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Duggan on the Daniel Jones evaluation

Sean : 9/20/2022 11:46 am
Quote:
Jones has done enough to win the first two games, so that’s definitely progress. But there needs to be an understanding of the lens on Jones’ evaluation from Daboll and new general manager Joe Schoen.

This isn’t like Jones’ second or third season when he had time on his side. When Schoen decided not to exercise Jones’ fifth-year option for 2023, this became a make-or-break season for the 25-year-old. So the stakes are much higher.

Essentially, Jones needs to play well enough convince the new regime that he’s worthy of $31.5 million on the franchise tag in 2023. Otherwise, Schoen and Daboll will embark on a search for a quarterback to build around in the draft. They aligned themselves to take that path by declining Jones’ option.

Daboll and Schoen have seen first-hand the difference an elite quarterback makes. Daboll has five Super Bowl rings, thanks in large part to Tom Brady, from his time as a Patriots assistant, while Daboll and Schoen were part of the group in Buffalo that chose Josh Allen with the seventh pick in the 2018 draft. Allen is in the conversation for the best quarterback in the league, and the Bills are Super Bowl favorites.

It’s important to keep all of that in mind while evaluating Jones this season, because the people who will make the ultimate decision on the quarterback’s future certainly will.

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DJ  
BigBlueJ : 9/20/2022 11:49 am : link
Will be a fine backup in this league. Good money, nothing to be ashamed of.
franchise tag or bust?  
KDavies : 9/20/2022 11:50 am : link
I don't agree with that premise. More likely franchise tag is used on Barkley. Also, possible Jones is re-signed without using the franchise tag for less than $31.5 million
Wow. Groundbreaking stuff.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/20/2022 11:51 am : link
No one ever thought of it from that angle before. Thank goodness for another unhealthy, obsessive thread on the same player. This completely changes everything. No, seriously.
RE: Wow. Groundbreaking stuff.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/20/2022 11:53 am : link
In comment 15824983 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
No one ever thought of it from that angle before. Thank goodness for another unhealthy, obsessive thread on the same player. This completely changes everything. No, seriously.


LOL
There are other less expensive tags  
ZogZerg : 9/20/2022 11:55 am : link
So far Jones hasn't earned any of them

He needs to improve quickly.
RE: Wow. Groundbreaking stuff.  
Sean : 9/20/2022 11:55 am : link
In comment 15824983 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
No one ever thought of it from that angle before. Thank goodness for another unhealthy, obsessive thread on the same player. This completely changes everything. No, seriously.

Duggan is my favorite writer on the Giants beat. His articles always have good insight.
The only way Jones is getting franchised  
Captplanet : 9/20/2022 11:58 am : link
or close to $30M a year is if the Giants win the superbowl. Anything short of that, no other team can go to their fan base and say... "we stole Danny Dimes from the Giants."
and I hope the Giants are smart enough not to negotiate against themselves.
Unless Jones  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/20/2022 11:58 am : link
Improves dramatically, he won’t be here next season. Not all his fault, with his No.1 and 2 receivers being no shows in the first 2 weeks of the season and an interior offensive line that can’t block anyone. I wish Daniel well, on his next team.
Yeah...  
Dnew15 : 9/20/2022 11:59 am : link
Duggan is solid...

But nothing he wrote here is an original thought.
Another posssibility  
Fred in Atlanta : 9/20/2022 11:59 am : link
is that they agree on a contract for considerably less than the tags.
He's on the Sam Darnold/Baker Mayfield career arc.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/20/2022 12:06 pm : link
Not good enough to keep, good enough for someone somewhere to take a chance on 'fixing' him.
RE: franchise tag or bust?  
Pepe LePugh : 9/20/2022 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15824981 KDavies said:
Quote:
I don't agree with that premise. More likely franchise tag is used on Barkley. Also, possible Jones is re-signed without using the franchise tag for less than $31.5 million

Agree with this. There’s no guarantee that a Brady, Allen, Mahomes type prospect will be available in the draft. There’s so many holes that need to be filled to give ANY new QB a viable foundation. A reasonable contract for DJ may still be the best bet for growth of the team.
I can see a 3 year  
DJ5150 : 9/20/2022 12:08 pm : link
45 million plus incentives type extension…no way can they franchise him.
To be fair..  
Sean : 9/20/2022 12:09 pm : link
The 2023 QB class is considered to be strong and any of them will be cheaper than Jones.
Im sure Daboll/Schoen  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/20/2022 12:21 pm : link
Want their own guy in the building. A kid they can grow from the ground up like they did Allen. Jones is now on his 3rd coach and seems to be damaged goods from his previous offensive coordinator. Unless we have a deep playoff run, I can’t see him back here.
RE: Wow. Groundbreaking stuff.  
Section331 : 9/20/2022 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15824983 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
No one ever thought of it from that angle before. Thank goodness for another unhealthy, obsessive thread on the same player. This completely changes everything. No, seriously.


