while he is a hot commodity.
This 900-word opinion piece went in a different direction than I was expecting since it morphs into a full-blown discussion about Daniel Jones. And I'm not sure I can do justice in conveying the essence of the argument, but here are a few tidbits:
(1) Giants could well be in the hunt for a play-off spot this season;
(2) Rather than be sellers, Joe Schoen should be in the market looking to upgrade his WR unit ASAP;
(3) Daniel Jones is completing over 70% of his passes; he's in the Top 10 for passer efficiency; he is 12-12 in last 24 starts; and the Giants will probably finish around .500 this season, which will give them about the 15th pick in the Draft;
(4) In other words, Giants are not going to find the next great QB at 15, and it is better to build around the pieces the Giants currently have -- including Saquon Barkley -- rather than trade away a ton of Draft capital to move way up to find a top QB.
************************************************************************************************************************
The call to trade Saquon Barkley (and/or cut ties with Daniel Jones after this season) has made its rounds on BBI. While I understand the logic, I believe BBIers are wrong insofar as they have fallen into a trap of "all or nothing" thinking.
In other words, BBIers are implicitly arguing: What's the use of building a roster if it can't ultimately bring home a Super Bowl trophy? But I don't fully buy into that perspective. The Giants have given us a decade of miserable football. In contrast, the Steelers, for example, had several strong play-off seasons, but fell short of winning the Super Bowl. I would have been very proud (and thoroughly enjoyed Giants football) had Big Blue delivered a "Steelers-like" performance over the past decade.
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That decision has not been made yet, nor should it have been made.
Patrick Mahomes - Drafted 10 overall, Chiefs gave up a future first and a 3rd to move up from 27
Josh Allen - Drafted 7 overall, Bills gave up (in multiple trades) 2 seconds, and their starting LT to move up from 21
Deshaun Watson - Drafted 12 overall, Browns gave up a future first to move up from 25 overall
Lamar Jackson - Drafted 32 overall, Ravens gave up a future second to move up from 52
All of these QB were drafted in a range that wouldn't be impossible to move up and get from 15. That doesn't even take into account that we may very well end up with a higher draft pick than 15. The Panthers started last year 3-0, and ended up with the 6 overall.
QBs are difference makers. If you get a true franchise QB, he more than makes up for any deficiencies in what you give up to get him.
I'm afraid to even ask that around here as it gives so many people the vapors.
It is less about that and determining what type of team DJ needs around him to accomplish the objective which is a championship. Then it is cost versus feasibility imv.
Those are less than stellar numbers. Maybe the rest of the roster isn’t as bad as it is made out to be.
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
QB's are not always found in the TOP 5 of the draft. Some of the better QB's are the ones that are the 2nd, 3rd or 4th option that year.
2017- Mahomes and Watson- two very good QB's and now 1 Superstar and 1 VERY good NFL QB's were taken 10th and 12th in the draft.
2018- Josh Allen was 8th (the 3rd QB taken) and jackson was the 32nd pick of the first rd.
More importantly though look at the # of high QB picks that have failed to live up to expectations and or flat out failed.
2010- Sam Bradford and Tim Tebow RD 1 Qb's- failed overall.
2011- Newton went #1, but Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder all went in the top half of RD 1.
2012- Luck and RgIII went 1 and 2 (RGIII due to injury never amounted to much) but after that Ryan Tannehill (a Jones comparison) and Brandon Weedon.
2013- EJ Manuel the only QB in RD1..
2014- Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel and Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy B is the only one even remotely successful.
2015- Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota went 1 and 2, but neither really lived up to the hype and expectation.
2016- Jared Goff and Carson Wentz went 1 and 2, then Paxton Lynch. Though Wentz and Goff went to the SB neither QB won the SB (Goff lost and Wentz was out) and both are on new teams with Wentz on his third team.
2017 and 2018 were covered above.
2019- saw Murray, Jones and Haskins. Jury out on Jones, Haskins flamed out in Washington, went to Pittsburgh as 3rd string and was killed this past offseason
2020- Now this group appears to be a stud group- Burrow, Tua and Herbert with Jordan Love getting an incomplete so far.
2021- Lawrence & Wilson went 1 and 2 (Lawrence started slower than expected and Wilson hasn't done much period), Trey Lance (49ers gave a ton for him and he sat most of last year, was given the reigns this year and loses game 1 and then is hurt lost for the season, Fields hasn't shown much yet and Mac Jones, who had the best rookie season results wise but will need help to be THE guy.
You have to be very careful that you don't just throw picks and the future away to get a position (QB) and really have to have the gut feeling on a specific player.
