So he can play at peak level night after night. I don't see how steroids changes how you see the ball. It can help you hit the ball harder or further, but it doesn't help you see every pitch and never miss. Bonds was on another level. I have never seen anyone as dangerous as him at the plate.
Most people think steroids just build muscle, like Popeye eating spinach, but one of the main uses of PEDs is recovering faster than you would otherwise. Faster recovery lets you lift more and more often which builds muscle, which let's you lift more, which builds more muscle, etc. Throw in some drugs that help build muscle too and now you smash puny baseball.
he was a GREAT player in the 90s, HOF worthy without question, BEFORE he started juicing. Same deal with Clemons
To me, that's all the more reason I think he's awful. He didn't need to cheat to be great, but he did it anyway.
Bonds saw the attention and adulation that McGwire and Sosa got during the 1998 Home Run record chase. He knew what they were up to, and he also knew he was a better player than either one of them. So, he turned himself into the Michelin man and the greatest hitter any of will ever see very likely.
People have a right to their own opinions but Bonds didn’t even steroids. He chased a record that was already broken by a steroid player. Also, you have to factor in that bonds was far from the only player at the time on steroids and that includes pitchers. Not condoning his actions but there are several steroid era players in the hall of fame that may not have been caught or people just ignore the steroids (see Ortiz, David).
And 73 is the record. That was an era where so many were doing it and there was no testing, so it's impossible to differentiate. As others have pointed out every era has it's "performance enhancers" you think when Mickey and the Babe were out all night partying and then showing up blasting homers in day games the shots they were getting from " Dr Feel good" we're not helping them recover and perform? Those years Bonds had were some of the best hitting performances in the history of the game. I'm 54 but the old timers need to get off their sanctimonious mountain.
Barry Bonds was the best ballplayer of my lifetime
Hands down. He was the best ballplayer before he ever touched PEDs. Lots of players took them, and yet no one did anything remotely like what he did. There's a reason for that.
And 73 is the record. That was an era where so many were doing it and there was no testing, so it's impossible to differentiate. As others have pointed out every era has it's "performance enhancers" you think when Mickey and the Babe were out all night partying and then showing up blasting homers in day games the shots they were getting from " Dr Feel good" we're not helping them recover and perform? Those years Bonds had were some of the best hitting performances in the history of the game. I'm 54 but the old timers need to get off their sanctimonious mountain.
Oh, the "everybody else is cheating, so it should be okay" play. Brilliant.
Then Bonds, with all of his wealth, should have been smarter and more discreet about his cheating. Instead, he chose Greg Anderson, Conte and BALCO and got exposed.
Because to me if there is clear evidence that you cheated, you should not be granted the privilege of Cooperstown. This is why it's wrong that Poppy got in. And that's the real problem - the hypocrisy of the HoF voters by playing favorites.
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
RE: RE: Dont worry Speedy, someday you may get something right
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
You literally go from "rewarding integrity over deceit" to arguing that integrity doesn't matter in the space of a few posts. If integrity matters that much to you then you shouldn't be justifying why Pettitte and Steinbrenner don't deserve the face the same consequences for their actions.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Bonds not being in the HOF is a joke
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
You literally go from "rewarding integrity over deceit" to arguing that integrity doesn't matter in the space of a few posts. If integrity matters that much to you then you shouldn't be justifying why Pettitte and Steinbrenner don't deserve the face the same consequences for their actions.
My bad for not seeing the direct correlation between a political campaign cash issue and MLB.
As for Pettitte, it shouldn't be hard to discern that I would keep out of the HoF, which, again, I find to be a reward on a much higher level than a plaque at Yankee Stadium. Nor do I care if Deer Park High School if they want to put Pettitte in their HoF.
It's called drawing a line.
Quit crying. He's the single season and career HR leader
You know what, if the rest of the league was juicing and getting attention for it, he never would have. He kind of proved his point. He showed what it looks like when someone who is already actually great uses. He put the rest of the league to shame because he was the best player in the league.
I don't love the steroid use and abuse in that era. But, I refuse to single him out or pretend like he didn't do what he did. Even more impressive than his 73 HR season, was the follow-up with 49 HRs. He set a record for walks and IBBs in a season. It was almost like any time he actually saw a pitch to hit, he hit it out.
I don't care what anyone says. He belongs in the HOF. He won multiple MVPs and GGs before he ever used and was on a pace for 600 HRs before he ever used.
If we are bring honest, there is only one player who would shock me
Judge out of the equation for a second, my beef with the HOF is it's a damn near FACT that other steroid users are in the HOF. What's the line here? Bonds belongs in the HOF.
