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| Jones has done enough to win the first two games, so that’s definitely progress. But there needs to be an understanding of the lens on Jones’ evaluation from Daboll and new general manager Joe Schoen. This isn’t like Jones’ second or third season when he had time on his side. When Schoen decided not to exercise Jones’ fifth-year option for 2023, this became a make-or-break season for the 25-year-old. So the stakes are much higher. Essentially, Jones needs to play well enough convince the new regime that he’s worthy of $31.5 million on the franchise tag in 2023. Otherwise, Schoen and Daboll will embark on a search for a quarterback to build around in the draft. They aligned themselves to take that path by declining Jones’ option. Daboll and Schoen have seen first-hand the difference an elite quarterback makes. Daboll has five Super Bowl rings, thanks in large part to Tom Brady, from his time as a Patriots assistant, while Daboll and Schoen were part of the group in Buffalo that chose Josh Allen with the seventh pick in the 2018 draft. Allen is in the conversation for the best quarterback in the league, and the Bills are Super Bowl favorites. It’s important to keep all of that in mind while evaluating Jones this season, because the people who will make the ultimate decision on the quarterback’s future certainly will. |
LOL
He needs to improve quickly.
Duggan is my favorite writer on the Giants beat. His articles always have good insight.
and I hope the Giants are smart enough not to negotiate against themselves.
But nothing he wrote here is an original thought.
Agree with this. There’s no guarantee that a Brady, Allen, Mahomes type prospect will be available in the draft. There’s so many holes that need to be filled to give ANY new QB a viable foundation. A reasonable contract for DJ may still be the best bet for growth of the team.
It’s something written by a Giants beat writer, and a good one at that. That you don’t like to get your feelings hurt by something remotely negative about Jones deontology mean it’s not relevant.
I think he has picked up some bad habits and liabilities the last 2 years. I think getting the best out of him is a longshot. Not impossible, but unlikely.
Pretty much a poor outcome, tied to a mediocre QB for another three years.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
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I agree. If they don’t tag him, they can still sign Jones as a free agent, especially if he doesn’t get a good offer on the free agent market. The point is that, unless he is tagged, Jones’ future is in his hands. That future may or may not be with the Giants. I know I may be dreaming but if the Giants run off 10-11 wins, Jones may look pretty good to Seattle, Carolina, Houston.
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Yeah, I don't understand why this possibility is never considered.
Everyone seems to assume that if Jones has a decent year, he's going to get 30+ million from some team and Giant fans are adamant that it shouldn't be the Giants. But what if, even if Jones has a really good year, no team wants to pay him that kind of money, off just one really good year? Couldn't Jones and the Giants agree to a 2 yr contract for an amount most would consider reasonable (relatively) and let him (hopefully) prove he's worth a longer term deal?
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
Good post.
Yeah, this was real master of the obvious stuff from Duggan.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
I think this is a stretch. Why wasn’t the 5th year option exercised then?
I think it's a fair statement on how the evaluation of Jones has shifted this year (opinion on the franchise tag part specifically not withstanding). Given that his option wasn't picked up, Jones being "good enough not to loose" likely is no longer enough to retain him. So even if you don't hate Jones like some do, and I don't.... I do think it's fair to say that through 2 games, the needle has moved further towards Jones leaving after this year than staying.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
Yeah this is terrifying. We are currently doing a nice job of rebuilding. Prior to next season, there is one thing that could destroy our chances of building a competitive team this decade- extending Daniel Jones. If we do that, we have almost no chance to compete at the top of the league.
Mara is the risk. And it is a scary one for the fan base
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but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
I think this is a stretch. Why wasn’t the 5th year option exercised then?
Because it was a nice compromise between Daboll / Schoen and Mara. Conventional wisdom say trade the incumbent underperforming QB, Mara probably wanted to give the option. They met in the middle on keeping him and not picking up the option as I see it.
Which is why in the offseason I could see meeting in the middle being something like a 2 year $40M deal. I'd see that as a good case if they go to the playoffs. Mara might just win and get the long term deal.
Might seem out of place but I thought it was quite out of place for the owner to name the QB starter prior to the season as well.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
I agree 100%
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but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
Yeah this is terrifying. We are currently doing a nice job of rebuilding. Prior to next season, there is one thing that could destroy our chances of building a competitive team this decade- extending Daniel Jones. If we do that, we have almost no chance to compete at the top of the league.
Mara is the risk. And it is a scary one for the fan base
+1
This was something I was considering. Unless he has some kind of wild break out season in the 2nd half, which is a possibility with this staff, his talent and if some of the weapons/ol come along, I cant see him sniffing the franchise tag. But honestly, 1st rd QBs or QBs in any round are a crap shoot. If Jones can stay healthy and improve steadily to the point where you trust him to be a Phil Simms type QB, sign him.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
I disagree. Our $18 million dollar wide receiver saw 2 snaps last week, and our explosive WR who actually played relatively well when healthy isn't being given a pass and large snap share, either. He's not making decisions based on Mara's preconceived notions.
He's playing guys who he think can give us best chance to win. There were no tempting QBs available with our early picks. So Jones is getting an opportunity to prove himself. Whether we like it or not, Jones was actually the best option out there for 2022 other than Jimmy G.
Short of carrying this team to the conference championship or going to the pro bowl he is gone. Fair, not fair, who knows. But that's how it is. Jones is auditioning for his next team.
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but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
I disagree. Our $18 million dollar wide receiver saw 2 snaps last week, and our explosive WR who actually played relatively well when healthy isn't being given a pass and large snap share, either. He's not making decisions based on Mara's preconceived notions.
He's playing guys who he think can give us best chance to win. There were no tempting QBs available with our early picks. So Jones is getting an opportunity to prove himself. Whether we like it or not, Jones was actually the best option out there for 2022 other than Jimmy G.
Ummmmm last I checked Mara didn't get up and gush about KG this offseason and hand him a starting job. How can you not see the difference in that? I never said Jones would get played because of money, no one did. Mara loves him and clearly gives him different treatment. How you don't see that I don't know
Short of carrying this team to the conference championship or going to the pro bowl he is gone. Fair, not fair, who knows. But that's how it is. Jones is auditioning for his next team.
I really think it can't be stressed enough that typically an underperforming QB like Jones is traded when a new regime comes in. It's cleaner, you get a fresh start, you get to have "your guy" at QB. The fact that he wasn't is actually kind of a rare case. You are applying logic to it but there was nothing logical or smart about Mara naming Jones the starter before the season
A more likely outcome IMO is the Giants win 7-10 games against a soft schedule this year and they offer Jones a Jameis Winston type 2 year/$30M deal. Jones gets to go into camp as the presumptive starter next year and gets some $$$, while Deboll/Schoen can either draft a QB first round if they like someone, draft a developmental QB later on, or just ride it with Jones and Taylor again and keep their long-term QB options open while upgrading the roster with their QB only having a modest cap hit.
If the Giants are picking in the 12-20 range, it's going to be extremely expensive to trade up and get one of the top few QBs.
It's not a killer to keep riding with Jones for a few more years while looking for the right time to go all-in on a better QB. What the Giants have to avoid doing is getting into a Kirk Cousins type of contract where they are paying a huge cap hit to a QB who isn't a top 10 guy. That's a trap to avoid IMO.
They can easily negotiate a lower contract for year 5. Its not franchise tag or bust.
So, Jones. Jones is kind of similar to Cousins except maybe a little more mobile. Cousins has top level talent at the skill positions and always seems to have his share of doink games.
I admittedly was calling out for Tyrod after Sunday's first half.......
This team needs to find the guy that will elevate the talent around him. Cousins doesn't do it....neither does most of the QB's in the league. They guys that do win and win consistently.
Our options are in the draft or free agency...ala Lamar Jackson. We should focus on that. Schoen is.
So, Jones. Jones is kind of similar to Cousins except maybe a little more mobile. Cousins has top level talent at the skill positions and always seems to have his share of doink games.
I admittedly was calling out for Tyrod after Sunday's first half.......
This team needs to find the guy that will elevate the talent around him. Cousins doesn't do it....neither does most of the QB's in the league. They guys that do win and win consistently.
Our options are in the draft or free agency...ala Lamar Jackson. We should focus on that. Schoen is.
Jones hasn't produced in any way remotely close to Cousins in this league. That's saying a lot, because Cousins is fools.
It’s either a long term deal or he’s gone. The new regime isn’t going to wait another year to know if Jones is good or not.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
Fairly confident everyone will keeping their shit
The fact that they didn't pick up Jones's 5th year option was quite a tell to me. I didn't see that coming because I was convinced, despite what Mara said about Schoen controlling all football operations, that Jones was Mara's adopted son, and Mara would retain any final decision(s) on anything Jones.
But I could also see Schoen and Mara reaching a compromise on Jones last April. Mara would give up the 5th year option, but Schoen would have to evaluate Jones for one more year.
While I hope Schoen does have the decision-making gavel for all personnel decisions, in my mind it's still a big TBD the weight Mara carries on the final decision on Jones next off-season.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
This is not college where you recruit a QB. Lots of things have to go your way and then your evaluation has to be really good. Record, timing, talent in draft, etc. all play factors.
JS will try to make a move in the draft if they like someone but it very well may not be enough and the Giants have to find a alternative.
Keep building the team and strike when possible. It can take years and many times a HC change occurs as well.
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
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In comment 15825208 WillieYoung said:
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
Nobody hates Jones. You have irrational support for him and have to demonize others to justify your position. He's been terrible and somehow it's easier to blame us.
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that have watched John Mara and the Giants for all this time and still think he's going to be hands off on the Jones decision but I certainly can't get there.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
I wasn't a they are keeping Abrams for sure guy but I definitely thought it was possible. No complaints from me though, they made more changes than I thought even if I really wanted to see them move on from Siam too. I also thought Brown was a good snag.
I guess I've always thought of Mara more as an appearances guy, he always seemed like a guy that wanted to do just enough to keep the pitchforks away while still getting what he wants. To me, he had to do this and sell the "autonomy" to get people to put down their pitchforks.
The way he's handled himself with this Jones stuff to me very much says, I'm giving you autonomy unless I really care about something. It was most definitely a public toe stepping on Daboll and JS to say what he did about Jones starting. To me it shows a lack of real commitment to being hands off and something he is forcing himself to do because of the headwinds he faced to the old ways.
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In comment 15825211 Sean said:
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In comment 15825208 WillieYoung said:
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
Nobody hates Jones. You have irrational support for him and have to demonize others to justify your position. He's been terrible and somehow it's easier to blame us.
Luckily there is enough talent on this roster to be 2-0 despite how terrible Jones has been.
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are without a doubt Jones haters, my friend. Don't go on Twitter if you don't want to see him. In the aftermath of every win, there are countless people solely posting All-22 videos of every time Jones misses a receiver.
I'm not lumping you in with that, but let's be real. It's a very real thing.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think a lot of things have occurred in that front office since January that have been markedly different than what many of the more vocal BBI posters were expecting. I can find plenty of threads that speak to how folks said the Giants were never going to change with respect to any of their internal hiring processes, legacy personnel, external candidates considered, etc. Yet, they did.
