while he is a hot commodity.
This 900-word opinion piece went in a different direction than I was expecting since it morphs into a full-blown discussion about Daniel Jones. And I'm not sure I can do justice in conveying the essence of the argument, but here are a few tidbits:
(1) Giants could well be in the hunt for a play-off spot this season;
(2) Rather than be sellers, Joe Schoen should be in the market looking to upgrade his WR unit ASAP;
(3) Daniel Jones is completing over 70% of his passes; he's in the Top 10 for passer efficiency; he is 12-12 in last 24 starts; and the Giants will probably finish around .500 this season, which will give them about the 15th pick in the Draft;
(4) In other words, Giants are not going to find the next great QB at 15, and it is better to build around the pieces the Giants currently have -- including Saquon Barkley -- rather than trade away a ton of Draft capital to move way up to find a top QB.
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The call to trade Saquon Barkley (and/or cut ties with Daniel Jones after this season) has made its rounds on BBI. While I understand the logic, I believe BBIers are wrong insofar as they have fallen into a trap of "all or nothing" thinking.
In other words, BBIers are implicitly arguing: What's the use of building a roster if it can't ultimately bring home a Super Bowl trophy? But I don't fully buy into that perspective. The Giants have given us a decade of miserable football. In contrast, the Steelers, for example, had several strong play-off seasons, but fell short of winning the Super Bowl. I would have been very proud (and thoroughly enjoyed Giants football) had Big Blue delivered a "Steelers-like" performance over the past decade.
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And they were right to do so. Barkley is a different player at a different stage of his career. It’s not an easy decision
Hell....I cursed the Giants to 10 years of lousy football to win the last one (didn't except it to happen 😁).
I have several Cowboy fans with grown kids never experiencing a championship. Both my kids have been to the canyon of heros and celebrated Super Bowls in person.....
Sorry....no way. New England is only team that I would swap places.....
But you really need a better than average quarterback.
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
As far as DJ goes, I am practically a fanboy and am one of the few people who thought we should have picked up his option year. But the Jones take seems off. It is hard to have watched him play and then talk about top 10 efficiency. He had a solid first game with one giant bonehead play and a mediocre at best second game. As always with QBs, stats are virtually meaningless if you don't watch the game. Hard to see him as being better than 15-20 in QB rankings long term. As far as trading him, there will be zero market. I am not sure I would take a six month rental on Patrick Mahomes. It just takes too long to have a QB acclimate. And while the ability to franchise Mahomes means something, don't think that has value for DJ.
With both SB and DJ the long term is likely to be based on what kind or contract we have to give them. I doubt SB will be worth it, as RBs almost never are. DJ ain't going to be worth a QB max contract, but I could see him worth a 2 to 3 year midrange deal.
By the way a shoutout to Colin who always does great work and has forgotten more about football than I know.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
I'd rather win the next game then worry about next year.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
So could Goff, yet LAR still got rid of him. Jones is a poor man's Goff, hopefully NYG doesn't make the same mistake LAR did.
I don't think the team needs to tank a season to get their quarterback, especially not when the "can't miss" prospects have such mixed results.
You've got the Joe Burrows, Justin Heberts, and Josh Allens of the world who are top 10 picks that panned out. But there are also plenty of Sam Darnolds, Baker Mayfields, and Jamarcus Russells out there...or the Alex Smiths who are good enough to start but not great enough to be franchise players.
Then you've got the guys like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson who lasted until near the end of the first round, or the Russell Wilsons of the world who made it into the mid-rounds.
We're not so far removed from people lamenting that we lost the "Chase Young Bowl" against Washington. Or from Washington trading the world to get Robert Griffin, who gave them one good season.
The Giants need to be within trading distance of a quarterback they have a strong conviction in. Then they need to trust that they have their evaluation right and that their coaches can get the most out of that player. History has proven over and over again that it's far more than just getting a high draft pick.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
There are no more great teams.
It's a QB driven league.
If you check out the GBN attached opinion, they have a direct answer to your POV.
If a new contract is looking like a roadblock, then perhaps it changes the decision calculus. But, I think SB will remain a Giant even after this season.
Health is the only concern with him.
But lets just say, you give him a 2nd contract at 15m/yr. Say he only earns 50% of it because of injury. 4yr contract for easy math.