It’s something written by a Giants beat writer, and a good one at that. That you don’t like to get your feelings hurt by something remotely negative about Jones deontology mean it’s not relevant.
I'm reminded of the old adage  
NYRiese : 9/20/2022 12:23 pm : link
"Be CAREFUL what you wish for"
.......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 9/20/2022 12:23 pm : link
He'll need to play well to get a big contract - news at 11
If they can get Jones to play like he did  
Dave on the UWS : 9/20/2022 12:26 pm : link
his rookie year, without hesitation (for the most part), they probably would go forward with him.
I think he has picked up some bad habits and liabilities the last 2 years. I think getting the best out of him is a longshot. Not impossible, but unlikely.
RE: I can see a 3 year  
JonC : 9/20/2022 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15825008 DJ5150 said:
Quote:
45 million plus incentives type extension…no way can they franchise him.


Pretty much a poor outcome, tied to a mediocre QB for another three years.
This is why I don't get to the same stress level regarding Jones  
PatersonPlank : 9/20/2022 12:26 pm : link
as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.

I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
RE: franchise tag or bust?  
Ivan15 : 9/20/2022 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15824981 KDavies said:
Quote:
I don't agree with that premise. More likely franchise tag is used on Barkley. Also, possible Jones is re-signed without using the franchise tag for less than $31.5 million

_____________________________________________
I agree. If they don’t tag him, they can still sign Jones as a free agent, especially if he doesn’t get a good offer on the free agent market. The point is that, unless he is tagged, Jones’ future is in his hands. That future may or may not be with the Giants. I know I may be dreaming but if the Giants run off 10-11 wins, Jones may look pretty good to Seattle, Carolina, Houston.
______________________________________________
This franchise stuff is completely ludicrous  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2022 12:28 pm : link
Hes going to get offers in the 2 years / 15 M range like his peers. Why would anyone not laugh him out of the room for demanding $30 M+?
RE: Another posssibility  
Dr. D : 9/20/2022 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15824994 Fred in Atlanta said:
Quote:
is that they agree on a contract for considerably less than the tags.

Yeah, I don't understand why this possibility is never considered.

Everyone seems to assume that if Jones has a decent year, he's going to get 30+ million from some team and Giant fans are adamant that it shouldn't be the Giants. But what if, even if Jones has a really good year, no team wants to pay him that kind of money, off just one really good year? Couldn't Jones and the Giants agree to a 2 yr contract for an amount most would consider reasonable (relatively) and let him (hopefully) prove he's worth a longer term deal?
RE: This is why I don't get to the same stress level regarding Jones  
Sean : 9/20/2022 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15825036 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.

I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.

Good post.
But the problem is not the money  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2022 12:29 pm : link
The problem is that he's not good enough. If he played for free, we still wouldn't want him to be our starter. Its almost impossible to win consistently with this level of QB
RE: Wow. Groundbreaking stuff.  
Mad Mike : 9/20/2022 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15824983 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
No one ever thought of it from that angle before. Thank goodness for another unhealthy, obsessive thread on the same player. This completely changes everything. No, seriously.

Yeah, this was real master of the obvious stuff from Duggan.
I think Daboll seems great  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2022 12:31 pm : link
but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
RE: I think Daboll seems great  
Sean : 9/20/2022 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.

I think this is a stretch. Why wasn’t the 5th year option exercised then?
I actually disagree  
Mike in Long Beach : 9/20/2022 12:35 pm : link
with some of the comments here on this thread being another incessant Jones thread that provides nothing new. This one isn't about "he sucks" or "he's a victim of the system."

I think it's a fair statement on how the evaluation of Jones has shifted this year (opinion on the franchise tag part specifically not withstanding). Given that his option wasn't picked up, Jones being "good enough not to loose" likely is no longer enough to retain him. So even if you don't hate Jones like some do, and I don't.... I do think it's fair to say that through 2 games, the needle has moved further towards Jones leaving after this year than staying.
RE: I think Daboll seems great  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2022 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.


Yeah this is terrifying. We are currently doing a nice job of rebuilding. Prior to next season, there is one thing that could destroy our chances of building a competitive team this decade- extending Daniel Jones. If we do that, we have almost no chance to compete at the top of the league.