Daniel Jones not getting that 5th year extension was driven by the very guys they brought in to change things. I actually don't have a hard time seeing that Mara will be consulted on the Jones decision and agree with what the GM and Coach tell him...
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
What we need to see is several drives a game like the one at the start of the third quarter. Jones looked like a quarterback you can win on that score.
What we need to see is several drives a game like the one at the start of the third quarter. Jones looked like a quarterback you can win on that score.
Very fair Joe as always.
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In comment 15825230 NoGainDayne said:
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that have watched John Mara and the Giants for all this time and still think he's going to be hands off on the Jones decision but I certainly can't get there.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
I wasn't a they are keeping Abrams for sure guy but I definitely thought it was possible. No complaints from me though, they made more changes than I thought even if I really wanted to see them move on from Siam too. I also thought Brown was a good snag.
I guess I've always thought of Mara more as an appearances guy, he always seemed like a guy that wanted to do just enough to keep the pitchforks away while still getting what he wants. To me, he had to do this and sell the "autonomy" to get people to put down their pitchforks.
The way he's handled himself with this Jones stuff to me very much says, I'm giving you autonomy unless I really care about something. It was most definitely a public toe stepping on Daboll and JS to say what he did about Jones starting. To me it shows a lack of real commitment to being hands off and something he is forcing himself to do because of the headwinds he faced to the old ways.
There is definitely some truth to this. Although, I don’t understand the loyalty to Jones if he has another typical year for him. I could always understand it with Eli, just not Jones.
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
Daboll was named OC in Buffalo in January 2018. Taylor was traded in March 2018. They drafted Allen in April 2018.
Schoen was hired as assistant GM in May 2017.
1. Giants finish around 7-10, 8-9, or even 9-8 with Daniel Jones continuing to be Daniel Jones - flashes of athleticism, surrounded by bad play, low offensive output, and bad instincts/turnovers that consistently put us behind the 8-ball.
2. Giants draft in the 12-20 range next year.
3. Giants have to spend significant draft capital to trade up.
4. Because of 1, 2, and 3, Mara meddles and makes the decision more difficult for Schoen/Daboll. Maybe he even prevents them from trading up to get their guy. To be clear, he has ALREADY meddled by lauding and making excuses for DJ in the pre-season, which suggests that DJ is held to a different standard than other QBs, so just imagine what he'll say/do if we go 9-8 and sneak into the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is a symptom of everything that's wrong with this franchise and John Mara is the most important person who doesn't see it. We're still in trouble so long as he thinks his opinion is relevant.
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Was a Tyrod led bills team that snuck into the playoffs if i recall correctly?
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
Daboll was named OC in Buffalo in January 2018. Taylor was traded in March 2018. They drafted Allen in April 2018.
Schoen was hired as assistant GM in May 2017.
...welp! lol
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
There are a lot of dummies who can't spell "led" also.
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as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
Good post.
Agreed. The only little wrinkle I would add is what if Jones plays JUST a little bit better...and the Giants win enough games where they are picking in the 20s...and the QBs that might be available in the teens, with a trade up don't necessarily give one the warm and fuzzies...and there isn't any stud QB in FA that jumps out at you...maybe Jimmy G being the exception and how the hell do the Niners let him walk after the injury to the kid?
We all expected the team to go 6-11 or 5-12 and watch Jones struggle--this could still happen, but if it ends up somewhere in the 9-10 win range with Jones looking OK--not great, but OK, then what?
Would be nice to have our own Allen or Herbert.
Not that we had the chance to draft those two or something.
some one I know and love just emailed me a retort on this - "except for when it counts?"
so let me say this:
The last two games have been great, and it's true the offense did just enough to win. But the first half of both games was not a great look for a franchise QB. A franchise QB gets behind center, looks like they are in control, and takes his team down the field and scores TDs like they are flexing some muscle. They do no save as a once a game serving. And they certainly don't hold back after getting a turnover with great field position and routinely not punch it in. That may work against teams like Tenn and Carolina, but it is not a recipe for success.
I need to see some QB muscle being flexed more routinely and not only on an emergency basis.
I have very little respect left for Mara's choices but if things were that dysfunctional Daboll and Schoen wouldn't be here, and Joe Judge probably would be.
DJ will realize that no other team is paying 30M/ and he will agree to stay for a reasonable amount
NYG get to delay the qb decision one more year and focus on other spots like WR, CB...
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In comment 15825036 PatersonPlank said:
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as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
Good post.
Agreed. The only little wrinkle I would add is what if Jones plays JUST a little bit better...and the Giants win enough games where they are picking in the 20s...and the QBs that might be available in the teens, with a trade up don't necessarily give one the warm and fuzzies...and there isn't any stud QB in FA that jumps out at you...maybe Jimmy G being the exception and how the hell do the Niners let him walk after the injury to the kid?
We all expected the team to go 6-11 or 5-12 and watch Jones struggle--this could still happen, but if it ends up somewhere in the 9-10 win range with Jones looking OK--not great, but OK, then what?
Quit looking for reasons to keep Jones. He is not a good passer and not a good qb. You want to go places, we can't be dependent on the field goal kicker being perfect.
So far, I've seen nothing to make me think he's long the long term answer.
Why do you talk like Skeletor? Sickening fools? Lol
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
Some of you are just weird - Mara is NOT going to stand in Schoen and Daboll's way when they cut bait.
And ok, perhaps there are not Jones "haters" as in the definition of hate. But there are a rabid 6-12 that without fail will knock down any praise for him. Call it what you want - detractors, dissenters, haters, realists. But no matter how small the praise the knives are out.
And just because some pass a mild kudo to him doesn't make them a apologists. After the Rams game last year I decided he is not the franchise QB. I still believe it and am pretty certain he will be a FA elsewhere next season. But that does not mean I will not give him praise when warranted. I want to see the team win and be competitive. He is a good guy that works hard and puts the time in. He does not have the goods to carry a team, IMHO.
FWIW
1. Giants finish around 7-10, 8-9, or even 9-8 with Daniel Jones continuing to be Daniel Jones - flashes of athleticism, surrounded by bad play, low offensive output, and bad instincts/turnovers that consistently put us behind the 8-ball.
2. Giants draft in the 12-20 range next year.
3. Giants have to spend significant draft capital to trade up.
4. Because of 1, 2, and 3, Mara meddles and makes the decision more difficult for Schoen/Daboll. Maybe he even prevents them from trading up to get their guy. To be clear, he has ALREADY meddled by lauding and making excuses for DJ in the pre-season, which suggests that DJ is held to a different standard than other QBs, so just imagine what he'll say/do if we go 9-8 and sneak into the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is a symptom of everything that's wrong with this franchise and John Mara is the most important person who doesn't see it. We're still in trouble so long as he thinks his opinion is relevant.
You really went off the rails at number four. Cmon man.
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Or nothing. It's the stupidest take I can think of. So Schoen isn't allowed to offer him a 2 year 30 million dollar contract in case he is mediocre and the Giants are still not certain. It's 31.5 or nothing. I guess being creative is just too hard to figure.
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
This is a bit misleading. Cap hit in a given year tells you little about what a QB is getting paid. Matt Ryan is getting paid $50MM over 2 years guaranteed. THat is $25MM. Wilson is getting $160 over 4 years guaranteed (i.e. $40 per).
Additionally, there are people on that list that I would take DJ over - Wentz, Darnold, Ryan. And there is almost no one on that list that I would really want at their current contract - Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, Burrow, Deshaun (not counting legal woes). the rest are either not enough of an improvement over our current situation or just too expensive.
I still think it is big contract or nothing for DJ here, and that means probably nothing. But if he plays OK and more importantly we don't have a better option (high draft pick is just too much to go for and can't afford Lamar) I would be OK with giving him a mid range deal. Heck maybe Mara's big plan is to tread water for a few years and then go after Arch!
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
That is important. The reality is, most owners meddle, especially at the QB position. The Eagles process gets praised here, but their owner probably meddles more than Mara. Ask Doug Pederson what he thinks about having to meet with the owner weekly to go over playcalling. However, they’ve won and that scathing article regarding the Eagles about their front office is now forgotten.
Your point is valid though if the Giants go 9-8/10-7 and sneak into a playoff spot. Mara may prefer status quo. But, as Joe Schoen said in his intro presser part of his job is to sell the owner on what is best for the franchise.
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at all.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
That is important. The reality is, most owners meddle, especially at the QB position. The Eagles process gets praised here, but their owner probably meddles more than Mara. Ask Doug Pederson what he thinks about having to meet with the owner weekly to go over playcalling. However, they’ve won and that scathing article regarding the Eagles about their front office is now forgotten.
Your point is valid though if the Giants go 9-8/10-7 and sneak into a playoff spot. Mara may prefer status quo. But, as Joe Schoen said in his intro presser part of his job is to sell the owner on what is best for the franchise.
What is your definition of meddling? If I had a $4 Billion enterprise I am absolutely going to keep tabs on what goes on. What owner of any company is not going to question his executives and VPs.
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In comment 15825519 PaulN said:
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Or nothing. It's the stupidest take I can think of. So Schoen isn't allowed to offer him a 2 year 30 million dollar contract in case he is mediocre and the Giants are still not certain. It's 31.5 or nothing. I guess being creative is just too hard to figure.
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
This is a bit misleading. Cap hit in a given year tells you little about what a QB is getting paid. Matt Ryan is getting paid $50MM over 2 years guaranteed. THat is $25MM. Wilson is getting $160 over 4 years guaranteed (i.e. $40 per).
Additionally, there are people on that list that I would take DJ over - Wentz, Darnold, Ryan. And there is almost no one on that list that I would really want at their current contract - Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, Burrow, Deshaun (not counting legal woes). the rest are either not enough of an improvement over our current situation or just too expensive.
I still think it is big contract or nothing for DJ here, and that means probably nothing. But if he plays OK and more importantly we don't have a better option (high draft pick is just too much to go for and can't afford Lamar) I would be OK with giving him a mid range deal. Heck maybe Mara's big plan is to tread water for a few years and then go after Arch!
For the purposes of the suggested 2 year 30 million dollar deal there's not much creative you can do with it. And the cap hit is what really matters in terms of team-building.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
Ownership meddling occurs more often when things aren't going well. As the Giants have gone bad, Mara has been more involved to try to 'fix it', by his own admission.
If the Giants finish this season playing respectable football in the same way they started this season, I find it highly unrealistic Mara is going to choose that moment to take the wheel and start issuing edicts. He will be too busy taking a victory lap that it's not another bad year after a near decade of bad years.
Again, I have a low opinion of him. But this scenario doesn't fit with the person.
Yup.
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
Can he still force it? Sure, he’s the owner. But nothing that has transpired this offseason suggests that will happen unless Jones has a big year.
Again, I have a low opinion of him. But this scenario doesn't fit with the person.
most of the conspiracy theories re: mara don't add up. he's been a meddling spineless pushover afraid of making decisions for a decade, but in just a few months a spine will emerge and he's going to overrule his new regime in a way he didn't when they declined the 5yo a couple months ago.
meanwhile has anyone left the organization and said a bad thing about working for him?
sometimes the obvious answer is the right one, and the obvious one in mara's case is that he's just not good at hiring decisions. i'd be surprised if schoen ever does anything that impresses mara more than the fact that he led him away from the flores landmine - which he no doubt would have stepped on if left to his own judgement.