If everyone is using 'roids, it's a level playing field.
I could argue Ruth's numbers (because really it's all about protecting Babe Ruth) were influenced by playing in a segregated sport where he didn't have to cross the Mississippi River except when the Yankees played the Cards in the World Series.
See, I don't know if I agree about Mcgwire. he doesn't hit 500 without PEDs and his career is shorter by at least a few years.
I would add, the 1 guy from that era that stumps me is A-Rod
On the surface, he was supremely talented and HOFer without PEDs. But, there is a lot of speculation about when he started using. Some say as early as HS, which then puts his entire career in question.
I'm a Willie Mays fan never a Mantle fan. Mickey liked his alcohol , I know nothing of any drugs he used
Quote:
.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
silence speaks volumes
Now you do. Mantle used a cocktail of speed and steroids. Odds of him being the only one are remote.
Mays used amphetamines, also a PED. Odds of him being the only one are also remote.
Which PEDs invalidate performance and which are allowed?
Mantle used steroids???
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
I don't know how some of these dudes aren't in. Bonds was a HOFer before he started juicing. & isn't the HOF a place to tell the story of the game? How can you tell baseball's history without a guy like Bonds? Put him in & put an asterisk at the bottom about his PED use. The 'morality clause' is such a joke. If the NFL had such a clause, LT isn't in.
Mantle used steroids???
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
Yes, Mantle used steroids:
Quote:
Mickey Mantle was forced out of part of the '61 pennant race by an infection he got from the needle of a quack doctor who shot him up with a concoction of steroids and amphetamine.
During our examination of the bat, we noticed a circular area .75 inches wide in the center of the top barrel. The finish in the area has also been touched up to mask the circular area. Alterations of this nature indicate the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork….we had the barrel x-rayed and (it) confirms that the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork.
Mantle used steroids???
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
Yes, Mantle used steroids:
Quote:
Mickey Mantle was forced out of part of the '61 pennant race by an infection he got from the needle of a quack doctor who shot him up with a concoction of steroids and amphetamine.
Steroids shouldn't preclude the HOF
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!
He also corked his bat:
Quote:
During our examination of the bat, we noticed a circular area .75 inches wide in the center of the top barrel. The finish in the area has also been touched up to mask the circular area. Alterations of this nature indicate the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork….we had the barrel x-rayed and (it) confirms that the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork.
Looks Like Mickey Mantle Used To Cork His Bat
So I see evidence of 1 time where he used-and it ended his season-1961
Corking the bat I would need to do some more research on...
Either way I don't see any evidence of an uptick in HR #s until the Steroid era of the late 90s early 2000s
So I am not sure what the point here is....
If I was a child in the 60s and found out Mantle Corked yes I would probably be upset....
I am not one of these people who think that all Yankees get a pass....I hate Clemens and Aroid-
Steinbrenner is an asshole who owned the team so what??
I could understand if you didnt want him in the HOF
Im not really sure what he did to deserve getting in....
Barry Bonds categorically did not cheat when he broke the single season record, and likely didn’t when he broke the career record. This small fact escapes the majority of people in this conversation.
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
Barry Bonds categorically did not cheat when he broke the single season record, and likely didn’t when he broke the career record. This small fact escapes the majority of people in this conversation.
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
To me the point has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not...
We all watched his body change radically and his HR totals skyrocket...
How can you compare what he did to what Judge is doing
Just loom at Bonds career #s and tell me what you see
Barry Bonds categorically did not cheat when he broke the single season record, and likely didn’t when he broke the career record. This small fact escapes the majority of people in this conversation.
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
If it's that cut and dry, then the steroid users should use that reasoning publicly, especially those who put up HoF results.
Stand up and be proud for finding a better way to get better results.
BW — from what I know about Bonds, I’m surprised he hasn’t. I could totally see him saying he accomplished everything in his career within the bounds of the rules at the time and he’s proud of his accomplishments. I’d respect that.
RE: Dont worry Speedy, someday you may get something right
To me, that's all the more reason I think he's awful. He didn't need to cheat to be great, but he did it anyway.
The reason there is so much hoopla around Judge is that Maris is the single season HR king
Correct. The American League single season HR king.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
Most people think steroids just build muscle, like Popeye eating spinach, but one of the main uses of PEDs is recovering faster than you would otherwise. Faster recovery lets you lift more and more often which builds muscle, which let's you lift more, which builds more muscle, etc. Throw in some drugs that help build muscle too and now you smash puny baseball.
