He was referencing Daboll s presser where Daboll stated that Daniel s decision making has been very good.
Papa then went on to suggest that there are times where Jones is going through his progressions properly and a receiver might be open but ran an incorrect route.
I have never taken a snap under center, but as a one time HS official I could see even at that level things happen very quickly; one could only imagine how fast the NFL game is.
Serious question. If a receiver is open, off script, is the quarterback at fault for not seeing him if he is making the proper progressions?
I understand time allowed in pocket is a factor, and to be fair I see elite quarterbacks miss open receivers from time to time
Carl Banks went on to add that even knowledgeable people with access to the all 22, without knowing what play was called often come to incorrect conclusions
Just give it time. As long as he is improving and the coaching staff is happy, then so be it.
He hedged a bit and then said that it would depend upon what type of offense a team was running.
He said that some teams prefer a QB to execute the play that was called and not adlib, while other teams preferred a QB who could make something happen when the play breaks down.
Sticking with the QB labels from this thread, Cosell chose Josh Rosen as the best "on-script" QB and Josh Allen as the best "off-script" QB.
Why bring this up? Because I think Jones is an on-script QB and the type that was preferred by the old regime, while the current GM, HC and OC all likely prefer an off-script QB who can make things happen, like Allen and Mahomes.
We’ve faced a couple of tough fronts. Cowboys aren’t on that level but they do have Parsons.
SO there was one play where SS runs a corner route to the end zone; however, if the play called for him to run a post or deep slant, I don't know that that is "off script" or how DJ can anticipate that. Again, I don't know whether that is what occurred on that particular play or any of the other five or so "misses" from Sunday, but between Daboll saying that Jones is making the right decisions and what Papa/Banks are saying, I'd venture that the number of misses we think we are seeing are less
We've got to be able to run the ball. Sunday it came late. It'd be nice to start strong this week.
He hedged a bit and then said that it would depend upon what type of offense a team was running.
He said that some teams prefer a QB to execute the play that was called and not adlib, while other teams preferred a QB who could make something happen when the play breaks down.
Sticking with the QB labels from this thread, Cosell chose Josh Rosen as the best "on-script" QB and Josh Allen as the best "off-script" QB.
Why bring this up? Because I think Jones is an on-script QB and the type that was preferred by the old regime, while the current GM, HC and OC all likely prefer an off-script QB who can make things happen, like Allen and Mahomes.
Off script is more a play breaks down and the QB scrambles and the receivers adjust their routes. Off script is not a WR runs the wrong route called for on a particular play.
Where is the excuse in the OP? Its a legit question, one that only Daboll can answer. Is Daboll answering honestly or is he saying what he needs to say to keep Jones' confidence high? I don't know. But we will have a better idea after the season when Jones is either let go or retained.
What good is your post?
The idea that no one, anywhere, has the qualifications to understand what goes on during Giants passing snaps is a backhanded way of picking at the credibility of anyone but the head coach.
Can the Giants win games with Jones? yes, they obviously can.
Are the Giants winning games because of Jones? I would say it is safe to assume that the Giants have NOT won because of him.
Is Jones the long term (and by that I mean 3 - 4 years) answer at QB for the Giants? I would say it is safe to assume that answer is a NO but, he might be for another year or two.
Overall, we have a quarterback that can play in the NFL but, is really borderline in terms of being a starter you want leading your team to victories vs managing a game so you don't lose.
That might just have to be good enough for the very near future.
This "its always because Jones sucks" monologues are getting tiring and ruin almost every thread.
The idea that no one, anywhere, has the qualifications to understand what goes on during Giants passing snaps is a backhanded way of picking at the credibility of anyone but the head coach.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they see but are you asserting that fans on a message board are as credible as the head coach?
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as well as sound fundamentals and decision making.
SO there was one play where SS runs a corner route to the end zone; however, if the play called for him to run a post or deep slant, I don't know that that is "off script" or how DJ can anticipate that. Again, I don't know whether that is what occurred on that particular play or any of the other five or so "misses" from Sunday, but between Daboll saying that Jones is making the right decisions and what Papa/Banks are saying, I'd venture that the number of misses we think we are seeing are less
In the modern NFL, most play calls contain option routes, and it's on the QB and WRs to read coverage/leverage and be on the same page in order to be successful (and eliminate self-inflicted mistakes). Hard to know exactly what they calls are at all times without knowing the concepts, but if you understand the coverage/leverage and can see the route combos it's not always an unknown.
