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Wink vs. Bettcher and Graham

robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2022 10:55 pm
I was just thinking about this. Bettcher was known as an aggressive DC in Arizona. When he got here we suffered from injuries in the secondary, lack of talent, and had Baker. We seemed to primarly play zone and completely underperformed. Bettcher didn't last long.

Then we got Graham who came from Miami and blitzed a ton. I know I was excited to see an attacking style of defense. But that never happened. We said we didn't have the corners to play man. Then in Graham's second year we had Bradberry and Jackson. Now, we are all feeling great that we will be attacking more than Graham's first year. Again, what the fuck? We continued to play soft and not want to take that risk.

Now we look at Wink. He has RAVED about Jerome Henderson. Henderson has been here with Graham. We can see how some positional coaches can get lumped in with their coordinators. We couldn't have two different styles of defense. Yet, so far, we are getting way more production with less talent at the CB position. To me it comes down to one simple thing. That thing is what are your beliefs?

Wink believes in pressure and in order to do that you need to man up. That is a core principle to him and, because of that, it is a staple of his defense. He is gonna throw his CBs into the fire. They will either sink or swim. He isn't afraid to take risks. Playing man is easier, imo, than playing zone in the NFL. It doesn't always mean it'll work out because of mismatches but mentally it is much easier.

Now, let's go back to Bettcher and Graham. I don't want to hear they didn't have the horses to be aggressive and man up on the back end. They don't have the belief that Wink does. They didn't emphasize that mentality. Imo, they coached scared and tried to play it safe by protecting players. This is a far cry from what Daboll is preaching by showing trust in your players.

It is kind of coming full circle. Sometimes coaches outsmart themselves. It is such a relief to have a staff that is showing trust in these players and getting results even though it isn't always pretty. Kudos to Henderson for showing his worth with new leadership, Wink for bringing the attacking mentality back to our defense, and Daboll for showing trust in his coaches and players.
bettcher and graham were both first time coordinators  
Eric on Li : 9/20/2022 11:04 pm : link
who quite simply weren't as good as wink.

bettcher's defenses had more breakdowns than the year they tried to start cc brown. that unit was noncompetitive and that's why he's bounced around as an assistant not a coordinator since. i think his 2019 unit allowed more points than any nyg team in the SB era.

graham did a good job but his units always started slow when he tried to do anything other than sitting back in coverage. and obviously last year the 2 min drills were record breaking bad. his defenses were much better than bettchers but i think what we're seeing with wink now is an even bigger upgrade because he's combining the solid run D and sound coverages with a pressure element. and so far at least there hasn't been much of a learning curve, and he's been able to do it despite injuries/youth all over.
I feel like it's not only trust in his players but also trust in  
BestFeature : 9/20/2022 11:07 pm : link
himself that he'll scheme plays that wouldn't expose the players too much.
RE: bettcher and graham were both first time coordinators  
robbieballs2003 : 9/20/2022 11:09 pm : link
In comment 15825886 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
who quite simply weren't as good as wink.

bettcher's defenses had more breakdowns than the year they tried to start cc brown. that unit was noncompetitive and that's why he's bounced around as an assistant not a coordinator since. i think his 2019 unit allowed more points than any nyg team in the SB era.

graham did a good job but his units always started slow when he tried to do anything other than sitting back in coverage. and obviously last year the 2 min drills were record breaking bad. his defenses were much better than bettchers but i think what we're seeing with wink now is an even bigger upgrade because he's combining the solid run D and sound coverages with a pressure element. and so far at least there hasn't been much of a learning curve, and he's been able to do it despite injuries/youth all over.


