while he is a hot commodity.
This 900-word opinion piece went in a different direction than I was expecting since it morphs into a full-blown discussion about Daniel Jones. And I'm not sure I can do justice in conveying the essence of the argument, but here are a few tidbits:
(1) Giants could well be in the hunt for a play-off spot this season;
(2) Rather than be sellers, Joe Schoen should be in the market looking to upgrade his WR unit ASAP;
(3) Daniel Jones is completing over 70% of his passes; he's in the Top 10 for passer efficiency; he is 12-12 in last 24 starts; and the Giants will probably finish around .500 this season, which will give them about the 15th pick in the Draft;
(4) In other words, Giants are not going to find the next great QB at 15, and it is better to build around the pieces the Giants currently have -- including Saquon Barkley -- rather than trade away a ton of Draft capital to move way up to find a top QB.
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The call to trade Saquon Barkley (and/or cut ties with Daniel Jones after this season) has made its rounds on BBI. While I understand the logic, I believe BBIers are wrong insofar as they have fallen into a trap of "all or nothing" thinking.
In other words, BBIers are implicitly arguing: What's the use of building a roster if it can't ultimately bring home a Super Bowl trophy? But I don't fully buy into that perspective. The Giants have given us a decade of miserable football. In contrast, the Steelers, for example, had several strong play-off seasons, but fell short of winning the Super Bowl. I would have been very proud (and thoroughly enjoyed Giants football) had Big Blue delivered a "Steelers-like" performance over the past decade.
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And they were right to do so. Barkley is a different player at a different stage of his career. It’s not an easy decision
Hell....I cursed the Giants to 10 years of lousy football to win the last one (didn't except it to happen 😁).
I have several Cowboy fans with grown kids never experiencing a championship. Both my kids have been to the canyon of heros and celebrated Super Bowls in person.....
Sorry....no way. New England is only team that I would swap places.....
But you really need a better than average quarterback.
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
As far as DJ goes, I am practically a fanboy and am one of the few people who thought we should have picked up his option year. But the Jones take seems off. It is hard to have watched him play and then talk about top 10 efficiency. He had a solid first game with one giant bonehead play and a mediocre at best second game. As always with QBs, stats are virtually meaningless if you don't watch the game. Hard to see him as being better than 15-20 in QB rankings long term. As far as trading him, there will be zero market. I am not sure I would take a six month rental on Patrick Mahomes. It just takes too long to have a QB acclimate. And while the ability to franchise Mahomes means something, don't think that has value for DJ.
With both SB and DJ the long term is likely to be based on what kind or contract we have to give them. I doubt SB will be worth it, as RBs almost never are. DJ ain't going to be worth a QB max contract, but I could see him worth a 2 to 3 year midrange deal.
By the way a shoutout to Colin who always does great work and has forgotten more about football than I know.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
I'd rather win the next game then worry about next year.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
So could Goff, yet LAR still got rid of him. Jones is a poor man's Goff, hopefully NYG doesn't make the same mistake LAR did.
I don't think the team needs to tank a season to get their quarterback, especially not when the "can't miss" prospects have such mixed results.
You've got the Joe Burrows, Justin Heberts, and Josh Allens of the world who are top 10 picks that panned out. But there are also plenty of Sam Darnolds, Baker Mayfields, and Jamarcus Russells out there...or the Alex Smiths who are good enough to start but not great enough to be franchise players.
Then you've got the guys like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson who lasted until near the end of the first round, or the Russell Wilsons of the world who made it into the mid-rounds.
We're not so far removed from people lamenting that we lost the "Chase Young Bowl" against Washington. Or from Washington trading the world to get Robert Griffin, who gave them one good season.
The Giants need to be within trading distance of a quarterback they have a strong conviction in. Then they need to trust that they have their evaluation right and that their coaches can get the most out of that player. History has proven over and over again that it's far more than just getting a high draft pick.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
There are no more great teams.
It's a QB driven league.
If you check out the GBN attached opinion, they have a direct answer to your POV.
If a new contract is looking like a roadblock, then perhaps it changes the decision calculus. But, I think SB will remain a Giant even after this season.
Health is the only concern with him.
But lets just say, you give him a 2nd contract at 15m/yr. Say he only earns 50% of it because of injury. 4yr contract for easy math.
Year 1 15mil
Year 2 15mil
Year 3 15mil
Year 4 15mil
Say he doesn't earn Year 3 and 4 so in reality you pay him
Year 1 30mil
Year 2 30mil
Year 3 0mil
Year 4 0mil
If year 1 and 2 his contribution to the team winning is on par with what say Davante Adams brings to his team. Aren't we happy?!
It's all about guaranteed money anyways.
Davante Adams = 65m guaranteed
Christian McCaffrey = 38m guaranteed
Again about 1/2 the cost.
Why not just sit back and enjoy watching a playmaker make plays while he can. And stop worry about paying the man 50cents/$1 in the future.
One other point.
Barkley has averaged ~8m/year so far in his career.
McCaffrey 16m/yr 2nd contract is really 13m/yr for 3yrs. With a bunch of option years after that.
(Potential Out: 2023, 3 yr, $39,174,774; $18,352,250 dead) Spotrac
You're going to get rid of a playmaker, over 5m/yr??? Jeez, OK.
He has to prove he can stay healthy if he wants to get a McCaffrey contract. Still lots TBD before you have to evaluate the risk, draw on history, but every case is unique. But I believe this discussion was based on the hypothetical that he would continue what he has done the 1st 2 weeks and stay healthy.
His last 24 starts.
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
Giants are standing on the very same precipice as the Vikings, and Cousins is a superior QB to Jones. We are this close to making the wrong step into QB Hell, make no mistake about it.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
These are short term deals for Cousins so they are choosing to keep re-upping him. That's not QB hell, they could have moved on from him and chose not to and gave him more money instead. Poor decision? Sure, but they weren't locked into playing him long term. I understand the strategy, it just hasn't worked out for them.
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QB hell is like the Viking....paying a middle of the road QB like a stud QB.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
There are no more great teams.
It's a QB driven league.
I'm not sure I totally buy into this. Throw Josh Allen behind the Giants O-line of the past several years, and then stir in the Giants WR unit... and what have you got? Surely not the same Josh Allen everyone is drooling over today.
The Bills had more player assets to trade than the Giants do, however I won't think we'll be picking as low as 21st.
Rather than stand pat with Jones and build around him, I'd expect Schoen to make a few "bold moves" to get their guy this offseason if they think there is one that is worth the risk.
I don't think the team needs to tank a season to get their quarterback, especially not when the "can't miss" prospects have such mixed results.
You've got the Joe Burrows, Justin Heberts, and Josh Allens of the world who are top 10 picks that panned out. But there are also plenty of Sam Darnolds, Baker Mayfields, and Jamarcus Russells out there...or the Alex Smiths who are good enough to start but not great enough to be franchise players.
Then you've got the guys like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson who lasted until near the end of the first round, or the Russell Wilsons of the world who made it into the mid-rounds.
We're not so far removed from people lamenting that we lost the "Chase Young Bowl" against Washington. Or from Washington trading the world to get Robert Griffin, who gave them one good season.
The Giants need to be within trading distance of a quarterback they have a strong conviction in. Then they need to trust that they have their evaluation right and that their coaches can get the most out of that player. History has proven over and over again that it's far more than just getting a high draft pick.
I am very much in agreement with your thinking here!
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
What evidence is there that Jones can win? There is none.
The Giants aren't winning a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones. I don't know why that is hard for some to comprehend. People seem to have a weird sentimental attachment to the guy. He isn't playing the same game as the Herberts, Mahomes, Jacksons. And paying a RB big money, especially one with a checkered history of lower body injuries, would be incredibly stupid.
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
His last 24 starts.
I get that Angel, sorry for the confusion. It just seems like there was so much losing 12-12 seems wrong
So he was 2-14 for n his first 16 starts?
Wish I was better at researching this stuff. If true 12-12 with that roster is not a bad stat
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Biggest thing is that we are almost certainly going to look to upgrade from Jones and even if we pick 15th we can achieve that. We also can trade up if the opportunity presents itself. We can also trade for a QB, or sign a stopgap in FA. There are a bunch of options.
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
So does he keep getting mulligans until its deemed that his Ol and WR are good enough? At some point is it on the 6th pick to elevate the other players on offense?
