while he is a hot commodity.
This 900-word opinion piece went in a different direction than I was expecting since it morphs into a full-blown discussion about Daniel Jones. And I'm not sure I can do justice in conveying the essence of the argument, but here are a few tidbits:
(1) Giants could well be in the hunt for a play-off spot this season;
(2) Rather than be sellers, Joe Schoen should be in the market looking to upgrade his WR unit ASAP;
(3) Daniel Jones is completing over 70% of his passes; he's in the Top 10 for passer efficiency; he is 12-12 in last 24 starts; and the Giants will probably finish around .500 this season, which will give them about the 15th pick in the Draft;
(4) In other words, Giants are not going to find the next great QB at 15, and it is better to build around the pieces the Giants currently have -- including Saquon Barkley -- rather than trade away a ton of Draft capital to move way up to find a top QB.
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The call to trade Saquon Barkley (and/or cut ties with Daniel Jones after this season) has made its rounds on BBI. While I understand the logic, I believe BBIers are wrong insofar as they have fallen into a trap of "all or nothing" thinking.
In other words, BBIers are implicitly arguing: What's the use of building a roster if it can't ultimately bring home a Super Bowl trophy? But I don't fully buy into that perspective. The Giants have given us a decade of miserable football. In contrast, the Steelers, for example, had several strong play-off seasons, but fell short of winning the Super Bowl. I would have been very proud (and thoroughly enjoyed Giants football) had Big Blue delivered a "Steelers-like" performance over the past decade.
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Sean - its Mel Kiper, he is paid to pump up QB prospects. The facts are no one outside of Stroud and Young have looked good vs decent competition. Do you watch these games? Levis, Richardson, and Van Dyke have all underperformed thus far. Yes, Van Dyke didnt have his top WR, but he didnt look good and isnt very mobile (which seems to be a trait Daboll wants). And I want Van Dyke and Levis to be good so there are other options
People forget just how bad and limited this roster.
...
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Literally NO ONE is saying that "anyone they draft" is better than Jones, but here's the thing, we know what we have in Jones, we don't know what we would have with a guy drafted. Yes, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but sticking with Jones guarantees mediocrity.
And the "early returns" on Jones aren't good? He's in his 4th year, it is no longer early.
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In comment 15827473 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 15827285 ajr2456 said:
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But Engram has been good in Jacksonville, and seems to be one of Lawrence’s favorite targets
37 yards per game with zero TDs? Less than 7 yards per reception? Yeah, real good.
Agree. I’m having trouble seeing how he has been good, unless he’s been a third down machine for the jags
He might end up having a good year, but 6 catches for 38 yards average for the first two weeks does not stand out as good
Curious, what would you classify Daniel Jones as for the first two weeks?
I don’t think good is a bad description of Engram through two games, do you prefer solid?
Jones really has nothing to do with Engram anymore. Since you asked, I feel like Jones' stats are a bit hollow. I'm not impressed with them to be honest. Engram got a decent contract from the Jags, his production in the first two weeks is far from good in my eyes. Again, he may end up having a good year, but I do not consider averaging 6 catches for 38 yards with 0 tds good. I would say my statement about Engram's production is far less a stretch than saying he has been good.
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I agree. However, I can see the logic of a team passing on a quarterback that is just beginning a rebuild
I disagree. As you've noted, finding a good QB is hard, take one when you can. Deciding to get one after the rebuild has started is a poor decision, as you may start to win a few more games and take yourself out of the running for the top guys.
No problem, I get understand. You make a good point. The NFL has very few things that are cut and dry. So many variables prevent that.
I also only referenced the 12-12 record in the context that given that they've been .500 with Jones at QB over the past season and a half that he's been healthy it is not unreasonable to expect the Giants to win 7-8 games over the final 15 weeks, especially given their schedule, and end up with a mid-first round pick. And of course you can find the QB there, just the odds aren't very good. Indeed, for every Mahomes taken 10-15 there's also a bunch of busts like Rosen, Haskins, Manuel, Ponder and Gabbert.
The odds aren't going to get much better sitting on their ass hoping with Jones either while his pay goes up.
First round QBs can have success but obivusly nothing is a gurantee, even a #1 overall pick. But that doesn't mean you don't do your evals and still try to figure it out, and maybe make a move if you see your guy in striking distance.
And it's 11-13 over Jones' last 24 starts...
People forget just how bad and limited this roster.
They could easily be 0-2 right now. I don't believe what we've seen in weeks 1 and 2 is going to sustain a winning pace
Is this in reply to me?
If this Giants team finishes anywhere above a .500 record this season, then the staff from top to bottom will have done one hell of a coaching job!
Amen to that.