Quote:
he was a GREAT player in the 90s, HOF worthy without question, BEFORE he started juicing. Same deal with Clemons
To me, that's all the more reason I think he's awful. He didn't need to cheat to be great, but he did it anyway.
Bonds saw the attention and adulation that McGwire and Sosa got during the 1998 Home Run record chase. He knew what they were up to, and he also knew he was a better player than either one of them. So, he turned himself into the Michelin man and the greatest hitter any of will ever see very likely.
Keeping him out of the Hall is stupid.
Hall of Fame Plaques: Barry Bonds: Zero.
(* cheater).
The reason there is so much hoopla around Judge is that Maris is the single season HR king
And neither should..
Piazza? Biggio? Larry Walker? Chipper Jones? Jim Thome? Trevor Hoffman? Smoltz? Frank Thomas? Robbie Alomar? Rickey Henderson? I could go on and on...
Who is the judge of who did it and who didnt?
Quote:
.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
silence speaks volumes
Bonds may forever be the record-holder, but Judge is (will be) the standard-bearer.
Oh, the "everybody else is cheating, so it should be okay" play. Brilliant.
Then Bonds, with all of his wealth, should have been smarter and more discreet about his cheating. Instead, he chose Greg Anderson, Conte and BALCO and got exposed.
Because to me if there is clear evidence that you cheated, you should not be granted the privilege of Cooperstown. This is why it's wrong that Poppy got in. And that's the real problem - the hypocrisy of the HoF voters by playing favorites.
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
Quote:
In comment 15831042 gtt350 said:
I'm a Willie Mays fan never a Mantle fan. Mickey liked his alcohol , I know nothing of any drugs he used
Quote:
.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
silence speaks volumes
Quote:
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
He says the same thing to any poster that disagrees with him about anything. It’s definitely funny at this point.
Quote:
In comment 15831046 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15831042 gtt350 said:
I'm a Willie Mays fan never a Mantle fan. Mickey liked his alcohol , I know nothing of any drugs he used
Quote:
.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
silence speaks volumes
Now you do. Mantle used a cocktail of speed and steroids. Odds of him being the only one are remote.
Mays used amphetamines, also a PED. Odds of him being the only one are also remote.
Which PEDs invalidate performance and which are allowed?
Quote:
In comment 15831220 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Is this sanctimonious? Maybe in your eyes. But I look at it as being more interested in rewarding integrity over deceit.
So I am sure that we'll be able to get your signature on our petition to remove Andy Pettitte from the list of honorees in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. And I know you support the "Keep George Steinbrenner out of the Baseball Hall of Fame" petition as well since he is convicted felon who participated in election campaign fraud.
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
You literally go from "rewarding integrity over deceit" to arguing that integrity doesn't matter in the space of a few posts. If integrity matters that much to you then you shouldn't be justifying why Pettitte and Steinbrenner don't deserve the face the same consequences for their actions.
The Yankees can honor whomever they want. The HoF is on a much different - higher - scale.
As for Steinbrenner, I am neutral. He's not playing on the field. People come to watch the players play, not owners own.
So, those shouldn't be hard distinctions to see.
You literally go from "rewarding integrity over deceit" to arguing that integrity doesn't matter in the space of a few posts. If integrity matters that much to you then you shouldn't be justifying why Pettitte and Steinbrenner don't deserve the face the same consequences for their actions.
My bad for not seeing the direct correlation between a political campaign cash issue and MLB.
As for Pettitte, it shouldn't be hard to discern that I would keep out of the HoF, which, again, I find to be a reward on a much higher level than a plaque at Yankee Stadium. Nor do I care if Deer Park High School if they want to put Pettitte in their HoF.
It's called drawing a line.
You know what, if the rest of the league was juicing and getting attention for it, he never would have. He kind of proved his point. He showed what it looks like when someone who is already actually great uses. He put the rest of the league to shame because he was the best player in the league.
I don't love the steroid use and abuse in that era. But, I refuse to single him out or pretend like he didn't do what he did. Even more impressive than his 73 HR season, was the follow-up with 49 HRs. He set a record for walks and IBBs in a season. It was almost like any time he actually saw a pitch to hit, he hit it out.
I don't care what anyone says. He belongs in the HOF. He won multiple MVPs and GGs before he ever used and was on a pace for 600 HRs before he ever used.
I could argue Ruth's numbers (because really it's all about protecting Babe Ruth) were influenced by playing in a segregated sport where he didn't have to cross the Mississippi River except when the Yankees played the Cards in the World Series.