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At one point are we allowed to conclude that he has arrived at his ceiling, this is it, he's a mechanical qb, not capable of going off script and the ceiling just isn't very high?
Lol...yeah...Carl Banks and Bob Papa are "making excuses".
We get it, you love Bob because he mentioned you on air, but if you don't think Banks and Papa occasionally carry some water for Giants PR, you're kidding yourself. They're not quite Dottino, but they're far from unbiased.
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In comment 15827238 JonC said:
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as well as sound fundamentals and decision making.
SO there was one play where SS runs a corner route to the end zone; however, if the play called for him to run a post or deep slant, I don't know that that is "off script" or how DJ can anticipate that. Again, I don't know whether that is what occurred on that particular play or any of the other five or so "misses" from Sunday, but between Daboll saying that Jones is making the right decisions and what Papa/Banks are saying, I'd venture that the number of misses we think we are seeing are less
In the modern NFL, most play calls contain option routes, and it's on the QB and WRs to read coverage/leverage and be on the same page in order to be successful (and eliminate self-inflicted mistakes). Hard to know exactly what they calls are at all times without knowing the concepts, but if you understand the coverage/leverage and can see the route combos it's not always an unknown.
Agreed and certainly on the exampl I gave, considering where the safety was shading, it looks like SS ran the correct route.
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"We don't really know what's going on, and you can't trust anything except what the coach says in press conferences", is wonderfully unhelpful, because a head coach isn't supposed to say anything.
The idea that no one, anywhere, has the qualifications to understand what goes on during Giants passing snaps is a backhanded way of picking at the credibility of anyone but the head coach.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they see but are you asserting that fans on a message board are as credible as the head coach?
No. However, it's also not just 'fans on a message board' making these observations.
NFL offense isn't some alien language that requires the rosetta stone to understand. It's not smashing the atom, and you don't need a navajo codetalker to be qualified to have an opinion.
The Giants don't score points and don't have productive wide receivers under daniel jones since 2019. Opposing defenses have played to shut down the run and dared Jones to make plays with his arm since 2019. I can't continue to hear that he's doing things well, and the open WRs on film, when they do get open, are probably the ones doing it wrong.
Its very system dependent and to your comment about officiating at the HS level, no I don't expect QBs at a certain level to find those open WRs and get it there. So in one aspect, yes, a WR running the wrong route makes it difficult on the QB even if he gets open.
The counter point to that argument would be that the elite NFL QBs now ad lib and excel at making off script plays. To go further, the last QB Daboll coached did this an awful lot, as did the last one Kafka coached.
Within this you may see the difference between Jones having the ceiling of an average QB vs the ceiling of a high end elite player.
There’s a huge difference of plays getting designed to run a certain way from the pocket and then off script where the WRs start to come back to the ball and find the holes. You literally can’t expect QBs to make reads from the pocket of WRs are running the wrong routes.
By the way something I see a lot of when fans are analyzing any QB, is that they think players are open when in fact its too late. For example the QB looks at progression #1 and he is covered enough that the QB looks at #2 and throws there. The Safety is reading the QB's eyes and when he looks away from #1, he starts drifting towards where he is looking now. Now the WR looks fairly open, but its too late and only because the safety moved off a little.
These are the things Daboll will know and we do not. Its a split second thing. Personally as long as Jones is completing the pass somewhere I am mostly happy with the decision.
It also delays the progressions if you are number 2 on a certain play and are not where the QB’s eyes are trained to look.
Having said that, receivers and QBs are often making reads based on the coverage. If they read the coverage differently, the receiver may get open based on a correct read, but the QB does not seem him because he read it differently. Only the coaches and players can probably explain who was correct when watching the film.
Now if you are talking about a play breaking down and the QB is out of the pocket? The QB has to scan the field to find someone open because as Jon C said, there is typically a structure to what the receivers should be doing.
