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| Jones has done enough to win the first two games, so that’s definitely progress. But there needs to be an understanding of the lens on Jones’ evaluation from Daboll and new general manager Joe Schoen. This isn’t like Jones’ second or third season when he had time on his side. When Schoen decided not to exercise Jones’ fifth-year option for 2023, this became a make-or-break season for the 25-year-old. So the stakes are much higher. Essentially, Jones needs to play well enough convince the new regime that he’s worthy of $31.5 million on the franchise tag in 2023. Otherwise, Schoen and Daboll will embark on a search for a quarterback to build around in the draft. They aligned themselves to take that path by declining Jones’ option. Daboll and Schoen have seen first-hand the difference an elite quarterback makes. Daboll has five Super Bowl rings, thanks in large part to Tom Brady, from his time as a Patriots assistant, while Daboll and Schoen were part of the group in Buffalo that chose Josh Allen with the seventh pick in the 2018 draft. Allen is in the conversation for the best quarterback in the league, and the Bills are Super Bowl favorites. It’s important to keep all of that in mind while evaluating Jones this season, because the people who will make the ultimate decision on the quarterback’s future certainly will. |
It’s either a long term deal or he’s gone. The new regime isn’t going to wait another year to know if Jones is good or not.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
Fairly confident everyone will keeping their shit
The fact that they didn't pick up Jones's 5th year option was quite a tell to me. I didn't see that coming because I was convinced, despite what Mara said about Schoen controlling all football operations, that Jones was Mara's adopted son, and Mara would retain any final decision(s) on anything Jones.
But I could also see Schoen and Mara reaching a compromise on Jones last April. Mara would give up the 5th year option, but Schoen would have to evaluate Jones for one more year.
While I hope Schoen does have the decision-making gavel for all personnel decisions, in my mind it's still a big TBD the weight Mara carries on the final decision on Jones next off-season.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
This is not college where you recruit a QB. Lots of things have to go your way and then your evaluation has to be really good. Record, timing, talent in draft, etc. all play factors.
JS will try to make a move in the draft if they like someone but it very well may not be enough and the Giants have to find a alternative.
Keep building the team and strike when possible. It can take years and many times a HC change occurs as well.
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
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In comment 15825208 WillieYoung said:
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
Nobody hates Jones. You have irrational support for him and have to demonize others to justify your position. He's been terrible and somehow it's easier to blame us.
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that have watched John Mara and the Giants for all this time and still think he's going to be hands off on the Jones decision but I certainly can't get there.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
I wasn't a they are keeping Abrams for sure guy but I definitely thought it was possible. No complaints from me though, they made more changes than I thought even if I really wanted to see them move on from Siam too. I also thought Brown was a good snag.
I guess I've always thought of Mara more as an appearances guy, he always seemed like a guy that wanted to do just enough to keep the pitchforks away while still getting what he wants. To me, he had to do this and sell the "autonomy" to get people to put down their pitchforks.
The way he's handled himself with this Jones stuff to me very much says, I'm giving you autonomy unless I really care about something. It was most definitely a public toe stepping on Daboll and JS to say what he did about Jones starting. To me it shows a lack of real commitment to being hands off and something he is forcing himself to do because of the headwinds he faced to the old ways.
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In comment 15825211 Sean said:
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In comment 15825208 WillieYoung said:
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are a few on here that definitely hate Jones and will take a thread on why the sky is blue and turn it into a Jones sucks thread
Nobody hates Jones. You have irrational support for him and have to demonize others to justify your position. He's been terrible and somehow it's easier to blame us.
Luckily there is enough talent on this roster to be 2-0 despite how terrible Jones has been.
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I could see them offering Jones the $22 Mil he would have had on the 5th year option and he would be a fool not to take it. Hope it happens just to see the Jones haters lose their shit.
What a strange comment. There are no “Jones haters” just NYG fans who want to see the team succeed. But it sounds like you are a Daniel Jones fan, not a Giants fan.
There are without a doubt Jones haters, my friend. Don't go on Twitter if you don't want to see him. In the aftermath of every win, there are countless people solely posting All-22 videos of every time Jones misses a receiver.
I'm not lumping you in with that, but let's be real. It's a very real thing.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think a lot of things have occurred in that front office since January that have been markedly different than what many of the more vocal BBI posters were expecting. I can find plenty of threads that speak to how folks said the Giants were never going to change with respect to any of their internal hiring processes, legacy personnel, external candidates considered, etc. Yet, they did.