I would say game manager might not be bad if we sign on for a year or less if we do not have the ability to get OUR guy but we must avoid giving up a LOT just to get a POSITION!
Those are less than stellar numbers. Maybe the rest of the roster isn’t as bad as it is made out to be.
So maybe letting Evan Engram go was a mistake? Maybe drafting three oline this year including a high 1st wasn't the right thing to do, I suppose Jones should have left and Judge and Garrett should still be here and Golladay could have an all pro year.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
If anything should be taken from Wentz 2017 season it is the value in building a outstanding team that won with a backup QB. That team is probably one of the best arguments against the so called magical QB. Plenty of other examples of teams in the same mold.
Right now we're doing neither, George. Neither.
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
Remember in the mid-10s when the Giants really started to struggle and there was anxiety over not being able to beat the Eagles? The counter-argument was always "whatever, the Eagles may go to the playoffs but they never win the Superbowl." Then they won the Superbowl. You have to be in it to win it.
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In comment 15827169 M.S. said:
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
Yeah, Jones is making Sills, James, and Feliciano look worse
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In comment 15827169 M.S. said:
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In comment 15827161 joeinpa said:
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Where is the 12-12 stat coming from?
Last 24 games Started by Daniel Jones. And GBN argues he has been a .500 QB with an awful roster with a bottom-tier WR unit. And, of course, we all know he's operated behind the NFL's worst offensive line.
Is the GBN argument wrong? Can anyone name a team that's had a worse combination of WRs and OL over the last 3-4 yrs? Mr. Deflection Evan Engram was by default (he could get open, just couldn't catch consistently) DJ's number 1 target for a couple of those yrs.
And for the "no excuses" crowd, does Joe Burrow all of a sudden suck? His team is 0-2, he's got 3 TDs, 4 Ints and a really bad QBR. I don't think he all of a sudden sucks. It's a team game.
One of these days the DJFC will understand that a bad QB makes OL and receivers look worse.
I get your point BUT, there is ZERO way Jones made that shit group look worse last year. WTF.. Billy fucking Price.. Nate Open Doors Solder..come on man.. You can't be that serious about using that group as an example of Jones making people look bad. You are digging deep into your hatred.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
There have been numerous clips posted of open receivers on all-22s with Jones having throwing windows. He's been supported well by the running game outside of the first half against Carolina.
This discussion is basically moot anyway because "if only he had a few more WRs" is not going to be the basis to hand over 31 million.
His catch rate is 30% higher right now, haha. I know its just 2 games but if he corrected that, which was a problem for him both with Eli and Jones, then good for him but I wish he did that here.
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
It really does seem to come off more about proving the haters wrong about Jones than having a coherent franchise vision (outside of what Line of Scrimmage has articulated), which sounds very similar to the vibe around Eli's last years, but Eli had past success to fall back on.
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
One of the flaws isn’t just surrounding him, it’s him.
And the coaching staff has already given a lot of thought to evaluating him. And their conclusion was to pass on the 5th year option. And I would be shocked if anybody on this site would suggest Jones’ performance in the first two games this year has made them regret that decision.
And not for nothing, somebody check that math on the 12-12 record if it’s going to be used as such a critical point in this comical debate…
He's come a long way since dropping our last chance at the playoffs. Get his seat in Canton ready
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
This sums it up perfectly and its the only thing that needs to be said. And its so obvious. Its truly remarkable that anybody doesn't see this.
Great post, Lambuth, please save it because for reproduction.
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
He's come a long way since dropping our last chance at the playoffs. Get his seat in Canton ready
If all QBs miss guys wide open sometimes, don’t all WRs drop passes sometimes? Or is the “can’t be perfect all the time” only reserved for the easy to root for players?
I would not classify that as good, but to each their own I guess
Assuming teams would look at DJ as a possible stop gap QB, how do you rate DJ compared to those other options?
Do you think he is better than Tyrod Taylor?
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
Patrick Mahomes - Drafted 10 overall, Chiefs gave up a future first and a 3rd to move up from 27
Josh Allen - Drafted 7 overall, Bills gave up (in multiple trades) 2 seconds, and their starting LT to move up from 21
Deshaun Watson - Drafted 12 overall, Browns gave up a future first to move up from 25 overall
Lamar Jackson - Drafted 32 overall, Ravens gave up a future second to move up from 52
All of these QB were drafted in a range that wouldn't be impossible to move up and get from 15. That doesn't even take into account that we may very well end up with a higher draft pick than 15. The Panthers started last year 3-0, and ended up with the 6 overall.
QBs are difference makers. If you get a true franchise QB, he more than makes up for any deficiencies in what you give up to get him.