Part of what I am getting at is when you know what you want then practicing man drills, techniques, assignments is an every day occurrence. As a defense, if you are primarily a zone team then a lot of time is going over communication, and working in conjunction with the safeties and LBs about zones, passing off receivers, etc. It leads to a lot more breakdowns. With Wink, he is gonna make sure his guys know how to man up. Every team plays both zone and man but it is what you emphasize in practice that becomes reality. And that starts with your beliefs. Bettcher and Graham coached scared to hide players in their defense. Wink is the opposite.
Bettcher and Graham were DC  
Mike in NY : 9/20/2022 11:09 pm : link
Before coming to the Giants. Bettcher actually did have 2 or 3 games in the middle of Baker’s rookie year where they employed more press man and the team improved dramatically. The problem was they ran into an overzealous officiating crew and that shell shocked Bettcher. He really was not the same after that.
RE: Bettcher and Graham were DC  
Eric on Li : 9/20/2022 11:16 pm : link
In comment 15825897 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
Before coming to the Giants. Bettcher actually did have 2 or 3 games in the middle of Baker’s rookie year where they employed more press man and the team improved dramatically. The problem was they ran into an overzealous officiating crew and that shell shocked Bettcher. He really was not the same after that.


you're right i phrased completely wrong. they had only been DCs briefly and hadn't really ever stepped out on their own. Bettcher inherited the bowles d in AZ and Graham was thought to be running Flores' d in Mia. I think there was even speculation Flores was calling the plays. Then Flores let him go for a basically lateral move. they were hired as bright young minds whereas wink is obviously older and more established.

i will say because of the bettcher experience (and tim lewis) i was worried about how much of winks success was thanks to the baltimore culture that was already established when he took over but that appears to have been unfounded.
I get where you are out  
Daniel in Kentucky : 9/20/2022 11:18 pm : link
Good post
RE: RE: bettcher and graham were both first time coordinators  
Eric on Li : 9/20/2022 11:20 pm : link
In comment 15825895 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Bettcher and Graham coached scared to hide players in their defense. Wink is the opposite.


I agree with this - but his coverages have still been very sound despite not always having ideal talent. he's even gotten guys like calitro and flott in decent coverage at times when the matchups they had should have been big mismatches. same with his run defense.

he's known for his pressures but the stat eric has been pointing out for the last few months that last year even with all the injuries he had that baltimore 1st in stopping the run seems to indicate that he simply has a formula that really works. stuff the run, play sound coverages that can be beat 1 on 1 but don't break down, and try to win the play with pressure before the ball gets to the secondary.

i wink is confident in his formula whereas the prior 2 DCs were doing a lot of trial and error.
I mean, just look at Julian Love  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/21/2022 12:33 am : link
...we all saw that he was one of the best players on defense, and was smart as hell too. Yet Graham used him as a utility player, and kept the corpse of Logan Ryan as a stater instead.

That's the difference with Wink, and the whole staff really. Players that produce are gonna play.
Totally forgot Betcher was ever our DC  
bradshaw44 : 9/21/2022 1:03 am : link
Such a coaching carousel the last 7–8 years. years I literally have forgotten some of the coaches. Which I never would have from 1992 to 2016. I remember Bill Sheridan more than any of the recent guys.

The funny thing about Sheridan was, we likened him to Ray H——-y but the guy was DC for an 8-8 team and we were so spoiled by TC KG that we cast him into the dust bin of history.

And yet we broke our backs making excuses for the likes of Betcher and Graham. Spags round two got a pass for all his other success with the team and rightfully so. As he’s gone on to have a great career as a DC with KC. Guy has 2 rings with different teams and 4 championship appearances in two different conferences.
This team is 0-2 if Bettcher or Graham are DC  
eric2425ny : 9/21/2022 1:52 am : link
Wink is the best acquisition this team made this offseason, hands down.
RE: Totally forgot Betcher was ever our DC  
Mike in NY : 9/21/2022 5:39 am : link
In comment 15825937 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Such a coaching carousel the last 7–8 years. years I literally have forgotten some of the coaches. Which I never would have from 1992 to 2016. I remember Bill Sheridan more than any of the recent guys.