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
I am confident, he chose his GM and will not get in his way.
i think his true come to jesus moment was the flores lawsuit. we all know how badly mara probably wanted to hire him if not for schoen correctly choosing what to him was a more known quantity. if mara didn't know to stay out of his GMs way ahead of that he surely thanked the stars after the fact.
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I think so too. I think Mara had his 'Come to Jesus' moment this past offseason when this franchise was a laughingstock on non sports shows following us doing QB sneaks on 3rd & long.
i think his true come to jesus moment was the flores lawsuit. we all know how badly mara probably wanted to hire him if not for schoen correctly choosing what to him was a more known quantity. if mara didn't know to stay out of his GMs way ahead of that he surely thanked the stars after the fact.
This is an interesting point. I also thought Mara not speaking at training camp was noteworthy.
yeah i mean i love everything so far but it could very well just be 2 games like Rhule starting 2-0 last year. my point was less predicting his future success and more commentary on the bullet dodged with flores. its not at all impossible that he still would have filed his suit against the nfl/dolphins after getting hired by nyg. that would have been a mess.
Can he still force it? Sure, he’s the owner. But nothing that has transpired this offseason suggests that will happen unless Jones has a big year.
This. If he was going to force him here he would have had them pick up the option under the guise of a two year trial period because the coach is new
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
No, I don't think so. It's not Mara's place to suggest. He is to be consulted with and advised as to the GM's decision. He may have questions but it won't ever reach suggestion or ultimatum.
If Schoen and Daboll did it right when they decided on no 5th year option then they should have set the bar as to what is needed/required from Jones in 2022 to earn a rethink on an extension as a Giant. And that bar should have been communicated to the owners.
And since this is just fairly easy and logical steps any intelligent GM would have taken, I am assuming Schoen did it.
His ineptitude has been marked by inconsistency and then frustration. And those two weaknesses as an owner make him unpredictable when the going gets tough.
The best thing the Giants have going for them right now is the lack of holdovers from the Reese/Coughlin championship years. Mara has no old dogs to go back to who remind him of the good times.
The most dangerous thing in the organization is if hier apparent Tim McDonnell is as big of a butthole as the reporting over the Winter implied.
I'm not kidding when I say this, but the nadir may have been the Clown Central photo created by Eric's daughter. I want to say a few days later Judge got so defensive in a presser that he used the phrase "this isn't some clown show" trying to defend the organization.
I don't recall if any Asshats confirmed it, but I think that photo made some waves at 1925 Giants Way...
See I've explained this already on this thread but I'll do it again clearly.
Take a look at new coaching staffs / GMs with incumbent unsuccessful QBs more often than not they are traded. So Jones not being traded is more of a reflection of that influence than not.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that like most new regimes BD and JS would have preferred their own guy at QB but compromised on not picking up the option with the Mara clan to find middle ground. I don't consider it some kind of proof at all, not sure why people throw that around so much. I don't think Mara wants to steamroll his way over his GM anyway, I think much like the worry is this offseason there will be some grey area with ground to meet in the middle and it will continue to get DJ more of a chance than he deserves.
I think it’s likely Schoen/Daboll view Jones as a stop gap and it buys them a year. They will really be on the clock once they bring in their QB.
Lastly, Mara foolishly spoke about Jones on the day Schoen was introduced, but has been silent since. It’s also been the first time I can remember where he didn’t have a state of the franchise presser during training camp.
Mara speaking at the press conference naming Jones the starter I would say quite likely was a consensus about how all the Mara's feel about Jones. And that's where I think the danger lies too. I think they still probably believe that this Giants tradition and loyalty needs to be upheld on an ongoing basis and in that tradition I do believe they looked at Jones and said here is a strapping young chap, a smart hard worker! We will mold another Eli out of him!
I don't think there is anything to step away or back towards, I think they are fairly entrenched in this. Now I do not think he could stink this year and they could lose and Mara sell that to JS (and yes I do believe there is will need to be consensus building) That was the danger of DG IMO, I think DG still had to be sold on the things the Mara's wanted there was just too much insular thinking and patting each other on the back rubber stamping each others shitty ideas. I don't think any of the Mara's are bang their fist on the table and get their way types, I never said nor do I think they are going to ram DJ down anyone's throats.
I do think they would strongly advocate for keeping him on a short term deal if he keeps playing at this level and it's probably not going to be worth it for JS to piss off his boss and "co-workers" if he doesn't have a strong alternative lined up.
There is always a lot of grey area and this season is pointing to the grey the way it's heading. I'm happy for the wins. But those wins are making it ever more likely that Mara is going to be able to sell Jones. And I think that is the clear way to look at it.
P.S. RE Meddling: Most people that run multi-billion organizations family, not family, whatever do "meddle" run the business what have you. However, if they suck at it enough, they are consistently relieved of those duties. Now lord knows I don't expect that, but let's not pretend that it isn't a fair expectation for a business owner to stay out of the business. If their influence was as failure ridden as Mara's has that absolutely is a fair expectation in terms of this business size outside of the sports arena.
I think it’s likely Schoen/Daboll view Jones as a stop gap and it buys them a year. They will really be on the clock once they bring in their QB.
Lastly, Mara foolishly spoke about Jones on the day Schoen was introduced, but has been silent since. It’s also been the first time I can remember where he didn’t have a state of the franchise presser during training camp.
Here is where I am almost always at. I'm not saying the evidence I'm presenting proves that we only kept Jones because Mara wanted that, I'm not saying that at all.
It's the other side that basically wants to say, well we know Mara is hands off on this because the option wasn't picked up. And to that I say, woefully short of proof. Hence the perfectly reasonable scenario I presented. That's all really, I'd think Giants fans were tired of waving the mission accomplished banner on the "this front office is fixed" issue but wonder of wonders they are not.
I like to start out at trust but verify, but if upon investigation there proves to be reasons of distrust, I'm more of a verify then trust kind of person. I also thing that Mara talking about Jones thing is highly likely an iceberg situation. If he's ripping off Jones is the starter stuff publicly what was it like in the building? Did he really change after that or did he just realize (and hear) that he didn't have that kind of leeway at all with the fan base anymore.
This is a great litmus test though, if DJ isn't a Giant next year I'll have way more faith that he's serious about letting the professionals do their jobs.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Because YOUR qb evaluation couldn’t be wrong it would have to be Mara meddling? I guess that could be the refuge for a frail ego. And possibly the only reason to cling to the Mara loves Jones conspiracy. It’s quite a little safe space you built for yourself.
This is one of the dumbest ideas I have seen on here. It makes no sense
This shit is a business. Winning is good. Pissing off your customers is bad. Jones has no station, has accomplished nothing, not popular among the fan base, has not demonstrated he can win consistently.
What does Mara love about him? I guarantee in his decades as an owner he has let go of many players he liked personally.
If we were talking about Eli I could consider the possibility it has merit. Dude has been here 3 years. Mara does not give a shit about him.
What if the professionals want him? Well good for them and I hope they are right if they sign him and it isn't signing us up for above average as our peak as I think and am very much entitled to that opinion.
I don't think it's a good idea, and I don't think if Jones keeps playing like this that he will be kept without Mara influence.
And hold up a BIG second. You need a jump to conclusions mat. I'm simply saying projecting this QB play forward I wouldn't think any coaching staff would want to keep on a QB like this without other influences.
Let me alleviate you of your conspiracy theories, I'm perfectly fine being wrong about Jones, I'm perfectly fine with the idea that I might not like him but JS and DB do. I absolutely think the way Mara has talked about Jones and generally conducted himself is highly unprofessional and shitty so I lean towards having little to no faith in him and his influence.
Perhaps you'd like to point me to the part where I said my opinions were the gospel angry bear?
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try to meddle to get Jones' fifth year option picked up? If he did why was he not successful? If he did not, why will he meddle this coming off-season?
See I've explained this already on this thread but I'll do it again clearly.
Take a look at new coaching staffs / GMs with incumbent unsuccessful QBs more often than not they are traded. So Jones not being traded is more of a reflection of that influence than not.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that like most new regimes BD and JS would have preferred their own guy at QB but compromised on not picking up the option with the Mara clan to find middle ground. I don't consider it some kind of proof at all, not sure why people throw that around so much. I don't think Mara wants to steamroll his way over his GM anyway, I think much like the worry is this offseason there will be some grey area with ground to meet in the middle and it will continue to get DJ more of a chance than he deserves.
My questions were not meant to come off as me saying “I know Mara does not meddle”. They were legitimate questions. I also did not see that Sean had asked this prior in the thread.
Mara does not want to steamroll his GM, but Mara will name the starting qb? Mara wants to get his way behind the scenes, but publicly James Jones the starter? It is not the owner’s place to set the depth chart of a position, to me that is steamrolling and not working behind the scenes.
LOL! 10 years of abysmal football and a medium coke. And somehow you think Mara’s business acumen is a benefit here?
It would be best to stay out of Jones discussions but he did stand up for him (Jones) when JS was hired. I think his words were "There are a lot of people who believe in him in the building". Tough to say with certainty who those people are.
he needs to be a LOT better to warrant staying- right now its not even close--- has not shown to be the guy at all.
Have your cake and eat it too.
How many consistently good teams have ownership that gets it right virtually always and never seem to misstep or talk out of place:
Pittsburg
Kansas City
New England
Baltimore - because of Ozzie
Green Bay(?)
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
The only hope is that Daboll is constructing an extensive reel of Jones not pulling the trigger on tight windows and reminding the owner that two of the four Lombardis in the case are there because #10 had no such hesitation, regardless of what was on the line. That might have been Eli’s greatest trait beyond his between-game preparation, and few outside the fan base seem to understand that.
If there was ever a time to employ the Ozzie Smith “We love you, but we have a plan in place, so go get the best deal you can get out there and come back with it and we’ll discuss options”. They simply cannot let fear of losing this player complicate the path forward, and I agree with those who feel the decision on the fifth year option is encouraging.
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The 2023 QB class is considered to be strong and any of them will be cheaper than Jones.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Not to mention that QB class is off to a weak start, with only Stroud and Young looking like pro QBs better than Jones
Managing up.
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The 2023 QB class is considered to be strong and any of them will be cheaper than Jones.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Sticking with Jones is wasting another 2-3 years.
Managing up.
Thanks. All of the good GMs manage up, but when you have a good owner like Steve B, you can use the Ozzie technique most effectively.
I forgot to add that “discussing options” with DJ on an extension involves being quite up front about a rookie draft pick coming on board in ‘23.
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Winning is good. Pissing off your customers is bad.
LOL! 10 years of abysmal football and a medium coke. And somehow you think Mara’s business acumen is a benefit here?
When someone writes a book about the Giants from 2012-2021 I truly hope it's titled "10 years of bad football and a medium pepsi"
The only hope is that Daboll is constructing an extensive reel of Jones not pulling the trigger on tight windows and reminding the owner that two of the four Lombardis in the case are there because #10 had no such hesitation, regardless of what was on the line. That might have been Eli’s greatest trait beyond his between-game preparation, and few outside the fan base seem to understand that.