Year 1 15mil
Year 2 15mil
Year 3 15mil
Year 4 15mil
Say he doesn't earn Year 3 and 4 so in reality you pay him
Year 1 30mil
Year 2 30mil
Year 3 0mil
Year 4 0mil
If year 1 and 2 his contribution to the team winning is on par with what say Davante Adams brings to his team. Aren't we happy?!
It's all about guaranteed money anyways.
Davante Adams = 65m guaranteed
Christian McCaffrey = 38m guaranteed
Again about 1/2 the cost.
Why not just sit back and enjoy watching a playmaker make plays while he can. And stop worry about paying the man 50cents/$1 in the future.
One other point.
Barkley has averaged ~8m/year so far in his career.
McCaffrey 16m/yr 2nd contract is really 13m/yr for 3yrs. With a bunch of option years after that.
(Potential Out: 2023, 3 yr, $39,174,774; $18,352,250 dead) Spotrac
You're going to get rid of a playmaker, over 5m/yr??? Jeez, OK.
He has to prove he can stay healthy if he wants to get a McCaffrey contract. Still lots TBD before you have to evaluate the risk, draw on history, but every case is unique. But I believe this discussion was based on the hypothetical that he would continue what he has done the 1st 2 weeks and stay healthy.
His last 24 starts.
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
Giants are standing on the very same precipice as the Vikings, and Cousins is a superior QB to Jones. We are this close to making the wrong step into QB Hell, make no mistake about it.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
These are short term deals for Cousins so they are choosing to keep re-upping him. That's not QB hell, they could have moved on from him and chose not to and gave him more money instead. Poor decision? Sure, but they weren't locked into playing him long term. I understand the strategy, it just hasn't worked out for them.
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QB hell is like the Viking....paying a middle of the road QB like a stud QB.
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
There are no more great teams.
It's a QB driven league.
I'm not sure I totally buy into this. Throw Josh Allen behind the Giants O-line of the past several years, and then stir in the Giants WR unit... and what have you got? Surely not the same Josh Allen everyone is drooling over today.
The Bills had more player assets to trade than the Giants do, however I won't think we'll be picking as low as 21st.
Rather than stand pat with Jones and build around him, I'd expect Schoen to make a few "bold moves" to get their guy this offseason if they think there is one that is worth the risk.
I don't think the team needs to tank a season to get their quarterback, especially not when the "can't miss" prospects have such mixed results.
You've got the Joe Burrows, Justin Heberts, and Josh Allens of the world who are top 10 picks that panned out. But there are also plenty of Sam Darnolds, Baker Mayfields, and Jamarcus Russells out there...or the Alex Smiths who are good enough to start but not great enough to be franchise players.
Then you've got the guys like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson who lasted until near the end of the first round, or the Russell Wilsons of the world who made it into the mid-rounds.
We're not so far removed from people lamenting that we lost the "Chase Young Bowl" against Washington. Or from Washington trading the world to get Robert Griffin, who gave them one good season.
The Giants need to be within trading distance of a quarterback they have a strong conviction in. Then they need to trust that they have their evaluation right and that their coaches can get the most out of that player. History has proven over and over again that it's far more than just getting a high draft pick.
I am very much in agreement with your thinking here!
Jones can win....if surrounded by a great team.
Very few QBs are worth 2nd contracts
What evidence is there that Jones can win? There is none.
The Giants aren't winning a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones. I don't know why that is hard for some to comprehend. People seem to have a weird sentimental attachment to the guy. He isn't playing the same game as the Herberts, Mahomes, Jacksons. And paying a RB big money, especially one with a checkered history of lower body injuries, would be incredibly stupid.
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
His last 24 starts.
I get that Angel, sorry for the confusion. It just seems like there was so much losing 12-12 seems wrong
So he was 2-14 for n his first 16 starts?
Wish I was better at researching this stuff. If true 12-12 with that roster is not a bad stat
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Biggest thing is that we are almost certainly going to look to upgrade from Jones and even if we pick 15th we can achieve that. We also can trade up if the opportunity presents itself. We can also trade for a QB, or sign a stopgap in FA. There are a bunch of options.
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
So does he keep getting mulligans until its deemed that his Ol and WR are good enough? At some point is it on the 6th pick to elevate the other players on offense?
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Not buying. Look deeper into how he plays drive to drive
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
I have no idea how this is going to play out, but I don't understand why what you wrote, M.S., is so hard to understand.
