball NEVER comes out on time. He is always late in red zone where windows are tight . Holding the ball too long make your OL and WR look bad. I'm sure Daboll and Schoen have already seen enough of Daniel Jones. He will be replaced ASAP.

You lost me with the words. “NEVER and sure”

In comment 15824794 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

i think its he is afraid to make a mistake, the joe judge era screwed him, they took a QB that threw 26 TDs in 12 games and turned him into a 3 yard curl passer because they thought that was a way to fix his turnovers.. It was the worst thing that happened to Jones because now in bis mind he cant take chances, he sees a guy coming open but instead of threading the needle he checks down, especially early in games.. He has the talent you can see it, the throw to Richie James between 2 defenders was special but he only makes those throws when he has to..

Well, Toney was wide open - like wide open - on a potential big play Sunday and Jones didn’t see it. There was no risk there.

But we both can be right. Jones. An be gun shy and at the same time not seeing open receivers.

Jones. Exactly what this board has been missing the past 4 years.

Success as a qb requires what many technologists and Asian scientists call "flow"--smooth, methodical control of a situation. With the limited time he has before the pocket typically collapses, and the pathetic bunch of wide receivers, Jones rarely achieves flow. His OL looks worse than the available talent, because the wrs are so awful, and defenses crowd the DL consistently. The net, net is that we never get the best possible picture of his skills.

I would love to see what his optimal flow looks like, with at least mediocre OL,TEs and wrs, before giving up on him.

His arm is ok, not nearly great, and he is inconsistent from throw to throw.

Consistency is an athletic trait. Great QBs have it. Jones doesn't.

Outside of straight line speed and height, what attribute of Jones would put him in the upper echelon of NFL QBs? What standout skill does he possess? I can't think of one. He's average to below average in all aspects.

In comment 15824630 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me. Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season. We shall see.

Both these posts are very fair.

In comment 15824894 Producer said:

Quote:

His arm is ok, not nearly great, and he is inconsistent from throw to throw. Consistency is an athletic trait. Great QBs have it. Jones doesn't.

Consistency is exactly it.

Jones is like lightening. It flashes every now and then, but you wouldn't rely on it to power your house.

Are most concerned with potentially paying Jones. As NGD has mentioned, it’s scary to think about making a financial commitment to Jones with such little production. It would put this franchise in QB hell. Never sign a position just to still need that position which I’m afraid about with Jones. I was pleased the 5th year option was not picked up.

I’ve already seen posters say “if a new QB is brought in, all progress will be lost.” I can’t disagree with that anymore. To this point (and it’s been a big sample size), Jones has not done enough to warrant a second contract here.

It scares me that so many fans are going to have the same philosophy as Mara. “Well, there is no one better.” “Moving on from Jones will set us back.” Nothing against Jones, I just want a higher standard at the position. Fortunately, I think Schoen & Daboll will have final say.

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here.

Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions.

What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

with a deuce-seven offsuit throwing to a James Richie lead aerial assault. Sills V actually looks stunned for a split second whenever he receives a pass.

Of course the creepy sweaty bbi'ers lurk to pounce on every missed pass in preseason or game.

In comment 15824924 plato said:

Quote:

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here. Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions. What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

I guess you missed the early Eli years.

should be interesting. Jones is likely aware the pts per game needs to increase. I am sure Daboll is concerned with 20 PPG. He's also won the last 2 games where playing cautiously didn't doom the team, but we need to score more points. Kind of a fork in the road moment. Where does Jones go from there. Right now he's a mobile game manager. Does he turn into a mistake prone mess or a more prolific winner. It would be nice if we had a legit downfield WR but it is what it is. WE do have a game breaking RB and some tough underneath WRs. Make it work.

In comment 15824924 plato said:

Quote:

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here. Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions. What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

you'd be amazed at the level of football knowledge that can be obtained from one's couch.