I think a lot of people are seeing the Jones situation as you are. He needs to play better but I think BD/MK are smart enough to see the flaws on offense. They have to determine how much is Jones versus the elements around him imv.
Thanks for your contributions.
Does he see and throw to the open man on time?
Nope.
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but the Jones Sucks people think ANYONE they draft will be better than Jones - and that just isnt the case
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Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Literally NO ONE is saying that "anyone they draft" is better than Jones, but here's the thing, we know what we have in Jones, we don't know what we would have with a guy drafted. Yes, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but sticking with Jones guarantees mediocrity.
And the "early returns" on Jones aren't good? He's in his 4th year, it is no longer early.
Yes, every Jones Sucks person has been saying that anyone would be better at QB
And I meant early returns for this season
And I meant early returns for this season
So you're willing to ignore the previous 3 years of poor play by Jones, but have already decided all of the college QB's suck after 3 games? Good to know.
That's Jones to a "T"
And its known as "hell" because you waste years as a franchise trying to remake the club so the QB can succeed. But he never will.
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And I meant early returns for this season
So you're willing to ignore the previous 3 years of poor play by Jones, but have already decided all of the college QB's suck after 3 games? Good to know.
You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
Even if you're willing to give Jones a pass on his first 3 years, and acknowledge that the "early returns" on this season aren't great, you have no problem deciding that none of the college QB's are good enough after [checks schedule] 3 games.
Good to know.
Are we saying all this college coaches are the best coaches in the world with systems that make their QB look good and don’t hinder them?
Does he see and throw to the open man on time?
Nope.
Thanks for boiling it into a nutshell. This is the foundation talent of every good QB, (I like the “on time” part.)
Not in the DJFC but those who keep using could probably use a revaluation of how they see the game imv.
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
Are we saying all this college coaches are the best coaches in the world with systems that make their QB look good and don’t hinder them?
He definitely has not been in a good situation up to now, and his 12-12 record is not really that bad considering those circumstances.
But, this team is better, they are 2-0 mostly because of defense and their running game. He has made plays contributing to those victories, but he has to do more; I think he will.
But if the decision had to be made right now about next season, I agree they would move on.
Scroll up one post above yours for the archetype.
For real. I’m a huge Van Dyke guy. Would LOVE him to be the next QB here.
Then scroll one down from your 3:04 for the counter. Pretty close to getting good assessment of the situation.
If we finish at around .500 for the season it puts us in a really bad spot for a QB. I guess the how we got to that point would have to be in discussion. Did Jones play well or did something else happen? He as not played well, I would say average and we are sitting at 2-0. What would be the discussion if he lit it up yet we were 0-2?
I think if we are in the middle of the pack at the end of the season its a real tough spot to get a draftable QB. Cost is way to high in the draft so FA or trade would be the best option. We are 2-0 without 2 of our top 3 draft picks and the 3rd isnt exactly helping us at this point. Its too early to make any hard decisions on players for next year. Trading Barkley would probably take the wind out of the sails a bit right now and send a bad message. We will know by week 10 the real direction for Jones next season. Id like to worry about being 3-0 on Tuesday. Imagine how good that would be even if Jones plays terrible.
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to figure out who exactly is in this DJ Fan club. From what I can tell posters seem to use it as a diss for anyone they think is defending Daniel Jones whether they really are or not. I guess one's membership is fluid, depending on who you are having a conversation with at the moment.
Scroll up one post above yours for the archetype.
The guy who did the post above Chris,I have on good authority, is pretty much a Giants fan; far as I can tell, most people who come here are.
There are some though, such as yourself, who often seem salty with those of differing opinions from their own, that s ok too.
Although I must admit to a lack of understanding why any support shown towards this quarterback riles you so
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
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Am I reading this right? The argument is that if we draft a QB high, they might be a bust, so we should keep the high first round bust we have at QB?
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
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In comment 15827778 bw in dc said:
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
Plenty of people see the physical skills of the other QB's you listed. Their concern is that they seem to all have issues that could make them be a highly drafted bust in the NFL (Levis and Richardson seem most pronounced in that area). Being a QB is not solely about physical skills.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
I would never downplay the ability to process the game. It's a big variable. But just because you see the game, doesn't mean you can execute the next part - the delivery. The throw.
Furthermore, it is impossible to know if someone who can process the game at the college game can do the same at the pro game. And that's because the next level is much more sophisticated (scheme wise) and better athletes everywhere. In other words, you don't know if that will convey.
However, the physical skills almost always convey. If a QB is tall and thick that - obviously - conveys. If a QB is mobile, that should convey. If a QB has a great arm, that should convey. If a QB is an overall great athlete, that should convey. Etc.