If there was ever a time to employ the Ozzie Smith “We love you, but we have a plan in place, so go get the best deal you can get out there and come back with it and we’ll discuss options”. They simply cannot let fear of losing this player complicate the path forward, and I agree with those who feel the decision on the fifth year option is encouraging.
What I've seen from Daboll so far is encouraging. He seems keenly aware of his QBs limitations and coaching around them.
There's no reason for me to believe at this point that Daboll (or Schoen) want to tie their success or failure to Daniel Jones as their QB.
Perhaps being in playoff contention will have an impact on Mara, but that's a team accomplishment and really not relevant in the evaluation of any particular player.
The most relevant example is Tyrod Taylor, who was the QB when the Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs in 2017. Buffalo traded Taylor and made the moves necessary to acquire the #7 overall pick, which was used on Josh Allen.
@DDuggan21
Have encountered some pushback on framing the Daniel Jones evaluation as franchise tag or bust. Really think people are overthinking this. If he doesn’t play well enough to demand the tag, why would anyone think the Giants would be interested in a ~$20M/year extension?
I agree. I want to see through game 8(well not really), but it is time to look elsewhere.
They do NOT believe in Daniel Jones.
FACT.
They told him to prove it.
Be objective, please.
Levis, Richardson, et al arent looking great out of the gate this year and dont look anywhere close to being better than Jones
Its not just about Jones, its about who can they find to replace him
Tyrod takes the job in his 2nd year here while NYG sees what their options are in 2023 draft
They most likely open up 2023 with TT and a rook. Very similar to where Pittsburgh is right now.
All that does is delay it for a year, then what? So they go 7-10 this year and next year and are still without a good QB?
Does anyone who has seen Levis, Richardson, et al think they will be better pros than Jones? So far they look like Trubiskys AT BEST. Van Dyke looked lousy vs A&M just as all the QBs not named Stroud/Young havent looked good vs decent teams so far
The Steelers took Pickett and are praying he is not a Trubisky. Good luck with that
The "get rid of Jones no matter what and figure it out later" plan isnt very enticing when you look at the QB landscape
Levis, Richardson, et al arent looking great out of the gate this year and dont look anywhere close to being better than Jones
Its not just about Jones, its about who can they find to replace him
No, it literally does not have to account for who replaces DJ.
The way the QB process works is, you take your shot on a rookie QB, you get 4-5 years to determine if you've found your franchise QB, and you stack your roster accordingly during that rookie contract window. And if he's a truly elite QB1, you start adjusting your roster from the QB's second contract on.
What you don't do is leave the car in neutral while you go shopping for a new one.
I think the philosophy of “we need to keep Jones and pay him $20M because there is no one better” is so backwards.
The Bears are better off with Fields and he’s a lot cheaper than Trubisky is (who Steeler fans already want benched.)
Where is the production that we will so badly miss with Jones that supposedly cannot be replaced? Jones through a killer red zone pick in the Tennessee game and had a dropped pick 6 in the Carolina game.
What seems to be their criteria:
1.) Strong arm
2.) very mobile
3.) tough physically and mentally
4.) confident
5.) Tall - over 6'3"
Some QBs probably do not meet all that - so what would be waiverable - probably height a little bit.
If you are weeding through the available QBs eligible for next years draft, I would start there, especially on the physical side.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
You can't ask a potter to take a plate and change it into a bowl, but give him some raw clay and he'll make whatever shape you want.
If you trust BD and the rest of the staff to be good at molding a new QB, like was done with JA, getting a new QB in the draft is the way to go.
Lmao. Nice post.
Maybe it’s the same with Richardson? Maybe Jordan Travis continues to improve and can similar QB to hurts.
he needs to be a LOT better to warrant staying- right now its not even close--- has not shown to be the guy at all.
Let me tell you something, that throwing receivers open is a definitely a void in Jones's game. And it manifests itself in those moments when he can't pull the trigger. Because the guys who can do that - Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Allen - have such confidence in their arm that they are absolutely convinced they can fit the ball into the tightest of windows. Jones absolutely doesn't have that confidence.
And he probably shouldn't because he doesn't have the skills to have that level of confidence...
This is so true. Not a Giant fan, just a member of the DJFC.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
Does anyone who has seen Levis, Richardson, et al think they will be better pros than Jones? So far they look like Trubiskys AT BEST. Van Dyke looked lousy vs A&M just as all the QBs not named Stroud/Young havent looked good vs decent teams so far
I don't know if Levis, Richardson, Van Dyke, Stroud, Young, Hooker, etc will be better pros than Jones.
But I am absolutely convinced that are much more physically talented that Jones. You can't teach the physical tools. Those are innate. And too many on this board fail to see that it's never been more important in the NFL to have elite physical skills at the QB position.
It's an off-script league. Unless you have Brady, you'd better have a QB with the skills to make off-script plays. We don't have that right now.
Love Allen. Also like how Diggs can run 15 yards down the sideline stop on a dime and the corner is 6-7 yards off him. Just like Monday night. Defenses sure have that type of fear of Giants WR's don't they?
Some criticisms of Jones of fair. As always, you never hear the other side of things.
You can't ask a potter to take a plate and change it into a bowl, but give him some raw clay and he'll make whatever shape you want.
If you trust BD and the rest of the staff to be good at molding a new QB, like was done with JA, getting a new QB in the draft is the way to go.
Great post. Couldn't agree more.
Levis, Richardson, et al arent looking great out of the gate this year and dont look anywhere close to being better than Jones
Its not just about Jones, its about who can they find to replace him
Just a bad take, from start to finish.
There are bad risks to take on QBs. But unwilling to take any and not insitute some change at the position makes no sense.
Especially if the alternative is paying more for the flawed QB you have now because the status quo feels comfortable...
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The only hope is that Daboll is constructing an extensive reel of Jones not pulling the trigger on tight windows and reminding the owner that two of the four Lombardis in the case are there because #10 had no such hesitation, regardless of what was on the line. That might have been Eli’s greatest trait beyond his between-game preparation, and few outside the fan base seem to understand that.
If there was ever a time to employ the Ozzie Smith “We love you, but we have a plan in place, so go get the best deal you can get out there and come back with it and we’ll discuss options”. They simply cannot let fear of losing this player complicate the path forward, and I agree with those who feel the decision on the fifth year option is encouraging.
Oh I'm definitely encouraged by it. I'm just not ready to say that it means Jones will get shown the door if his play / efficient asset management merits it. I do think we have a worlds better shot on JS getting some kind of better compromise from the situation though and I'm hopeful he could sell a suggestion like yours. Some are making it out to be a thing where Mara is saying I'm putting my foot down and it's Jones for X. Life doesn't really work like that especially with a personality type like Maras. But it is sometimes hard to ignore the opinions of your boss and your co-worker bosses in the personnel department if they are, like we just think it is best to pay DJ for a few more seasons while you pursue your QB solution.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
We are 2-0 and the same contigentent of fools are complaining we are not winning by enough. A win is a win is a win. Thes games are usually razor thin. Buffalo is now the team on the up and come. Who helped build them. For Christ's sake let these guys do their jobs. So far so good. Sy even said in his report not being able to get solid play from the interior OL is causing issues. They will figure it out. We go against a very solid DL this week that will be 3 weeks in a row. They need to get better, Jones is doing his part to keep them in theses games. That said, there will be games that he will have to do more to win. In order for that to happen he will have to take more chances, tough to take those chances when you cant step up to see what is happening. DJ will need to start to more chances which leads to bigger plays and more TO's. Risk reward but as we know from the past hard to make throws when a WR has no time to get open or you QB can not step up or he is lying on his back.
Enjoy 2-0 and let's hope we do just enough again to be 3-0.
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In comment 15825645 ChrisRick said:
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My questions were not meant to come off as me saying “I know Mara does not meddle”. They were legitimate questions. I also did not see that Sean had asked this prior in the thread.
Mara does not want to steamroll his GM, but Mara will name the starting qb? Mara wants to get his way behind the scenes, but publicly James Jones the starter? It is not the owner’s place to set the depth chart of a position, to me that is steamrolling and not working behind the scenes.
I don't think nor anyone should that Mara is so out of control that he would name a starter at a press conference not having discussed that at all with his coach and GM. I think that press conference was highly reflective of both conversations being had in that building as well as the very clear involvement of Mara in those conversations.
Also in regards to your 2nd part, you are acting like Mara is on an island as an owner. You don't think the one of the most senior personnel people (Chris Mara) and the future owner in that department get a say in the QB decision? It's not as black and white as you are suggesting where someone is being steamrolled or JS has free reign to make the decision. Business is always politics and Mara has a fragile ego to handle after all he's been through I bet. Chris has a fragile enough ego that he cared about his title enough to have it changed back to personnel after not even a full offseason of being booted from that department. Think that's a guy you want to say "hey, I hear you but you are wrong" to?
Person 1: What a fun roller coaster ride!
Person 2: Yeah! But I'm not sure I want to keep riding it one of those connections looks a little loose from down here
Person 1: God, you are such a miserable person why can't we just talk about how much fun it was and ride again?
- DJFC
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
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In comment 15826325 BrettNYG10 said:
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
Shut up, you said full bloom love, I saw it
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In comment 15826325 BrettNYG10 said:
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
If this is the path DB takes, I'd rather just keep Tyrod that bring in Gardner. I don't think Minschew is better, or any good for that matter, and Tyrod already knows the system so the team can keep moving forward.
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In comment 15825915 NoGainDayne said:
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In comment 15825645 ChrisRick said:
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My questions were not meant to come off as me saying “I know Mara does not meddle”. They were legitimate questions. I also did not see that Sean had asked this prior in the thread.
Mara does not want to steamroll his GM, but Mara will name the starting qb? Mara wants to get his way behind the scenes, but publicly James Jones the starter? It is not the owner’s place to set the depth chart of a position, to me that is steamrolling and not working behind the scenes.
I don't think nor anyone should that Mara is so out of control that he would name a starter at a press conference not having discussed that at all with his coach and GM. I think that press conference was highly reflective of both conversations being had in that building as well as the very clear involvement of Mara in those conversations.
Also in regards to your 2nd part, you are acting like Mara is on an island as an owner. You don't think the one of the most senior personnel people (Chris Mara) and the future owner in that department get a say in the QB decision? It's not as black and white as you are suggesting where someone is being steamrolled or JS has free reign to make the decision. Business is always politics and Mara has a fragile ego to handle after all he's been through I bet. Chris has a fragile enough ego that he cared about his title enough to have it changed back to personnel after not even a full offseason of being booted from that department. Think that's a guy you want to say "hey, I hear you but you are wrong" to?
If Mara consulted with the coach about Jones being the starting qb then what is the problem with him saying that Jones is the starter and Taylor was brought in as a backup?
I believe you said earlier that it suggested that Mara was still too involved.
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In comment 15826325 BrettNYG10 said:
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
He has been brought up several times in the past two years. Not always you, true. He is so good that he is the backup to Hurts.
And yes, he is mediocre. Why would you replace mediocre with mediocre - just to have someone other than Jones at QB?
