Dan Jones, my take

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

They were more than enough times where he didn’t have shit to throw to. But he took care of the ball.

Points 2 & 3 are quite concerning.

He lacks fab savvy imo

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly.

What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL.

This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

In comment 15824609 Dave said:

Quote:

He lacks fb savvy imo

I think your spot on.

Jalen Hurts? DJ is the worst QB in the worst division in football the past 4 years. Let that sink in.

here is my non existent Xs & Os retort:

1) I think Jones can make almost any throw you want out of your QB1

**You don't have to think - he can make any throw well. He doesn't have Allen's power or Rodgers release, but his arm is plenty good and better than Eli's

2) My issue with him is I do not think his processing speed during a play is good enough to make him an elite QB in this league

** I honestly do not know what that means despite it being throw around here like insults. What I do think is that he lacks confidence in what he sees or the routes that his WRs are running and is slow to make the throw unless perfectly open. Is it two years of being beaten up by the previous coaching staff about protecting the ball? Was this an issue season #1? He did have INT issues, but most rookies do. And add in what Shepard and the staff said after last week - WRs are not making the correct pre-snap reads. On the other hand, perhaps you and others are correct - the game has never slowed down for him.

3) I do not think he sees the field, which is similar to point 2 above.

**this is another way of saying what you said in #2

4) Jones is not throwing to a great set of WR's (might be one of the 5 worst WR groups in the league)

** Somewhat true, however, I think it is more that he only has a confident rapport with Shep, Sills, and James. He seems to like Bellinger too. Clearly Daboll/Kafka have issues with WRs not making correct reads pre-snap - they said it out loud. So if the QB gets set to throw and the WR goes the wrong way he cannot pull the trigger.

5) The OL has not proven they can pass protect, which limits the ability for Kafka/Dabboll to design longer developing plays

** Correct. Young line and still gelling - it will be ugly at times.

6)I could see him having a Fitzmagic/Kirk Cousins type of career, but not much more. Not all pro, but even all-star but can wow you some weeks but will never get you over the hump to be a great team.

**I do not think he will be here next year. He is not Daboll/Schoen's QB. Not sure where he will be next season, but he is mediocre at best at this point in his career.

I do want to see what happens as the year progresses. Once the WRs get proficient at their reads, will Jones get it out faster? Remember how Eli and VC could look at each other and know exactly what the other was thinking? Peyton had that with Reggie Wayne.
The excuses are long, but for whatever reason DJ is just not getting it done consistently.

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season.

We shall see.

gotta have a take

And nothing has changed

In comment 15824630 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me. Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season. We shall see.

There is also a lot of guessing here. The media talks about guys open and people eat it up because of their own biases, but we don’t know what play was called. Is Jones not seeing a guy because he is not expected to be in that location even if the receiver is ultimately open? Should Jones have expected that and WR was making correct read but Jones got it wrong? Our interior OL also needs to clean up the immediate pressure up the middle. Even if the metrics say Jones has the time, if he is immediately having to move to one side because of pressure up the gut that takes away one side of the scheme unless you want him throwing across his body.

Doesn’t have a primary number 1 target. Barkley is his biggest threat.

The O Line is still jelling.

I’ll just compare with Eli and what he had in year 4.

1. Same head coach
2. Same offense
3. Skill players: Toomer, Barber, Shockey, Burress

Manning eventually knew where he was throwing the ball pre snap. Jones may get there but he will need to be in the same scheme for a couple of years first. And if he can get targets he can trust, even better.

Good posts. Even if someone does not agree with their views, those views should be at least considered.

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me.

I agree with you Robbie, which is what makes evaluating him so difficult.

On the play with Toney, he was open, and the camera caught Toney on the sideline saying he was open, that was the biggest miss I saw from him this past weekend.

In comment 15824613 BigBlueJ said:

Quote:

Jalen Hurts? DJ is the worst QB in the worst division in football the past 4 years. Let that sink in.

Hurts had all day, literally, to throw and his receivers were wide open all night.

Both points run counter to what Jones is experiencing.