The funny thing about Sheridan was, we likened him to Ray H——-y but the guy was DC for an 8-8 team and we were so spoiled by TC KG that we cast him into the dust bin of history.

And yet we broke our backs making excuses for the likes of Betcher and Graham. Spags round two got a pass for all his other success with the team and rightfully so. As he’s gone on to have a great career as a DC with KC. Guy has 2 rings with different teams and 4 championship appearances in two different conferences.


Spagnuolo’s D I always thought was a bit overrated here because of Super Bowl win. It works great if everyone can stay healthy, especially at DB, but it has sucked royally when they were constantly shifting guys in the defensive backfield. It makes me wonder if the coverage schemes are to a defense what option routes are to an offense where players are reacting to what others (including teammates) are doing. If everyone is not reading it the same way you get a lot of busted coverages.
RE: RE: Totally forgot Betcher was ever our DC  
robbieballs2003 : 9/21/2022 6:43 am : link
In comment 15825949 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15825937 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


Such a coaching carousel the last 7–8 years. years I literally have forgotten some of the coaches. Which I never would have from 1992 to 2016. I remember Bill Sheridan more than any of the recent guys.

The funny thing about Sheridan was, we likened him to Ray H——-y but the guy was DC for an 8-8 team and we were so spoiled by TC KG that we cast him into the dust bin of history.

And yet we broke our backs making excuses for the likes of Betcher and Graham. Spags round two got a pass for all his other success with the team and rightfully so. As he’s gone on to have a great career as a DC with KC. Guy has 2 rings with different teams and 4 championship appearances in two different conferences.



Spagnuolo’s D I always thought was a bit overrated here because of Super Bowl win. It works great if everyone can stay healthy, especially at DB, but it has sucked royally when they were constantly shifting guys in the defensive backfield. It makes me wonder if the coverage schemes are to a defense what option routes are to an offense where players are reacting to what others (including teammates) are doing. If everyone is not reading it the same way you get a lot of busted coverages.


That's one way of looking at it. Playing zone is all about communicating and trust in your teammates. Let's use a simple cover 2. There are different ways to play it but if you are a corner you pass off the WR to the safety. Ideally if this is how it is being run, the corner pushes the number 1 (WR in relation to the sideline) in to the middle of the field. He is to ride the receiver as long as he can before coming off on a receiver in front of him. If nobody shows, then he continues to ride him deep. If the receive runs an in route then he has to relay that to the linebackers. The linebackers have a tough job because receivers can be coming from both directions so having a corner communicatie "IN, IN IN" will help out those underneath guys. The entire secondary has to work as one. Communication is critical. Bettcher never had it. Graham did but they played soft the whole time and that is what he got out of his defense. In contrast, look at the Bills. They play primarily zone but they attack in that zone. It is a mentality. Wink has preached communication many times. While we are not in practices to fully know, the results in the games have yielded 0 miscommunications in coverage to my eyes.
I have followed Wink  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/21/2022 7:16 am : link
through camp. He breaks things down easily to understand in his pressers. His loves his corners but to me his priority is having a physical front 7 that makes teams one dimensional. He is close but needs better ILB's to make it work. Get teams in unfavorable down/distance where his schemes get pressure backed by a secondary that can hold for enough time to close on the QB. He also seems outstanding at using players in roles if he does not have all his pieces yet to get by.

Bettcher seemed like he couldn't adjust unless he had perfect conditions in terms of players. Graham was okay but he played a little to much bend but I suspect this was partly guided by Judge. That end of half and two minutes was mind boggling.
Wasn't Bradberry here in Graham's first year  
Angel Eyes : 9/21/2022 7:58 am : link
?
RE: Wasn't Bradberry here in Graham's first year  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/21/2022 8:01 am : link
In comment 15825990 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
?