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Not buying. Look deeper into how he plays drive to drive
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
I have no idea how this is going to play out, but I don't understand why what you wrote, M.S., is so hard to understand.
Jones has been a clear contributor to the offensive woes of the team. And he isn’t showing anything this year that he is breaking out of that shell…
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In comment 15827185 Jimmy Googs said:
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Not buying. Look deeper into how he plays drive to drive
You're not "buying" because you are biased against Daniel Jones who is by no means a top echelon QB. But he is better than your perception of him. A lot better.
Draft a good enough one and build a team. You know what big money QB teams hate come playoff time. Physical teams. Outstanding fronts. Offenses that are balanced. Great HC's.
JS will make a bold move if he is within striking distance for a QB he likes. I am also hoping he has reconsidered his team building approach since being in the Giants building. The blue print is all around him. It is all around the NFCE.
Or you can hope for this "magic" QB and try modernizing your way to a championship. Hopefully in your path you don't wind up facing the type of team I mentioned. It most often does not go well come playoff time.
I see the players around him too and still stand firm in that assessment without bias
What piece am I missing?
QB hell is when we are way overpaying for a QB's performance and it hamstrings the rest of our spending so the team never becomes a legitimate Super Bowl threat. Cousins is the perfect example, and a number of others (and I would include Dak in this).
This is exactly why Daboll/Schoen brought in Tyrod. They can win with him and he is cheap
I am not concerned about QB for next year as we are in this year. Most here discount FA and possible trades etc in the off season.
Look at it this way:
1) Brady will be done in TB. Are they going all in with Trask? I doubt it.
2) Rogers in GB is always in flux and he seems like a pretty flakey dude. He could want out, he could retire. If he stays, GB will shop Love and free them up before his contract comes due.
3) Ravens will be trying to get Jackson signed, possible franchise tag but I doubt exclusive tag though. They will let another team set the market price and then decide to match or let him go and take the kings ransom in picks. (BTW- Huntley their backup is also a FA in 2023).
4) 49ers and Jimmy G will part ways this offseason.
5) The Phins have two QB's who have been starters in the league and Thompson a rookie showed out in the pre-season. The Phins could showcase him in the spring and summer to deal him for added picks if Tua is the guy.
The point I am making is that there will be movement all over the league in the off season QB wise. Teh Giants have done the best thing they could have done and that is getting a start on setting their Oline up as a solid unit. It has had some growing pains right now but we have solid foundational pieces at both T's and a young G who should develop.
Let's let this season play out more.
As far as Jones is concerned, his performance has definitely been hampered by a poor OL and supporting cast, but he has consistently not seen the entire field on many plays. The Giants not picking up his fifth year option means it's very unlikely he'll return IMO unless he leads the team deep into the playoffs and is not the reason we fall short. That doesn't seem likely. Jones right now looks like a classic game manager.
Barkley won't be traded. He's the entire offense. He also has little trade value IMO. He's had a major knee injury, will be a FA after this season, and the RB position has been devalued. As far has him returning after this season, he's certainly increasing his chances, but it will depend on the money, and again, what happens the rest of the season.
"And that is going to have them drafting pretty close to the middle of the opening round and good luck trying to find the next great QB drafting 15th. I suppose it happens, but like once every couple of decades. I personally just don’t see any way short of trading away your next 2-3 drafts to move up to get one of the top guys even if that’s possible."
"In the end, it may very well end up that Jones IS the Giants guy for the next 2-3 years. If he ultimately only is a game-manager then you have him manage the game because right now I don’t see a whole lot of options to replace him with anybody with really good odds to be better."
"It’s also possible that if the Giants did decide they needed someone better at QB that they go the LA Rams route and look to trade for an established starter rather than throw the dice on a draftee who is going to take a couple of years to develop at which time most of your solid veterans like Williams and Jackson are likely to be gone and your core young guys like Ojulari, Lawrence, McKinney, and Thomas will all coming up on free agency and will be tough to resign. And you won’t have had the chance to replace many of them because you traded away all your picks to get the QB."
But what vet is out there like a Stafford?
How is trading Barkley going to help NYG land a QB?
I'm afraid to even ask that around here as it gives so many people the vapors.
That decision has not been made yet, nor should it have been made.
Patrick Mahomes - Drafted 10 overall, Chiefs gave up a future first and a 3rd to move up from 27
Josh Allen - Drafted 7 overall, Bills gave up (in multiple trades) 2 seconds, and their starting LT to move up from 21
Deshaun Watson - Drafted 12 overall, Browns gave up a future first to move up from 25 overall
Lamar Jackson - Drafted 32 overall, Ravens gave up a future second to move up from 52
All of these QB were drafted in a range that wouldn't be impossible to move up and get from 15. That doesn't even take into account that we may very well end up with a higher draft pick than 15. The Panthers started last year 3-0, and ended up with the 6 overall.
QBs are difference makers. If you get a true franchise QB, he more than makes up for any deficiencies in what you give up to get him.
I'm afraid to even ask that around here as it gives so many people the vapors.
It is less about that and determining what type of team DJ needs around him to accomplish the objective which is a championship. Then it is cost versus feasibility imv.
Those are less than stellar numbers. Maybe the rest of the roster isn’t as bad as it is made out to be.
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
QB's are not always found in the TOP 5 of the draft. Some of the better QB's are the ones that are the 2nd, 3rd or 4th option that year.
2017- Mahomes and Watson- two very good QB's and now 1 Superstar and 1 VERY good NFL QB's were taken 10th and 12th in the draft.
2018- Josh Allen was 8th (the 3rd QB taken) and jackson was the 32nd pick of the first rd.
More importantly though look at the # of high QB picks that have failed to live up to expectations and or flat out failed.
2010- Sam Bradford and Tim Tebow RD 1 Qb's- failed overall.
2011- Newton went #1, but Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder all went in the top half of RD 1.
2012- Luck and RgIII went 1 and 2 (RGIII due to injury never amounted to much) but after that Ryan Tannehill (a Jones comparison) and Brandon Weedon.
2013- EJ Manuel the only QB in RD1..
2014- Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel and Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy B is the only one even remotely successful.
2015- Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota went 1 and 2, but neither really lived up to the hype and expectation.
2016- Jared Goff and Carson Wentz went 1 and 2, then Paxton Lynch. Though Wentz and Goff went to the SB neither QB won the SB (Goff lost and Wentz was out) and both are on new teams with Wentz on his third team.
2017 and 2018 were covered above.
2019- saw Murray, Jones and Haskins. Jury out on Jones, Haskins flamed out in Washington, went to Pittsburgh as 3rd string and was killed this past offseason
2020- Now this group appears to be a stud group- Burrow, Tua and Herbert with Jordan Love getting an incomplete so far.
2021- Lawrence & Wilson went 1 and 2 (Lawrence started slower than expected and Wilson hasn't done much period), Trey Lance (49ers gave a ton for him and he sat most of last year, was given the reigns this year and loses game 1 and then is hurt lost for the season, Fields hasn't shown much yet and Mac Jones, who had the best rookie season results wise but will need help to be THE guy.
You have to be very careful that you don't just throw picks and the future away to get a position (QB) and really have to have the gut feeling on a specific player.
I would say game manager might not be bad if we sign on for a year or less if we do not have the ability to get OUR guy but we must avoid giving up a LOT just to get a POSITION!
Those are less than stellar numbers. Maybe the rest of the roster isn’t as bad as it is made out to be.
So maybe letting Evan Engram go was a mistake? Maybe drafting three oline this year including a high 1st wasn't the right thing to do, I suppose Jones should have left and Judge and Garrett should still be here and Golladay could have an all pro year.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
If anything should be taken from Wentz 2017 season it is the value in building a outstanding team that won with a backup QB. That team is probably one of the best arguments against the so called magical QB. Plenty of other examples of teams in the same mold.
Right now we're doing neither, George. Neither.
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
Remember in the mid-10s when the Giants really started to struggle and there was anxiety over not being able to beat the Eagles? The counter-argument was always "whatever, the Eagles may go to the playoffs but they never win the Superbowl." Then they won the Superbowl. You have to be in it to win it.
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In comment 15827169 M.S. said:
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
Yeah, Jones is making Sills, James, and Feliciano look worse
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In comment 15827169 M.S. said:
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
I get your point BUT, there is ZERO way Jones made that shit group look worse last year. WTF.. Billy fucking Price.. Nate Open Doors Solder..come on man.. You can't be that serious about using that group as an example of Jones making people look bad. You are digging deep into your hatred.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
There have been numerous clips posted of open receivers on all-22s with Jones having throwing windows. He's been supported well by the running game outside of the first half against Carolina.
