while he is a hot commodity.
This 900-word opinion piece went in a different direction than I was expecting since it morphs into a full-blown discussion about Daniel Jones. And I'm not sure I can do justice in conveying the essence of the argument, but here are a few tidbits:
(1) Giants could well be in the hunt for a play-off spot this season;
(2) Rather than be sellers, Joe Schoen should be in the market looking to upgrade his WR unit ASAP;
(3) Daniel Jones is completing over 70% of his passes; he's in the Top 10 for passer efficiency; he is 12-12 in last 24 starts; and the Giants will probably finish around .500 this season, which will give them about the 15th pick in the Draft;
(4) In other words, Giants are not going to find the next great QB at 15, and it is better to build around the pieces the Giants currently have -- including Saquon Barkley -- rather than trade away a ton of Draft capital to move way up to find a top QB.
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The call to trade Saquon Barkley (and/or cut ties with Daniel Jones after this season) has made its rounds on BBI. While I understand the logic, I believe BBIers are wrong insofar as they have fallen into a trap of "all or nothing" thinking.
In other words, BBIers are implicitly arguing: What's the use of building a roster if it can't ultimately bring home a Super Bowl trophy? But I don't fully buy into that perspective. The Giants have given us a decade of miserable football. In contrast, the Steelers, for example, had several strong play-off seasons, but fell short of winning the Super Bowl. I would have been very proud (and thoroughly enjoyed Giants football) had Big Blue delivered a "Steelers-like" performance over the past decade.
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The problem is someone like Richardson has had plenty of coaching and has not made a lot of strides as a passer. I question if guys like him and Malik Willis have the intellect to be an NFL QB. Josh Allen is a name that is thrown out a lot, but his college coaching was atrocious. You could see he had the intellect, but the mechanics were very rudimentary.
Despite some very appealing physical skills, Richardson is playing himself into the 2024 class. There is a lot of fat in that game to trim to - potentially - get to a filet mignon.
As bad as he's played this year, I don't know if he would even be drafted next year as a QB in 2023. Maybe late day three - at best.
Look, you have to also have production to compliment the metrics. And he's got nothing there this year - yet.
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Sean, one could argue-& I would-that Jones' debut vs. the Bucs was the highwater mark of his time here.
And if you recall that Bucs team had dismal pass defense.
Swiss cheese.
It was, but Jones looked so comfortable in the pocket and not robotic. To christian’s credit while we were all bashing Shurmur, he was the one who pointed out the potential consequences with losing his offensive system.
Now, I do think Jones rookie season was a bit overrated (turnovers and a lot of stats coming against bad teams, NYJ & WFT). But, there is no question Shurmur was better for Jones than Judge/Garrett.
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In comment 15827138 Klaatu said:
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Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the best QB you can find? If that includes trading Barkley, go for it.
because any QB still has to be part of a team, and if you sacrificed everything to get the best qb available ( who my not even be a future hall of famer) and he has no line, or you have no receivers, it doesn't make a difference.
You make extremist statements as if they are truism but if questioned you'll offer all sort of qualifications and assumptions that there isn't actually room for within the strict parameters of the statements you make.
That is to say, it's rather obvious why you wouldn't do everything possible to get the best available QB. It could ruin your franchise. There are a great many things that are possible to do to get a qb that either cost more than they are worth or cripple a franchises ability to field an effective, or possibly even competent team.
Beyond that, there is no guarantee the player even gives you your moneys worth. You can trade all your draft picks for the next superstar who turns out to be Ryan Leaf and your fucked for years, so, lot's and lot's of reasons why you wouldn't do "anything". it's a throwaway remark, not some truism.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, therefore I can't imagine it's of any importance. However, I did get a chuckle out of your 'extremist statements" line and my alleged responses to them when challenged. I'm wondering if you have a red backdrop to go along with your red right hand? It wouldn't surprise me if you did. Seems fitting.
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
The point isn't jones is good, I could care less about jones actually, and expect to move on from him next year, or the year after more likely. The point was you don't wreck your team and compromise your future to get a QB who may or may not be better. Get a better QB, sure. Make it a priority, sure.NP with that.
Jones is mediocre.You don't need to mortgage your future to reach for a mediocre QB. We already did that with Jones,in case y'all missed that, and wasted a 4th on a guy then never should have gone that high to begin with. We don't need to repeat the process cause we hate Jones. It's just stupid. Get the guy you really want when it makes sense to do it, not "at any price" like a bunch of panicked morons or sulky babies. That's the point.
Good clip. That s a concern. Year s of getting hit , turning the ball over, have had their impact on him. We ll see if that changes as year moves on.
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but the Jones Sucks people think ANYONE they draft will be better than Jones - and that just isnt the case
Arizona had the 1st overall pick, fired their coaches, and hired a guy perfect for a QB (Murray) that happened to be in the draft that year. Thats why they abandoned Rosen so fast - everything worked out perfectly
Yes, if the Giants had pick 1 or 2 next year, they would let Jones walk and draft Stroud or Young - but that doesnt look very likely
My position has always been that it COULD be that Jones is the best option next season. And this article agrees
Are the early returns good for Jones, not really. Are the early returns good for a QB drafted around 15th next year being a franchise guy, not really
Good post.
The point isn't jones is good, I could care less about jones actually, and expect to move on from him next year, or the year after more likely. The point was you don't wreck your team and compromise your future to get a QB who may or may not be better. Get a better QB, sure. Make it a priority, sure.NP with that.