I don't get it either. I have faith that Schoen will do what he needs to do if there is a QB he wants next year.
I also don't get the bellyaching about us being in QB hell. Schoen isn't resigning Jones unless somehow he becomes a dramatically different QB, and even then I suspect he's already made up his mind about Jones and his limitations.
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In comment 15827185 Jimmy Googs said:
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Win-Win
The “hey, let’s keep Daniel Jones because he could be a .500 QB” is silly logic. And doesn’t even take into account that the rest of the roster takes a haircut to pay him even if he met that lofty threshold going forward.
I will wait for the next GBN bright idea…
It is not "could be a .500 QB", it is he has been a .500 QB over the last 24 games despite all of the flaws surrounding him. Losing Barkley, Barkley after major surgery, crap WR, horrible o-line and a ridiculous coaching staff. So maybe if those things around him are fixed AND he improves while gaining more confidence he could lead a winning team.
Will that happen, who knows, but the coaching staff has plenty of time to evaluate it. I, for one, certainly hope it does because it is the shortest distance to a championship.
One of the flaws isn’t just surrounding him, it’s him.
And the coaching staff has already given a lot of thought to evaluating him. And their conclusion was to pass on the 5th year option. And I would be shocked if anybody on this site would suggest Jones’ performance in the first two games this year has made them regret that decision.
And not for nothing, somebody check that math on the 12-12 record if it’s going to be used as such a critical point in this comical debate…
We can't say for sure why the 5th year option wasn't exercised. Maybe they were worried about his injury and how well he would come back from it as he hadn't played a down of football since. Maybe they used it as motivation.
As far as this year goes he hasn't looked great BUT he has also lead game winning 4th qtr drives in both games. He has been sacked an average of 4 times a game which is way higher than what he's had on average through-out his career while producing his best TD to turnover ratio, a 6 point increase in completion percentage over his career average while maintaining his YPA average.
Is that enough proof, certainly not, but it also not enough proof to say he's gone either.
I didn't check the math, did you?
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Can you make the playoffs with the 24th best QB? Yes, but it's very difficult and it typically requires good turnover fortune, great special teams and defensive play, and a favorable schedule. It's not sustainable, and since we're fond of using historical examples, look at the 1997 Giants who struggled in 98 and 99 to recapture the magic behind Kanell and Graham. It was Accorsi making an aggressive move for Collins that turned things around (5 years for $16 million, a contract that was highly criticized at the time). Suddenly Hilliard, Toomer, and Joe J started putting up numbers afterward with KC throwing.
If the Giants go 10-7 or 9-8 and sneak into the 7th or 6th seed while Jones plays like the 23rd best QB, great. That only gives Daboll and Schoen more runway to have a few bad seasons while they do a proper transition to the QB they need.
What's great about it? The 2000 team and then 2003 led to one of the great decisions made by Wellington. TC had the full backing of Welly and TC made sure a repeat of that 2000 SB would never happen again. The foundation of those teams was all rooted in winning the lines and the physical battle.
Don't misread that 2011 team. Look closely at the playoffs and that physical element was on display. Plenty.
2012-till today was about first destroying and then never rebuilding the important foundation of what wins championships. Don't be like the fool who wanted both TC/Eli gone in 2012/13.
Look at the root causes of why the last decade has been so poor. It' clear as day.
We need better QB play. We also need to restore the proper foundation. Hope that JS/BD understand both elements will lead to another Lombardi.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
I think it's not crazy to assume that if Gettleman had stuck to his initial interest in Herbert and waited until 2020 to draft him, the team wins the division in 2020, makes the playoffs in 2021 and Joe Judge is considered a great young coach lmao.
And it's not to say that the 20 or 21 Giants would've been great teams with Herbert, it's just that division was so weak that some improved QB play would've pushed the needle.
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In comment 15827260 Lambuth_Special said:
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Pretty much all you need to know here.
There are now a host of advanced stats (QBR, DYAR, PFF) that you can average up and then verify with the eye test. If all of those put together convince you that Jones has been better than the 24th-26th range of QBs, then you are starting to squint very hard. We have 3-plus seasons of info verifying this outside of Jones' rookie year, where he did rank 18th in QB (but also poorly in DYAR and PFF)
Excellent post. Using Passer Rating just shows a lack of sophistication. Guess who else is currently in the top ten in Passer Rating? Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Carson Wentz.
Using more modern stats like QBR, Y/A, and ANY/A, Jones is currently ranked 27th, 24th and 23rd.
If anything, the team being 12-12 in Jones's last 24 starts makes you wonder how much better the record could be if Jones was a good QB.