For the season or until he gets hurt which is likely. Why not wait until season’s end to evaluate. Also, finding a better one isn’t so easy. Many teams spend a decade trying to find a QB.

some Dan's just need to be Daniel. Dan Jones? Sounds weird.

No one called Daniel LaRusso "Dan" did they? it just sounds weird too.

So, your take is bad because you called him Dan.

In comment 15824632 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

gotta have a take

LOL - everybody's an expert. I'm sure Aaron Rodgers didn't forgot how to process last week. It happens. When your team is being outplayed, the QB play looks suspicious. Doesn't matter who it is.

Jones has looked sharp at times (Wash game last year). He does have it, well see if he can somehow get it back. May be tough with this set of guards/center (and now receivers)), but I bet they control one of our opponents DLine and Jones looks all world this year. Then we can hear about all of the processing, etc.

Right now he is winning close games, which is one checkmark off the QB list.

he needs to take the bull by the horns and elevate others around him. Thus far this year he has not done so. He's avoided making mistakes that cost the team two games with razor thin margins. But the excuses are out the window. I don't think Daboll will be reluctant to pull the plug at some point this year if he doesn't step it up.

Is going to knock the Giants out of the top to the draft QB sweepstakes. In that case I don't think they move on from DJ just to make a change and they use that pick to fill other roster holes.

and NONE of the intangibles. Great size, attitude, good arm, fast, works hard. But he is not a good QB. Zero pocket awareness, holds the ball too long, does not see the field. The ball NEVER comes out on time. He is always late in red zone where windows are tight . Holding the ball too long make your OL and WR look bad.

I'm sure Daboll and Schoen have already seen enough of Daniel Jones. He will be replaced ASAP.

at this point. How much weight/blame you put on poor coaching and weak supporting cast around him is not an unfair point but it is also subjective, at least to some degree, and also losing its steam.

But it is still Year 4 of him starting games, so something's got to click soon in his head when surveying the field or it never will...

At this time of his playing QB,your assessment of his skill level is probably correct..But my opinion is this..WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE GREAT THROWS AND PROCESSING HE WAS MAKING HIS ROOKIE YEAR??
I'M LEAVING OUT THE FUMBLES AND INT's,because those can be corrected..You ALL NICKNAMED HIM DANNY DIMES
for a reason..This kid has sucked because his coaching staff belongs in division 2 college coaching..This kid sucks because the O Lineman suck..The O Lineman were sucking wind when Eli was the QB..I don't care one way or the other if he's here next year or not..But let's put the BLAME for his inability to play like he did his rookie year where it belongs..The coaching staff,and the GM,for not getting the players here to make whoever is the QB play well...

I agree with posts above. The OL is not there yet, they should get better and the WRs are wat they are, a below average group. There have also been mentions of wrong routes.

From what I understand about the system is that there are not defined routes, players get to improvise a bit and the QB and WR have to be on the same page. Its going to take a bit of time to truly get there.

Despite all that we are 2-0. Jones has made some plays when we needed it. He's had 2 clearly bad throws, 1 was an INT and the other should have been but stuff like that happens for all QBs. He's probably never going to be an all pro but I think he can be a good QB. Overall our talent level isnt great especially at WR. Sills is getting significant playing time (67 of 73 possible snaps), which doesnt reflect well on the talent. Golladay is a flat out bust. Toney has talent but he had a bad game. Robinson is a question mark, he may have showed in camp but I havent seen anything in the limited time we saw him and his 1st catch he was injured.

if he could make all the throws, he would be better statistically and the offense would not have been so limited for going on 5 seasons.

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv.

He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

Serious question. I can’t remember the last time he threw it out of bounds.

Is it that the offense is so impotent that they literally can’t waste a down?

a lot of it seems teachable, but even adjusting for the poor hand he's was dealt here over the seasons, it feels like the mental part of the game and the recognition should be further along than it is. Even when he's not 'wrong', it feels slow.

In comment 15824712 JonC said:

Quote:

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

I agree, his misses are pretty obvious even for someone like me that doesn't watch film or replay games. In the moment of these games you know that a better QB makes a handful of the plays we need per game to get us over the hump.

Its kinda why I don't buy this whole rebuild window thing. Despite our lack of talent I think its pretty clear we can be better than .500 with a better QB (don't even need an elite one). Jones can probably get good enough to be top 20ish but that just won't cut it.