Jones is mediocre.You don't need to mortgage your future to reach for a mediocre QB. We already did that with Jones,in case y'all missed that, and wasted a 4th on a guy then never should have gone that high to begin with. We don't need to repeat the process cause we hate Jones. It's just stupid. Get the guy you really want when it makes sense to do it, not "at any price" like a bunch of panicked morons or sulky babies. That's the point.
Of course you don't shop desperate. That is what kept getting Gettleman in trouble with both free agency and draft, including the Jones pick. I also don't read any large groups of posters suggesting the NYG do so either. Yes to being very interested in what can be done at QB in this next draft, but not at all costs.
And this comment made above though is somewhat obtuse-
Jones has been starting games since Sept 2019 so referring to that timeline as "early returns" is nonsense. He has had many starting chances to display his skills and the only thing it accomplished thus far is the organization passing on his 5th year option, signing a veteran to a 2-year deal and making him a lame duck QB in 2022.
And just standardizing any QB picked in the middle of Rd 1 (around 15th) as being average at best is just being short-sighted. Way too many variables that go into whether a guy will be succcessful at the NFL level after being picked in all of round one, no less 15th. And the college season is also so early at this point, so really need to couch that statement until next offseason and these QBs have been put under more of a microscope.
As for the college QBs not named Stroud/Young, early returns means just that - how they have looked so far. And it aint good
As for the college QBs not named Stroud/Young, early returns means just that - how they have looked so far. And it aint good
Got it. Though still doesn't feel like either is portraying an accurate picture of the current situation. The clock on Daniel Jones in NY is running out while the college QBs have everything in front of them.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
You are better off looking at it like, this is a crapshoot, let's find a way to get as many chances at it as possible. Also, in what way are we calling Jones mediocre? Didn't we look at all the advanced stats and pretty much see he was below average if not close to the bottom?
In any kind of asset management the biggest mistake you can make is hoping something will change it's performance pattern. You need discipline to get out of bad things quickly and a willingness to churn in new assets and new ideas, this isn't complicated. What complicates it is people like our friends DG and Mara literally catching feelings for the assets. That clouds your judgement and it happens here too. Wanting to keep Jones with what he's shown on the field means you are using determinations other than his on field play to generate that perspective
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
Jones only has 1 INT, so only 8.5 INT's. I assume you meant total turnovers.
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I know this is an unpopular take (I'm very neutral on Jones btw) -- but I think Schoen will regret declining Jones's 5th year option.
I was really surprised he didn't. Given the state of the offense and all the new pieces, I figured they'd give him 2 years to prove it.
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
Jones only has 1 INT, so only 8.5 INT's. I assume you meant total turnovers.
Yup, thanks Brett.
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In comment 15828321 christian said:
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Keeping Jones means doing something. They wouldn't be cutting him -- he's a free agent and they'd need to come to terms or franchise tag him at 31.5M.
I think many of us agree Jones is off to a pedestrian start. Projected over 17 games Jones is pacing towards a 26TD/17INT 3100 YDS. If players like Prescott and Cousins are meh -- Jones is actually pretty bad, right?
That would not be good, particularly the INTs. I can live with 26 TD's but only at a much lower turnover rate.
Cousins/Dak are weird arguments but I think a lot of it is because what they are paid. I'd take either on my team but not at those prices. Jones certainly falls into that category especially at $31.5m but even if that did happen its a 1 year rental and they'd still be able to draft a QB if the unexpected opportunity presented itself in the draft (don't think we are drafting top 3).
I know this is an unpopular take (I'm very neutral on Jones btw) -- but I think Schoen will regret declining Jones's 5th year option.
I was really surprised he didn't. Given the state of the offense and all the new pieces, I figured they'd give him 2 years to prove it.
Its possible although I think Schoen has a good idea of his worth is and that he's probably fine letting him walk if Jones doesn't take a market rate deal, something like 2/$25m-$30m with lower end guarantees, if he even offers one. Schoen may just want a clean slate so whatever Jones' cost is in 2023 could be completely irrelevant.
There are a bunch of UFA QB's that are going to be starting some or the bulk of their teams games this year, he can find a cheap option in a pinch if Jones isn't wanted or won't accept a cheaper deal.
Jones, Bridgewater, Mayfield, Darnold, Brissett, Geno Smith, etc. Jimmy G and Lamar Jackson are wildcards so i'm not including them as I think the franchise tag will be in play for both (especially if there's something more going on with Trey Lance and his injury).
There are a bunch of UFA QB's that are going to be starting some or the bulk of their teams games this year, he can find a cheap option in a pinch if Jones isn't wanted or won't accept a cheaper deal.
I agree with a lot of that. I think ultimately they draft a rookie and go with Taylor (their usual suspect).
The bottom end starter market is just so weird. There's only one player in the 15M range, Winston. You either have guys in the back up/rookie range at 10M or less. Then it really jumps to 30M (Brady makes 25M but that's an outlier).
Practically, I don't think Jones would accept a 2-year deal. Especially if he has an OK season and stays healthy. He'd be better off taking a 1-year prove it deal and get back to UFA.
If Jones has a pretty good year I'd understand if they keep him for 1/22M. I sure hope they don't franchise him.
Jones, Bridgewater, Mayfield, Darnold, Brissett, Geno Smith, etc. Jimmy G and Lamar Jackson are wildcards so i'm not including them as I think the franchise tag will be in play for both (especially if there's something more going on with Trey Lance and his injury).
Jimmy G can't be tagged, it's in the contract he just signed.
Agree on both counts. Jimmy G would be little more than a placeholder until a franchise QB is in place, Lamar is another story entirely.