Daniel Jones not getting that 5th year extension was driven by the very guys they brought in to change things. I actually don't have a hard time seeing that Mara will be consulted on the Jones decision and agree with what the GM and Coach tell him...
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
What we need to see is several drives a game like the one at the start of the third quarter. Jones looked like a quarterback you can win on that score.
What we need to see is several drives a game like the one at the start of the third quarter. Jones looked like a quarterback you can win on that score.
Very fair Joe as always.
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In comment 15825230 NoGainDayne said:
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that have watched John Mara and the Giants for all this time and still think he's going to be hands off on the Jones decision but I certainly can't get there.
If the Giants have 7 wins or more I have a hard time seeing Jones not the starting QB again next year. But I'd love to see us finish with more than 7 wins and have Jones play similarly and see him shown the door. That would give me a lot of hope for the future of this team
I think this is a fair concern. But I will say this, Mara did a lot more than people thought he would (I think including you as well). We could always want more (let go of Abrams, move off Jones), but I’m pleased with the amount of change. Brandon Brown from a strong organization in the Eagles is a prime example. Letting go of Chris Pettit.
I suppose it’s possible Mara could interfere and demand to keep Jones, but it would be strange considering all the outside influence he gave Schoen autonomy to bring in.
I wasn't a they are keeping Abrams for sure guy but I definitely thought it was possible. No complaints from me though, they made more changes than I thought even if I really wanted to see them move on from Siam too. I also thought Brown was a good snag.
I guess I've always thought of Mara more as an appearances guy, he always seemed like a guy that wanted to do just enough to keep the pitchforks away while still getting what he wants. To me, he had to do this and sell the "autonomy" to get people to put down their pitchforks.
The way he's handled himself with this Jones stuff to me very much says, I'm giving you autonomy unless I really care about something. It was most definitely a public toe stepping on Daboll and JS to say what he did about Jones starting. To me it shows a lack of real commitment to being hands off and something he is forcing himself to do because of the headwinds he faced to the old ways.
There is definitely some truth to this. Although, I don’t understand the loyalty to Jones if he has another typical year for him. I could always understand it with Eli, just not Jones.
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
Daboll was named OC in Buffalo in January 2018. Taylor was traded in March 2018. They drafted Allen in April 2018.
Schoen was hired as assistant GM in May 2017.
1. Giants finish around 7-10, 8-9, or even 9-8 with Daniel Jones continuing to be Daniel Jones - flashes of athleticism, surrounded by bad play, low offensive output, and bad instincts/turnovers that consistently put us behind the 8-ball.
2. Giants draft in the 12-20 range next year.
3. Giants have to spend significant draft capital to trade up.
4. Because of 1, 2, and 3, Mara meddles and makes the decision more difficult for Schoen/Daboll. Maybe he even prevents them from trading up to get their guy. To be clear, he has ALREADY meddled by lauding and making excuses for DJ in the pre-season, which suggests that DJ is held to a different standard than other QBs, so just imagine what he'll say/do if we go 9-8 and sneak into the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is a symptom of everything that's wrong with this franchise and John Mara is the most important person who doesn't see it. We're still in trouble so long as he thinks his opinion is relevant.
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Was a Tyrod led bills team that snuck into the playoffs if i recall correctly?
They were still able to land josh allen the following draft. I'm not using that as a supporting argument in the slightest, alot of stars need to align for that to happen and it's not like they're saying "welp we'll just trade up for a superstar QB that falls".
But just simply stating their history in the "decent rebuilding team that wins games while needing a future QB" space.
Daboll was named OC in Buffalo in January 2018. Taylor was traded in March 2018. They drafted Allen in April 2018.
Schoen was hired as assistant GM in May 2017.
...welp! lol
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
I mean surely with our James Richie lead space age aerial assault they're running around wide open and free all day long.
There are a lot of dummies who can't spell "led" also.
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as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
Good post.
Agreed. The only little wrinkle I would add is what if Jones plays JUST a little bit better...and the Giants win enough games where they are picking in the 20s...and the QBs that might be available in the teens, with a trade up don't necessarily give one the warm and fuzzies...and there isn't any stud QB in FA that jumps out at you...maybe Jimmy G being the exception and how the hell do the Niners let him walk after the injury to the kid?