This discussion is basically moot anyway because "if only he had a few more WRs" is not going to be the basis to hand over 31 million.
His catch rate is 30% higher right now, haha. I know its just 2 games but if he corrected that, which was a problem for him both with Eli and Jones, then good for him but I wish he did that here.
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
It really does seem to come off more about proving the haters wrong about Jones than having a coherent franchise vision (outside of what Line of Scrimmage has articulated), which sounds very similar to the vibe around Eli's last years, but Eli had past success to fall back on.
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
One of the flaws isn’t just surrounding him, it’s him.
And the coaching staff has already given a lot of thought to evaluating him. And their conclusion was to pass on the 5th year option. And I would be shocked if anybody on this site would suggest Jones’ performance in the first two games this year has made them regret that decision.
And not for nothing, somebody check that math on the 12-12 record if it’s going to be used as such a critical point in this comical debate…
He's come a long way since dropping our last chance at the playoffs. Get his seat in Canton ready
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
Great post, Lambuth, please save it because for reproduction.
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
He's come a long way since dropping our last chance at the playoffs. Get his seat in Canton ready
If all QBs miss guys wide open sometimes, don’t all WRs drop passes sometimes? Or is the “can’t be perfect all the time” only reserved for the easy to root for players?
I would not classify that as good, but to each their own I guess
Assuming teams would look at DJ as a possible stop gap QB, how do you rate DJ compared to those other options?
Do you think he is better than Tyrod Taylor?
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
Patrick Mahomes - Drafted 10 overall, Chiefs gave up a future first and a 3rd to move up from 27
Josh Allen - Drafted 7 overall, Bills gave up (in multiple trades) 2 seconds, and their starting LT to move up from 21
Deshaun Watson - Drafted 12 overall, Browns gave up a future first to move up from 25 overall
Lamar Jackson - Drafted 32 overall, Ravens gave up a future second to move up from 52
All of these QB were drafted in a range that wouldn't be impossible to move up and get from 15. That doesn't even take into account that we may very well end up with a higher draft pick than 15. The Panthers started last year 3-0, and ended up with the 6 overall.
QBs are difference makers. If you get a true franchise QB, he more than makes up for any deficiencies in what you give up to get him.
I don't get it either. I have faith that Schoen will do what he needs to do if there is a QB he wants next year.
I also don't get the bellyaching about us being in QB hell. Schoen isn't resigning Jones unless somehow he becomes a dramatically different QB, and even then I suspect he's already made up his mind about Jones and his limitations.
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In comment 15827185 Jimmy Googs said:
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
One of the flaws isn’t just surrounding him, it’s him.
And the coaching staff has already given a lot of thought to evaluating him. And their conclusion was to pass on the 5th year option. And I would be shocked if anybody on this site would suggest Jones’ performance in the first two games this year has made them regret that decision.
And not for nothing, somebody check that math on the 12-12 record if it’s going to be used as such a critical point in this comical debate…
We can't say for sure why the 5th year option wasn't exercised. Maybe they were worried about his injury and how well he would come back from it as he hadn't played a down of football since. Maybe they used it as motivation.
As far as this year goes he hasn't looked great BUT he has also lead game winning 4th qtr drives in both games. He has been sacked an average of 4 times a game which is way higher than what he's had on average through-out his career while producing his best TD to turnover ratio, a 6 point increase in completion percentage over his career average while maintaining his YPA average.
Is that enough proof, certainly not, but it also not enough proof to say he's gone either.
I didn't check the math, did you?
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
What's great about it? The 2000 team and then 2003 led to one of the great decisions made by Wellington. TC had the full backing of Welly and TC made sure a repeat of that 2000 SB would never happen again. The foundation of those teams was all rooted in winning the lines and the physical battle.
Don't misread that 2011 team. Look closely at the playoffs and that physical element was on display. Plenty.
2012-till today was about first destroying and then never rebuilding the important foundation of what wins championships. Don't be like the fool who wanted both TC/Eli gone in 2012/13.
Look at the root causes of why the last decade has been so poor. It' clear as day.
We need better QB play. We also need to restore the proper foundation. Hope that JS/BD understand both elements will lead to another Lombardi.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
I think it's not crazy to assume that if Gettleman had stuck to his initial interest in Herbert and waited until 2020 to draft him, the team wins the division in 2020, makes the playoffs in 2021 and Joe Judge is considered a great young coach lmao.
And it's not to say that the 20 or 21 Giants would've been great teams with Herbert, it's just that division was so weak that some improved QB play would've pushed the needle.
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In comment 15827260 Lambuth_Special said:
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
I think it's not crazy to assume that if Gettleman had stuck to his initial interest in Herbert and waited until 2020 to draft him, the team wins the division in 2020, makes the playoffs in 2021 and Joe Judge is considered a great young coach lmao.
And it's not to say that the 20 or 21 Giants would've been great teams with Herbert, it's just that division was so weak that some improved QB play would've pushed the needle.
Those were the two biggest blunders, third was passing over Parsons. No one expects decision perfection, but this amateur called them out in real time so someone at the Meadowlands should've been able to.
What's great about it? The 2000 team and then 2003 led to one of the great decisions made by Wellington. TC had the full backing of Welly and TC made sure a repeat of that 2000 SB would never happen again. The foundation of those teams was all rooted in winning the lines and the physical battle.
Don't misread that 2011 team. Look closely at the playoffs and that physical element was on display. Plenty.
2012-till today was about first destroying and then never rebuilding the important foundation of what wins championships. Don't be like the fool who wanted both TC/Eli gone in 2012/13.
Look at the root causes of why the last decade has been so poor. It' clear as day.
We need better QB play. We also need to restore the proper foundation. Hope that JS/BD understand both elements will lead to another Lombardi.
The 2000 team failed bad because they were high on their own supply after 41-0. In the post-game speeches, Collins and Wellington were practically acting like they had already won the SB. Toomer has eluded also to the lack of preparation in the lead up to the SB. This isn't even accounting for the fact that the Ravens were an all-time defensive time that were unlikely to be beaten by anybody.
In summary, I don't think the issue of the 2000 team was the trenches. That team ran and pass-protected well. They stopped the run and rushed the passer. They simply were naive, unprepared, and got the breaks beaten off by an incredible D.
You do have a point however that the 2003 was an abject lesson in failing to try and build an o-line from castoffs, 7th round picks and undrafted FAs.
EA also realized that although Collins was a good QB, getting to the next level required a great QB. That's what I appreciate about EA in retrospect. The man never rested on his laurels when it came to the position.
We need better QB play. We still need a lot more talent and depth.
Just have to hope JS/BD come up with the best solution. Sometimes the team carries the QB more than the other way around. Both have had success. The team oriented one is by far the more successful winner in the debate especially when one evalutates the QB at the time of those SB's.
The Colts are a lesson on this. Couldn't nail the QB, then Nelson and a couple of guys get injured and they are no longer the same team.
QB's are not always found in the TOP 5 of the draft. Some of the better QB's are the ones that are the 2nd, 3rd or 4th option that year.
2017- Mahomes and Watson- two very good QB's and now 1 Superstar and 1 VERY good NFL QB's were taken 10th and 12th in the draft.
2018- Josh Allen was 8th (the 3rd QB taken) and jackson was the 32nd pick of the first rd.
More importantly though look at the # of high QB picks that have failed to live up to expectations and or flat out failed.
2010- Sam Bradford and Tim Tebow RD 1 Qb's- failed overall.
2011- Newton went #1, but Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder all went in the top half of RD 1.
2012- Luck and RgIII went 1 and 2 (RGIII due to injury never amounted to much) but after that Ryan Tannehill (a Jones comparison) and Brandon Weedon.
2013- EJ Manuel the only QB in RD1..
2014- Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel and Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy B is the only one even remotely successful.
2015- Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota went 1 and 2, but neither really lived up to the hype and expectation.
2016- Jared Goff and Carson Wentz went 1 and 2, then Paxton Lynch. Though Wentz and Goff went to the SB neither QB won the SB (Goff lost and Wentz was out) and both are on new teams with Wentz on his third team.
2017 and 2018 were covered above.