Andy Dalton was far better than Minshew, would you want him? Like Trubisky, why would anyone want him?
If Jones is gone(he will be), you need/want a big upgrade not equal talent or slight upgrade.
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In comment 15826337 section125 said:
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In comment 15826325 BrettNYG10 said:
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
He has been brought up several times in the past two years. Not always you, true. He is so good that he is the backup to Hurts.
And yes, he is mediocre. Why would you replace mediocre with mediocre - just to have someone other than Jones at QB?
Andy Dalton was far better than Minshew, would you want him? Like Trubisky, why would anyone want him?
If Jones is gone(he will be), you need/want a big upgrade not equal talent or slight upgrade.
Well, there is something to be said for expectations, IMO. So if the 2023 offseason begins to shape up as one where the Giants prefer to replace Jones but feel uncertain about their ability to acquire a QB prospect that they believe has genuine franchise QB potential, they may find themselves looking at placeholder options.
They could:
1) Attempt to bring DJ back on a team-friendly bargain contract (in QB terms)
2) Roll with Tyrod Taylor and double down with another journeyman to compete with him (this could be Minshew or someone of that caliber) for QB1
3) Roll with Tyrod Taylor in the QB1 placeholder role and take a high-upside project QB (like Willis would have been in this past draft)
You can make a case for DJ and Minshew being interchangeable in scenarios 1 and 2, but I would argue that if DJ is brought back, it will be hard for anyone other than a highly-touted rookie to unseat him as QB1 without a QB controversy, simply because he's the incumbent. Even if Schoen and Daboll have no loyalty to DJ, there is still the possibility of inertia.
But if you replace DJ even with his exact replica, but one who has already become thought of as a journeyman, that perception will be different - certainly among fans, but also possibly among teammates and coaches. You rarely ever see a truly open competition for QB1 on an NFL team. There is almost always a presumptive QB1 on every roster, or an (hopefully) ascendant QB prospect waiting in the wings.
It also gives DJ a fresh start elsewhere, which would have to be appealing compared to just accepting his role as placeholder until something better comes along. For everyone's sake, I think DJ either needs to earn the right to be the unquestioned QB1, or both sides need to move on.
Honestly, the idea of hanging onto DJ to extend this limbo status for another year or two just reeks of wanting to split up with someone but being too afraid of being alone, so you embrace dysfunction for fear of loneliness.
Well, there is something to be said for expectations, IMO. So if the 2023 offseason begins to shape up as one where the Giants prefer to replace Jones but feel uncertain about their ability to acquire a QB prospect that they believe has genuine franchise QB potential, they may find themselves looking at placeholder options.
They could:
1) Attempt to bring DJ back on a team-friendly bargain contract (in QB terms)
2) Roll with Tyrod Taylor and double down with another journeyman to compete with him (this could be Minshew or someone of that caliber) for QB1
3) Roll with Tyrod Taylor in the QB1 placeholder role and take a high-upside project QB (like Willis would have been in this past draft)
You can make a case for DJ and Minshew being interchangeable in scenarios 1 and 2, but I would argue that if DJ is brought back, it will be hard for anyone other than a highly-touted rookie to unseat him as QB1 without a QB controversy, simply because he's the incumbent. Even if Schoen and Daboll have no loyalty to DJ, there is still the possibility of inertia.
But if you replace DJ even with his exact replica, but one who has already become thought of as a journeyman, that perception will be different - certainly among fans, but also possibly among teammates and coaches. You rarely ever see a truly open competition for QB1 on an NFL team. There is almost always a presumptive QB1 on every roster, or an (hopefully) ascendant QB prospect waiting in the wings.
It also gives DJ a fresh start elsewhere, which would have to be appealing compared to just accepting his role as placeholder until something better comes along. For everyone's sake, I think DJ either needs to earn the right to be the unquestioned QB1, or both sides need to move on.
Honestly, the idea of hanging onto DJ to extend this limbo status for another year or two just reeks of wanting to split up with someone but being too afraid of being alone, so you embrace dysfunction for fear of loneliness.
I agree with you on this. If Jones goes FA, which I am certain he will, I doubt he would want to come back for a season or two at a reduced rate. Better he go elsewhere and start fresh.
Wow - talk about thinking outside the box.
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In comment 15826337 section125 said:
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In comment 15826325 BrettNYG10 said:
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1. My preference is to draft a QB but I don't follow college.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.
This Gardner Minshew obsession with people is strange. He may be a slightly better Jones, at best. He could not beat out Jalen Hurts....and yes Hurts looked great Monday.
What obsession? I literally called him mediocre.
He has been brought up several times in the past two years. Not always you, true. He is so good that he is the backup to Hurts.
And yes, he is mediocre. Why would you replace mediocre with mediocre - just to have someone other than Jones at QB?
Andy Dalton was far better than Minshew, would you want him? Like Trubisky, why would anyone want him?
If Jones is gone(he will be), you need/want a big upgrade not equal talent or slight upgrade.
I agree, I want a young quarterback through the draft that has the potential to be an elite QB. If we can't get that, I'd sign Minshew or someone like that. Dalton is cooked. Minshew will cost little and give the team what Jones has (and I'd argue might be better). No one thinks he's good.
Taylor is going to be 34 to start next season and he also isn't good. He's probably close to cooked too.
Unless he's legitimately checking all the boxes for Daboll and Schoen by week 15, there's very little reason to think he's going to be back next year. The Giants already have their bridge QB/ bus driver to the next drafted QB. It's not jones.
Unless he's legitimately checking all the boxes for Daboll and Schoen by week 15, there's very little reason to think he's going to be back next year. The Giants already have their bridge QB/ bus driver to the next drafted QB. It's not jones.
If they already know it's not Jones why are they giving him this year? Makes no sense.
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Seems real simple here. Despite being very limited on the salary cap, they signed taylor to a multi-year deal at fair money for a backup/spot starter. They declined the 5YO on jones. They set the table for Jones to self-determine his value.
Unless he's legitimately checking all the boxes for Daboll and Schoen by week 15, there's very little reason to think he's going to be back next year. The Giants already have their bridge QB/ bus driver to the next drafted QB. It's not jones.
If they already know it's not Jones why are they giving him this year? Makes no sense.
Because he is their best chance to win and the money is spent. You are not wrong, though - perhaps they want to see if he is salvageable and to what degree.
Wow - talk about thinking outside the box.
No one is suggesting Minshew or Taylor are taking NYG to the promised land. They're literally just suggesting hiring a temp to fill a role after the incumbent gets fired at the end of his PIP. Or does your company typically just let the PIP employee stay on until they hire his replacement?
I agree, I want a young quarterback through the draft that has the potential to be an elite QB. If we can't get that, I'd sign Minshew or someone like that. Dalton is cooked. Minshew will cost little and give the team what Jones has (and I'd argue might be better). No one thinks he's good.
Taylor is going to be 34 to start next season and he also isn't good. He's probably close to cooked too.
I would try to wrestle Tyler Huntley from the Ravens. I really like how his skills fit the modern game. And I could see Daboll/Kafka really polishing his game to fit their style of offense.
HC's don't last long around here without getting to the playoffs. Unfortunately some HC's get luckier than others when they start. BD would be one year down on the clock. It may be a few years till things align that you get the QB that you want in the draft. Someone has to play the position and BD will have to win.
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I agree, I want a young quarterback through the draft that has the potential to be an elite QB. If we can't get that, I'd sign Minshew or someone like that. Dalton is cooked. Minshew will cost little and give the team what Jones has (and I'd argue might be better). No one thinks he's good.
Taylor is going to be 34 to start next season and he also isn't good. He's probably close to cooked too.
I would try to wrestle Tyler Huntley from the Ravens. I really like how his skills fit the modern game. And I could see Daboll/Kafka really polishing his game to fit their style of offense.
Trade for a backup QB? His numbers do not look so hot that you would waste a pick on...
I would try to wrestle Tyler Huntley from the Ravens. I really like how his skills fit the modern game. And I could see Daboll/Kafka really polishing his game to fit their style of offense.
Trade for a backup QB? His numbers do not look so hot that you would waste a pick on...
Huntley is only 24. I would gamble a 3rd on him. And look at his game long last year. He had one bad game out of five starts. In the other four, he averaged nearly a 60 QBR.
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In comment 15826681 bw in dc said:
I would try to wrestle Tyler Huntley from the Ravens. I really like how his skills fit the modern game. And I could see Daboll/Kafka really polishing his game to fit their style of offense.
Trade for a backup QB? His numbers do not look so hot that you would waste a pick on...
Huntley is only 24. I would gamble a 3rd on him. And look at his game long last year. He had one bad game out of five starts. In the other four, he averaged nearly a 60 QBR.
Interesting. The article I read said he had one great game and 4 bad ones...The game he won was his lowest rating, too.
NFW, I give up a 3rd for him. You can probably get an equal prospect out of college for a 3rd. And he is kind of small. I don't see Daboll going with a 6'1" under 200 lbs QB.
There are good QBs to be had after round 1.
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If they can't get someone they want in round 1 I definitely see them adding one in rounds 2-4. This draft will have a lot of interesting QB's imv. Then it would be Jones/FA with that DP. This won't stop them from addressing QB again (if needed) in the draft if things line up.
There are good QBs to be had after round 1.
Yes. Longer shot to get a upper tier one but plenty you could win games with and go to the playoffs. Cheap so you can even add more quality players to the team.
So Daniel Jones has been the "most pressured" quarterback through 2 weeks, with pressure on 49.3 percent of his drop backs...
OL needs time to gel after completely overhauling but this certainly isn't good. We need more from the interior guys badly #NYG
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If they can't get someone they want in round 1 I definitely see them adding one in rounds 2-4. This draft will have a lot of interesting QB's imv. Then it would be Jones/FA with that DP. This won't stop them from addressing QB again (if needed) in the draft if things line up.
There are good QBs to be had after round 1.
Like who? Top 15 pick QBs are a 50/50 shot to be good. After round 1 the odds drop like a rock
Sean - those "reports" of a deep QB draft were in July before the games began. Levis, Richardson, and Van Dyke have all looked less than those reports so far when playing decent teams
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In comment 15826746 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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If they can't get someone they want in round 1 I definitely see them adding one in rounds 2-4. This draft will have a lot of interesting QB's imv. Then it would be Jones/FA with that DP. This won't stop them from addressing QB again (if needed) in the draft if things line up.
There are good QBs to be had after round 1.
Like who? Top 15 pick QBs are a 50/50 shot to be good. After round 1 the odds drop like a rock
Russ Wilson - 3rd rnd
Dak Prescott - 4th rnd
Tom Brady - 6th rnd
Cousins - 4th - meh
It is a different era of football. Even I know the position is changing and there are more opportunities for Lamar Jackson type running/throwing QBs.
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In comment 15826760 section125 said:
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In comment 15826746 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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If they can't get someone they want in round 1 I definitely see them adding one in rounds 2-4. This draft will have a lot of interesting QB's imv. Then it would be Jones/FA with that DP. This won't stop them from addressing QB again (if needed) in the draft if things line up.
There are good QBs to be had after round 1.
