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| Jones has done enough to win the first two games, so that’s definitely progress. But there needs to be an understanding of the lens on Jones’ evaluation from Daboll and new general manager Joe Schoen. This isn’t like Jones’ second or third season when he had time on his side. When Schoen decided not to exercise Jones’ fifth-year option for 2023, this became a make-or-break season for the 25-year-old. So the stakes are much higher. Essentially, Jones needs to play well enough convince the new regime that he’s worthy of $31.5 million on the franchise tag in 2023. Otherwise, Schoen and Daboll will embark on a search for a quarterback to build around in the draft. They aligned themselves to take that path by declining Jones’ option. Daboll and Schoen have seen first-hand the difference an elite quarterback makes. Daboll has five Super Bowl rings, thanks in large part to Tom Brady, from his time as a Patriots assistant, while Daboll and Schoen were part of the group in Buffalo that chose Josh Allen with the seventh pick in the 2018 draft. Allen is in the conversation for the best quarterback in the league, and the Bills are Super Bowl favorites. It’s important to keep all of that in mind while evaluating Jones this season, because the people who will make the ultimate decision on the quarterback’s future certainly will. |
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
Can he still force it? Sure, he’s the owner. But nothing that has transpired this offseason suggests that will happen unless Jones has a big year.
Again, I have a low opinion of him. But this scenario doesn't fit with the person.
most of the conspiracy theories re: mara don't add up. he's been a meddling spineless pushover afraid of making decisions for a decade, but in just a few months a spine will emerge and he's going to overrule his new regime in a way he didn't when they declined the 5yo a couple months ago.
meanwhile has anyone left the organization and said a bad thing about working for him?
sometimes the obvious answer is the right one, and the obvious one in mara's case is that he's just not good at hiring decisions. i'd be surprised if schoen ever does anything that impresses mara more than the fact that he led him away from the flores landmine - which he no doubt would have stepped on if left to his own judgement.
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
I am confident, he chose his GM and will not get in his way.
i think his true come to jesus moment was the flores lawsuit. we all know how badly mara probably wanted to hire him if not for schoen correctly choosing what to him was a more known quantity. if mara didn't know to stay out of his GMs way ahead of that he surely thanked the stars after the fact.
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I think so too. I think Mara had his 'Come to Jesus' moment this past offseason when this franchise was a laughingstock on non sports shows following us doing QB sneaks on 3rd & long.
i think his true come to jesus moment was the flores lawsuit. we all know how badly mara probably wanted to hire him if not for schoen correctly choosing what to him was a more known quantity. if mara didn't know to stay out of his GMs way ahead of that he surely thanked the stars after the fact.
This is an interesting point. I also thought Mara not speaking at training camp was noteworthy.
yeah i mean i love everything so far but it could very well just be 2 games like Rhule starting 2-0 last year. my point was less predicting his future success and more commentary on the bullet dodged with flores. its not at all impossible that he still would have filed his suit against the nfl/dolphins after getting hired by nyg. that would have been a mess.
Can he still force it? Sure, he’s the owner. But nothing that has transpired this offseason suggests that will happen unless Jones has a big year.
This. If he was going to force him here he would have had them pick up the option under the guise of a two year trial period because the coach is new
I personally think Schoen will have free reign as to what to do, but there's always the possibility of Mara weighing in. And if he does, hopefully it's just his suggestion, not an ultimatum.
No, I don't think so. It's not Mara's place to suggest. He is to be consulted with and advised as to the GM's decision. He may have questions but it won't ever reach suggestion or ultimatum.
If Schoen and Daboll did it right when they decided on no 5th year option then they should have set the bar as to what is needed/required from Jones in 2022 to earn a rethink on an extension as a Giant. And that bar should have been communicated to the owners.
And since this is just fairly easy and logical steps any intelligent GM would have taken, I am assuming Schoen did it.
His ineptitude has been marked by inconsistency and then frustration. And those two weaknesses as an owner make him unpredictable when the going gets tough.
The best thing the Giants have going for them right now is the lack of holdovers from the Reese/Coughlin championship years. Mara has no old dogs to go back to who remind him of the good times.
The most dangerous thing in the organization is if hier apparent Tim McDonnell is as big of a butthole as the reporting over the Winter implied.