2019- saw Murray, Jones and Haskins. Jury out on Jones, Haskins flamed out in Washington, went to Pittsburgh as 3rd string and was killed this past offseason
2020- Now this group appears to be a stud group- Burrow, Tua and Herbert with Jordan Love getting an incomplete so far.
2021- Lawrence & Wilson went 1 and 2 (Lawrence started slower than expected and Wilson hasn't done much period), Trey Lance (49ers gave a ton for him and he sat most of last year, was given the reigns this year and loses game 1 and then is hurt lost for the season, Fields hasn't shown much yet and Mac Jones, who had the best rookie season results wise but will need help to be THE guy.
You have to be very careful that you don't just throw picks and the future away to get a position (QB) and really have to have the gut feeling on a specific player.
I would say game manager might not be bad if we sign on for a year or less if we do not have the ability to get OUR guy but we must avoid giving up a LOT just to get a POSITION!
Then again, some of the successes have been spectacular- Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow etc.
Forget the "gut feeling." This is how we ended up with Jones. The evaluation must be properly and dispassionately made- what is the arm talent? does the player have tools to go off script if the need arises (especially these days where the o-lines have to come together during the season because practice time is so limited)? Does the player process info quickly and have the confidence to let fly?
Yes, there is no sure thing, but you have to acknowledge when mistakes were made and move on and not perpetuate the mistake with hopes and dreams. That requires taking a risk with the most important position on the offense.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
This and JVM's post above are pretty much spot on. You look at the history of teams drafting QB's and it is littered with failures. Ultimately, we do not know what is going to happen with Jones. So far I think it would be fair to say he is a serviceable QB. He needs to get more comfortable in this system and improve along with the parts around him.
If he improves and the Giants finish around .500...I think it is going to be hard for the Giants to move on for a 'chance' at something that could be better...or a disaster.
Get luck drafting mid first and grabbing one
Filing 5-6 major holes at cb, ILB, IOL and another top wr and TE to surround jones like rams did with Goff in 2018?
I still would consider a Goff or jimmy G over jonesif they were FA with no comp due if we went that route
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
I'd more discount it than bank on it, gun to head. You can try and make the argument that DJ isn't one of the better qbs in the league right now, but you'd lose. there aren't 16 QBs better than him. Again, you can make the argument, but you'd lose. Pretty sure coaches and pundits would put him in the top half.
As of this date, does DJ last past 16th qb picked in a fantasy football league? I doubt it.
People have this thing all warped with Jones. Starting snaps on your team are precious. You put some QBs under the big NFL lights and they rise to the occasion. They show exactly the opposite of what Jones has shown that maybe they were dinged for this or that reason but they get on the field and they seem to how to make plays. The Giants are doing literally the dumbest thing with their starting QB snaps, giving them to someone that has demonstrated zero aptitude for that and the overwhelming statistical evidence says you don't learn that.
Even if they miss on a rookie QB spending less money that you can use to bring in the supporting cast or bank for future years is of incredible value for ultimately building a contender. And maybe the most valuable part of drafting 1 or 2 QBs even outside of what you did with Jones where you over drafted him and gave him way to long of a look is that you can be quick with the hook. Everyone is always quick to point out that it's a big miss rate on QBs. Well do you know how to deal with that? Take a bunch of spins.
Because the jackpot is finding a QB that is good enough to win in the playoffs on a rookie deal. IMO the biggest problem with Jones is the willingness for so many, Mara especially to make excuses for him. Because the worst attitude to have is always, I need to get my QB, better receivers or OL or whatever the right attitude to have is does whatever team I have look better when we throw this guy behind center.
This Jones stat cherry picking by everyone is beyond odd. The numbers overwhelmingly say he's sub par and the eye test matches those numbers. Nobody is rushing to any conclusions on Jones in the modern era, someone that plays like he has tops out at Ryan Tannehill and how anyone could sign up for that CEILING for the life of me I can't understand.
I am not saying Foles sucks (well maybe lol), but he did those two things you mention above in offenses very new to the league:
-Chip Kelly offense
-RPO
Get luck drafting mid first and grabbing one
Filing 5-6 major holes at cb, ILB, IOL and another top wr and TE to surround jones like rams did with Goff in 2018?
I still would consider a Goff or jimmy G over jonesif they were FA with no comp due if we went that route
A lot of people don't want to hear it but Jimmy G - if you can get him at a reasonable rate - would be a perfect stopgap if there are no viable QB paths in the offseason and jones continues at his 24th best QB clip. In today's NFC, Jimmy is good for 10 wins and his advanced numbers have consistently put him as the 11th or 12th best QB in the league.
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Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the best QB you can find? If that includes trading Barkley, go for it.
How is trading Barkley going to help NYG land a QB?
Through the acquisition of additional draft capital, which could be used to move up in the draft, if need be. But even if it isn't used directly, the additional capital could be used to ease the pain of sacrificing the picks that actually were used.
You make extremist statements as if they are truism but if questioned you'll offer all sort of qualifications and assumptions that there isn't actually room for within the strict parameters of the statements you make.
That is to say, it's rather obvious why you wouldn't do everything possible to get the best available QB. It could ruin your franchise. There are a great many things that are possible to do to get a qb that either cost more than they are worth or cripple a franchises ability to field an effective, or possibly even competent team.
Beyond that, there is no guarantee the player even gives you your moneys worth. You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
But you really need a better than average quarterback.
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Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the best QB you can find? If that includes trading Barkley, go for it.
because any QB still has to be part of a team, and if you sacrificed everything to get the best qb available ( who my not even be a future hall of famer) and he has no line, or you have no receivers, it doesn't make a difference.
You make extremist statements as if they are truism but if questioned you'll offer all sort of qualifications and assumptions that there isn't actually room for within the strict parameters of the statements you make.
That is to say, it's rather obvious why you wouldn't do everything possible to get the best available QB. It could ruin your franchise. There are a great many things that are possible to do to get a qb that either cost more than they are worth or cripple a franchises ability to field an effective, or possibly even competent team.
Beyond that, there is no guarantee the player even gives you your moneys worth. You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
The NFL is ruthlessly competitive and risk-taking is a part of the business. Sure you can fail but it's better than pretending that a QB - by just about every measure - ranked 25th-26th best is actually above-average.
If you look at his stats so far, on the surface they seem fine, but he is 28th in yards, 24th in YPA, 28th in ePA, and the offense as a whole ranks 32nd in success rate. He has become this generation's Sam Bradford.
Remember in the mid-10s when the Giants really started to struggle and there was anxiety over not being able to beat the Eagles? The counter-argument was always "whatever, the Eagles may go to the playoffs but they never win the Superbowl." Then they won the Superbowl. You have to be in it to win it.
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Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the best QB you can find? If that includes trading Barkley, go for it.
because any QB still has to be part of a team, and if you sacrificed everything to get the best qb available ( who my not even be a future hall of famer) and he has no line, or you have no receivers, it doesn't make a difference.
You make extremist statements as if they are truism but if questioned you'll offer all sort of qualifications and assumptions that there isn't actually room for within the strict parameters of the statements you make.
That is to say, it's rather obvious why you wouldn't do everything possible to get the best available QB. It could ruin your franchise. There are a great many things that are possible to do to get a qb that either cost more than they are worth or cripple a franchises ability to field an effective, or possibly even competent team.
Beyond that, there is no guarantee the player even gives you your moneys worth. You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, therefore I can't imagine it's of any importance. However, I did get a chuckle out of your 'extremist statements" line and my alleged responses to them when challenged. I'm wondering if you have a red backdrop to go along with your red right hand? It wouldn't surprise me if you did. Seems fitting.
But the better the team gets the higher the opportunity cost to acquire a QB on his rookie deal.
With a QB on a rookie deal you can make the moves to improve the team around him. Gettleman tried, he was just terrible at it.
No, the goal is to win, period. Being able to compete with a QB still on a rookie deal is a huge benefit, as it frees up money to spend elsewhere, but that doesn't mean you dump a very good QB simply because his 2nd contract is coming up.
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
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In comment 15827250 dabru said:
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In comment 15827185 Jimmy Googs said:
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
One of the flaws isn’t just surrounding him, it’s him.
And the coaching staff has already given a lot of thought to evaluating him. And their conclusion was to pass on the 5th year option. And I would be shocked if anybody on this site would suggest Jones’ performance in the first two games this year has made them regret that decision.
