receivers and field but he is conservative and doesn't take risks until he has too. He can make the throws, but its likely burned into him at this point by previous coaches not to get interceptions and take chances. This is why you see him usually go the safe route until he has to make a play, and then all of a sudden he puts together a drive with a few big throws. We'll see if Daboll/Kafka can get his approach to be more aggressive
At the end you mentioned a lack of pocket for Daniel Jones to step up into. So true! Almost every pass play, it looked like the Giants interior line was being compressed inward. Hard to see our passing attack improve if that problem is not fixed.
I find so much in them. I've always loved Dexter Lawrence, I remember some on here saying last season he's a JAG or worse, but I think he's solid.
Your paragraph on Carolina and their QB troubles is downright scary. I also recall that they used all seven picks in the 2020 draft on defense.
Matt Rhule likely won't be there next year.
Down 13-6, Jones was excellent in that drive. He was assertive and stepped into his throws. The handful of running plays is a big plus too.
I’m concerned though that we are seeing some of the same stuff at the end of Eli’s career. After years of awful OL play, Eli got gun shy and missed throws he should have taken. Starting to see that with Jones a bit too.
I do worry Judge coached a lot of his aggressiveness out of him in order to control turnovers. I don’t mind turnovers as long as it comes with some explosive plays.
Other teams are going to load up the middle, and DJ will have no pocket to step into. Worse, he won't be able to throw to the middle of the field with hands in his face. He'll only be able to slide left or right (not his strength) or scramble to the outside.
We'll need to rely on outlets – and Saquon is a good one to have – but in pass pro he's part of the problem, and as an outlet he'll usually be shadowed by a defender.
This off season, C + G (plus cornerback) will be a priority.
Sy is right: there were guys open downfield all day. Everyone saw it in the section and when Jones went somewhere else, the audible groans around us were obvious. During the peak Eli years, when we saw it, usually he did too and let it rip. Completion or not, he could always recognize the deep shot.
Down 13-6, Jones was excellent in that drive. He was assertive and stepped into his throws. The handful of running plays is a big plus too.
I’m concerned though that we are seeing some of the same stuff at the end of Eli’s career. After years of awful OL play, Eli got gun shy and missed throws he should have taken. Starting to see that with Jones a bit too.
I do worry Judge coached a lot of his aggressiveness out of him in order to control turnovers. I don’t mind turnovers as long as it comes with some explosive plays.
I dont think its OL that has made him gun shy, i think it was the Joe Judge era that made hik gun shy..
They basically had an offense that told him just dont turn the ball over and that is in his head, i thjnk Daboll is trying to get that out of him..
You hesrd Daboll say in the offseason they want Jones to take chances
Sy is right: there were guys open downfield all day. Everyone saw it in the section and when Jones went somewhere else, the audible groans around us were obvious. During the peak Eli years, when we saw it, usually he did too and let it rip. Completion or not, he could always recognize the deep shot.
Sy is right: there were guys open downfield all day. Everyone saw it in the section and when Jones went somewhere else, the audible groans around us were obvious. During the peak Eli years, when we saw it, usually he did too and let it rip. Completion or not, he could always recognize the deep shot.
I think Jones sees it but he doesnt take chances
Yep me too. This is why he does it sometimes and not others. One thing we know is that if Daboll can't change him, he will move on. Daboll doesn't seem to have any issues moving on from big name players
the throw to Richie James was threading the needle, it was a hell of a throw and then he had a throw i think to sills over the defender, off the back foot..not many QBs can make that throw..
I can live with INTs if you are being agressive and in the end you are throwing 2 or 3 tds a game..
I can take INTs when you are being a game manager and Jones needs to realize this, open it up
Sy is right: there were guys open downfield all day. Everyone saw it in the section and when Jones went somewhere else, the audible groans around us were obvious. During the peak Eli years, when we saw it, usually he did too and let it rip. Completion or not, he could always recognize the deep shot.
just because the guy is open doesnt mean he ran the right route. I have a feeling this is giving Jones a moment to pause and why he keeps going to Shepard who he trusts.
greater than 80% of the passing game woes falls on the G C G situation. That leaves less than 20% on Jones.