I think it's not crazy to assume that if Gettleman had stuck to his initial interest in Herbert and waited until 2020 to draft him, the team wins the division in 2020, makes the playoffs in 2021 and Joe Judge is considered a great young coach lmao.
And it's not to say that the 20 or 21 Giants would've been great teams with Herbert, it's just that division was so weak that some improved QB play would've pushed the needle.
Those were the two biggest blunders, third was passing over Parsons. No one expects decision perfection, but this amateur called them out in real time so someone at the Meadowlands should've been able to.
What's great about it? The 2000 team and then 2003 led to one of the great decisions made by Wellington. TC had the full backing of Welly and TC made sure a repeat of that 2000 SB would never happen again. The foundation of those teams was all rooted in winning the lines and the physical battle.
Don't misread that 2011 team. Look closely at the playoffs and that physical element was on display. Plenty.
2012-till today was about first destroying and then never rebuilding the important foundation of what wins championships. Don't be like the fool who wanted both TC/Eli gone in 2012/13.
Look at the root causes of why the last decade has been so poor. It' clear as day.
We need better QB play. We also need to restore the proper foundation. Hope that JS/BD understand both elements will lead to another Lombardi.
The 2000 team failed bad because they were high on their own supply after 41-0. In the post-game speeches, Collins and Wellington were practically acting like they had already won the SB. Toomer has eluded also to the lack of preparation in the lead up to the SB. This isn't even accounting for the fact that the Ravens were an all-time defensive time that were unlikely to be beaten by anybody.
In summary, I don't think the issue of the 2000 team was the trenches. That team ran and pass-protected well. They stopped the run and rushed the passer. They simply were naive, unprepared, and got the breaks beaten off by an incredible D.
You do have a point however that the 2003 was an abject lesson in failing to try and build an o-line from castoffs, 7th round picks and undrafted FAs.
EA also realized that although Collins was a good QB, getting to the next level required a great QB. That's what I appreciate about EA in retrospect. The man never rested on his laurels when it came to the position.
We need better QB play. We still need a lot more talent and depth.
Just have to hope JS/BD come up with the best solution. Sometimes the team carries the QB more than the other way around. Both have had success. The team oriented one is by far the more successful winner in the debate especially when one evalutates the QB at the time of those SB's.
The Colts are a lesson on this. Couldn't nail the QB, then Nelson and a couple of guys get injured and they are no longer the same team.
QB's are not always found in the TOP 5 of the draft. Some of the better QB's are the ones that are the 2nd, 3rd or 4th option that year.
2017- Mahomes and Watson- two very good QB's and now 1 Superstar and 1 VERY good NFL QB's were taken 10th and 12th in the draft.
2018- Josh Allen was 8th (the 3rd QB taken) and jackson was the 32nd pick of the first rd.
More importantly though look at the # of high QB picks that have failed to live up to expectations and or flat out failed.
2010- Sam Bradford and Tim Tebow RD 1 Qb's- failed overall.
2011- Newton went #1, but Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder all went in the top half of RD 1.
2012- Luck and RgIII went 1 and 2 (RGIII due to injury never amounted to much) but after that Ryan Tannehill (a Jones comparison) and Brandon Weedon.
2013- EJ Manuel the only QB in RD1..
2014- Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel and Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy B is the only one even remotely successful.
2015- Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota went 1 and 2, but neither really lived up to the hype and expectation.
2016- Jared Goff and Carson Wentz went 1 and 2, then Paxton Lynch. Though Wentz and Goff went to the SB neither QB won the SB (Goff lost and Wentz was out) and both are on new teams with Wentz on his third team.
2017 and 2018 were covered above.
2019- saw Murray, Jones and Haskins. Jury out on Jones, Haskins flamed out in Washington, went to Pittsburgh as 3rd string and was killed this past offseason
2020- Now this group appears to be a stud group- Burrow, Tua and Herbert with Jordan Love getting an incomplete so far.
2021- Lawrence & Wilson went 1 and 2 (Lawrence started slower than expected and Wilson hasn't done much period), Trey Lance (49ers gave a ton for him and he sat most of last year, was given the reigns this year and loses game 1 and then is hurt lost for the season, Fields hasn't shown much yet and Mac Jones, who had the best rookie season results wise but will need help to be THE guy.
You have to be very careful that you don't just throw picks and the future away to get a position (QB) and really have to have the gut feeling on a specific player.
I would say game manager might not be bad if we sign on for a year or less if we do not have the ability to get OUR guy but we must avoid giving up a LOT just to get a POSITION!