Quote:

Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

This is what I have been saying too and it's not meant to sound like a jones apology. As long as keep winning everything that needs some time can take time and we can still enjoy what is happening week to week. Jones doesn't need to split the atom these last 2 weeks nor does he need to do so these next 2 weeks. He needs to earn the trust of this staff by week 17. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but every early ugly win here won't hurt his cause unless he's playing like an absolute turd, and he's not. He's holding it together. He still has time to improve and guess what, he might.

can rationalize just about anything with Jones. He's done some high level things, some boneheaded things and a lot of play that is in the middle. It would be a hell of a lot easier if other variables were controlled, like O-Line play, receivers, coaching staff, offensive system but given the turnover on all of those, it is hard to view this in a logically systemic way from a fan perspective. Plus, we have no real idea what the coaches are wanting from him.

I can only speak from a personal level, but I'm just going to see what the next 15 games bring. I'm not sold in any way - plus or minus - on Jones, but it's just my opinion that we now have the best baseline in which to view his play relative to previous seasons.

Daniel Jones has nobody except for a broken down Sterling Shepherd in the trilight of his career.

the reason why there was so much anger from the hopeful crowd directed at the so called realists was not because of the message but how it was delivered, time and time again and in many cases it would be delivered in almost angry condescending tones.

I've had dozens of debates on Jones both here and in real life with many of them totally calm and respectful in nature. Most times I all but agree with someone who is down on Jones. It's the ones that insist on things and don't allow for any wiggle room or any variance that's tough to take. That applies to just about anything in life for me.

QB is by far the toughest position to analyze correctly. It has gotten so called great GMs fired. It has vaulted so called bad GMs to legendary ring of honor status. It has made the best look bad and the worst look better than they should look. It's the most confounding position in all of pro sports.

is a "paint by numbers" quarterback. He has to take his time, stay within the lines, and, hopefully, doesn't pick the wrong color.

I don't think that can work in today's NFL without an extraordinary amount of quality support which will likely blow-up the cap. Right now, Miami does seem to be pulling that off with Tua as Miami has upgraded the OL, RBs, and an elite 4x100 track team as receivers. I don't like Tua, but there is at least a pedigree there that seems to have translated to the NFL - for now.

I guess it continues to be me and my lack of judgment, but I don't see anything special about Jones's throwing skills, and he continually looks like a classic JAC QB.

In comment 15824924 plato said:

Quote:

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here. Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions. What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

The appeals to authority are really nonsense. Years and years we were told as stupid fans we couldn't possibly evaluate the 3D chess Dave Gettleman was playing, that us mere civilians dare not deign to impugn the superior intellect of DG. It's not rocket science dude. When someone talks about a stock they are buying are people like how dare you speak on this? You aren't a professional.

People can analyze information, sometimes shockingly better than the experts. Sometimes experts are complete jackasses too. I've never seen anyone on BBI claim to be better than an NFL team at scouting, etc. But plenty of people are capable of seeing a given decision, data point, evaluation better than an expert. Besides, we are here to debate things. These arguments are super annoying. Oh, well I guess the experts are better than us? No use talking about anything or having opinions because they are just sub-par and useless...

Price. Fitzpatrick made about $37MM in 17 seasons. Cousins has made over $200MM in 11 seasons.

Well, that and playoff wins. Cousins has one, which is one more than Fitzpatrick.

At this point, price remains a big unknown with Jones. If the market pegs him as a Ryan Fitzpatrick-type placeholder, he could be decent value for somebody. Maybe not the Giants, who already have a placeholder signed for 2023, but somebody.

TBH, I don't think there is a "Ryan Fitzpatrick / Kirk Cousins" type career. Jones can attain Ryan Fitzpatrick's level without progressing all that far from where he is now. Fitz had a flair for the dramatic, but when he was bad he was really bad. Cousins has sustained solid productivity for nearly a decade (last night's second half notwithstanding), and he's among the most durable QBs in the League. I think Washington and Minnesota have wasted a lot of money on him while hoping something better would come along, but I can sort of see why they've done it.