Jones has been a clear contributor to the offensive woes of the team. And he isn’t showing anything this year that he is breaking out of that shell…
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In comment 15827185 Jimmy Googs said:
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
The argument is NOT that Daniel Jones in a .500 QB over his last 24 starts. Rather, he is a .500 QB with a bottom-dwelling offensive line and WR unit. And the defense has sucked as well, meaning the offense hardly ever got a sniff of the ball because the defense couldn't get off the field.
Not buying. Look deeper into how he plays drive to drive
You're not "buying" because you are biased against Daniel Jones who is by no means a top echelon QB. But he is better than your perception of him. A lot better.
Draft a good enough one and build a team. You know what big money QB teams hate come playoff time. Physical teams. Outstanding fronts. Offenses that are balanced. Great HC's.
JS will make a bold move if he is within striking distance for a QB he likes. I am also hoping he has reconsidered his team building approach since being in the Giants building. The blue print is all around him. It is all around the NFCE.
Or you can hope for this "magic" QB and try modernizing your way to a championship. Hopefully in your path you don't wind up facing the type of team I mentioned. It most often does not go well come playoff time.
I see the players around him too and still stand firm in that assessment without bias
What piece am I missing?
QB hell is when we are way overpaying for a QB's performance and it hamstrings the rest of our spending so the team never becomes a legitimate Super Bowl threat. Cousins is the perfect example, and a number of others (and I would include Dak in this).
This is exactly why Daboll/Schoen brought in Tyrod. They can win with him and he is cheap
I am not concerned about QB for next year as we are in this year. Most here discount FA and possible trades etc in the off season.
Look at it this way:
1) Brady will be done in TB. Are they going all in with Trask? I doubt it.
2) Rogers in GB is always in flux and he seems like a pretty flakey dude. He could want out, he could retire. If he stays, GB will shop Love and free them up before his contract comes due.
3) Ravens will be trying to get Jackson signed, possible franchise tag but I doubt exclusive tag though. They will let another team set the market price and then decide to match or let him go and take the kings ransom in picks. (BTW- Huntley their backup is also a FA in 2023).
4) 49ers and Jimmy G will part ways this offseason.
5) The Phins have two QB's who have been starters in the league and Thompson a rookie showed out in the pre-season. The Phins could showcase him in the spring and summer to deal him for added picks if Tua is the guy.
The point I am making is that there will be movement all over the league in the off season QB wise. Teh Giants have done the best thing they could have done and that is getting a start on setting their Oline up as a solid unit. It has had some growing pains right now but we have solid foundational pieces at both T's and a young G who should develop.
Let's let this season play out more.
As far as Jones is concerned, his performance has definitely been hampered by a poor OL and supporting cast, but he has consistently not seen the entire field on many plays. The Giants not picking up his fifth year option means it's very unlikely he'll return IMO unless he leads the team deep into the playoffs and is not the reason we fall short. That doesn't seem likely. Jones right now looks like a classic game manager.
Barkley won't be traded. He's the entire offense. He also has little trade value IMO. He's had a major knee injury, will be a FA after this season, and the RB position has been devalued. As far has him returning after this season, he's certainly increasing his chances, but it will depend on the money, and again, what happens the rest of the season.
"And that is going to have them drafting pretty close to the middle of the opening round and good luck trying to find the next great QB drafting 15th. I suppose it happens, but like once every couple of decades. I personally just don’t see any way short of trading away your next 2-3 drafts to move up to get one of the top guys even if that’s possible."
"In the end, it may very well end up that Jones IS the Giants guy for the next 2-3 years. If he ultimately only is a game-manager then you have him manage the game because right now I don’t see a whole lot of options to replace him with anybody with really good odds to be better."
"It’s also possible that if the Giants did decide they needed someone better at QB that they go the LA Rams route and look to trade for an established starter rather than throw the dice on a draftee who is going to take a couple of years to develop at which time most of your solid veterans like Williams and Jackson are likely to be gone and your core young guys like Ojulari, Lawrence, McKinney, and Thomas will all coming up on free agency and will be tough to resign. And you won’t have had the chance to replace many of them because you traded away all your picks to get the QB."
But what vet is out there like a Stafford?
How is trading Barkley going to help NYG land a QB?
I'm afraid to even ask that around here as it gives so many people the vapors.