Then again, some of the successes have been spectacular- Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow etc.
Forget the "gut feeling." This is how we ended up with Jones. The evaluation must be properly and dispassionately made- what is the arm talent? does the player have tools to go off script if the need arises (especially these days where the o-lines have to come together during the season because practice time is so limited)? Does the player process info quickly and have the confidence to let fly?
Yes, there is no sure thing, but you have to acknowledge when mistakes were made and move on and not perpetuate the mistake with hopes and dreams. That requires taking a risk with the most important position on the offense.
Rosen, Quinn, Darnau, Mayfield, Leaf, etc.
The field is littered with quarterbacks taken high in the draft. No guarantee we draft someone better than Jones and then wait two years to see if he is better. By that time Barkley is near the end of his career along with other giants.
If you want to compete now you either put the best supporting cast around Jones as you can or you go get an established quarterback of which there are none available better than Jones.
Nick Foles won a Superbowl. Jones is better than Foles.
Build up the team around Jones. Win as many games as you can. Once you have a good offensive line, receivers etc then trade up for someone you really like if Jones continues to be mediocre.
People want to get rid of Jones and just assume his drafted replacement will be better. Sorry folks it's not that easy.
This and JVM's post above are pretty much spot on. You look at the history of teams drafting QB's and it is littered with failures. Ultimately, we do not know what is going to happen with Jones. So far I think it would be fair to say he is a serviceable QB. He needs to get more comfortable in this system and improve along with the parts around him.
If he improves and the Giants finish around .500...I think it is going to be hard for the Giants to move on for a 'chance' at something that could be better...or a disaster.
Get luck drafting mid first and grabbing one
Filing 5-6 major holes at cb, ILB, IOL and another top wr and TE to surround jones like rams did with Goff in 2018?
I still would consider a Goff or jimmy G over jonesif they were FA with no comp due if we went that route
We got screwed with 2022 being a terrible year for quarterbacks in the draft.
That being said, I would not discount the the decent possibility of the Giants finding an upgrade to Daniel Jones in the middle of the 1st round of the 2023 NFL Draft.
I'd more discount it than bank on it, gun to head. You can try and make the argument that DJ isn't one of the better qbs in the league right now, but you'd lose. there aren't 16 QBs better than him. Again, you can make the argument, but you'd lose. Pretty sure coaches and pundits would put him in the top half.
As of this date, does DJ last past 16th qb picked in a fantasy football league? I doubt it.
People have this thing all warped with Jones. Starting snaps on your team are precious. You put some QBs under the big NFL lights and they rise to the occasion. They show exactly the opposite of what Jones has shown that maybe they were dinged for this or that reason but they get on the field and they seem to how to make plays. The Giants are doing literally the dumbest thing with their starting QB snaps, giving them to someone that has demonstrated zero aptitude for that and the overwhelming statistical evidence says you don't learn that.
Even if they miss on a rookie QB spending less money that you can use to bring in the supporting cast or bank for future years is of incredible value for ultimately building a contender. And maybe the most valuable part of drafting 1 or 2 QBs even outside of what you did with Jones where you over drafted him and gave him way to long of a look is that you can be quick with the hook. Everyone is always quick to point out that it's a big miss rate on QBs. Well do you know how to deal with that? Take a bunch of spins.
Because the jackpot is finding a QB that is good enough to win in the playoffs on a rookie deal. IMO the biggest problem with Jones is the willingness for so many, Mara especially to make excuses for him. Because the worst attitude to have is always, I need to get my QB, better receivers or OL or whatever the right attitude to have is does whatever team I have look better when we throw this guy behind center.
This Jones stat cherry picking by everyone is beyond odd. The numbers overwhelmingly say he's sub par and the eye test matches those numbers. Nobody is rushing to any conclusions on Jones in the modern era, someone that plays like he has tops out at Ryan Tannehill and how anyone could sign up for that CEILING for the life of me I can't understand.
I am not saying Foles sucks (well maybe lol), but he did those two things you mention above in offenses very new to the league:
-Chip Kelly offense
-RPO
Get luck drafting mid first and grabbing one
Filing 5-6 major holes at cb, ILB, IOL and another top wr and TE to surround jones like rams did with Goff in 2018?
I still would consider a Goff or jimmy G over jonesif they were FA with no comp due if we went that route
A lot of people don't want to hear it but Jimmy G - if you can get him at a reasonable rate - would be a perfect stopgap if there are no viable QB paths in the offseason and jones continues at his 24th best QB clip. In today's NFC, Jimmy is good for 10 wins and his advanced numbers have consistently put him as the 11th or 12th best QB in the league.