Yes I believe so.
The coaching philosophy of this team has shifted in a big way.  
an_idol_mind : 9/21/2022 8:28 am : link
For years, the coaches have known that this team lacks talent and have been extremely conservative as a result. This coaching staff seems to put more trust in the players despite the lack of talent.

The results this season will probably be about the same: another double digit loss season. But hopefully it will mean that, as the team's talent grows, the coaches won't have to reinvent their strategies and the wins will start coming.
Good post  
mfsd : 9/21/2022 8:31 am : link
I think the difference in Adoree’s play this year is exhibit A. He’s always been a good ball player, but was so-so last season

In Wink’s defense he’s been one of the best players on the field for 2 straight weeks now
I have never seen  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2022 8:40 am : link
a defensive coordinator with 2 high priced corners play so much soft zone coverage in my life..How do you have 2 lock down corners and have them play 10 yards off the receiver. It was absolutely ridiculous and henwould never adjust, even if the giants were up 1 or 2 and couodnt give up a field goal, it was prevent..

As for Bettcher i remember him being good for a few games and then would go back to conservative and the defense would suffer..

I think a lot to do with their failures was the head coach coaching not to lose. You are starting to see there was some talent on this team that wasnt utilized properly..
RE: This team is 0-2 if Bettcher or Graham are DC  
Dr. D : 9/21/2022 8:43 am : link
In comment 15825941 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Wink is the best acquisition this team made this offseason, hands down.

I agree they would be 0-2 with the other DCs. I was very happy when we hired him. I'm so sick of passive defenses (don't understand why we have to keep cycling through that type of D. Does it work somewhere?).

But they'd also be 0-2 if Judge or Shurmur were HC. Daboll, Wink (and Schoen) so far appear to be great acquisitions. Finally!
RE: The coaching philosophy of this team has shifted in a big way.  
Dr. D : 9/21/2022 8:54 am : link
In comment 15826001 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
For years, the coaches have known that this team lacks talent and have been extremely conservative as a result. This coaching staff seems to put more trust in the players despite the lack of talent.

The results this season will probably be about the same: another double digit loss season. But hopefully it will mean that, as the team's talent grows, the coaches won't have to reinvent their strategies and the wins will start coming.

Why will we probably have another double digit loss season? I know we're not going to the SB, but we're 2-0 when many thought we would be 0-2. Our defense is keeping us in games and our O is doing enough to win, while hopefully continuing to improve with a very young OL, TE, healthy Barkley, a reasonable schedule, etc.

No way am I expecting a double digit loss season.
Exactly right on Graham last year.  
section125 : 9/21/2022 9:16 am : link
Two lockdown corners and playing 10 yards off the ball especially on 3rd and 3...

What Winks does extremely well is design blitzes that are hard to read. That set up Sunday with 7 or 8 at the line and then 3 or four drop back was brilliant. Forces the QB to set up protection and then causes momentary confusion in assignments at the snap. They had free rushers several times and missed 3 or 4 sacks they had clean shots at.

It is going to be brilliant when Azeez and KT get on the field.
Different head coaches have caused some of the defense struggles  
Rudy5757 : 9/21/2022 9:17 am : link
I believe that the last 2 years the Giants were playing not to lose. We played very soft uninspired defense but for the most part we kept the O in front of us causing long drawn out offensive drives. Teams were taking what we easily gave and marched up and down on us. The plan seemed to be to chew the clock, keep the score low so we had a chance. We had a stretch of 6 games last year where in 5 of them we gave up less than 20 points. It seemed to be by design after some early season beatings. Then DJ got hurt and wheels completely came off.