In comment 15824979 bw in dc said:

Quote:

is a "paint by numbers" quarterback. He has to take his time, stay within the lines, and, hopefully, doesn't pick the wrong color. I don't think that can work in today's NFL without an extraordinary amount of quality support which will likely blow-up the cap. Right now, Miami does seem to be pulling that off with Tua as Miami has upgraded the OL, RBs, and an elite 4x100 track team as receivers. I don't like Tua, but there is at least a pedigree there that seems to have translated to the NFL - for now. I guess it continues to be me and my lack of judgment, but I don't see anything special about Jones's throwing skills, and he continually looks like a classic JAC QB.

I hear you--let me add that Miami might be pulling it off with Tua simply because they have two nuclear weapons at WR and a good OL. Tua also could have just taken a big leap in year 3 like many before him. Like you said though, for now...I agree there too. Things can change rapidly> Let's see Tua respond when he gets punched in the mouth. It really is a fascinating development down there in Miami.

but he played at an elite level in college. Which makes the team continually projecting him favorably make some sense at least. That's the big thing with Jones, he's never shown he can play even close to an elite level. (IE putting together an entire season like that not beating up on some bad teams like he did his rookie year)

tells me the poster cannot himself engage in actual, constructive football convo, thus an attempt to somehow color those who can (and have often been proven correct). Shocker.

In comment 15824726 bluewave said:

Quote:

In comment 15824598 Mike in NY said: Quote: I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins. Well, then get used to singing another sub par QB next year because we're not drafting one. Eight teams with two 1st round picks all have more draft capital to jump us. Your talking 3 1st round picks to get whoever your thinking of!

Name the 8 teams with two 1st round picks next year. I see four (Miami would be the fifth, but their own pick was forfeited).

Of the four, three of them will almost certainly be in the market for QBs (Detroit, Houston, Seattle), while Philly may stick with Hurts (if he continues playing as he has so far this year, I think they probably will stay with him in 2023), but the three teams with multiple 1st round picks who are likely to be looking at QBs are also very potentially going to be in the top 10 (if not top 5) themselves. So their extra picks are unlikely to be used for a trade-up, because they won't need to. Or if they do, they'll be moving up from a spot that's probably already in front of the Giants.

The issue for the Giants won't be that they don't have enough draft capital to trade up for a QB - anyone can empty the cupboard for a QB they love. The issue will be that the draft slot they'd need to acquire just might not be for sale because it's already occupied by a team that's targeting a QB (or is locked onto Will Anderson or Jalen Carter). The most expensive house on any block isn't always the nicest one. The most expensive house is the one whose owner refuses to sell it.

Even so, none of that means that DJ will be the Giants QB in 2023 or beyond. The Giants already declined his 5th year option, which ensured that DJ would need to earn his next contract this year. I don't see Schoen and Daboll making an about-face on that decision if DJ only has a slightly above average season.

In comment 15824924 plato said:

Quote:

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here. Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions. What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

Sounds like you're dissatisfied with BBI. It'd be a real shame if you decided to not post here anymore. What in the world would we do with the zero insight you provide?

In comment 15825015 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

but he played at an elite level in college. Which makes the team continually projecting him favorably make some sense at least. That's the big thing with Jones, he's never shown he can play even close to an elite level. (IE putting together an entire season like that not beating up on some bad teams like he did his rookie year)

That's what I meant by pedigree. At least we saw Tua play huge at Bama with the biggest stakes on the line. I still don't like his arm, but the front office and the mad scientist McDaniel have made Tua's game day circumstances very comfortable for now.

Tua threw for nearly 470 yards against the Ravens on Sunday and I think over 200 of those yards were to receivers who were so open I thought I was watching an a Big12 game.

Elite elite. Like Drew Brees level accuracy. He has taken a step and they are gameplanning aroind this one elite trait.