There is questions regarding Jones' ability to see the field well enough.
Which is it? Combo of both? If the vast majority of the issue is the line directly in front of him, how could he be expected to "take chances"? You can't step into a long ball if there is no time to do so. Hence, the back foot throw comments from some. Frankly, when Jones had time, he went downfield with authority. Look at the throws on the TD drive when he had a little time. He looked damned good on that drive.
I'd like to see ONE game with Jones having an average to above average clean pocket. Just one.
In describing the Panthers long term outlook at QB, I fear you've also described ours.
As of yet, I don't see it from Jones and I'd give him a similar moniker that you did for Mayfield, a back up somewhere next season. Yet with a 2-0 start and looking at some other teams in the league, I don't see us bad enough to be in a position to draft "our guy" next year.
Knowing its early, do you think next year's QB crop will be good enough where we can get someone if we picked in the 10-12 range?
I'm not a Jones defender but I think he has PTSD from his first 3+ yrs
He has been sacked 113 times in his career in 40 games.Don't know how many pressures he has faced but the OL play in front of him as been poor.
Having said that DJ needs to let it rip downfield if he does see open WR's. The question is does he see those open WR's.
Don't know...
For me...I actually think Brederson is a better OG than Lemieux.
The Giants OL will have issues against the Cowboys front 7 defensive speed if they play the same way next week.
because nobody here is unbiased (one way or the other) but let's talk the CGG combo. I think feciano is injured. He had a leg injury in camp and then for week 1. I think he is having a hard time anchoring.
The LG situation needs to get better for sure and Glowinski I think will be better when the Center is a bit stronger (whether through health or a switch).
.... anyone have an update on Shane Lemieux or Nick Gates? Do we have any hope of seeing Gates this year?
I don't think either is a savior per se, but getting more options for the interior line to play with combos would be nice.
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You have to hope they don’t need to rush Gates back before he is really ready. That won’t go well. Unless Lemieux has improved quite a bit by recovery from being out last year and this year, he becomes just another body to try out at LG (and maybe Center). Bredeson and Lemieux at LG and C may be better than Feliciano and anyone.
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The interior is a big issue. The run game needs to be more consistent. Being in 2nd/3rd and long has been a decade problem and it highlights all the Giants weaknesses; combo Jones, WR's and poor pass blocking. Staff has to find ways to win first down imv.
The D has the ability to keep games close but the offense has to get more points.
I think this Dallas game is huge with Chicago the following week 4-0 puts them in a good situation.
Regardless of QB. Is there any thoughts to Daboll's WR rotation that might also hamper a QB in the passing game? We always hear about how important the Summer QB camps are to gain trust between QB and WR, and to gain timing with routes, etc.
Has DJ gained that timing and trust with this group? Outside of Shep, and maybe James... I don't see it.
We know DJ, OL need to get better, but are we hampering ourselves with the WR rotation?
.... anyone have an update on Shane Lemieux or Nick Gates? Do we have any hope of seeing Gates this year?
I don't think either is a savior per se, but getting more options for the interior line to play with combos would be nice.
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You have to hope they don’t need to rush Gates back before he is really ready. That won’t go well. Unless Lemieux has improved quite a bit by recovery from being out last year and this year, he becomes just another body to try out at LG (and maybe Center). Bredeson and Lemieux at LG and C may be better than Feliciano and anyone.
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Yeah, I'm not expecting either to be a huge/immediate upgrade. Mostly would like to have some options and was curious. Gates in particular looked really good, but given the injury and his time off, I agree that our expectations should be limited.
Do you think Daboll (and maybe Kafka) is coaching Jones at specific points in these games to be more aggressive and let it rip? Basically trying to coach him slowly out of his shell that he seems to have pulled into these last couple of years? Because he does look like a different guy on a select few drives in these first two games.
generally last resort. The interior needs to start playing better to hit these because dbacks are taking risks down hill because they know we can’t pass protect a lick right now.