Guys like Jeter and Ken Griffey Jr. can go in the regular section and guys like Ortiz and A Rod can go in the asterisk section...
Quote:
In comment 15831207 moze1021 said:
Quote:
In comment 15831046 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15831042 gtt350 said:
I'm a Willie Mays fan never a Mantle fan. Mickey liked his alcohol , I know nothing of any drugs he used
Quote:
.
How do you feel about Mickey Mantle?
silence speaks volumes
Now you do. Mantle used a cocktail of speed and steroids. Odds of him being the only one are remote.
Mays used amphetamines, also a PED. Odds of him being the only one are also remote.
Which PEDs invalidate performance and which are allowed?
Mantle used steroids???
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
But yes, steroids existed.
Plus, baseball players were taking stuff like monkey testosterone and sheep testicles as far back as the late 1800s.
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
Yes, Mantle used steroids:
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!
He also corked his bat:
Quote:
Mantle used steroids???
Did they even exist then?
Speed/Amphetamines have nowhere near the same advantage that Steroids have....No One even came close to 61 between Maris and the Steroid era-so stop the madness
Yes, Mantle used steroids:
Quote:
Mickey Mantle was forced out of part of the '61 pennant race by an infection he got from the needle of a quack doctor who shot him up with a concoction of steroids and amphetamine.
Steroids shouldn't preclude the HOF
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!
He also corked his bat:
Quote:
During our examination of the bat, we noticed a circular area .75 inches wide in the center of the top barrel. The finish in the area has also been touched up to mask the circular area. Alterations of this nature indicate the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork….we had the barrel x-rayed and (it) confirms that the barrel has been drilled and filled with cork.
Looks Like Mickey Mantle Used To Cork His Bat
So I see evidence of 1 time where he used-and it ended his season-1961
Corking the bat I would need to do some more research on...
Either way I don't see any evidence of an uptick in HR #s until the Steroid era of the late 90s early 2000s
So I am not sure what the point here is....
If I was a child in the 60s and found out Mantle Corked yes I would probably be upset....
I am not one of these people who think that all Yankees get a pass....I hate Clemens and Aroid-
Steinbrenner is an asshole who owned the team so what??
I could understand if you didnt want him in the HOF
Im not really sure what he did to deserve getting in....
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
To me the point has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not...
We all watched his body change radically and his HR totals skyrocket...
How can you compare what he did to what Judge is doing
Just loom at Bonds career #s and tell me what you see
MLB did not ban steroids until 2005.
You may not like it, you may have wished they were banned, you can criticize Bonds for potentially breaking a law, but he didn’t cheat.
Bonds is a grade A asshole. I knew a lot of people who were close to him at the time, and I had some close relationships in and around those Giants teams. He was hated in the clubhouse. Just an absolute butthead.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. I hated watching him break those records.
But let’s at least be accurate when discussing the topic.
If it's that cut and dry, then the steroid users should use that reasoning publicly, especially those who put up HoF results.
Stand up and be proud for finding a better way to get better results.
"No one outside of NYC"
Really, THAT is what you're going with?
You're king of stupid takes, but even that one is over the top for you.
You are on the same side of this discussion Stan in LA; just think about that for a second...
McGwire admitted he used 'roids ....
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/26/world/jupiter-opposition-closest-to-earth-scn/index.html
Sosa almost did ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sammy-sosa-technically-apologized-cubs-using-peds-sort-165947511.html
A-Rod did ....
https://www.espn.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/12337962/alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-issues-formal-apology-statement
Andy Pettitte for using HGHs ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baseball-steroids-pettitte/yankees-pettitte-apologizes-for-growth-hormone-use-idUSN1820759620080218
(Roger Clemens never has)
So don't give me this baloney about, get over it Yankee fans, a cheater is a cheater whether he's wearing pin-stripes or not.
McGwire admitted he used 'roids ....
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/26/world/jupiter-opposition-closest-to-earth-scn/index.html
Sosa almost did ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sammy-sosa-technically-apologized-cubs-using-peds-sort-165947511.html
A-Rod did ....
https://www.espn.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/12337962/alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-issues-formal-apology-statement
Andy Pettitte for using HGHs ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baseball-steroids-pettitte/yankees-pettitte-apologizes-for-growth-hormone-use-idUSN1820759620080218
(Roger Clemens never has)
So don't give me this baloney about, get over it Yankee fans, a cheater is a cheater whether he's wearing pin-stripes or not.
How does someone "cheat" without breaking any "rules"?