In comment 15824598 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

Well, then get used to singing another sub par QB next year because we're not drafting one. Eight teams with two 1st round picks all have more draft capital to jump us. Your talking 3 1st round picks to get whoever your thinking of!

Almost every 1st round bust has the physical tools to play QB in the NFL. The physical tools are easy to identify. They are necessary, but not sufficient to be a good QB.

The mental/instinctual stuff on top of the physical tools is what makes a good QB. That is much harder to identify. And it is the reason that there are many 1st round busts like Jones.

Seriously go down the list of 1st round busts - not just guys who washed out of the league - but guys who are backup caliber QBs like Jones. A lot of them have the physical tools. It does not make them good QBs.

be seeing the field, but just taking an overly conservative approach in order to not turn it over. This actually makes sense for two reasons. First, the previous staff was ridiculously conservative and Jones has been burned in the press previously for interceptions. Second, we do see him making the throws at certain times, such as when the game is slipping away and he feels its time to take a shot. HE can make the throws if he takes them. Daboll needs to get him to be more balanced and more aggressive throughout the game, you can't just pick your spots.

I sure don’t like Jones’ release, which is slow. His timing is frequently off. I’ve been complaining about this for years at this point. He chronically delivers the ball late to the receivers. And that limits yardage and big plays, given the speed of NFL defenders.

In comment 15824601 State Your Name said:

Quote:

They were more than enough times where he didn’t have shit to throw to. But he took care of the ball.

Thanks for input, you have a much better sight advantage than anyone watching on television

In comment 15824723 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15824712 JonC said: Quote: it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in. I agree, his misses are pretty obvious even for someone like me that doesn't watch film or replay games. In the moment of these games you know that a better QB makes a handful of the plays we need per game to get us over the hump. Its kinda why I don't buy this whole rebuild window thing. Despite our lack of talent I think its pretty clear we can be better than .500 with a better QB (don't even need an elite one). Jones can probably get good enough to be top 20ish but that just won't cut it.

Definitely not when you consider the contract cost. QBs at Jones' level are paid $7-8M per, not a $32M franchise tag or even a meet in the middle $20M to rescind the tag. NYG can and will do better, otherwise good luck building a serious contender in the NFL.

In comment 15824737 Daboll needs to get him to be more balanced and more aggressive throughout the game, you can't just pick your spots. [/quote]

Absolutely agree, but I think it points back to Jones' noggin and ability to feel the game out there. He just frequently doesn't show a feel for it very often.

In comment 15824738 cosmicj said:

Quote:

I sure don’t like Jones’ release, which is slow. His timing is frequently off. I’ve been complaining about this for years at this point. He chronically delivers the ball late to the receivers. And that limits yardage and big plays, given the speed of NFL defenders.

This is totally semantic, but I think most people are drawn to a limited set of physical tools with Jones - ones that are very obvious to evaluate. Size, speed, arm strength (and physical appearance). His arm strength isn't amazing but it's totally fine.

I agree - he's obviously missing a lot of things that are needed to be a good QB. Its just a matter of how you would classify those skills.

In comment 15824598 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

I don’t think his processing will progress enough to even be a mediocre QB and his career will be closer to David Carr than Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kirk Cousins.

I am with you. He is Mike Glennon.

But please somebody pinch me when he has an actual pocket to step up into!

i think its he is afraid to make a mistake, the joe judge era screwed him, they took a QB that threw 26 TDs in 12 games and turned him into a 3 yard curl passer because they thought that was a way to fix his turnovers..

It was the worst thing that happened to Jones because now in bis mind he cant take chances, he sees a guy coming open but instead of threading the needle he checks down, especially early in games..

He has the talent you can see it, the throw to Richie James between 2 defenders was special but he only makes those throws when he has to..

In comment 15824712 JonC said:

Quote:

it's rather clear when you watch Jones where he struggles, and much of it is seemingly mental, processing, reacting, football IQ and instincts, making the correct decisions, timing, ability to see enough of the field and select the correct receiver, hitting the tight windows, etc. The protection in front of him and the targets he's throwing to play a part, but it's more basic than that, imv. He leaves me shaking my head consistently through each game, so many plays are always left on the field. I just don't see "it" with Jones. There's "some" but the results to this point still suggest it's not going to be nearly enough to invest market dollars in.