Mara is the risk. And it is a scary one for the fan base
RE: RE: I think Daboll seems great  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2022 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15825053 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.


I think this is a stretch. Why wasn’t the 5th year option exercised then?


Because it was a nice compromise between Daboll / Schoen and Mara. Conventional wisdom say trade the incumbent underperforming QB, Mara probably wanted to give the option. They met in the middle on keeping him and not picking up the option as I see it.

Which is why in the offseason I could see meeting in the middle being something like a 2 year $40M deal. I'd see that as a good case if they go to the playoffs. Mara might just win and get the long term deal.

Might seem out of place but I thought it was quite out of place for the owner to name the QB starter prior to the season as well.
RE: This is why I don't get to the same stress level regarding Jones  
Dr. D : 9/20/2022 12:40 pm : link
In comment 15825036 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.

I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.

I agree 100%
RE: RE: I think Daboll seems great  
JonC : 9/20/2022 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15825057 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.



Yeah this is terrifying. We are currently doing a nice job of rebuilding. Prior to next season, there is one thing that could destroy our chances of building a competitive team this decade- extending Daniel Jones. If we do that, we have almost no chance to compete at the top of the league.

Mara is the risk. And it is a scary one for the fan base


+1
RE: I can see a 3 year  
Dinger : 9/20/2022 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15825008 DJ5150 said:
Quote:
45 million plus incentives type extension…no way can they franchise him.

This was something I was considering. Unless he has some kind of wild break out season in the 2nd half, which is a possibility with this staff, his talent and if some of the weapons/ol come along, I cant see him sniffing the franchise tag. But honestly, 1st rd QBs or QBs in any round are a crap shoot. If Jones can stay healthy and improve steadily to the point where you trust him to be a Phil Simms type QB, sign him.
Daboll said the job of the Qb is to take the team down the field  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/20/2022 12:43 pm : link
and score -- that's what Jones is not doing at a very high level right now.
RE: I think Daboll seems great  
Mike in Long Beach : 9/20/2022 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.


I disagree. Our $18 million dollar wide receiver saw 2 snaps last week, and our explosive WR who actually played relatively well when healthy isn't being given a pass and large snap share, either. He's not making decisions based on Mara's preconceived notions.

He's playing guys who he think can give us best chance to win. There were no tempting QBs available with our early picks. So Jones is getting an opportunity to prove himself. Whether we like it or not, Jones was actually the best option out there for 2022 other than Jimmy G.
the current regime did not pick jones  
TJ : 9/20/2022 12:45 pm : link
he's not an established star.
Short of carrying this team to the conference championship or going to the pro bowl he is gone. Fair, not fair, who knows. But that's how it is. Jones is auditioning for his next team.
RE: RE: I think Daboll seems great  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15825070 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
In comment 15825050 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


but I can't ignore the fact that most incumbent underperforming QBs get traded when a new GM / Coach arrive.

Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.

I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.



I disagree. Our $18 million dollar wide receiver saw 2 snaps last week, and our explosive WR who actually played relatively well when healthy isn't being given a pass and large snap share, either. He's not making decisions based on Mara's preconceived notions.

He's playing guys who he think can give us best chance to win. There were no tempting QBs available with our early picks. So Jones is getting an opportunity to prove himself. Whether we like it or not, Jones was actually the best option out there for 2022 other than Jimmy G.


Ummmmm last I checked Mara didn't get up and gush about KG this offseason and hand him a starting job. How can you not see the difference in that? I never said Jones would get played because of money, no one did. Mara loves him and clearly gives him different treatment. How you don't see that I don't know
RE: the current regime did not pick jones  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2022 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15825074 TJ said:
Quote:
he's not an established star.
Short of carrying this team to the conference championship or going to the pro bowl he is gone. Fair, not fair, who knows. But that's how it is. Jones is auditioning for his next team.


I really think it can't be stressed enough that typically an underperforming QB like Jones is traded when a new regime comes in. It's cleaner, you get a fresh start, you get to have "your guy" at QB. The fact that he wasn't is actually kind of a rare case. You are applying logic to it but there was nothing logical or smart about Mara naming Jones the starter before the season
After 2 GMs and head coach #4  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/20/2022 12:50 pm : link
In a just world, on the day they make a final decision on Jones Mara needs to be barred from the room.
I think Duggan has a bit of a blind spot here  
Metnut : 9/20/2022 12:55 pm : link
It's not a simple binary choice between Jones being gone from NYG or getting tagged/long term deal.