The point is I think its also the head coach that directs the D. Daboll wants to be an aggressive team on O and D and Judge wanted to keep it close at all costs. Id much rather have my team play aggressive than play to not lose. You dictate the action. I feel like last year teams didnt really have to gameplan for the Giants, they knew we were playing soft.
graham was learning on the job and using trial/error  
Eric on Li : 9/21/2022 10:19 am : link
the problem was almost everything he deployed other than soft zones was met with error. his defense was a one trick pony but on occasion players like carr, wentz, and darnold made mistakes and the giants won games. heck if ximines didnt jump offsides they had a pick on mahomes and his name may be on that list too.

in his first month or two in 2020 the D got shredded when he tried to play man. In the 2nd half of that year they started playing off and stopped blitzing and that's when the defense improved.

like everything in judge year 2 the adjustments they made to "fix" the defense via personnel turned out to be useless because the scheme/tactics were flawed. A strong 2nd CB was supposed to enable Graham to play more aggressively the same way a big WR was supposed to fix Garrett's offense. but players can't fix broken schemes. wink is so far showing the inverse is true - good schemes can help hide talent gaps.
RE: Good post  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/21/2022 10:30 am : link
In comment 15826002 mfsd said:
Quote:
I think the difference in Adoree’s play this year is exhibit A. He’s always been a good ball player, but was so-so last season

In Wink’s defense he’s been one of the best players on the field for 2 straight weeks now


This is very true, Jackson has been great these past two games.
....  
Spartan10 : 9/21/2022 11:11 am : link
Good post, but lets just keep in mind the QBs we have beaten so far- Baker Mayfield and Ryan Tannehill. Some analysts I follow who are critical of Daniel Jones say that Jones is better than Mayfield. Mayfield may get a lot of name recognition, but don't think he is that accurate.

I like Wink, but let's see how the defense holds up against better QB play. I think that will be the real test and I think better QBs will probably expose our lack of depth at CB.
RE: ....  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2022 11:13 am : link
In comment 15826238 Spartan10 said:
Quote:
Good post, but lets just keep in mind the QBs we have beaten so far- Baker Mayfield and Ryan Tannehill. Some analysts I follow who are critical of Daniel Jones say that Jones is better than Mayfield. Mayfield may get a lot of name recognition, but don't think he is that accurate.

I like Wink, but let's see how the defense holds up against better QB play. I think that will be the real test and I think better QBs will probably expose our lack of depth at CB.


Sure but you can also say he shut down the other teams best plahyer without sacrificing the other parts of the game..

He shut down Henry not just by stackong the box, but with exptic looks that also didnt let tannehill beat the giants..

He shut down Mccaffrey except for 1 run and he did nothing in the pass game, all while not allowing Mayfield really do anything
nygiants16  
Spartan10 : 9/21/2022 11:22 am : link
I like Wink...I'm not trying to knock him. I expect our defense to play well against mediocre QBs which is what we have done so far. I'm just trying to be realistic. It took a missed field goal for us to beat Tennessee and we beat a McAdoo and Baker Mayfield lead offense be 3 points.

I'm just saying before we get too carried away lets see how we do against better QBs and offenses. My guess is better QBs and coordinators will expose some of the holes in our roster. Hopefully I'm wrong.
RE: nygiants16  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2022 11:59 am : link
In comment 15826263 Spartan10 said:
Quote:
I like Wink...I'm not trying to knock him. I expect our defense to play well against mediocre QBs which is what we have done so far. I'm just trying to be realistic. It took a missed field goal for us to beat Tennessee and we beat a McAdoo and Baker Mayfield lead offense be 3 points.

I'm just saying before we get too carried away lets see how we do against better QBs and offenses. My guess is better QBs and coordinators will expose some of the holes in our roster. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Yeah but thats not on the defense, they did their job the past 2 games..

Its on the offense now to catchup, they should of beat the panthers going away but the offense sralled the entire first half
I always said Betcher was too hung up  
Bubba : 9/21/2022 1:08 pm : link
on his scheme regardless as to the players he had trying to execute it. Wink on the other hand seems to utilize the strengths of his players and scheme's accordingly.
its early, but  
upnyg : 9/21/2022 9:00 pm : link
Wink looks like a great hire. Wonder how he would have done as HC?
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