This is it in a nutshell. And for all the talk of not knowing the called play, where his reads are, etc. The most evident problem I see is his lack of poise and confidence. If the defense sees you with a plan, an ability to attack their weaknesses you can catch players and coaches overcompensating. If your receivers know you'll find them, they will get open more.

The one drive last week where he was quick and decisive he was amazing but he seems to be able to channel that so rarely. I think the Giants plan was always to "mold" him and I'm not sure that has served him because it seems like instead of ever finding his own flow of the game that leaves him feeling confident he's almost entirely dependent on the coaches to tell him what he needs to see. And Football is more about feel. Rodgers doesn't know where his ball is going to land or where the receiver will be when it gets there before he throws. That I believe is the crux of his problem, he is trying to think is way through things and trying to get buy in from parts of his brain that are too slow.

In comment 15824660 averagejoe said:

Quote:

and NONE of the intangibles. Great size, attitude, good arm, fast, works hard. But he is not a good QB. Zero pocket awareness, holds the ball too long, does not see the field. The ball NEVER comes out on time. He is always late in red zone where windows are tight . Holding the ball too long make your OL and WR look bad. I'm sure Daboll and Schoen have already seen enough of Daniel Jones. He will be replaced ASAP.

You lost me with the words. “NEVER and sure”

In comment 15824794 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

i think its he is afraid to make a mistake, the joe judge era screwed him, they took a QB that threw 26 TDs in 12 games and turned him into a 3 yard curl passer because they thought that was a way to fix his turnovers.. It was the worst thing that happened to Jones because now in bis mind he cant take chances, he sees a guy coming open but instead of threading the needle he checks down, especially early in games.. He has the talent you can see it, the throw to Richie James between 2 defenders was special but he only makes those throws when he has to..

Well, Toney was wide open - like wide open - on a potential big play Sunday and Jones didn’t see it. There was no risk there.

But we both can be right. Jones. An be gun shy and at the same time not seeing open receivers.

Jones. Exactly what this board has been missing the past 4 years.

Success as a qb requires what many technologists and Asian scientists call "flow"--smooth, methodical control of a situation. With the limited time he has before the pocket typically collapses, and the pathetic bunch of wide receivers, Jones rarely achieves flow. His OL looks worse than the available talent, because the wrs are so awful, and defenses crowd the DL consistently. The net, net is that we never get the best possible picture of his skills.

I would love to see what his optimal flow looks like, with at least mediocre OL,TEs and wrs, before giving up on him.

His arm is ok, not nearly great, and he is inconsistent from throw to throw.

Consistency is an athletic trait. Great QBs have it. Jones doesn't.

Outside of straight line speed and height, what attribute of Jones would put him in the upper echelon of NFL QBs? What standout skill does he possess? I can't think of one. He's average to below average in all aspects.

In comment 15824630 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In comment 15824610 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: and rightfully so. However, when I was at the game Sunday, there were always defenders around the receivers. There were times where the receivers seemed open (one play in particularly with Toney and another WR running drag routes across the formation) but he was being pressured too quickly. What I think some fail to realize is it is a double edged sword. People criticize his ability to process but don't realize how much a poor OL and lack of good receivers affects that. On the flip side, if Jones stands in the pocket and lets the routes develop then he takes a hit, a sack, and/or fumble. Then those same people will say he has no pocket awareness. On top of all that, he's in a new offense with ever changing receivers and OL. This was always going to be a work in progress. Trust is real and takes a long time to develop. This is one reason Sills is playing as much as he is. The OL should continue to get better. Our WRs will start to sort themselves out and hopefully get better. The fact that we are getting wins now while still sorting through this is impressive to me. Excellent post My take: if Schoen and Daboll see the inability to process, a lack of pocket awareness, a guy who doesn’t have the arm talent, and any of the other talking points regarding this quarterback, when they study the coaches tape, he won’t be here next season. We shall see.

Both these posts are very fair.