We all expected the team to go 6-11 or 5-12 and watch Jones struggle--this could still happen, but if it ends up somewhere in the 9-10 win range with Jones looking OK--not great, but OK, then what?
Would be nice to have our own Allen or Herbert.
Not that we had the chance to draft those two or something.
some one I know and love just emailed me a retort on this - "except for when it counts?"
so let me say this:
The last two games have been great, and it's true the offense did just enough to win. But the first half of both games was not a great look for a franchise QB. A franchise QB gets behind center, looks like they are in control, and takes his team down the field and scores TDs like they are flexing some muscle. They do no save as a once a game serving. And they certainly don't hold back after getting a turnover with great field position and routinely not punch it in. That may work against teams like Tenn and Carolina, but it is not a recipe for success.
I need to see some QB muscle being flexed more routinely and not only on an emergency basis.
I have very little respect left for Mara's choices but if things were that dysfunctional Daboll and Schoen wouldn't be here, and Joe Judge probably would be.
DJ will realize that no other team is paying 30M/ and he will agree to stay for a reasonable amount
NYG get to delay the qb decision one more year and focus on other spots like WR, CB...
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In comment 15825036 PatersonPlank said:
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as a lot of people here. He is what we have now and they are trying to win around him, and build a team. Moving forward I am very comfortable that Daboll, better than most, knows what a top QB looks like and what they can do to a team. He will make the right decision on Jones, and none of it will come from uninformed opinions on message boards. He knows what he is asking Jones to do and how Jones is proceeding.
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not, but I'm sure Daboll is forming that opinion as we speak, and I am very confident he will do the right thing.
Good post.
Agreed. The only little wrinkle I would add is what if Jones plays JUST a little bit better...and the Giants win enough games where they are picking in the 20s...and the QBs that might be available in the teens, with a trade up don't necessarily give one the warm and fuzzies...and there isn't any stud QB in FA that jumps out at you...maybe Jimmy G being the exception and how the hell do the Niners let him walk after the injury to the kid?
We all expected the team to go 6-11 or 5-12 and watch Jones struggle--this could still happen, but if it ends up somewhere in the 9-10 win range with Jones looking OK--not great, but OK, then what?
Quit looking for reasons to keep Jones. He is not a good passer and not a good qb. You want to go places, we can't be dependent on the field goal kicker being perfect.
So far, I've seen nothing to make me think he's long the long term answer.
Why do you talk like Skeletor? Sickening fools? Lol
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
Some of you are just weird - Mara is NOT going to stand in Schoen and Daboll's way when they cut bait.
And ok, perhaps there are not Jones "haters" as in the definition of hate. But there are a rabid 6-12 that without fail will knock down any praise for him. Call it what you want - detractors, dissenters, haters, realists. But no matter how small the praise the knives are out.
And just because some pass a mild kudo to him doesn't make them a apologists. After the Rams game last year I decided he is not the franchise QB. I still believe it and am pretty certain he will be a FA elsewhere next season. But that does not mean I will not give him praise when warranted. I want to see the team win and be competitive. He is a good guy that works hard and puts the time in. He does not have the goods to carry a team, IMHO.
FWIW
1. Giants finish around 7-10, 8-9, or even 9-8 with Daniel Jones continuing to be Daniel Jones - flashes of athleticism, surrounded by bad play, low offensive output, and bad instincts/turnovers that consistently put us behind the 8-ball.
2. Giants draft in the 12-20 range next year.
3. Giants have to spend significant draft capital to trade up.
4. Because of 1, 2, and 3, Mara meddles and makes the decision more difficult for Schoen/Daboll. Maybe he even prevents them from trading up to get their guy. To be clear, he has ALREADY meddled by lauding and making excuses for DJ in the pre-season, which suggests that DJ is held to a different standard than other QBs, so just imagine what he'll say/do if we go 9-8 and sneak into the playoffs.
Daniel Jones is a symptom of everything that's wrong with this franchise and John Mara is the most important person who doesn't see it. We're still in trouble so long as he thinks his opinion is relevant.
You really went off the rails at number four. Cmon man.
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Or nothing. It's the stupidest take I can think of. So Schoen isn't allowed to offer him a 2 year 30 million dollar contract in case he is mediocre and the Giants are still not certain. It's 31.5 or nothing. I guess being creative is just too hard to figure.
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
This is a bit misleading. Cap hit in a given year tells you little about what a QB is getting paid. Matt Ryan is getting paid $50MM over 2 years guaranteed. THat is $25MM. Wilson is getting $160 over 4 years guaranteed (i.e. $40 per).