And not for nothing, somebody check that math on the 12-12 record if it’s going to be used as such a critical point in this comical debate…
We can't say for sure why the 5th year option wasn't exercised. Maybe they were worried about his injury and how well he would come back from it as he hadn't played a down of football since. Maybe they used it as motivation.
As far as this year goes he hasn't looked great BUT he has also lead game winning 4th qtr drives in both games. He has been sacked an average of 4 times a game which is way higher than what he's had on average through-out his career while producing his best TD to turnover ratio, a 6 point increase in completion percentage over his career average while maintaining his YPA average.
Is that enough proof, certainly not, but it also not enough proof to say he's gone either.
I didn't check the math, did you?
The injury or motivation?...good lord. If you're going to guess please make it reasonably logical.
Put as many stats as you want up....he has not looked in the first 2 games. And kind of just looks like last year frankly expcept this year we made the GW FG and the other team missed.
And yes, I checked.
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With a qb on his rookie deal, a team should probably wait until they are a good qb away from competing so they don’t waste years on that rookie deal
But the better the team gets the higher the opportunity cost to acquire a QB on his rookie deal.
With a QB on a rookie deal you can make the moves to improve the team around him. Gettleman tried, he was just terrible at it.
ie you become the Colts continually trying scrambling to find a vet to fill the hole because you feel like you can't take the risk to get a rookie.
You don't ever wait, look in our own division. Wentz showed more than Jones but the Eagles were still looking for their next guy. Now they look like contenders. They also successfully traded backup QBs for draft capital for over market. There is no downside to getting a lot of spins at the most valuable position on the field. The stuck in the past Giants have treated a starting QB like it's a drawn out coronation. "This man will be our leader, we just have to get him to mind his p's and q's"
It's backwards. And as much as I like not picking up his 5th year option I would feel better about their trip towards the future if they had drafted a QB at some point in this past draft.
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
He’s 12th in yards for a tight end. Interesting how “has been good” has different meanings for players we like and don’t like. He’s third in receiving and accounts for 15% of their receiving yards.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
Nobody said it was easy, but you make it seem like there is zero chance and no options available that could be better.
Yet, teams draft and change out QBs all the time.
Are you that scared of putting our playoff record over the last decade at risk?
You don't ever wait, look in our own division. Wentz showed more than Jones but the Eagles were still looking for their next guy. Now they look like contenders. They also successfully traded backup QBs for draft capital for over market. There is no downside to getting a lot of spins at the most valuable position on the field. The stuck in the past Giants have treated a starting QB like it's a drawn out coronation. "This man will be our leader, we just have to get him to mind his p's and q's"
It's backwards. And as much as I like not picking up his 5th year option I would feel better about their trip towards the future if they had drafted a QB at some point in this past draft.
The Giants situation can be looked at a lot like the Falcons. They knew Ryan wasn’t the answer anymore, drafted a rookie in the third, signed a capable stop gap. They’ll know by the end of the year if they like Ridder enough to grab a AB this year.
Fucked for years?
The Chargers drafted Leaf in 1998. He busted out, they moved on two years later (after the 2000 season). A year later they drafted Drew Brees. And then when he suffered a serious injury, they drafted Eli Manning, who netted them Philip Rivers.
The Chargers are actually a great example of how to handle a highly drafted QB bust. They didn't just keep giving Leaf more time in the hopes that his brain would catch up with his physical talent. They moved on, and the next guy they picked became one of the most prolific QBs in NFL history, as did the one who replaced him, and the one who replaced the last one looks like he's on his way to joining the previous two in that elite tier.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
Exactly. Pick the wrong QB and you waste 4 more years. Then look at next year's draft and see all the QBs below Stroud and Young not looking so hot thus far
For every Mahomes and Allen there are 20 QBs who fail. Such as Baker and Darnold, who were picked 1 and 3 when Allen went 7th
An alternative path to a ring has emerged which is “build a great team with pissy QB play and then lure that great vet QB to your team… and then win it all.”
Tampa, the Rams and arguably the Broncos in 2015 used that model. The Broncos are using this approach this season, although they seem to have hired the wrong head coach.
That’s a path Schoen may choose to take.
That isn’t sound logic.
An alternative path to a ring has emerged which is “build a great team with pissy QB play and then lure that great vet QB to your team… and then win it all.”
Tampa, the Rams and arguably the Broncos in 2015 used that model. The Broncos are using this approach this season, although they seem to have hired the wrong head coach.
That’s a path Schoen may choose to take.
You can't underestimate the draw of NY on this one too. You form a good team and suddenly a QB might shake loose that wants to go to it and win in NY. I think given the hit that the organization has taken in terms of the overall view of ownership might hamper that but JS and DB could bring it back especially if they are fielding a good team.
That isn’t sound logic.
It appears the better approach was wasting 4 years to finally say we got it wrong...
Exactly. Pick the wrong QB and you waste 4 more years. Then look at next year's draft and see all the QBs below Stroud and Young not looking so hot thus far
For every Mahomes and Allen there are 20 QBs who fail. Such as Baker and Darnold, who were picked 1 and 3 when Allen went 7th
You only waste 4 years if you refuse to recognize that your initial decision was a mistake. AZ realized it made a mistake with Rosen, and jettisoned him a year later for Murray. Your argument seems to be "finding a good QB is hard, so we just shouldn't try".
Guys like Jones, Trubisky, Mayfield, Mariota get dumped because they are backup QBs. You need to do better. You can't win with them.
And the good thing is that there is no downside to losing them. Replacing a backup caliber QB is not hard.
Unless we have a Mara induced disaster, you'll see it with Jones too. He'll sign a modest contract to be a backup or a placeholder.
Exactly. Pick the wrong QB and you waste 4 more years. Then look at next year's draft and see all the QBs below Stroud and Young not looking so hot thus far
For every Mahomes and Allen there are 20 QBs who fail. Such as Baker and Darnold, who were picked 1 and 3 when Allen went 7th
Maybe Schoen will try real hard and, you know, not fail...
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
Perfectly said Kelly.
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You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
Fucked for years?
The Chargers drafted Leaf in 1998. He busted out, they moved on two years later (after the 2000 season). A year later they drafted Drew Brees. And then when he suffered a serious injury, they drafted Eli Manning, who netted them Philip Rivers.
The Chargers are actually a great example of how to handle a highly drafted QB bust. They didn't just keep giving Leaf more time in the hopes that his brain would catch up with his physical talent. They moved on, and the next guy they picked became one of the most prolific QBs in NFL history, as did the one who replaced him, and the one who replaced the last one looks like he's on his way to joining the previous two in that elite tier.
The problem is with this line of thinking is it neglects the other as important factor in this equation. The HC. Now Marty Shotts never got his SB but he was a outstanding HC who understood the values and principles of competitive teams. Those Charger teams were much more than the QB. They were balanced and physical. Outstanding OL and D. Big play outside threats. Your QB can change the equation how good the other elements need to be but foundational pieces are still needed. Marty understood this. Its why he always won. Everywhere. Three different franchises and thankfully Snyder canned him in Washington. He was taking that team on a similar trajectory.
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Do they justify the cost?
We don’t know yet if the crop of college QBs is better than Jones outside of Stroud and Young. Not every team has even played a conference game yet.
Maybe they’ll be another kid who was really good in high school, mediocre in college, but wins Senior Bowl MVP and we can trade up to 6 for him!
What if Richardsons struggles are the system and because he’s playing hurt? Cirsotbal doesn’t do his QBs any favors, maybe Van Dykes struggles against A&M are for the same reason Herbert didn’t look elite under Cristobal his final year.
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
I just think this is an antiquated way of thinking. What teams just sit on their hands and hope they are “bad enough” to draft a QB?
-Mahomes: KC traded up and was a playoff team
-Allen: Buffalo traded up
-Lance: SF was a contender and moved all the way up to two to draft him
-Jackson: wasn’t drafted until the end of the first round and Baltimore was a contender
Just hoping you get a top three pick is not how the well run franchises get their QB’s. Schoen can always trade up.
I would not say paying a mediocre at best QB a rookie contract is anywhere near QB hell. Paying $20M to said QB is absolutely QB hell though.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
Foles was an outlier. He benefited from the fact that he only had 3 games of tape that season, so teams had less opportunity to gameplan against all of the RPO's Pederson had Foles run. Thinking you can replicate that is a fool's errand.