A more likely outcome IMO is the Giants win 7-10 games against a soft schedule this year and they offer Jones a Jameis Winston type 2 year/$30M deal. Jones gets to go into camp as the presumptive starter next year and gets some $$$, while Deboll/Schoen can either draft a QB first round if they like someone, draft a developmental QB later on, or just ride it with Jones and Taylor again and keep their long-term QB options open while upgrading the roster with their QB only having a modest cap hit.

If the Giants are picking in the 12-20 range, it's going to be extremely expensive to trade up and get one of the top few QBs.
Two games into the  
rebel yell : 9/20/2022 12:59 pm : link
season and they're both wins. It doesn't matter. I don't see Schoen and Daboll having any interest in bringing him back. He's DG's boy. Also--I give Wink most of the credit for our 2-0 start.
To add on to my above post...  
Metnut : 9/20/2022 12:59 pm : link
if Jones is no worse and no better than a top 20-25 QB, then upgrading the roster while looking for an opportunity to upgrade at QB later on either through the draft or an acquisition (which LAR, TB, DEN, CLE and IND have all attempted to do with varying degrees of success) isn't a bad plan.

It's not a killer to keep riding with Jones for a few more years while looking for the right time to go all-in on a better QB. What the Giants have to avoid doing is getting into a Kirk Cousins type of contract where they are paying a huge cap hit to a QB who isn't a top 10 guy. That's a trap to avoid IMO.
Why does there need to be a franchise tag.....  
nym172 : 9/20/2022 1:18 pm : link
Mitch Trubisky commanded a 7 million dollar contract.....


They can easily negotiate a lower contract for year 5. Its not franchise tag or bust.
Why does everyone assume  
mdthedream : 9/20/2022 1:21 pm : link
if he plays well he gets like 30mill? There is no way he even gets close to that money. He should be happy getting a offer at this time at about 7mill and he gets to continue to improve. No one is going to pay him top dollar so that is off the board. He should realize that the Giants are his best shot seeing they invested in him. If he leaves and sucks one year later he is all done in the nfl at any good money.
Look at the money the Vikes have lavished on Kirk Cousins  
GiantBlue : 9/20/2022 1:31 pm : link
and they haven't won a thing.....in fact they came closest when they had Case Keenum as their QB and Diggs as the WR1.

So, Jones. Jones is kind of similar to Cousins except maybe a little more mobile. Cousins has top level talent at the skill positions and always seems to have his share of doink games.

I admittedly was calling out for Tyrod after Sunday's first half.......

This team needs to find the guy that will elevate the talent around him. Cousins doesn't do it....neither does most of the QB's in the league. They guys that do win and win consistently.

Our options are in the draft or free agency...ala Lamar Jackson. We should focus on that. Schoen is.
Let's not miss the forest for the trees  
Bill in UT : 9/20/2022 1:40 pm : link
The objective is winning. We're 2-0 with him at QB, despite a still leaky OL, no WRs, and injuries on D. Let's see how the year plays out. There's no need to reach a conclusion on him today.
In another thread  
Paul326 : 9/20/2022 1:40 pm : link
I talked about possibility the team has a reasonably good season and what that would do to their draft position say mid teens to low twenties. They probably won't be in line to draft any of the top QB prospects. So what will Schoen & Daboll do? Resign Jones to a short term deal & fill any of the number of holes in this roster with BPA, or do they throw a boat load of picks at somebody to move down to get a shot at one of the upper their QB's (early returns right now aren't as high on this QB class as they were at the end of last season but it's early)? I doubt they try and lure any of the top FA QB's because of the amount of Benjamin's required to get that kind of deal done. So in this scenario would I be surprised that Jones was still in blue I'd have to say no.
RE: Look at the money the Vikes have lavished on Kirk Cousins  
lax counsel : 9/20/2022 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15825169 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
and they haven't won a thing.....in fact they came closest when they had Case Keenum as their QB and Diggs as the WR1.

So, Jones. Jones is kind of similar to Cousins except maybe a little more mobile. Cousins has top level talent at the skill positions and always seems to have his share of doink games.

I admittedly was calling out for Tyrod after Sunday's first half.......

This team needs to find the guy that will elevate the talent around him. Cousins doesn't do it....neither does most of the QB's in the league. They guys that do win and win consistently.

Our options are in the draft or free agency...ala Lamar Jackson. We should focus on that. Schoen is.


Jones hasn't produced in any way remotely close to Cousins in this league. That's saying a lot, because Cousins is fools.
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