In comment 15825049 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15825015 NoGainDayne said: Quote: but he played at an elite level in college. Which makes the team continually projecting him favorably make some sense at least. That's the big thing with Jones, he's never shown he can play even close to an elite level. (IE putting together an entire season like that not beating up on some bad teams like he did his rookie year) That's what I meant by pedigree. At least we saw Tua play huge at Bama with the biggest stakes on the line. I still don't like his arm, but the front office and the mad scientist McDaniel have made Tua's game day circumstances very comfortable for now. Tua threw for nearly 470 yards against the Ravens on Sunday and I think over 200 of those yards were to receivers who were so open I thought I was watching an a Big12 game.

No complaints on Daboll but looks like we were right to be salivating over McDaniel. That offense is going to be a huge headache all year

Most acknowledge Jones has limitations and it being year 4 expectations should be much higher.

Cosell put it best when he says every QB needs help. The great variable is how much.

The Giants have a lot still to do on offense adding talent. Besides the interior they have big WR issues. Right now looking at the TV picture the PB and WR's are bottom ten imv. The running game is not consistent enough (ypc) to help offset it. This is right now. Doesn't mean as the season progresses. Still, some plays are being missed. My guess is part of it is the constant pressure (both actual and internal) and part is just his ability.

So if those two areas move to top 10 (JS's job) what is the realistic expectation of Jones (and price tag) versus a cheaper FA (i.e.; Taylor) or draft pick (and all the variables with that). This decision will determine his future. As I said before it is going to be easy to solve or very problematic for JS.

In comment 15824666 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

at this point. How much weight/blame you put on poor coaching and weak supporting cast around him is not an unfair point but it is also subjective, at least to some degree, and also losing its steam. But it is still Year 4 of him starting games, so something's got to click soon in his head when surveying the field or it never will... As of now the Giants are 2-0. Onto game 3.

In comment 15824924 plato said:

Quote:

evaluators who can post with expertise on “Pete’s Corner”. It just shows how this site has progressed in the past two decades. I sure hope that GM’s, coaches, and scouts read these “superb” opinions published repeatedly here. Of course most are unverifiable because our experts do not describe the empirical methods they have or would use to to test their opinions. Second there is no verification (analytic data) provided to support their “expert” opinions. What we have here are saloon experts screaming year after year, most of it adolescent in character. There should be a way to provide many readers an evaluation tool so that we can submit these “experts” opinions to empirical evaluation. My guess is it can’t be be done. But perhaps the “analytic” experts here could devise a tool to decide which of these recidivist “experts” opinions may be judged in the empirical world with empirical methods not as a quasi cult-like belief system.

Hurry up and use a few more "quotation marks" in your posts before the world runs out of them...

In comment 15825220 Maryland Blows said:

Quote:

In comment 15824666 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: at this point. How much weight/blame you put on poor coaching and weak supporting cast around him is not an unfair point but it is also subjective, at least to some degree, and also losing its steam. But it is still Year 4 of him starting games, so something's got to click soon in his head when surveying the field or it never will... As of now the Giants are 2-0. Onto game 3.

After being on here all these years you still haven't figured out how to reply outside the previous quote?

In comment 15825092 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

In comment 15825049 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15825015 NoGainDayne said: Quote: but he played at an elite level in college. Which makes the team continually projecting him favorably make some sense at least. That's the big thing with Jones, he's never shown he can play even close to an elite level. (IE putting together an entire season like that not beating up on some bad teams like he did his rookie year) That's what I meant by pedigree. At least we saw Tua play huge at Bama with the biggest stakes on the line. I still don't like his arm, but the front office and the mad scientist McDaniel have made Tua's game day circumstances very comfortable for now. Tua threw for nearly 470 yards against the Ravens on Sunday and I think over 200 of those yards were to receivers who were so open I thought I was watching an a Big12 game. No complaints on Daboll but looks like we were right to be salivating over McDaniel. That offense is going to be a huge headache all year

I don't know about McDaniel but wouldn't mind having Tyreek.