I'm not kidding when I say this, but the nadir may have been the Clown Central photo created by Eric's daughter. I want to say a few days later Judge got so defensive in a presser that he used the phrase "this isn't some clown show" trying to defend the organization.
I don't recall if any Asshats confirmed it, but I think that photo made some waves at 1925 Giants Way...
See I've explained this already on this thread but I'll do it again clearly.
Take a look at new coaching staffs / GMs with incumbent unsuccessful QBs more often than not they are traded. So Jones not being traded is more of a reflection of that influence than not.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that like most new regimes BD and JS would have preferred their own guy at QB but compromised on not picking up the option with the Mara clan to find middle ground. I don't consider it some kind of proof at all, not sure why people throw that around so much. I don't think Mara wants to steamroll his way over his GM anyway, I think much like the worry is this offseason there will be some grey area with ground to meet in the middle and it will continue to get DJ more of a chance than he deserves.
I think it’s likely Schoen/Daboll view Jones as a stop gap and it buys them a year. They will really be on the clock once they bring in their QB.
Lastly, Mara foolishly spoke about Jones on the day Schoen was introduced, but has been silent since. It’s also been the first time I can remember where he didn’t have a state of the franchise presser during training camp.
Mara speaking at the press conference naming Jones the starter I would say quite likely was a consensus about how all the Mara's feel about Jones. And that's where I think the danger lies too. I think they still probably believe that this Giants tradition and loyalty needs to be upheld on an ongoing basis and in that tradition I do believe they looked at Jones and said here is a strapping young chap, a smart hard worker! We will mold another Eli out of him!
I don't think there is anything to step away or back towards, I think they are fairly entrenched in this. Now I do not think he could stink this year and they could lose and Mara sell that to JS (and yes I do believe there is will need to be consensus building) That was the danger of DG IMO, I think DG still had to be sold on the things the Mara's wanted there was just too much insular thinking and patting each other on the back rubber stamping each others shitty ideas. I don't think any of the Mara's are bang their fist on the table and get their way types, I never said nor do I think they are going to ram DJ down anyone's throats.
I do think they would strongly advocate for keeping him on a short term deal if he keeps playing at this level and it's probably not going to be worth it for JS to piss off his boss and "co-workers" if he doesn't have a strong alternative lined up.
There is always a lot of grey area and this season is pointing to the grey the way it's heading. I'm happy for the wins. But those wins are making it ever more likely that Mara is going to be able to sell Jones. And I think that is the clear way to look at it.
P.S. RE Meddling: Most people that run multi-billion organizations family, not family, whatever do "meddle" run the business what have you. However, if they suck at it enough, they are consistently relieved of those duties. Now lord knows I don't expect that, but let's not pretend that it isn't a fair expectation for a business owner to stay out of the business. If their influence was as failure ridden as Mara's has that absolutely is a fair expectation in terms of this business size outside of the sports arena.
I think it’s likely Schoen/Daboll view Jones as a stop gap and it buys them a year. They will really be on the clock once they bring in their QB.
Lastly, Mara foolishly spoke about Jones on the day Schoen was introduced, but has been silent since. It’s also been the first time I can remember where he didn’t have a state of the franchise presser during training camp.
Here is where I am almost always at. I'm not saying the evidence I'm presenting proves that we only kept Jones because Mara wanted that, I'm not saying that at all.
It's the other side that basically wants to say, well we know Mara is hands off on this because the option wasn't picked up. And to that I say, woefully short of proof. Hence the perfectly reasonable scenario I presented. That's all really, I'd think Giants fans were tired of waving the mission accomplished banner on the "this front office is fixed" issue but wonder of wonders they are not.
I like to start out at trust but verify, but if upon investigation there proves to be reasons of distrust, I'm more of a verify then trust kind of person. I also thing that Mara talking about Jones thing is highly likely an iceberg situation. If he's ripping off Jones is the starter stuff publicly what was it like in the building? Did he really change after that or did he just realize (and hear) that he didn't have that kind of leeway at all with the fan base anymore.
This is a great litmus test though, if DJ isn't a Giant next year I'll have way more faith that he's serious about letting the professionals do their jobs.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Because YOUR qb evaluation couldn’t be wrong it would have to be Mara meddling? I guess that could be the refuge for a frail ego. And possibly the only reason to cling to the Mara loves Jones conspiracy. It’s quite a little safe space you built for yourself.