Like who? Top 15 pick QBs are a 50/50 shot to be good. After round 1 the odds drop like a rock
Russ Wilson - 3rd rnd
Dak Prescott - 4th rnd
Tom Brady - 6th rnd
Cousins - 4th - meh
It is a different era of football. Even I know the position is changing and there are more opportunities for Lamar Jackson type running/throwing QBs.
So 4 guys and two are meh (Dak and Cousins). Now count up how many QBs were taken from Brady's draft to last year after round 1? 100? More than 100? Even if its 100, that means 2 out of 100, that would be a 2% success rate
It is a different era of football. Even I know the position is changing and there are more opportunities for Lamar Jackson type running/throwing QBs.
So 4 guys and two are meh (Dak and Cousins). Now count up how many QBs were taken from Brady's draft to last year after round 1? 100? More than 100? Even if its 100, that means 2 out of 100, that would be a 2% success rate
That is 4 off the top of my head. And Dak is not meh. I figured the "yeah buts" would be the reply. But yes the likelihood is near zero. However, if you think only a top 15 pick can become a VG starting QB, then why bother drafting after #15? Why waste a pick when you can get starting WRs, DEs, OL, LBs, CBs in late rnd 1, plus 2, 3, 4....why waste your time?
Geezus - different era now. I am also feeling that throw away QB will now be drafted. Guys used and abused until contract time, let go, and another found. Beat spending 20% of the cap on one guy.
Not to miller the thread, but this is something that Terps was advocating for years ago, and it does have merit.
The league adjusted years ago to the reality that RBs tended to age quickly and age poorly, so very few of them ever reach a lucrative second contract (or beyond). It's entirely possible that teams will begin to adopt a similar approach with QBs, but not because of the wear-and-tear; rather, because of the difference in cap value at the QB position from rookie contract to veteran contract.
Obviously, it's the rookie salary scale that creates this massive implied value at the QB position (20 years ago, rookie QBs taken near the top of the draft were expensive right away), but it's the advanced offensive schemes at the high school and college levels that make it possible to take advantage of that opportunity.
That's why it's so important for a QB to develop quickly at the NFL level: the salary cap advantage is too massive to take lightly, and because QBs should be able to play at a high level very early on in today's QB-friendly NFL, with offensive systems that are actually based on the college game, rather than the way it used to be, when the NFL game was exponentially more sophisticated than the scholastic and collegiate ranks.
That's also why it's tiresome when the DJFC trots out examples from decades ago of QBs who took a long time to develop, because it's irrelevant. A QB has to be really good within his rookie contract, and if he's not, you're better off failing fast and hitting the reset button every four years (if not sooner) until you find the franchise guy. It's an exhausting process, but it's still more realistic than hoping to build the kind of supporting cast necessary to carry a game-manager style of QB (by all means, if you want to give me the 2000 Ravens defense or even the 2002 Bucs defense, I can see a path to a championship with a QB on DJ's level).
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I am also feeling that throw away QB will now be drafted. Guys used and abused until contract time, let go, and another found. Beat spending 20% of the cap on one guy.
Not to miller the thread, but this is something that Terps was advocating for years ago, and it does have merit.
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IIRC, all Terps said was you should pick one every year because you never know what you will find....I don't remember him thinking of drafting QBs to use them up and get rid of them before they got that 2nd and killer contract. I think Gil Brandt believes the same thing on taking one each year.
I think it is a good idea if your team is built and you have depth all around. Not sure a team like the Giants can afford to use a 3rd round flier on a QB with all the holes they have and the lack of talent on the roster. You can get a legit starter at almost any other position thru the 3rd round.
Probably explains why he is such a big soccer fan in a country that doesnt care about soccer after high school
There are four starting QB who aren’t on rookie deals, who make less than 25M a year.
Winston: 2/28M — coming off a torn ACL
Garopollo: 1/~16M — coming off a shoulder injury
Mariota: 2/18M — coming off being a backup
Trubisky: 2/14 — coming off being a backup
So fair is north is 25M right? But 25M isn’t informative, as that’s Brady on a discount, so the next guy is Tannehill at 29.5M, so is that fair?
A QB drafted in the 1st round has a > 0% chance of becoming a good QB.
Drafting a QB in the 1st round is way better than keeping Daniel Jones.
If we keep Jones, we essentially forfeit our chances of ever being good.
A QB drafted in the 1st round has a > 0% chance of becoming a good QB.
Drafting a QB in the 1st round is way better than keeping Daniel Jones.
If we keep Jones, we essentially forfeit our chances of ever being good.
I wasted 30 seconds of my life reading this....
A QB drafted in the 1st round has a > 0% chance of becoming a good QB.
Drafting a QB in the 1st round is way better than keeping Daniel Jones.
If we keep Jones, we essentially forfeit our chances of ever being good.
Do you watch college football? Who besides the 2 QBs we wont be able to get has impressed you? None. I havent seen the Wash St QB Cameron Ward, but the rest have not been good vs decent competition so far
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at all.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
We are 2-0 and the same contigentent of fools are complaining we are not winning by enough. A win is a win is a win. Thes games are usually razor thin. Buffalo is now the team on the up and come. Who helped build them. For Christ's sake let these guys do their jobs. So far so good. Sy even said in his report not being able to get solid play from the interior OL is causing issues. They will figure it out. We go against a very solid DL this week that will be 3 weeks in a row. They need to get better, Jones is doing his part to keep them in theses games. That said, there will be games that he will have to do more to win. In order for that to happen he will have to take more chances, tough to take those chances when you cant step up to see what is happening. DJ will need to start to more chances which leads to bigger plays and more TO's. Risk reward but as we know from the past hard to make throws when a WR has no time to get open or you QB can not step up or he is lying on his back.
Enjoy 2-0 and let's hope we do just enough again to be 3-0.
How come you don’t like Maryland?
Right. And one of those reasons is because how little they have cared about Center over the years. Always thinking they can invest dirt cheap and get by or reinvent someone when they have been a disaster at evaluating and/or developing OL players on the whole.
This strategy needs to change with regard to Center going forward..
Haha
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Right. And one of those reasons is because how little they have cared about Center over the years. Always thinking they can invest dirt cheap and get by or reinvent someone when they have been a disaster at evaluating and/or developing OL players on the whole.
This strategy needs to change with regard to Center going forward..
I think the whole league is swinging towards paying and prioritizing OL. They're just too hard to find good ones now. When teams hit on draft picks, they don't let them get to free agency.
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In comment 15826843 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Right. And one of those reasons is because how little they have cared about Center over the years. Always thinking they can invest dirt cheap and get by or reinvent someone when they have been a disaster at evaluating and/or developing OL players on the whole.
This strategy needs to change with regard to Center going forward..
I think the whole league is swinging towards paying and prioritizing OL. They're just too hard to find good ones now. When teams hit on draft picks, they don't let them get to free agency.
Hasn't that been happening for 15+ years already and Michael Lewis wrote a bestselling book about it and Sandra Bullock won an Oscar for starring in the motion picture?
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In comment 15826843 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Right. And one of those reasons is because how little they have cared about Center over the years. Always thinking they can invest dirt cheap and get by or reinvent someone when they have been a disaster at evaluating and/or developing OL players on the whole.
This strategy needs to change with regard to Center going forward..
I think the whole league is swinging towards paying and prioritizing OL. They're just too hard to find good ones now. When teams hit on draft picks, they don't let them get to free agency.
Agree. But the Giants haven’t shown any prioritization towards the Center position at all. They have been trying to be cute with it and have simply failed…
Remove head from clouds. MAra and the franchise can be too loyal at times, especially to younger players and even younger coaches, but they aren't going to throw around 50-100 million just because they like the guy.
YEt he did it. Twice.
The Giants needed about 3 drives second half of each game to win them. And they did just that. Then they kept the ball last Sunday to seal it.
Not to defend Jones or anything. But he did lead them to wins by driving the ball late, multiple times each game.
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I am also feeling that throw away QB will now be drafted. Guys used and abused until contract time, let go, and another found. Beat spending 20% of the cap on one guy.
Not to miller the thread, but this is something that Terps was advocating for years ago, and it does have merit.
The league adjusted years ago to the reality that RBs tended to age quickly and age poorly, so very few of them ever reach a lucrative second contract (or beyond). It's entirely possible that teams will begin to adopt a similar approach with QBs, but not because of the wear-and-tear; rather, because of the difference in cap value at the QB position from rookie contract to veteran contract.
Obviously, it's the rookie salary scale that creates this massive implied value at the QB position (20 years ago, rookie QBs taken near the top of the draft were expensive right away), but it's the advanced offensive schemes at the high school and college levels that make it possible to take advantage of that opportunity.
That's why it's so important for a QB to develop quickly at the NFL level: the salary cap advantage is too massive to take lightly, and because QBs should be able to play at a high level very early on in today's QB-friendly NFL, with offensive systems that are actually based on the college game, rather than the way it used to be, when the NFL game was exponentially more sophisticated than the scholastic and collegiate ranks.
That's also why it's tiresome when the DJFC trots out examples from decades ago of QBs who took a long time to develop, because it's irrelevant. A QB has to be really good within his rookie contract, and if he's not, you're better off failing fast and hitting the reset button every four years (if not sooner) until you find the franchise guy. It's an exhausting process, but it's still more realistic than hoping to build the kind of supporting cast necessary to carry a game-manager style of QB (by all means, if you want to give me the 2000 Ravens defense or even the 2002 Bucs defense, I can see a path to a championship with a QB on DJ's level).
There's some truth to this, but there's also simple truth in saying you want as many cost controlled young studs on the team as possible, not just QB, but any position. Yes you want a great young QB that isn't getting paid, but that doesn't mean you can't win with a highly paid star vet QB either. It also doesn't necessarily mean a team that didn't win BIG with a good, young and cheap QB can't win BIG with that same QB only now he's making more money. You're implying that a team should punt on the QB if they didn't win big and he's about to get paid. So if Cincy doesn't win a title and JB is due for the big contract they should punt and start over?
Look at the super bowl winners since 2000 or so. Look at the competitive teams year after year. Most of them have the highly paid QB. If you have a lot of highly paid star power, you can keep most of the team together by moving money around. IT's when the team sucks you will see the owner and GM go scorched earth like NYG. Dallas has had to let a few players go but they will keep that young defense in place with Dak and even guys like Zeke and the OL. Look at the Rams. They have older expensive players up and down the roster, including the QB. Why and how Because they are good.
Daniel Jones turning into a super star player and getting paid a brinx truck worth of money is a great case scenario for NYG despite some of thinking otherwise. Not saying it will happen but for the sake of this topic, allow it for a second.
Perfect scenario? Jones tanks, we draft Tom BRady part 2 in April. We all know that. But finding a star vet QB and paying him is not "bad" at all. It's good.
Eagles are in a nice spot. Niners kind of since JG isn't making stupid stupid money if memory serves. They did just "lose" another cheap year out of Lance. Bears? They kind of suck. Miami is in a nice spot but Tua is coming up on money sooner than later.
It's easier said than done.
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In comment 15826873 section125 said:
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I am also feeling that throw away QB will now be drafted. Guys used and abused until contract time, let go, and another found. Beat spending 20% of the cap on one guy.