I’m not really expecting this to get better which is why it’s really important to get KT fully with the program. Of course we played two teams with tough dynamic interior players, the Boys don’t have that so will be an interesting watch.
The deep shots we are going to get this year are going to come off PA when the run game is working and crappier interior DLs.
What a pleasure he has been to watch. I'll admit i thought he was a bit of a throwaway backup signing and was nervous after the OLB injuries, but this guy has been playing a supremely physical and energetic brand of ball.
Players like this bring the juice and energy to a whole unit. Seems like a great glue guy on the field and in the locker room. Refreshing to see.
Is a cop out. So is the Judge coached him to be conservative one. If he’s supposed to be a franchise QB he’d adjust. How many backups do we see bounce from system to system each year and step in on a weeks notice and perform?
If Jones can’t adjust threw a full offseason and this problem consists all year, he doesn’t have the make up to be a starting QB in this league. You have to adapt to survive.
Is it Jones or is it the OL? The answer to this question has become one of the most fervent debates in the history of BBI. The answer is most likely both. Jones doesn't see the whole field and misses seeing open receivers even when he has time. But he frequently does not have enough time because his OL can't pass block. I think he's the most pressured QB through two games. Knowing that might encourage him to throw the ball within one or two seconds even when his OL gives him more time. His WRs are also pedestrian, which mean it typically takes them longer to separate.
Jones is a FA after this season. Retaining him on the FT will cost $32M IIRC. I don't expect him to play well enough to justify using the FT on him, or to sign him to a long-term contract. And if that happens, then we may never have a definitive answer to this question, but at least we won't need to wonder about it anymore.
Of how to win, you first have to stop beating yourselves.
Carolina beat themselves with turnovers, drops, missed throws, and penalties. The game was there to be won and they didn’t.
The Giants managed to avoid beating themselves, and sprinkled in enough good plays to take it.
Sy, do you think our slow starts on O are partially Kafka using formations etc to feel out how the opponents will respond. (The scripted starts.) But since we’re not sustaining early drives we’re still doing that into the 2nd quarter?
Is it Jones or is it the OL? The answer to this question has become one of the most fervent debates in the history of BBI. The answer is most likely both. Jones doesn't see the whole field and misses seeing open receivers even when he has time. But he frequently does not have enough time because his OL can't pass block. I think he's the most pressured QB through two games. Knowing that might encourage him to throw the ball within one or two seconds even when his OL gives him more time. His WRs are also pedestrian, which mean it typically takes them longer to separate.
Jones is a FA after this season. Retaining him on the FT will cost $32M IIRC. I don't expect him to play well enough to justify using the FT on him, or to sign him to a long-term contract. And if that happens, then we may never have a definitive answer to this question, but at least we won't need to wonder about it anymore.
how on earth this guy is allowed to handle an NFL offense I will never know. He's had ONE year that could be considered good, 2015 with NYG and that success was 100% attributed to a super human effort from OBJ and underrated play from Eli Manning. Every other year his offenses have SUCKED. Further, 2017 should be a permanent scarlet letter in my eyes. McAdoo presided over one of the more visible and scarring organizational breakdowns and it was his offense that led the charge.
how on earth this guy is allowed to handle an NFL offense I will never know. He's had ONE year that could be considered good, 2015 with NYG and that success was 100% attributed to a super human effort from OBJ and underrated play from Eli Manning. Every other year his offenses have SUCKED. Further, 2017 should be a permanent scarlet letter in my eyes. McAdoo presided over one of the more visible and scarring organizational breakdowns and it was his offense that led the charge.
No to mention 2015 was under Coughlin who always had a big hand in the offense.
especially when they play gritty on defense, but watching Mayfield last week made me wonder how long can the Giants realistically wait for Jones to "get it" before they move on? Mayfield was the #1 overall pick in 2018 and he has some positive attributes but he just doesn't make the Panthers a better team. I appreciate Sy's brutally honest review of the OL but assigning blame for bad individual plays after the fact is easier then coming up with a solution. It is still not clear that Jones can overcome bad plays and make up for deficiencies on the OL, TE and WR which may end up costing the Giants wins this season.