This is one of the dumbest ideas I have seen on here. It makes no sense
This shit is a business. Winning is good. Pissing off your customers is bad. Jones has no station, has accomplished nothing, not popular among the fan base, has not demonstrated he can win consistently.
What does Mara love about him? I guarantee in his decades as an owner he has let go of many players he liked personally.
If we were talking about Eli I could consider the possibility it has merit. Dude has been here 3 years. Mara does not give a shit about him.
What if the professionals want him? Well good for them and I hope they are right if they sign him and it isn't signing us up for above average as our peak as I think and am very much entitled to that opinion.
I don't think it's a good idea, and I don't think if Jones keeps playing like this that he will be kept without Mara influence.
And hold up a BIG second. You need a jump to conclusions mat. I'm simply saying projecting this QB play forward I wouldn't think any coaching staff would want to keep on a QB like this without other influences.
Let me alleviate you of your conspiracy theories, I'm perfectly fine being wrong about Jones, I'm perfectly fine with the idea that I might not like him but JS and DB do. I absolutely think the way Mara has talked about Jones and generally conducted himself is highly unprofessional and shitty so I lean towards having little to no faith in him and his influence.
Perhaps you'd like to point me to the part where I said my opinions were the gospel angry bear?
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try to meddle to get Jones' fifth year option picked up? If he did why was he not successful? If he did not, why will he meddle this coming off-season?
See I've explained this already on this thread but I'll do it again clearly.
Take a look at new coaching staffs / GMs with incumbent unsuccessful QBs more often than not they are traded. So Jones not being traded is more of a reflection of that influence than not.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that like most new regimes BD and JS would have preferred their own guy at QB but compromised on not picking up the option with the Mara clan to find middle ground. I don't consider it some kind of proof at all, not sure why people throw that around so much. I don't think Mara wants to steamroll his way over his GM anyway, I think much like the worry is this offseason there will be some grey area with ground to meet in the middle and it will continue to get DJ more of a chance than he deserves.
My questions were not meant to come off as me saying “I know Mara does not meddle”. They were legitimate questions. I also did not see that Sean had asked this prior in the thread.
Mara does not want to steamroll his GM, but Mara will name the starting qb? Mara wants to get his way behind the scenes, but publicly James Jones the starter? It is not the owner’s place to set the depth chart of a position, to me that is steamrolling and not working behind the scenes.
LOL! 10 years of abysmal football and a medium coke. And somehow you think Mara’s business acumen is a benefit here?
It would be best to stay out of Jones discussions but he did stand up for him (Jones) when JS was hired. I think his words were "There are a lot of people who believe in him in the building". Tough to say with certainty who those people are.
he needs to be a LOT better to warrant staying- right now its not even close--- has not shown to be the guy at all.
Have your cake and eat it too.
How many consistently good teams have ownership that gets it right virtually always and never seem to misstep or talk out of place:
Pittsburg
Kansas City
New England
Baltimore - because of Ozzie
Green Bay(?)
Not only was he not traded, he was publicly praised and handed the job before training camp by the owner. Also odd behavior that suggests he's more involved with the starting QB decision than he should be.
I have a hard time believing if the Giants have a playoff or close to playoff season that Mara is going to let Jones go. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that is the crux of the debate. And the Giants care a lot about fan sentiment and despite the fact that he is our QB this year, the discussion of his contributions is an important one.
The only hope is that Daboll is constructing an extensive reel of Jones not pulling the trigger on tight windows and reminding the owner that two of the four Lombardis in the case are there because #10 had no such hesitation, regardless of what was on the line. That might have been Eli’s greatest trait beyond his between-game preparation, and few outside the fan base seem to understand that.
If there was ever a time to employ the Ozzie Smith “We love you, but we have a plan in place, so go get the best deal you can get out there and come back with it and we’ll discuss options”. They simply cannot let fear of losing this player complicate the path forward, and I agree with those who feel the decision on the fifth year option is encouraging.
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The 2023 QB class is considered to be strong and any of them will be cheaper than Jones.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Not to mention that QB class is off to a weak start, with only Stroud and Young looking like pro QBs better than Jones
Managing up.
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The 2023 QB class is considered to be strong and any of them will be cheaper than Jones.
Cheaper in the short term, but you can't easily put a cost on wasting another 2-3 years if they don't work out.
Sticking with Jones is wasting another 2-3 years.