In comment 15825092 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

In comment 15825049 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15825015 NoGainDayne said: Quote: but he played at an elite level in college. Which makes the team continually projecting him favorably make some sense at least. That's the big thing with Jones, he's never shown he can play even close to an elite level. (IE putting together an entire season like that not beating up on some bad teams like he did his rookie year) That's what I meant by pedigree. At least we saw Tua play huge at Bama with the biggest stakes on the line. I still don't like his arm, but the front office and the mad scientist McDaniel have made Tua's game day circumstances very comfortable for now. Tua threw for nearly 470 yards against the Ravens on Sunday and I think over 200 of those yards were to receivers who were so open I thought I was watching an a Big12 game. No complaints on Daboll but looks like we were right to be salivating over McDaniel. That offense is going to be a huge headache all year

McDaniel does look like a very bright offensive mind. However, he would have likely been paired with Adam Peters. Peters was involved heavily in the Broncos drafting Paxton Lynch & the Niners moving up for Trey Lance. While it’s too early to make a strong opinion on Lance, the Niners gave up a lot to get him and it’s been reported that Kyle Shanahan preferred Mac Jones. Schoen was part of the front office which drafted Josh Allen. For a team that will need to draft a QB, that’s an enormous difference.

In comment 15827000 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 15825092 NoGainDayne said: McDaniel does look like a very bright offensive mind. However, he would have likely been paired with Adam Peters. Peters was involved heavily in the Broncos drafting Paxton Lynch & the Niners moving up for Trey Lance. While it’s too early to make a strong opinion on Lance, the Niners gave up a lot to get him and it’s been reported that Kyle Shanahan preferred Mac Jones. Schoen was part of the front office which drafted Josh Allen. For a team that will need to draft a QB, that’s an enormous difference.

Let me help here on this misinformation of Shanahan wanting Mac Jones.
Everyone one wanted Lance - ( New Window )

That’s interesting. It’s so widely reported that Shanahan preferred Mac. Mike Lombardi says it all the time.

In comment 15827006 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15827000 Sean said: Quote: In comment 15825092 NoGainDayne said: McDaniel does look like a very bright offensive mind. However, he would have likely been paired with Adam Peters. Peters was involved heavily in the Broncos drafting Paxton Lynch & the Niners moving up for Trey Lance. While it’s too early to make a strong opinion on Lance, the Niners gave up a lot to get him and it’s been reported that Kyle Shanahan preferred Mac Jones. Schoen was part of the front office which drafted Josh Allen. For a team that will need to draft a QB, that’s an enormous difference. Let me help here on this misinformation of Shanahan wanting Mac Jones. Everyone one wanted Lance - ( New Window )

So Shanahan was wrong on Lance, who is awful - so bad that they had to keep Jimmy G. Lance getting hurt is the best thing to happen to SF this season

.

In comment 15827018 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

.

And we still don't know what we have in Jones...

In comment 15827008 Sean said:

Quote:

That’s interesting. It’s so widely reported that Shanahan preferred Mac. Mike Lombardi says it all the time.

I've followed this closely.

Shanahan, as the article points out, liked Jones. But as the process evolved, he became more and more intrigued with Lance. Which makes sense when you think about it. When Kyle was in Washington with his dad, Mike, the Commanders drafted RG3. When his dad was having all of his success in Denver, Mike had Elway. So, the Shanahans seems to have a prototype QB vision: one who can deliver from the pocket, but who has the athleticism to be mobile and run.

Below is another good report.
More Lance details... - ( New Window )

In comment 15827011 Snablats said:

Quote:

In comment 15827006 bw in dc said: So Shanahan was wrong on Lance, who is awful - so bad that they had to keep Jimmy G. Lance getting hurt is the best thing to happen to SF this season

Retaining JimG was a great hedge.

But it's way too early to write the obituary on Lance.

he has shown zero, which is why SF kept Jimmy G at the end of camp because they knew

As I read on twitter, does this clear the way for Brady to SF next season? Brady will be a free agent