Yes, finding good QB's is hard. You know what's harder? Building a perfect roster that makers the QB position a little less important. Only 3 teams have won a SB in the past 25 years without a HOF-quality QB. Baltimore twice with Dilfer and Flacco, and Philly with Foles. That should tell you how important a good QB is.
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Let me help you here. Is someone you draft going to be a better player than Jones? Maybe, maybe not. Are they going to be a better value? Is TT going to be a better value? Almost definitely.
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With a qb on his rookie deal, a team should probably wait until they are a good qb away from competing so they don’t waste years on that rookie deal
No, the goal is to win, period. Being able to compete with a QB still on a rookie deal is a huge benefit, as it frees up money to spend elsewhere, but that doesn't mean you dump a very good QB simply because his 2nd contract is coming up.
I agree. However, I can see the logic of a team passing on a quarterback that is just beginning a rebuild
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
But Jones is in that same category of QB as Mayfield, Darnold, etc.
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
Agree. I’m having trouble seeing how he has been good, unless he’s been a third down machine for the jags
He might end up having a good year, but 6 catches for 38 yards average for the first two weeks does not stand out as good
So what seems like the more appealing option:
Having Daboll trying to undo all the damage while paying Jones at least $10 million a year but likely close to double that?
Or giving Daboll a rookie QB that isn’t damaged goods, who may be flawed but he has the opportunity to mold him from the ground up.
If Daboll is able to do it with Jones, why couldn’t he do it with a rookie?
2. C.J. Stroud, QB, Ohio State
HT: 6-3 | WT: 215 | Class: Third-year soph.
Stroud is off to a hot start, with 11 touchdown passes and no picks through three games. And remember, it was Stroud, not Bryce Young, who led the FBS in Total QBR last season (91.6 to 87.6). Here are his numbers over the past 12 games, dating back to last season: 316-of-425 (74.4%) for 4,413 yards with 47 touchdown passes and three interceptions. Stroud is a smooth thrower with a big arm in a 6-foot-3 frame. If he keeps improving, he has a great chance to be the No. 1 overall pick.
4. Will Levis, QB, Kentucky
HT: 6-3 | WT: 232 | Class: Senior
I recently went through all of Levis' throws in 16 starts at Kentucky, and I was extremely impressed. He has a rocket launcher for an arm; the Penn State transfer makes some "wow" throws. That has gotten him into trouble at times -- he has four picks in three games this season -- but it's clear watching him that he believes he can fit the ball into any window. My comp is Matthew Stafford. Levis plays in a pro-style offense at Kentucky, and he's not going to need much time to adjust to the NFL. He doesn't have a great supporting cast of playmakers around him, but he makes it work. He can maneuver the pocket and throw on the run. He's the real deal, and he's going to battle to be the top signal-caller in this class, though I want to see him clean up the mistakes and limit his turnovers.
6. Bryce Young, QB, Alabama
HT: 6-0 | WT: 194 | Class: Junior
Don't be alarmed that Young is my third-ranked quarterback here. It's tight at the top, and it'll continue to be tight until April's draft. The reigning Heisman Trophy winner has an incredibly quick release. He's accurate and he goes through read progressions to find his target. He's an anticipatory thrower who knows how to hit receivers where they need the ball to run after the catch. He doesn't make many mistakes. The knock on Young is size; he doesn't have a huge frame, which NFL scouts will likely play up as we get closer to the draft. I don't think he's quite 6-foot. Still, his arm is more than good enough for him to be a great signal-caller at the next level. After a 47-touchdown, seven-interception season in 2021, he has nine touchdown passes and two picks in the first three games.
15. Anthony Richardson, QB, Florida
HT: 6-4 | WT: 236 | Class: Third-year soph.
This is still a ranking that is all about potential because Richardson has a ton of talent. I'm not giving up on him. He didn't get many chances as a passer last season -- he threw just 64 passes -- and he's completing just 53.2% of his passes with zero touchdowns and four interceptions so far this season. But the arm talent and the dual-threat ability are undeniable. He hasn't taken a step forward as a passer yet, but there's still plenty of time. I wouldn't be surprised if he returned to school next year and entered the 2024 draft, after he gets more starts under his belt.
21. Tyler Van Dyke, QB, Miami
HT: 6-4 | WT: 224 | Class: Third-year soph.
I wrote about Van Dyke earlier this week, after a so-so outing at Texas A&M. He was missing his best wideout (Xavier Restrepo) and he and Miami never could get into a rhythm. Like Richardson, he's young and doesn't have to enter the 2023 draft; if he keeps improving, gathering starts and experience along the way, he could compete to be the No. 1 quarterback in 2024. Still, he's fun to watch when he gets going, and he threw 25 touchdown passes with just six interceptions last season. He's agile and can throw on the run, and he has the arm to make every throw. He has to get more consistent, though.
That is 4 QB’s in Kiper’s top 25 prospects. But, the majority of them suck based on a ridiculous small sample size. Just need more time to evaluate Jones after 4 years though!
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15827285 ajr2456 said:
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
Agree. I’m having trouble seeing how he has been good, unless he’s been a third down machine for the jags
He might end up having a good year, but 6 catches for 38 yards average for the first two weeks does not stand out as good
Curious, what would you classify Daniel Jones as for the first two weeks?
I don’t think good is a bad description of Engram through two games, do you prefer solid?
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
There is some serious first round talent this year in terms of physical attributes. I can think of at least six prospects physically more gifted than Jones.
I'd rather take the tangible/physical skills and hope a good coaching staff can teach and develop the player how to play QB in the NFL. Because this we know for sure - physical skills convey to the NFL. The other parts - college accuracy, smart, leadership, winning, etc - are much harder to predict if they can convey to the elite level of NFL play.
I also only referenced the 12-12 record in the context that given that they've been .500 with Jones at QB over the past season and a half that he's been healthy it is not unreasonable to expect the Giants to win 7-8 games over the final 15 weeks, especially given their schedule, and end up with a mid-first round pick. And of course you can find the QB there, just the odds aren't very good. Indeed, for every Mahomes taken 10-15 there's also a bunch of busts like Rosen, Haskins, Manuel, Ponder and Gabbert.
I'm actually something of an agnostic when it comes to Jones. I think he has some talent and would dearly like to see him in an offense with some legit receivers around him, but I really don't see that happening this year, although if I'm Joe Schoen I am at least scouring the market.
In the end, I am quite prepared (what other choice do I have) to live with however Schoen/Daboll/Kalfka decide to proceed. However, I am not sure I see a whole lot of great options there and I am starting to wonder if in fact they might ultimately decide that in fact the best option might be to stick with Jones for 2-3 years and build up the talent base around him, although if I was doing that I would also be looking to draft QBs in middle rounds to see what kicks out.
I agree. However, I can see the logic of a team passing on a quarterback that is just beginning a rebuild
I disagree. As you've noted, finding a good QB is hard, take one when you can. Deciding to get one after the rebuild has started is a poor decision, as you may start to win a few more games and take yourself out of the running for the top guys.
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
If Jones winds up being the best option for next season then we can sign him to a new contract during free agency.
Sean - its Mel Kiper, he is paid to pump up QB prospects. The facts are no one outside of Stroud and Young have looked good vs decent competition. Do you watch these games? Levis, Richardson, and Van Dyke have all underperformed thus far. Yes, Van Dyke didnt have his top WR, but he didnt look good and isnt very mobile (which seems to be a trait Daboll wants). And I want Van Dyke and Levis to be good so there are other options
People forget just how bad and limited this roster.
...
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Literally NO ONE is saying that "anyone they draft" is better than Jones, but here's the thing, we know what we have in Jones, we don't know what we would have with a guy drafted. Yes, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but sticking with Jones guarantees mediocrity.
And the "early returns" on Jones aren't good? He's in his 4th year, it is no longer early.
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In comment 15827473 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15827285 ajr2456 said:
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
Agree. I’m having trouble seeing how he has been good, unless he’s been a third down machine for the jags
He might end up having a good year, but 6 catches for 38 yards average for the first two weeks does not stand out as good
Curious, what would you classify Daniel Jones as for the first two weeks?
I don’t think good is a bad description of Engram through two games, do you prefer solid?
Jones really has nothing to do with Engram anymore. Since you asked, I feel like Jones' stats are a bit hollow. I'm not impressed with them to be honest. Engram got a decent contract from the Jags, his production in the first two weeks is far from good in my eyes. Again, he may end up having a good year, but I do not consider averaging 6 catches for 38 yards with 0 tds good. I would say my statement about Engram's production is far less a stretch than saying he has been good.