Managing up.
Thanks. All of the good GMs manage up, but when you have a good owner like Steve B, you can use the Ozzie technique most effectively.
I forgot to add that “discussing options” with DJ on an extension involves being quite up front about a rookie draft pick coming on board in ‘23.
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Winning is good. Pissing off your customers is bad.
LOL! 10 years of abysmal football and a medium coke. And somehow you think Mara’s business acumen is a benefit here?
When someone writes a book about the Giants from 2012-2021 I truly hope it's titled "10 years of bad football and a medium pepsi"
The only hope is that Daboll is constructing an extensive reel of Jones not pulling the trigger on tight windows and reminding the owner that two of the four Lombardis in the case are there because #10 had no such hesitation, regardless of what was on the line. That might have been Eli’s greatest trait beyond his between-game preparation, and few outside the fan base seem to understand that.
If there was ever a time to employ the Ozzie Smith “We love you, but we have a plan in place, so go get the best deal you can get out there and come back with it and we’ll discuss options”. They simply cannot let fear of losing this player complicate the path forward, and I agree with those who feel the decision on the fifth year option is encouraging.
What I've seen from Daboll so far is encouraging. He seems keenly aware of his QBs limitations and coaching around them.
There's no reason for me to believe at this point that Daboll (or Schoen) want to tie their success or failure to Daniel Jones as their QB.
Perhaps being in playoff contention will have an impact on Mara, but that's a team accomplishment and really not relevant in the evaluation of any particular player.
The most relevant example is Tyrod Taylor, who was the QB when the Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs in 2017. Buffalo traded Taylor and made the moves necessary to acquire the #7 overall pick, which was used on Josh Allen.
@DDuggan21
Have encountered some pushback on framing the Daniel Jones evaluation as franchise tag or bust. Really think people are overthinking this. If he doesn’t play well enough to demand the tag, why would anyone think the Giants would be interested in a ~$20M/year extension?
I agree. I want to see through game 8(well not really), but it is time to look elsewhere.
They do NOT believe in Daniel Jones.
FACT.
They told him to prove it.
Be objective, please.
Levis, Richardson, et al arent looking great out of the gate this year and dont look anywhere close to being better than Jones
Its not just about Jones, its about who can they find to replace him
Tyrod takes the job in his 2nd year here while NYG sees what their options are in 2023 draft
They most likely open up 2023 with TT and a rook. Very similar to where Pittsburgh is right now.
All that does is delay it for a year, then what? So they go 7-10 this year and next year and are still without a good QB?
Does anyone who has seen Levis, Richardson, et al think they will be better pros than Jones? So far they look like Trubiskys AT BEST. Van Dyke looked lousy vs A&M just as all the QBs not named Stroud/Young havent looked good vs decent teams so far
The Steelers took Pickett and are praying he is not a Trubisky. Good luck with that
The "get rid of Jones no matter what and figure it out later" plan isnt very enticing when you look at the QB landscape
Levis, Richardson, et al arent looking great out of the gate this year and dont look anywhere close to being better than Jones
Its not just about Jones, its about who can they find to replace him
No, it literally does not have to account for who replaces DJ.
The way the QB process works is, you take your shot on a rookie QB, you get 4-5 years to determine if you've found your franchise QB, and you stack your roster accordingly during that rookie contract window. And if he's a truly elite QB1, you start adjusting your roster from the QB's second contract on.
What you don't do is leave the car in neutral while you go shopping for a new one.
I think the philosophy of “we need to keep Jones and pay him $20M because there is no one better” is so backwards.
The Bears are better off with Fields and he’s a lot cheaper than Trubisky is (who Steeler fans already want benched.)
Where is the production that we will so badly miss with Jones that supposedly cannot be replaced? Jones through a killer red zone pick in the Tennessee game and had a dropped pick 6 in the Carolina game.
What seems to be their criteria:
1.) Strong arm
2.) very mobile
3.) tough physically and mentally
4.) confident
5.) Tall - over 6'3"
Some QBs probably do not meet all that - so what would be waiverable - probably height a little bit.
If you are weeding through the available QBs eligible for next years draft, I would start there, especially on the physical side.
2. Sign Gardner Minshew. He has a high TD to TO ratio, has a higher YPA than Jones. You get your mediocre QB who can probably do a better job as game manager than Jones.