Here's a simple example. Let's say the offense is running a hitch/corner route. The defense shows cover 2. The QB will read the corner. If the corner drops then he throws the hitch. If the corner bites then he throws the corner route. The QB is reading the defense first then the receivers. If Jones is ready to let the ball go but the receiver isn't in the right location then that is a big problem.
This is where coaching is difficult. I would tell my players all the time, do your job. If the QBs job is to throw the corner then throw it. If the receiver isn't there then I only have to correct 1 player. However, if the QB doesn't throw it then I now need to make two corrections.
No.
Those who play QB and win super bowl MVP see those players and complete those passes. They seize those opportunities and capitalize on them. The consensus is Daniel jones is not such a QB. They call those true franchise QBs. They can help overcome other deficiencies within the organization.
I would imagine that there are a lot of talented WRs who simply can't do that play to play.
This offense needs time and will need more talent. Barkley has improved, the WRs have not. The OL is a roller coaster of good and bad. Seems to me that regardless of anything the WRs and the QB are not all on the same page. It will get better over time hopefully but maybe thats why certain WRs are only getting a few snaps. If our main WRs are going to be Shep, James and Sills its going to be tough to get the passing O to even average. The OL will improve but those WRs are what they are. If we dont get Toney more involved it doesnt matter how good or bad Jones is, the WRs can be shut down with basic coverage.
Here's a simple example. Let's say the offense is running a hitch/corner route. The defense shows cover 2. The QB will read the corner. If the corner drops then he throws the hitch. If the corner bites then he throws the corner route. The QB is reading the defense first then the receivers. If Jones is ready to let the ball go but the receiver isn't in the right location then that is a big problem.
This is where coaching is difficult. I would tell my players all the time, do your job. If the QBs job is to throw the corner then throw it. If the receiver isn't there then I only have to correct 1 player. However, if the QB doesn't throw it then I now need to make two corrections.
Great post Robbie. It's the thing that drives me nuts with the arguments pointing out open receivers. It's not realistic in the NFL for back of the hand drawn plays where the QB is running around looking for open receivers. The QB (assuming) he knows the playbook is looking at the defense pre AND post snap and then looking to spots where the receiver(s) should be. If the QB is correct but the WR is not, it doesn't matter how wide open they look to us.
They have zero incentive to tell you what they really think.
That response drive after Carolina scored their TD, Jones not only went off script but he made at least 2 pinpoint, very high quality throws. But that drive was the only time in the game he came close to doing anything like that. I don't get it.
He shows glimpses, but glimpses are ok after 1, maybe 2 years. By year 4 we need more than glimpses.
Even with the fumbles I say the best we've seen from Jones so far was 2019 under Shurmur. A few games here and there in 2020 come to mind. If I recall correctly he was playing pretty well before he got hurt in Cincy, and perhaps the New Orleans game last year.
But why wouldn't you expect Jones ot be an enigma?
Other than eleite QBs's who owuldn't be an engima if they have the folwoing?
1-- Lousy coaching.
2-- Lousy Offensive Line
3-- Lousy WR's
4-- Lousy Tight Ends
5--- And a RB that is always hurt.
So this year is a good year to evaluate it all so far. Because he seems to have a healthy RB. and maybe not a pathetic OL though his receivers suck- let's see how much better he performs. But if you are not elite- and your other positions are flawed and have been highly flawed prior, then why wouldn't you expect an enigma?
With so many flaws surrounding him -- for argument sake if we say he is average - then ofc he is going to be an enigma when everything surrounding him has been bad up until this point.
They have zero incentive to tell you what they really think.
Generic coach speak, you might be correct. Specifically identifying decision making more than likely means he s pleased with that aspect of Daniel s game.
Just as a reality check, Richie James, Sterling Shepard and Saquon Barkley have combined for 37 targets.
The next highest total on the team is 4. And it's David Sills.
As a wait and see'r, I'm not very impressed so far this year. But there's zero question he again is saddled with a subpar group of skill players, and for the 4th consecutive year he does not have a #1.
Here's a simple example. Let's say the offense is running a hitch/corner route. The defense shows cover 2. The QB will read the corner. If the corner drops then he throws the hitch. If the corner bites then he throws the corner route. The QB is reading the defense first then the receivers. If Jones is ready to let the ball go but the receiver isn't in the right location then that is a big problem.