Important to remember the expectations for these two are simply competent, stop gap type starters. They are going to get beat by plus defensive linemen. What's behind them ain't pretty.
I find so much in them. I've always loved Dexter Lawrence, I remember some on here saying last season he's a JAG or worse, but I think he's solid.
Your paragraph on Carolina and their QB troubles is downright scary. I also recall that they used all seven picks in the 2020 draft on defense.
Matt Rhule likely won't be there next year.
Funny how much better dex looks playing between OC and OG
Little more fire too
Liking wink a lot. Much more fire and attitude with D
Talent important but that’s half the battle on that side of the ball
What a pleasure he has been to watch. I'll admit i thought he was a bit of a throwaway backup signing and was nervous after the OLB injuries, but this guy has been playing a supremely physical and energetic brand of ball.
Players like this bring the juice and energy to a whole unit. Seems like a great glue guy on the field and in the locker room. Refreshing to see.
Great guy to have on a D. Swag and being able to back it up is infectious
Cost effective, solid signing.
RE: I agree with your point on Jones, I think he sees the
receivers and field but he is conservative and doesn't take risks until he has too. He can make the throws, but its likely burned into him at this point by previous coaches not to get interceptions and take chances. This is why you see him usually go the safe route until he has to make a play, and then all of a sudden he puts together a drive with a few big throws. We'll see if Daboll/Kafka can get his approach to be more aggressive
Our OL was more porous vs Carolina than Tennessee, Imho, so he likely still has DCarr syndrome, until he gets some confidence in the OL( if they can give him reason to be). Especially since he’s slower than desired on his reads.
Mentioned it a few times before (others have echoed), but Bredesen was good at C in the Pats exhibition. Yes, against 2nd and 3rd stringers, and Patriots are no longer world beaters.
But Feliciano is just having too many negative plays and is usually overmatched. If he is injured, as someone above says, why are the offensive minded HC and OC starting him. He was always a stop-gap replacement for our 'Don't sleep on 'Pio' position.
It's clear Dabs and Kafka think right now that Ezeudu is floundering, but what the hey? Yes, they're trying to win, but all this talk of aiming at 4 - 0 start and how critical Dallas game is, my goodness, this season is about the roster we have now.
There are so many basic needs: OL at C (Jimmy G), WRs, ILBs, TE, Corners,etc., never mind how QB shakes out.
Let Ezeudu take his lumps and see if Josh/Ben/Glow can be better. It can't be too much worse than what we're seeing now. LOL, it might be to start.
Disappointing eval of Flott.
much appreciate your thoughts/insights!
At the end you mentioned a lack of pocket for Daniel Jones to step up into. So true! Almost every pass play, it looked like the Giants interior line was being compressed inward. Hard to see our passing attack improve if that problem is not fixed.
Your paragraph on Carolina and their QB troubles is downright scary. I also recall that they used all seven picks in the 2020 draft on defense.
Matt Rhule likely won't be there next year.
I’m concerned though that we are seeing some of the same stuff at the end of Eli’s career. After years of awful OL play, Eli got gun shy and missed throws he should have taken. Starting to see that with Jones a bit too.
I do worry Judge coached a lot of his aggressiveness out of him in order to control turnovers. I don’t mind turnovers as long as it comes with some explosive plays.
We'll need to rely on outlets – and Saquon is a good one to have – but in pass pro he's part of the problem, and as an outlet he'll usually be shadowed by a defender.
This off season, C + G (plus cornerback) will be a priority.
2 of 3 dudes are on the OL. *ugh*
Feels like we're on the plus side of coaching talent and prep.
But still behind the curve when it comes to talent on the field.
I’m concerned though that we are seeing some of the same stuff at the end of Eli’s career. After years of awful OL play, Eli got gun shy and missed throws he should have taken. Starting to see that with Jones a bit too.
I do worry Judge coached a lot of his aggressiveness out of him in order to control turnovers. I don’t mind turnovers as long as it comes with some explosive plays.