Give me the physical attributes and I will leave it in the hands of the coaches to develop and teach.
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Am I reading this right? The argument is that if we draft a QB high, they might be a bust, so we should keep the high first round bust we have at QB?
You go for a QB in the draft for the same reason they didn't have Tyrod start. Coming into this year, Tyrod had a 0% chance of being a franchise QB. Jones has a non-zero chance of being a franchise QB. By the end of the year, it will likely be that Jones has a 0% chance of being a franchise QB and a rookie will have a non-zero chance
You are mostly reading it right - yes.
The most recent twist, however, seems to be that unless we get one of the top two in the 2023 class - Young or Stroud - it's worthless to consider anyone else in the 2023.
Which tells you a couple of things. Those in that camp think too highly of Young. And those in that camp are unable to see the terrific physical skills of other prospects outside of Young and Stroud, like Levis, Hooker, McCall, Van Dyke, Richardson, Ward, etc.
When all you have to brag about are their physical skills, it means they cant throw it well enough, cant read defenses, and do most of their work by running it after their one read is covered
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You mean the 3 seasons with the worst OL, WRs, and offensive coordinator in the league?
Im judging him on this season
Early returns means as of now. I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit
Even if you're willing to give Jones a pass on his first 3 years, and acknowledge that the "early returns" on this season aren't great, you have no problem deciding that none of the college QB's are good enough after [checks schedule] 3 games.
Good to know.
I said early returns for the college QBs also. Reading comprehension
I was wondering today if not getting that 5th year option has put even more pressure on Jones; and that's manifesting itself in his play where he's either (1) unable to pull the trigger (for fear of making a mistake) or (2) his inability to process is even more pronounced.
Certainly something to keep a eye on.
Absolutely. Jones was incredible that game. Never have seen that side of him since. He has some nice plays here and there and he’s managed some nice games, but the 2019 Tampa game he put the offense on his back.
I linked his highlights from that first Tampa game, that QB does not exist anymore. Maybe there is something to the fact that Judge/Garrett coached a lot of potential explosiveness out of him.
Link - ( New Window )
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Sean, one could argue-& I would-that Jones' debut vs. the Bucs was the highwater mark of his time here.
Absolutely. Jones was incredible that game. Never have seen that side of him since. He has some nice plays here and there and he’s managed some nice games, but the 2019 Tampa game he put the offense on his back.
I linked his highlights from that first Tampa game, that QB does not exist anymore. Maybe there is something to the fact that Judge/Garrett coached a lot of potential explosiveness out of him. Link - ( New Window )
Maybe it's Slayton that doesn't exist anymore.
And if you recall that Bucs team had dismal pass defense.
Swiss cheese.
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Yes, but having those physical skills have never been more important than the NFL as the current game has greater demand for mobility and athleticism at the QB position.
The most important thing needed in a QB is his mind. Hands down 100%. Physical traits is a part of it but that is secondary to what is upstairs. His toughness, his ability to handle pressure, ability to play big at the most important times, to make decisions under duress. This is what you need from a QB on a rookie contract.
Now if one of these college QB's have some of this then the Giants should pounce.
"those in the Young camp thing too highly". O'Brien said his processing reminds him of Brady. Jim Klatt said he is the smartest QB he has ever evaluated on film. There is so much more out there on him. His size is a concern. Giants should be looking for a lot of these checkmarks in all the QB's coming out.
One thing I agree about is athletic skills. Someone who can maneuver the pocket with a occasional run is more than enough if you build the right type of team. One of the big tells with college QB's is look for the ones who flee the pocket too quickly. That is most likely a processing issue and in the NFL it will not translate with the same success.
I would never downplay the ability to process the game. It's a big variable. But just because you see the game, doesn't mean you can execute the next part - the delivery. The throw.
Furthermore, it is impossible to know if someone who can process the game at the college game can do the same at the pro game. And that's because the next level is much more sophisticated (scheme wise) and better athletes everywhere. In other words, you don't know if that will convey.
However, the physical skills almost always convey. If a QB is tall and thick that - obviously - conveys. If a QB is mobile, that should convey. If a QB has a great arm, that should convey. If a QB is an overall great athlete, that should convey. Etc.
Give me the physical attributes and I will leave it in the hands of the coaches to develop and teach.
The problem is someone like Richardson has had plenty of coaching and has not made a lot of strides as a passer. I question if guys like him and Malik Willis have the intellect to be an NFL QB. Josh Allen is a name that is thrown out a lot, but his college coaching was atrocious. You could see he had the intellect, but the mechanics were very rudimentary.
Orlovsky - ( New Window )
Coaching can only do so much, 21 year olds need to be in game action