Not to miller the thread, but this is something that Terps was advocating for years ago, and it does have merit.
The league adjusted years ago to the reality that RBs tended to age quickly and age poorly, so very few of them ever reach a lucrative second contract (or beyond). It's entirely possible that teams will begin to adopt a similar approach with QBs, but not because of the wear-and-tear; rather, because of the difference in cap value at the QB position from rookie contract to veteran contract.
Obviously, it's the rookie salary scale that creates this massive implied value at the QB position (20 years ago, rookie QBs taken near the top of the draft were expensive right away), but it's the advanced offensive schemes at the high school and college levels that make it possible to take advantage of that opportunity.
That's why it's so important for a QB to develop quickly at the NFL level: the salary cap advantage is too massive to take lightly, and because QBs should be able to play at a high level very early on in today's QB-friendly NFL, with offensive systems that are actually based on the college game, rather than the way it used to be, when the NFL game was exponentially more sophisticated than the scholastic and collegiate ranks.
That's also why it's tiresome when the DJFC trots out examples from decades ago of QBs who took a long time to develop, because it's irrelevant. A QB has to be really good within his rookie contract, and if he's not, you're better off failing fast and hitting the reset button every four years (if not sooner) until you find the franchise guy. It's an exhausting process, but it's still more realistic than hoping to build the kind of supporting cast necessary to carry a game-manager style of QB (by all means, if you want to give me the 2000 Ravens defense or even the 2002 Bucs defense, I can see a path to a championship with a QB on DJ's level).
There's some truth to this, but there's also simple truth in saying you want as many cost controlled young studs on the team as possible, not just QB, but any position. Yes you want a great young QB that isn't getting paid, but that doesn't mean you can't win with a highly paid star vet QB either. It also doesn't necessarily mean a team that didn't win BIG with a good, young and cheap QB can't win BIG with that same QB only now he's making more money. You're implying that a team should punt on the QB if they didn't win big and he's about to get paid. So if Cincy doesn't win a title and JB is due for the big contract they should punt and start over?
Look at the super bowl winners since 2000 or so. Look at the competitive teams year after year. Most of them have the highly paid QB. If you have a lot of highly paid star power, you can keep most of the team together by moving money around. IT's when the team sucks you will see the owner and GM go scorched earth like NYG. Dallas has had to let a few players go but they will keep that young defense in place with Dak and even guys like Zeke and the OL. Look at the Rams. They have older expensive players up and down the roster, including the QB. Why and how Because they are good.
Daniel Jones turning into a super star player and getting paid a brinx truck worth of money is a great case scenario for NYG despite some of thinking otherwise. Not saying it will happen but for the sake of this topic, allow it for a second.
Perfect scenario? Jones tanks, we draft Tom BRady part 2 in April. We all know that. But finding a star vet QB and paying him is not "bad" at all. It's good.
No, I'm not suggesting that a team punt on a young QB at the end of his rookie contract if he has not yet won a Super Bowl or whatever arbitrary playoff level you want to use as a benchmark.
I'm saying that if a QB hasn't absolutely proven that he COULD win a championship as anything other than a passenger on an otherwise elite team, you should move on and try to find a better QB.
The point being, if you have the sort of QB that needs everything around him to be perfect in order to win, chances are you can replace him pretty easily and still win (because of the supporting cast that the first guy needed to succeeded anyway), with the hope that you can reach an even higher level of championship caliber by eventually landing that truly elite franchise QB. There's no downside if your plan for the original QB was going to have to be "build a perfect roster around him" anyway. Just do that for the next guy and keep it cheap at QB until you nail it.
You don't need to pay retail for a DJ-level veteran QB if you have to surround him with rookie-level training wheels anyway.
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In comment 15826899 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15826873 section125 said:
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I am also feeling that throw away QB will now be drafted. Guys used and abused until contract time, let go, and another found. Beat spending 20% of the cap on one guy.
Not to miller the thread, but this is something that Terps was advocating for years ago, and it does have merit.
The league adjusted years ago to the reality that RBs tended to age quickly and age poorly, so very few of them ever reach a lucrative second contract (or beyond). It's entirely possible that teams will begin to adopt a similar approach with QBs, but not because of the wear-and-tear; rather, because of the difference in cap value at the QB position from rookie contract to veteran contract.
Obviously, it's the rookie salary scale that creates this massive implied value at the QB position (20 years ago, rookie QBs taken near the top of the draft were expensive right away), but it's the advanced offensive schemes at the high school and college levels that make it possible to take advantage of that opportunity.
That's why it's so important for a QB to develop quickly at the NFL level: the salary cap advantage is too massive to take lightly, and because QBs should be able to play at a high level very early on in today's QB-friendly NFL, with offensive systems that are actually based on the college game, rather than the way it used to be, when the NFL game was exponentially more sophisticated than the scholastic and collegiate ranks.
That's also why it's tiresome when the DJFC trots out examples from decades ago of QBs who took a long time to develop, because it's irrelevant. A QB has to be really good within his rookie contract, and if he's not, you're better off failing fast and hitting the reset button every four years (if not sooner) until you find the franchise guy. It's an exhausting process, but it's still more realistic than hoping to build the kind of supporting cast necessary to carry a game-manager style of QB (by all means, if you want to give me the 2000 Ravens defense or even the 2002 Bucs defense, I can see a path to a championship with a QB on DJ's level).
There's some truth to this, but there's also simple truth in saying you want as many cost controlled young studs on the team as possible, not just QB, but any position. Yes you want a great young QB that isn't getting paid, but that doesn't mean you can't win with a highly paid star vet QB either. It also doesn't necessarily mean a team that didn't win BIG with a good, young and cheap QB can't win BIG with that same QB only now he's making more money. You're implying that a team should punt on the QB if they didn't win big and he's about to get paid. So if Cincy doesn't win a title and JB is due for the big contract they should punt and start over?
Look at the super bowl winners since 2000 or so. Look at the competitive teams year after year. Most of them have the highly paid QB. If you have a lot of highly paid star power, you can keep most of the team together by moving money around. IT's when the team sucks you will see the owner and GM go scorched earth like NYG. Dallas has had to let a few players go but they will keep that young defense in place with Dak and even guys like Zeke and the OL. Look at the Rams. They have older expensive players up and down the roster, including the QB. Why and how Because they are good.
Daniel Jones turning into a super star player and getting paid a brinx truck worth of money is a great case scenario for NYG despite some of thinking otherwise. Not saying it will happen but for the sake of this topic, allow it for a second.
Perfect scenario? Jones tanks, we draft Tom BRady part 2 in April. We all know that. But finding a star vet QB and paying him is not "bad" at all. It's good.
No, I'm not suggesting that a team punt on a young QB at the end of his rookie contract if he has not yet won a Super Bowl or whatever arbitrary playoff level you want to use as a benchmark.
I'm saying that if a QB hasn't absolutely proven that he COULD win a championship as anything other than a passenger on an otherwise elite team, you should move on and try to find a better QB.
The point being, if you have the sort of QB that needs everything around him to be perfect in order to win, chances are you can replace him pretty easily and still win (because of the supporting cast that the first guy needed to succeeded anyway), with the hope that you can reach an even higher level of championship caliber by eventually landing that truly elite franchise QB. There's no downside if your plan for the original QB was going to have to be "build a perfect roster around him" anyway. Just do that for the next guy and keep it cheap at QB until you nail it.
You don't need to pay retail for a DJ-level veteran QB if you have to surround him with rookie-level training wheels anyway.
Totally agree. The question now is what is Daniel Jones. Maybe we already know, but I think he's playing better than he ever played, including 2019. I'd like to see more though. Not deluding myself or anything I just see a better player. That scramble on 3rd down to seal it was one of the best plays of his career in my view.
And yet is still a below average NFL starter. That's the crux of why I want the Giants to be rid of him - nothing about him has ever indicated that he can be an upper-echelon QB, even as he has improved from his past seasons.
Guy just isn't all that good.
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I think he's playing better than he ever played, including 2019.
And yet is still a below average NFL starter. That's the crux of why I want the Giants to be rid of him - nothing about him has ever indicated that he can be an upper-echelon QB, even as he has improved from his past seasons.
Guy just isn't all that good.
OK.
They've done incredible on drafts, made a lot of good moves in FA, but they haven't made any aggressive moves on QB, in part because they are always competitive and out of prime draft position and they don't seem to want to part with assets.
The end result is this retread carousel they've been on. "We've got a great roster, let's just fill it in with Rivers, Wentz, Ryan etc."
Remove head from clouds. MAra and the franchise can be too loyal at times, especially to younger players and even younger coaches, but they aren't going to throw around 50-100 million just because they like the guy.
Willy-nilly is a bad way to describe it. This may come as a shock to you but some people find it difficult to separate their feelings on a person from an objective evaluation of them. It's ridiculous to think that Mara is intentionally throwing money away on someone he "likes" but you scoffing at the idea that Mara would waste money is off the mark. Chris and Tim and John and the whole gang signed off on Solder, KG and all the other money wasters we've seen. I'm not making them the culprits but they certainly aren't innocent so don't act like they aren't perfectly capable of pissing money down the drain.
Another logical inconsistency in your point is like well this is stupid, Mara wouldn't do anything stupid would he? Well I'd argue that the press conference in which he named Jones the starter and gushed over him and made him a victim of his teammates was incredibly stupid. The very idea that an owner is standing up and asking a fan base to excuse the most important position on the field from the team being shitty is dumb on it's face. But the fact that he basically had to toss the rest of his offense under the bus to do it is even worse. He had to call the rest of them bad to prop up his fragile little flower of a QB. Not to mention he publicly undercut his new GM and coach. And you want to act like he's not capable of being a part of stupid actions or frivolous spending? Come on.
Do you watch college football? Who besides the 2 QBs we wont be able to get has impressed you? None. I havent seen the Wash St QB Cameron Ward, but the rest have not been good vs decent competition so far
That's a ridiculous statement. There are any number of QB's who have looked good, and last time I checked, it is still only September. For example, Michael Pinex at Wash has looked fantastic - 1,100 yards, 10 TD's, only 1 pick, including 400 yds and 4 TD's v. 11th ranked Mich St.
Your argument boils down to "drafting a QB is a crapshoot, so we should just stick with what we have". It's a good thing Ernie Acorsi didn't listen to you.
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when people here honestly believe that Mara is all willy-nilly on PAYING Daniel Jones a shit load of money. That not only will he meddle and force the HC/GM's hand to sign a QB that isn't highly thought of by said GM/HC but PAY that guy a shit load of money. Why? Because he likes the cut of his jib? Or needs to be proven right?
Remove head from clouds. MAra and the franchise can be too loyal at times, especially to younger players and even younger coaches, but they aren't going to throw around 50-100 million just because they like the guy.
Willy-nilly is a bad way to describe it. This may come as a shock to you but some people find it difficult to separate their feelings on a person from an objective evaluation of them. It's ridiculous to think that Mara is intentionally throwing money away on someone he "likes" but you scoffing at the idea that Mara would waste money is off the mark. Chris and Tim and John and the whole gang signed off on Solder, KG and all the other money wasters we've seen. I'm not making them the culprits but they certainly aren't innocent so don't act like they aren't perfectly capable of pissing money down the drain.