This is where coaching is difficult. I would tell my players all the time, do your job. If the QBs job is to throw the corner then throw it. If the receiver isn't there then I only have to correct 1 player. However, if the QB doesn't throw it then I now need to make two corrections.
This is 100% correct, and is also why just rewatching a play in slo-motion and complaining about an "open" receiver isn't how Daboll is judging things. Read the D, then make the decision where to go first. That is what they want the QB, and QB, to do.
This is distinct from ad-libbing during a scramble drill; when that happens the receivers are looking back at the QB and know when the ball is coming out. If the receiver is running, say, a go when the QB is expecting and out, he isn't looking back.
as far as Barkley, if he has a great year, then sign him to something acceptable, or franchise him if he doesn't want to. if he gets [seriously] injured again, then let him go as free agent or veterans minimum.
Just as a reality check, Richie James, Sterling Shepard and Saquon Barkley have combined for 37 targets.
The next highest total on the team is 4. And it's David Sills.
As a wait and see'r, I'm not very impressed so far this year. But there's zero question he again is saddled with a subpar group of skill players, and for the 4th consecutive year he does not have a #1.
I agree. In the long run I think the defense is playing way over it's head. And Barkley is going ot be more and more over-the-top focus for opposing defenses.
But let's see if week-to-week how the young players on the OL progress along with Toney or Robinson giving any type of hope and for the fun of it- see if they can "take this game."
But some really good football people here are missing putting some pieces together.
1.) Some WRs are sitting because through lack of practice/prep, they do not know the route trees
2.) Daboll is seen yelling at the WRs on the sideline Sunday saying - do your jobs
3.) Shepard comes out and states flat out WRs are not making the right decisions aka, wrong routes
4.) Jones has had the reset WRs pre-snap on several plays per game
5.) Jones seems to have rapport with only Shep, James and Sills (why is that?)
6.) There are probably "open" WRs on every play in every game
I will reiterate, I think Jones will not be here after this year and is not "the guy." He seems unwilling to just trust what he sees.
But if you read SY's report, even he seems to not be sure if Jones is "not seeing/too slow seeing" the field or just not willing to throw into tight windows - and that is a professional scout.
Totally agree about the confidence thing. That comes with success. It is why I m not certain we ve seen the best of Jones yet, and why there is still a chance we might.
Here's a simple example. Let's say the offense is running a hitch/corner route. The defense shows cover 2. The QB will read the corner. If the corner drops then he throws the hitch. If the corner bites then he throws the corner route. The QB is reading the defense first then the receivers. If Jones is ready to let the ball go but the receiver isn't in the right location then that is a big problem.
This is where coaching is difficult. I would tell my players all the time, do your job. If the QBs job is to throw the corner then throw it. If the receiver isn't there then I only have to correct 1 player. However, if the QB doesn't throw it then I now need to make two corrections.
What I highlighted in bold is what Manning did under Coughlin's/Gilbride's offense. Manning was letting it go to where he thought the ball should go whether the receiver read the defense correctly or not. And I agree, that is what should be done.
But some really good football people here are missing putting some pieces together.
1.) Some WRs are sitting because through lack of practice/prep, they do not know the route trees
2.) Daboll is seen yelling at the WRs on the sideline Sunday saying - do your jobs
3.) Shepard comes out and states flat out WRs are not making the right decisions aka, wrong routes
4.) Jones has had the reset WRs pre-snap on several plays per game
5.) Jones seems to have rapport with only Shep, James and Sills (why is that?)
6.) There are probably "open" WRs on every play in every game
I will reiterate, I think Jones will not be here after this year and is not "the guy." He seems unwilling to just trust what he sees.
But if you read SY's report, even he seems to not be sure if Jones is "not seeing/too slow seeing" the field or just not willing to throw into tight windows - and that is a professional scout.
+1.
And yet we have a few posters with absolutely no understanding of all of this and just post over and over and over bashing Jones. It seems from too many they think only one position in football counts. And because Jones is not "Joe Burrow" he "sucks." Using that comparison is like saying Dan Marino sucked because he wasn't Tom Brady.
Since you left me off the list my response was unthoughtful and was the suxity thx. Hi Brett!