I dont think its OL that has made him gun shy, i think it was the Joe Judge era that made hik gun shy..
They basically had an offense that told him just dont turn the ball over and that is in his head, i thjnk Daboll is trying to get that out of him..
You hesrd Daboll say in the offseason they want Jones to take chances
I think Jones sees it but he doesnt take chances
Quote:
Sy is right: there were guys open downfield all day. Everyone saw it in the section and when Jones went somewhere else, the audible groans around us were obvious. During the peak Eli years, when we saw it, usually he did too and let it rip. Completion or not, he could always recognize the deep shot.
I think Jones sees it but he doesnt take chances
Yep me too. This is why he does it sometimes and not others. One thing we know is that if Daboll can't change him, he will move on. Daboll doesn't seem to have any issues moving on from big name players
I don't think either is a savior per se, but getting more options for the interior line to play with combos would be nice.
I can live with INTs if you are being agressive and in the end you are throwing 2 or 3 tds a game..
I can take INTs when you are being a game manager and Jones needs to realize this, open it up
just because the guy is open doesnt mean he ran the right route. I have a feeling this is giving Jones a moment to pause and why he keeps going to Shepard who he trusts.
Judge coached like he had an elite defense and could just win 17-7 games every week
There is questions regarding Jones' ability to see the field well enough.
Which is it? Combo of both? If the vast majority of the issue is the line directly in front of him, how could he be expected to "take chances"? You can't step into a long ball if there is no time to do so. Hence, the back foot throw comments from some. Frankly, when Jones had time, he went downfield with authority. Look at the throws on the TD drive when he had a little time. He looked damned good on that drive.
I'd like to see ONE game with Jones having an average to above average clean pocket. Just one.
As of yet, I don't see it from Jones and I'd give him a similar moniker that you did for Mayfield, a back up somewhere next season. Yet with a 2-0 start and looking at some other teams in the league, I don't see us bad enough to be in a position to draft "our guy" next year.
Knowing its early, do you think next year's QB crop will be good enough where we can get someone if we picked in the 10-12 range?
Having said that DJ needs to let it rip downfield if he does see open WR's. The question is does he see those open WR's.
Don't know...
For me...I actually think Brederson is a better OG than Lemieux.
The Giants OL will have issues against the Cowboys front 7 defensive speed if they play the same way next week.
Sy you continue to add unbelievable value to BBI.
The LG situation needs to get better for sure and Glowinski I think will be better when the Center is a bit stronger (whether through health or a switch).
I don't think either is a savior per se, but getting more options for the interior line to play with combos would be nice.
_____________________________________________________
You have to hope they don’t need to rush Gates back before he is really ready. That won’t go well. Unless Lemieux has improved quite a bit by recovery from being out last year and this year, he becomes just another body to try out at LG (and maybe Center). Bredeson and Lemieux at LG and C may be better than Feliciano and anyone.
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The D has the ability to keep games close but the offense has to get more points.
I think this Dallas game is huge with Chicago the following week 4-0 puts them in a good situation.
Has DJ gained that timing and trust with this group? Outside of Shep, and maybe James... I don't see it.
We know DJ, OL need to get better, but are we hampering ourselves with the WR rotation?
Quote:
.... anyone have an update on Shane Lemieux or Nick Gates? Do we have any hope of seeing Gates this year?
I don't think either is a savior per se, but getting more options for the interior line to play with combos would be nice.
_____________________________________________________
You have to hope they don’t need to rush Gates back before he is really ready. That won’t go well. Unless Lemieux has improved quite a bit by recovery from being out last year and this year, he becomes just another body to try out at LG (and maybe Center). Bredeson and Lemieux at LG and C may be better than Feliciano and anyone.
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Yeah, I'm not expecting either to be a huge/immediate upgrade. Mostly would like to have some options and was curious. Gates in particular looked really good, but given the injury and his time off, I agree that our expectations should be limited.
I got a chuckle out of one line "a questionable approach by McAdoo" You can say that about his entire 2nd year here.
Thanks for the great review.