Another logical inconsistency in your point is like well this is stupid, Mara wouldn't do anything stupid would he? Well I'd argue that the press conference in which he named Jones the starter and gushed over him and made him a victim of his teammates was incredibly stupid. The very idea that an owner is standing up and asking a fan base to excuse the most important position on the field from the team being shitty is dumb on it's face. But the fact that he basically had to toss the rest of his offense under the bus to do it is even worse. He had to call the rest of them bad to prop up his fragile little flower of a QB. Not to mention he publicly undercut his new GM and coach. And you want to act like he's not capable of being a part of stupid actions or frivolous spending? Come on.
OK, short and sweet, they aren't re-signing Jones unless Daboll and Schoen want to. And it's going to take good play out of Jones to sway Daboll and Schoen.
And yes, it's stupid to say Mara will bust out the foot and insist that Jones be re-signed despite GM and HC saying no fucking way.
The only thing being suggested is Mara's clear affinity for Jones could lead JS to make his own mind up differently than he would in a vacuum. There are Mara's in personnel Mara has already shown us he is overly attached to Jones despite no evidence at all that he can be a good QB. It's not black and white and anyone that doesn't think the team winning increases the risks of this happening hasn't been watching the Mara's closely enough.
You're reaching. Actions speak louder than words.
Mara went out of his way to praise Jones, as if Jones had no impact on the shitty record the Giants had. He was hiring an entirely new management and coaching staff, he should have said nothing in regards to personnel..."I'll leave personnel decisions to the new personnel staff".
The reality is that Schoen probably goes with Jones anyway by virtue of his limited options, but an owner shouldn't be putting his thumb on the scale.
I challenge you to look at a new coach and new GM that came into a situation with an underperforming QB and kept that underperforming QB as opposed to trading him. New regimes like to have their guy. Jones not being shown the door in is actually evidence of abnormal behavior and a sign that there was influence that changed that behavior.
You all want to wave your mission accomplished banner every time. New GM! All the problems are fixed! But the pattern here and the general pattern in business is you don't just fix problems instantaneously and Jones is very much the poster boy for old, problematic thinking that plagued the team.
So yeah, when an owner quite atypically comes out and names a starter before training camp and simultaneously also atypically throws his entire offense under the bus to make that QB look better, I guess? Yeah, that is a sign that the problem might not be solved. Ignore it if you want but it is staring you in the face.
Schoen wanted Trubisky but he opted for Pittsburgh.
I don’t have all the examples in front of me. But, the Browns new regime stuck with Mayfield for a year and Stefanski likely knew he wasn’t the long term answer.
There was no clear replacement in the draft this year. I would have liked Willis drafted initially, but the NFL clearly felt differently.
Schoen wanted Trubisky but he opted for Pittsburgh.
I don’t have all the examples in front of me. But, the Browns new regime stuck with Mayfield for a year and Stefanski likely knew he wasn’t the long term answer.
There was no clear replacement in the draft this year. I would have liked Willis drafted initially, but the NFL clearly felt differently.
Darnold fetched 3 picks. 2,4,6. You could argue that Jones put together a little more on field success than him even though Darnold had much more college success. I think you could probably fetch at least a 3 if not like a 3 and a 4 for Jones and IMO you take that in a New York minute.
Schoen wanted Trubisky but he opted for Pittsburgh.
I don’t have all the examples in front of me. But, the Browns new regime stuck with Mayfield for a year and Stefanski likely knew he wasn’t the long term answer.
There was no clear replacement in the draft this year. I would have liked Willis drafted initially, but the NFL clearly felt differently.
The market for Garoppolo was limited because he was coming off shoulder surgery AND is in the midst of a big contract. Mara's declaration that Jones was the starter certainly didn't help Schoen's efforts to find another QB, as anyone hoping to land a starting gig (Trubisky, Marriotta) were much less likely to sign here.
I do agree that Schoen probably runs it back with Jones by virtue of the limited options he had.
Especially since there actually is some talent on this team.
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What was the market for Jones though? The Niners couldn’t even trade Garoppolo who is better with a much better resume than Jones.
Schoen wanted Trubisky but he opted for Pittsburgh.
I don’t have all the examples in front of me. But, the Browns new regime stuck with Mayfield for a year and Stefanski likely knew he wasn’t the long term answer.
There was no clear replacement in the draft this year. I would have liked Willis drafted initially, but the NFL clearly felt differently.
The market for Garoppolo was limited because he was coming off shoulder surgery AND is in the midst of a big contract. Mara's declaration that Jones was the starter certainly didn't help Schoen's efforts to find another QB, as anyone hoping to land a starting gig (Trubisky, Marriotta) were much less likely to sign here.
I do agree that Schoen probably runs it back with Jones by virtue of the limited options he had.
When did Mara declare that Jones was the starter?
When did Mara declare that Jones was the starter?
While he didn't use the term "starter", Mara did go out of his way to say that he wanted to see how Jones would perform with better talent around him, that "we certainly haven't given up on Daniel Jones". This at a press conference to announce his new GM.
He should have deferred any questions about any player to his new Gm; "I'll leave the personnel decisions to the personnel staff".
He may not have said those exact words, but let's be honest - it doesn't take a detective to deduce his meaning here.
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“But let’s bring in the right group of coaches now and give him some continuity and try to rebuild the offensive line — and then be able to make an intelligent evaluation of whether he can be the franchise quarterback or not.
“I have a lot of hope in Daniel. I know how badly he wants it. I know how the players feel about him. So we are certainly not giving up on him by any stretch of the imagination.”
First of all, it was said at the presser to announce Schoen as the new GM, so it wasn't like Schoen had time to go through tape to see how he felt moving forward with Jones at QB. And even if he was prepared to go into the season with Jones as the starter, Mara gave the impression that he had his thumb on the scale, that HE was the one deciding who was QB.
It was reported that Schoen had talked to other QB's, most namely Trubisky. Mara's comments could be an impediment to signing another QB who was looking for shot at the starting job. I'd flip your question around, what purpose did Mara's comments serve? They provided no benefit, and may have hurt Schoen's efforts to find another QB.
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and the coaches were seeing eye to eye when that comment was made, then what is the big deal? I don't see anything wrong with it, but maybe I am missing something.
First of all, it was said at the presser to announce Schoen as the new GM, so it wasn't like Schoen had time to go through tape to see how he felt moving forward with Jones at QB. And even if he was prepared to go into the season with Jones as the starter, Mara gave the impression that he had his thumb on the scale, that HE was the one deciding who was QB.
It was reported that Schoen had talked to other QB's, most namely Trubisky. Mara's comments could be an impediment to signing another QB who was looking for shot at the starting job. I'd flip your question around, what purpose did Mara's comments serve? They provided no benefit, and may have hurt Schoen's efforts to find another QB.
Here is Mara's entire quote: “I want Joe and the new head coach to make that evaluation,” Mara said. “We do feel that Daniel can play. We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here. We keep changing coaches, keep changing offensive coordinators, keep changing offensive line coaches. I take a lot of responsibility for that.
“But let’s bring in the right group of coaches now and give him some continuity and try to rebuild the offensive line — and then be able to make an intelligent evaluation of whether he can be the franchise quarterback or not.
“I have a lot of hope in Daniel. I know how badly he wants it. I know how the players feel about him. So we are certainly not giving up on him by any stretch of the imagination.”
Mara said he wanted Schoen and the HC to make that decision. To me it reads like Mara is giving public support to a player.
I also wonder if Mara just volunteered this information or was asked about it. If volunteered it, I think that would be odd, if he was asked then I do not think it was a big deal, his comments would serve as public support for the qb.
Its just blatant favoritism based on Jones's Easy to Root For qualities.
I don’t see it that way, but no big deal.
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That can be a sign of a few things but moving up in the pocket when not necessary is something to keep a eye on. It can be a overwhelmed type of issue or he is confused which can be a little system related. Moving like that (forwards) or leaving a good pocket to the outside is generally not good. At least for a pocket passer imv. Something worth keeping a eye on.
I really believe the tail end of Eli Manning’s career fucked with the psychology of Mara and many fans, and created this dysfunction that the team is there to serve the QB.
You see it sentiments like the Giants “wasted the end of Eli’s career” and that “Manning deserved to retire whenever he wanted because of what he’d accomplished.”
Heck, there was poster on BBI recently admonishing another member because he wouldn’t compliment Jones after a pedestrian game.
Dexter Lawrence was picked a 13 picks later than Jones and had a pedestrian season last year, and is on his 3rd system. Imagine how ridiculous it would be to replace Jones with Lawrence in that quote.
Yes, we're 2-0, but I don't think anyone would say DJ is a major reason why. There's still a ton of season to go so let's see how things play out, but-gun to head-I think we're going shopping for a new QB in next year's draft.
That is solid advice for many situations
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Yikes. Link - ( New Window )
That can be a sign of a few things but moving up in the pocket when not necessary is something to keep a eye on. It can be a overwhelmed type of issue or he is confused which can be a little system related. Moving like that (forwards) or leaving a good pocket to the outside is generally not good. At least for a pocket passer imv. Something worth keeping a eye on.
I wonder if Daboll & Kafka have stressed to DJ to step up in the pocket more, and he’s overdoing it. I’ve always felt he panics a bit and runs out of the pocket even when he has room to step up.
That is solid advice for many situations
100%.
I just don’t think Jones warrants any of that treatment. But, as SFGF says, the 5th year option was declined.
Not so much with the thinking that Manning can play as long as he wants.
One can reasonably argue the first statement. The other is bad business.
This isn't Eli. Eli won 2 Super Bowls here. I get the attachment. Hell, I'm guilty of it too. I'm glad Eli only played for us. But Jones is a completely different story. Other than looking like Eli & the Cutcliffe connection, I don't get Mara's love for this kid.
Ultimately Manning just got his teeth kicked in for a few more years, and then got benched. I’m assuming everyone agrees that sucked.
The owner simply just shouldn’t have favorite players. And if he does, he should have the good sense to keep it as much to himself as he can.
Ultimately Manning just got his teeth kicked in for a few more years, and then got benched. I’m assuming everyone agrees that sucked.
The owner simply just shouldn’t have favorite players. And if he does, he should have the good sense to keep it as much to himself as he can.
Do the Giants get the benefit of branding with Eli if they cut bait in 2018 and he finishes his career with Jacksonville? I don’t know either way, but I’m sure holding onto Eli has been good business for the franchise and I don’t know if the prospect of going 7-9 with a Bridgewater/Darnold QB room would be enough to sway Mara after the fan backlash.
You make a good point though, Eli did get his teeth smashed in and another playoff run elsewhere could have done his playing legacy better.
Other than looking like Eli & the Cutcliffe connection, I don't get Mara's love for this kid.
Could be that it’s because it’s all in your mind…
I lived in San Francisco for a bunch of years, and everyone loved Montana. No one cared he played in KC. I think the single team thing is overrated in the long run.
Mara got himself in the mess with the benching charade and the aftermath. I agree not much was going to cleanup that mess in the short term, but there have been some good QBs drafted since. That would have helped.