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I agree. However, I can see the logic of a team passing on a quarterback that is just beginning a rebuild
I disagree. As you've noted, finding a good QB is hard, take one when you can. Deciding to get one after the rebuild has started is a poor decision, as you may start to win a few more games and take yourself out of the running for the top guys.
No problem, I get understand. You make a good point. The NFL has very few things that are cut and dry. So many variables prevent that.
I also only referenced the 12-12 record in the context that given that they've been .500 with Jones at QB over the past season and a half that he's been healthy it is not unreasonable to expect the Giants to win 7-8 games over the final 15 weeks, especially given their schedule, and end up with a mid-first round pick. And of course you can find the QB there, just the odds aren't very good. Indeed, for every Mahomes taken 10-15 there's also a bunch of busts like Rosen, Haskins, Manuel, Ponder and Gabbert.
The odds aren't going to get much better sitting on their ass hoping with Jones either while his pay goes up.
First round QBs can have success but obivusly nothing is a gurantee, even a #1 overall pick. But that doesn't mean you don't do your evals and still try to figure it out, and maybe make a move if you see your guy in striking distance.
And it's 11-13 over Jones' last 24 starts...
People forget just how bad and limited this roster.
They could easily be 0-2 right now. I don't believe what we've seen in weeks 1 and 2 is going to sustain a winning pace
Is this in reply to me?
If this Giants team finishes anywhere above a .500 record this season, then the staff from top to bottom will have done one hell of a coaching job!
Amen to that.
I think a lot of people are seeing the Jones situation as you are. He needs to play better but I think BD/MK are smart enough to see the flaws on offense. They have to determine how much is Jones versus the elements around him imv.
Thanks for your contributions.
Does he see and throw to the open man on time?
Nope.
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but the Jones Sucks people think ANYONE they draft will be better than Jones - and that just isnt the case
...
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Literally NO ONE is saying that "anyone they draft" is better than Jones, but here's the thing, we know what we have in Jones, we don't know what we would have with a guy drafted. Yes, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but sticking with Jones guarantees mediocrity.
And the "early returns" on Jones aren't good? He's in his 4th year, it is no longer early.
Yes, every Jones Sucks person has been saying that anyone would be better at QB
And I meant early returns for this season
And I meant early returns for this season
So you're willing to ignore the previous 3 years of poor play by Jones, but have already decided all of the college QB's suck after 3 games? Good to know.
That's Jones to a "T"
And its known as "hell" because you waste years as a franchise trying to remake the club so the QB can succeed. But he never will.
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And I meant early returns for this season
So you're willing to ignore the previous 3 years of poor play by Jones, but have already decided all of the college QB's suck after 3 games? Good to know.
You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
Even if you're willing to give Jones a pass on his first 3 years, and acknowledge that the "early returns" on this season aren't great, you have no problem deciding that none of the college QB's are good enough after [checks schedule] 3 games.
Good to know.
Are we saying all this college coaches are the best coaches in the world with systems that make their QB look good and don’t hinder them?
Does he see and throw to the open man on time?
Nope.
Thanks for boiling it into a nutshell. This is the foundation talent of every good QB, (I like the “on time” part.)
Not in the DJFC but those who keep using could probably use a revaluation of how they see the game imv.
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
Are we saying all this college coaches are the best coaches in the world with systems that make their QB look good and don’t hinder them?
He definitely has not been in a good situation up to now, and his 12-12 record is not really that bad considering those circumstances.
But, this team is better, they are 2-0 mostly because of defense and their running game. He has made plays contributing to those victories, but he has to do more; I think he will.
But if the decision had to be made right now about next season, I agree they would move on.
Scroll up one post above yours for the archetype.
For real. I’m a huge Van Dyke guy. Would LOVE him to be the next QB here.
Then scroll one down from your 3:04 for the counter. Pretty close to getting good assessment of the situation.
If we finish at around .500 for the season it puts us in a really bad spot for a QB. I guess the how we got to that point would have to be in discussion. Did Jones play well or did something else happen? He as not played well, I would say average and we are sitting at 2-0. What would be the discussion if he lit it up yet we were 0-2?
I think if we are in the middle of the pack at the end of the season its a real tough spot to get a draftable QB. Cost is way to high in the draft so FA or trade would be the best option. We are 2-0 without 2 of our top 3 draft picks and the 3rd isnt exactly helping us at this point. Its too early to make any hard decisions on players for next year. Trading Barkley would probably take the wind out of the sails a bit right now and send a bad message. We will know by week 10 the real direction for Jones next season. Id like to worry about being 3-0 on Tuesday. Imagine how good that would be even if Jones plays terrible.
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to figure out who exactly is in this DJ Fan club. From what I can tell posters seem to use it as a diss for anyone they think is defending Daniel Jones whether they really are or not. I guess one's membership is fluid, depending on who you are having a conversation with at the moment.
Scroll up one post above yours for the archetype.
The guy who did the post above Chris,I have on good authority, is pretty much a Giants fan; far as I can tell, most people who come here are.
There are some though, such as yourself, who often seem salty with those of differing opinions from their own, that s ok too.
Although I must admit to a lack of understanding why any support shown towards this quarterback riles you so
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
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Am I reading this right? The argument is that if we draft a QB high, they might be a bust, so we should keep the high first round bust we have at QB?
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
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In comment 15827778 bw in dc said:
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
I would never downplay the ability to process the game. It's a big variable. But just because you see the game, doesn't mean you can execute the next part - the delivery. The throw.
Furthermore, it is impossible to know if someone who can process the game at the college game can do the same at the pro game. And that's because the next level is much more sophisticated (scheme wise) and better athletes everywhere. In other words, you don't know if that will convey.
However, the physical skills almost always convey. If a QB is tall and thick that - obviously - conveys. If a QB is mobile, that should convey. If a QB has a great arm, that should convey. If a QB is an overall great athlete, that should convey. Etc.
Give me the physical attributes and I will leave it in the hands of the coaches to develop and teach.
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Am I reading this right? The argument is that if we draft a QB high, they might be a bust, so we should keep the high first round bust we have at QB?
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
When all you have to brag about are their physical skills, it means they cant throw it well enough, cant read defenses, and do most of their work by running it after their one read is covered
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You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
Even if you're willing to give Jones a pass on his first 3 years, and acknowledge that the "early returns" on this season aren't great, you have no problem deciding that none of the college QB's are good enough after [checks schedule] 3 games.
Good to know.
I said early returns for the college QBs also. Reading comprehension
I was wondering today if not getting that 5th year option has put even more pressure on Jones; and that's manifesting itself in his play where he's either (1) unable to pull the trigger (for fear of making a mistake) or (2) his inability to process is even more pronounced.
Certainly something to keep a eye on.
Absolutely. Jones was incredible that game. Never have seen that side of him since. He has some nice plays here and there and he’s managed some nice games, but the 2019 Tampa game he put the offense on his back.
I linked his highlights from that first Tampa game, that QB does not exist anymore. Maybe there is something to the fact that Judge/Garrett coached a lot of potential explosiveness out of him.
Link - ( New Window )
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Sean, one could argue-& I would-that Jones' debut vs. the Bucs was the highwater mark of his time here.
Absolutely. Jones was incredible that game. Never have seen that side of him since. He has some nice plays here and there and he’s managed some nice games, but the 2019 Tampa game he put the offense on his back.
I linked his highlights from that first Tampa game, that QB does not exist anymore. Maybe there is something to the fact that Judge/Garrett coached a lot of potential explosiveness out of him. Link - ( New Window )
Maybe it's Slayton that doesn't exist anymore.
And if you recall that Bucs team had dismal pass defense.
Swiss cheese.
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Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
I would never downplay the ability to process the game. It's a big variable. But just because you see the game, doesn't mean you can execute the next part - the delivery. The throw.
Furthermore, it is impossible to know if someone who can process the game at the college game can do the same at the pro game. And that's because the next level is much more sophisticated (scheme wise) and better athletes everywhere. In other words, you don't know if that will convey.
However, the physical skills almost always convey. If a QB is tall and thick that - obviously - conveys. If a QB is mobile, that should convey. If a QB has a great arm, that should convey. If a QB is an overall great athlete, that should convey. Etc.
Give me the physical attributes and I will leave it in the hands of the coaches to develop and teach.