I’m not really expecting this to get better which is why it’s really important to get KT fully with the program. Of course we played two teams with tough dynamic interior players, the Boys don’t have that so will be an interesting watch.
The deep shots we are going to get this year are going to come off PA when the run game is working and crappier interior DLs.
Players like this bring the juice and energy to a whole unit. Seems like a great glue guy on the field and in the locker room. Refreshing to see.
If Jones can’t adjust threw a full offseason and this problem consists all year, he doesn’t have the make up to be a starting QB in this league. You have to adapt to survive.
Is it Jones or is it the OL? The answer to this question has become one of the most fervent debates in the history of BBI. The answer is most likely both. Jones doesn't see the whole field and misses seeing open receivers even when he has time. But he frequently does not have enough time because his OL can't pass block. I think he's the most pressured QB through two games. Knowing that might encourage him to throw the ball within one or two seconds even when his OL gives him more time. His WRs are also pedestrian, which mean it typically takes them longer to separate.
Jones is a FA after this season. Retaining him on the FT will cost $32M IIRC. I don't expect him to play well enough to justify using the FT on him, or to sign him to a long-term contract. And if that happens, then we may never have a definitive answer to this question, but at least we won't need to wonder about it anymore.
Carolina beat themselves with turnovers, drops, missed throws, and penalties. The game was there to be won and they didn’t.
The Giants managed to avoid beating themselves, and sprinkled in enough good plays to take it.
Sy, do you think our slow starts on O are partially Kafka using formations etc to feel out how the opponents will respond. (The scripted starts.) But since we’re not sustaining early drives we’re still doing that into the 2nd quarter?
Is it Jones or is it the OL? The answer to this question has become one of the most fervent debates in the history of BBI. The answer is most likely both. Jones doesn't see the whole field and misses seeing open receivers even when he has time. But he frequently does not have enough time because his OL can't pass block. I think he's the most pressured QB through two games. Knowing that might encourage him to throw the ball within one or two seconds even when his OL gives him more time. His WRs are also pedestrian, which mean it typically takes them longer to separate.
Jones is a FA after this season. Retaining him on the FT will cost $32M IIRC. I don't expect him to play well enough to justify using the FT on him, or to sign him to a long-term contract. And if that happens, then we may never have a definitive answer to this question, but at least we won't need to wonder about it anymore.
That
No to mention 2015 was under Coughlin who always had a big hand in the offense.
Your paragraph on Carolina and their QB troubles is downright scary. I also recall that they used all seven picks in the 2020 draft on defense.
Matt Rhule likely won't be there next year.
Funny how much better dex looks playing between OC and OG
Little more fire too
Liking wink a lot. Much more fire and attitude with D
Talent important but that’s half the battle on that side of the ball
it looked like the Panthers were getting a great jump off the ball. part of why I dont like having an inexperienced C.
If you look, the Panthers get the jump on both run & pass plays which really ruined our ability to execute
Players like this bring the juice and energy to a whole unit. Seems like a great glue guy on the field and in the locker room. Refreshing to see.
Great guy to have on a D. Swag and being able to back it up is infectious
Cost effective, solid signing.
Our OL was more porous vs Carolina than Tennessee, Imho, so he likely still has DCarr syndrome, until he gets some confidence in the OL( if they can give him reason to be). Especially since he’s slower than desired on his reads.
But Feliciano is just having too many negative plays and is usually overmatched. If he is injured, as someone above says, why are the offensive minded HC and OC starting him. He was always a stop-gap replacement for our 'Don't sleep on 'Pio' position.
It's clear Dabs and Kafka think right now that Ezeudu is floundering, but what the hey? Yes, they're trying to win, but all this talk of aiming at 4 - 0 start and how critical Dallas game is, my goodness, this season is about the roster we have now.
There are so many basic needs: OL at C (Jimmy G), WRs, ILBs, TE, Corners,etc., never mind how QB shakes out.
Let Ezeudu take his lumps and see if Josh/Ben/Glow can be better. It can't be too much worse than what we're seeing now. LOL, it might be to start.