Additionally, there are people on that list that I would take DJ over - Wentz, Darnold, Ryan. And there is almost no one on that list that I would really want at their current contract - Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, Burrow, Deshaun (not counting legal woes). the rest are either not enough of an improvement over our current situation or just too expensive.
I still think it is big contract or nothing for DJ here, and that means probably nothing. But if he plays OK and more importantly we don't have a better option (high draft pick is just too much to go for and can't afford Lamar) I would be OK with giving him a mid range deal. Heck maybe Mara's big plan is to tread water for a few years and then go after Arch!
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
That is important. The reality is, most owners meddle, especially at the QB position. The Eagles process gets praised here, but their owner probably meddles more than Mara. Ask Doug Pederson what he thinks about having to meet with the owner weekly to go over playcalling. However, they’ve won and that scathing article regarding the Eagles about their front office is now forgotten.
Your point is valid though if the Giants go 9-8/10-7 and sneak into a playoff spot. Mara may prefer status quo. But, as Joe Schoen said in his intro presser part of his job is to sell the owner on what is best for the franchise.
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at all.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
That is important. The reality is, most owners meddle, especially at the QB position. The Eagles process gets praised here, but their owner probably meddles more than Mara. Ask Doug Pederson what he thinks about having to meet with the owner weekly to go over playcalling. However, they’ve won and that scathing article regarding the Eagles about their front office is now forgotten.
Your point is valid though if the Giants go 9-8/10-7 and sneak into a playoff spot. Mara may prefer status quo. But, as Joe Schoen said in his intro presser part of his job is to sell the owner on what is best for the franchise.
What is your definition of meddling? If I had a $4 Billion enterprise I am absolutely going to keep tabs on what goes on. What owner of any company is not going to question his executives and VPs.
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In comment 15825519 PaulN said:
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Or nothing. It's the stupidest take I can think of. So Schoen isn't allowed to offer him a 2 year 30 million dollar contract in case he is mediocre and the Giants are still not certain. It's 31.5 or nothing. I guess being creative is just too hard to figure.
Here are Quarterbacks around the $15m cap hit range.
The level to which jones would have to be to fit in with this group is highly unlikely to see for this season
This is a bit misleading. Cap hit in a given year tells you little about what a QB is getting paid. Matt Ryan is getting paid $50MM over 2 years guaranteed. THat is $25MM. Wilson is getting $160 over 4 years guaranteed (i.e. $40 per).
Additionally, there are people on that list that I would take DJ over - Wentz, Darnold, Ryan. And there is almost no one on that list that I would really want at their current contract - Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, Burrow, Deshaun (not counting legal woes). the rest are either not enough of an improvement over our current situation or just too expensive.
I still think it is big contract or nothing for DJ here, and that means probably nothing. But if he plays OK and more importantly we don't have a better option (high draft pick is just too much to go for and can't afford Lamar) I would be OK with giving him a mid range deal. Heck maybe Mara's big plan is to tread water for a few years and then go after Arch!
For the purposes of the suggested 2 year 30 million dollar deal there's not much creative you can do with it. And the cap hit is what really matters in terms of team-building.
And JS and BD won't be the first or last people that are sold on a job a certain way and have found it to be different as time went on and their bosses became more comfortable.
Facts are Chris got his nice personnel title back. John is naming the starter before the season. And we have a mountain of data of the Mara's being a highly meddlesome bunch. Not sure what is so ridiculous about saying let's get some time collecting some real proof of a change in the data before declaring it fixed and waving the mission accomplished banner.
Furthermore, few GMs get the luxury of their owners not meddling I doubt that is table stakes at all. It's the grey area of how much meddling that is the real unknown.
And I don't think anyone can speak to that reliably, I'm not saying Jones being forced on the team after a mediocre season is the dominant probability. But it certainly is possibly that he is retained due to strong influence from the Mara gang.
Ownership meddling occurs more often when things aren't going well. As the Giants have gone bad, Mara has been more involved to try to 'fix it', by his own admission.
If the Giants finish this season playing respectable football in the same way they started this season, I find it highly unrealistic Mara is going to choose that moment to take the wheel and start issuing edicts. He will be too busy taking a victory lap that it's not another bad year after a near decade of bad years.
Again, I have a low opinion of him. But this scenario doesn't fit with the person.
Yup.