The problem is someone like Richardson has had plenty of coaching and has not made a lot of strides as a passer. I question if guys like him and Malik Willis have the intellect to be an NFL QB. Josh Allen is a name that is thrown out a lot, but his college coaching was atrocious. You could see he had the intellect, but the mechanics were very rudimentary.
Orlovsky - ( New Window )
Coaching can only do so much, 21 year olds need to be in game action
The problem is someone like Richardson has had plenty of coaching and has not made a lot of strides as a passer. I question if guys like him and Malik Willis have the intellect to be an NFL QB. Josh Allen is a name that is thrown out a lot, but his college coaching was atrocious. You could see he had the intellect, but the mechanics were very rudimentary.
Despite some very appealing physical skills, Richardson is playing himself into the 2024 class. There is a lot of fat in that game to trim to - potentially - get to a filet mignon.
As bad as he's played this year, I don't know if he would even be drafted next year as a QB in 2023. Maybe late day three - at best.
Look, you have to also have production to compliment the metrics. And he's got nothing there this year - yet.
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Sean, one could argue-& I would-that Jones' debut vs. the Bucs was the highwater mark of his time here.
And if you recall that Bucs team had dismal pass defense.
Swiss cheese.
It was, but Jones looked so comfortable in the pocket and not robotic. To christian’s credit while we were all bashing Shurmur, he was the one who pointed out the potential consequences with losing his offensive system.
Now, I do think Jones rookie season was a bit overrated (turnovers and a lot of stats coming against bad teams, NYJ & WFT). But, there is no question Shurmur was better for Jones than Judge/Garrett.
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In comment 15827138 Klaatu said:
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Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the best QB you can find? If that includes trading Barkley, go for it.
because any QB still has to be part of a team, and if you sacrificed everything to get the best qb available ( who my not even be a future hall of famer) and he has no line, or you have no receivers, it doesn't make a difference.
You make extremist statements as if they are truism but if questioned you'll offer all sort of qualifications and assumptions that there isn't actually room for within the strict parameters of the statements you make.
That is to say, it's rather obvious why you wouldn't do everything possible to get the best available QB. It could ruin your franchise. There are a great many things that are possible to do to get a qb that either cost more than they are worth or cripple a franchises ability to field an effective, or possibly even competent team.
Beyond that, there is no guarantee the player even gives you your moneys worth. You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, therefore I can't imagine it's of any importance. However, I did get a chuckle out of your 'extremist statements" line and my alleged responses to them when challenged. I'm wondering if you have a red backdrop to go along with your red right hand? It wouldn't surprise me if you did. Seems fitting.
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
The point isn't jones is good, I could care less about jones actually, and expect to move on from him next year, or the year after more likely. The point was you don't wreck your team and compromise your future to get a QB who may or may not be better. Get a better QB, sure. Make it a priority, sure.NP with that.
Jones is mediocre.You don't need to mortgage your future to reach for a mediocre QB. We already did that with Jones,in case y'all missed that, and wasted a 4th on a guy then never should have gone that high to begin with. We don't need to repeat the process cause we hate Jones. It's just stupid. Get the guy you really want when it makes sense to do it, not "at any price" like a bunch of panicked morons or sulky babies. That's the point.
Good clip. That s a concern. Year s of getting hit , turning the ball over, have had their impact on him. We ll see if that changes as year moves on.
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but the Jones Sucks people think ANYONE they draft will be better than Jones - and that just isnt the case
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Good post.
The point isn't jones is good, I could care less about jones actually, and expect to move on from him next year, or the year after more likely. The point was you don't wreck your team and compromise your future to get a QB who may or may not be better. Get a better QB, sure. Make it a priority, sure.NP with that.
Jones is mediocre.You don't need to mortgage your future to reach for a mediocre QB. We already did that with Jones,in case y'all missed that, and wasted a 4th on a guy then never should have gone that high to begin with. We don't need to repeat the process cause we hate Jones. It's just stupid. Get the guy you really want when it makes sense to do it, not "at any price" like a bunch of panicked morons or sulky babies. That's the point.
Of course you don't shop desperate. That is what kept getting Gettleman in trouble with both free agency and draft, including the Jones pick. I also don't read any large groups of posters suggesting the NYG do so either. Yes to being very interested in what can be done at QB in this next draft, but not at all costs.
And this comment made above though is somewhat obtuse-
Jones has been starting games since Sept 2019 so referring to that timeline as "early returns" is nonsense. He has had many starting chances to display his skills and the only thing it accomplished thus far is the organization passing on his 5th year option, signing a veteran to a 2-year deal and making him a lame duck QB in 2022.
And just standardizing any QB picked in the middle of Rd 1 (around 15th) as being average at best is just being short-sighted. Way too many variables that go into whether a guy will be succcessful at the NFL level after being picked in all of round one, no less 15th. And the college season is also so early at this point, so really need to couch that statement until next offseason and these QBs have been put under more of a microscope.
As for the college QBs not named Stroud/Young, early returns means just that - how they have looked so far. And it aint good
As for the college QBs not named Stroud/Young, early returns means just that - how they have looked so far. And it aint good
Got it. Though still doesn't feel like either is portraying an accurate picture of the current situation. The clock on Daniel Jones in NY is running out while the college QBs have everything in front of them.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
You are better off looking at it like, this is a crapshoot, let's find a way to get as many chances at it as possible. Also, in what way are we calling Jones mediocre? Didn't we look at all the advanced stats and pretty much see he was below average if not close to the bottom?
In any kind of asset management the biggest mistake you can make is hoping something will change it's performance pattern. You need discipline to get out of bad things quickly and a willingness to churn in new assets and new ideas, this isn't complicated. What complicates it is people like our friends DG and Mara literally catching feelings for the assets. That clouds your judgement and it happens here too. Wanting to keep Jones with what he's shown on the field means you are using determinations other than his on field play to generate that perspective
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
Jones only has 1 INT, so only 8.5 INT's. I assume you meant total turnovers.
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I know this is an unpopular take (I'm very neutral on Jones btw) -- but I think Schoen will regret declining Jones's 5th year option.
I was really surprised he didn't. Given the state of the offense and all the new pieces, I figured they'd give him 2 years to prove it.
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
Jones only has 1 INT, so only 8.5 INT's. I assume you meant total turnovers.
Yup, thanks Brett.
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In comment 15828321 christian said:
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I know this is an unpopular take (I'm very neutral on Jones btw) -- but I think Schoen will regret declining Jones's 5th year option.
I was really surprised he didn't. Given the state of the offense and all the new pieces, I figured they'd give him 2 years to prove it.
Its possible although I think Schoen has a good idea of his worth is and that he's probably fine letting him walk if Jones doesn't take a market rate deal, something like 2/$25m-$30m with lower end guarantees, if he even offers one. Schoen may just want a clean slate so whatever Jones' cost is in 2023 could be completely irrelevant.
There are a bunch of UFA QB's that are going to be starting some or the bulk of their teams games this year, he can find a cheap option in a pinch if Jones isn't wanted or won't accept a cheaper deal.
Jones, Bridgewater, Mayfield, Darnold, Brissett, Geno Smith, etc. Jimmy G and Lamar Jackson are wildcards so i'm not including them as I think the franchise tag will be in play for both (especially if there's something more going on with Trey Lance and his injury).
There are a bunch of UFA QB's that are going to be starting some or the bulk of their teams games this year, he can find a cheap option in a pinch if Jones isn't wanted or won't accept a cheaper deal.
I agree with a lot of that. I think ultimately they draft a rookie and go with Taylor (their usual suspect).
The bottom end starter market is just so weird. There's only one player in the 15M range, Winston. You either have guys in the back up/rookie range at 10M or less. Then it really jumps to 30M (Brady makes 25M but that's an outlier).
Practically, I don't think Jones would accept a 2-year deal. Especially if he has an OK season and stays healthy. He'd be better off taking a 1-year prove it deal and get back to UFA.
If Jones has a pretty good year I'd understand if they keep him for 1/22M. I sure hope they don't franchise him.
Jones, Bridgewater, Mayfield, Darnold, Brissett, Geno Smith, etc. Jimmy G and Lamar Jackson are wildcards so i'm not including them as I think the franchise tag will be in play for both (especially if there's something more going on with Trey Lance and his injury).
Jimmy G can't be tagged, it's in the contract he just signed.
Agree on both counts. Jimmy G would be little more than a placeholder until a franchise QB is in place, Lamar is another story entirely.