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Reality of the situation at 2-0

Thegratefulhead : 9/26/2022 4:31 pm
Let me lay out some facts to start.

61% of teams that start 2-0 make the playoffs.
76% that start 3-0...
85% that start 4-0.

Now for some context.

I started as a Daniel Jones supporter and have moved to being a critic. My position changed because of what he produced on the field. That simple. I have not been subjective.

Many people subjectively criticized Jones first year because of the teams he compiled his positive stats against. For the last 2 years others have used subjective reasoning to claim that his lack of production has been due to circumstance.

Tonight, the future of Daniel Jones will likely be decided. One game, small sample, I get it.

but...

If we go to 3-0 and beat the Boys, it is going to get real fucking loud and this young team is going to build confidence.

I am comfortable saying that if win tonight, this team will make the playoffs.

Run with me here.

A QB drafted 6th in the first round leads his team to playoffs in year 4 on a not overly talented team.

Remove you personal bias on what you think you knew and think about this as if someone was talking about another QB and team you knew nothing about. If Daniel Jones takes this team to the playoffs in year 4, with this roster I will reconsider my opinion on him.

You should too.

If he loses this game it likely means he is who most of thought he was. Just a guy. Gonna say it right now.

I think we win, and if we do, we make the playoffs.

Go Giants!
Tonight is free  
BigBlueJ : 9/26/2022 4:38 pm : link
money, we can lose this week and beat the bears next week. 2-0 is so huge.
Shhh.  
MOOPS : 9/26/2022 4:41 pm : link
You're gonna freak out the glass-half-empty crowd.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/26/2022 4:42 pm : link
To me, I am less concerned with Ws and Ls this season as much as I am on showing competency on the field, with the coaching staff, & the FO. Of course I want to win & playoffs would be cool, but I am more interested long term.
Not a good argument  
Producer : 9/26/2022 4:43 pm : link
especially as you acknowledge, you are basing on a small sample. Plenty of bad teams with bad QBs get lucky and make the playoffs one year. Jones has not played particularly well on this two game run. We have gotten lucky.

I'll believe in Jones when he puts up some impressive numbers and we blow a few decent teams out. Not scraping by on 20 point games, winning by 2 points. No thanks. They might be fun wins but they're not convincing. And beating the Cowboys with a backup won't move the needle much. It'll be nice to go 3-0, but we have to put together some run of dominance, before I believe, not just luck. And getting to face Cooper Rush, is lucky.
you know what -- I just want to see the giants win tonite  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/26/2022 4:45 pm : link
no bull!
The reality as I see it is  
Amc825 : 9/26/2022 4:46 pm : link
The Giants are not a good team. The Titans had no film of the new Giants Offense or Defense so beating them was an anomaly.
The Panthers are a terrible team and we barely scrapped by.
It’s the coaching…  
trueblueinpw : 9/26/2022 4:49 pm : link
What’s impressed me these past two wins is the coaching. Head coach DaBALLS and his massive staff of Kafka and Wink have been the real difference this season. Jones still looks like a back up to me.

Let go Giants!
So If Jones Has No Pocket To Step Up Into (Again)  
Trainmaster : 9/26/2022 4:50 pm : link
And his wide receivers get zero separation (again), it’s all on Jones if he can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t?
Whoa...  
Johnny5 : 9/26/2022 4:52 pm : link
Who are you and what have you done with Thegratefulhead, dood?
The reality  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/26/2022 4:55 pm : link
is let's hope the OL improves (especially on the IOL), the running game gets more consistent and a couple WR's step up.

Then we can see better (or confirm) what Jones is. That reality is that was what this season was about for him.
if Jones is merely a passenger on the O rather than the leader  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2022 4:55 pm : link
then why would I reconsider? That's all he's been, Alex Smith Jr.
RE: So If Jones Has No Pocket To Step Up Into (Again)  
Alamo : 9/26/2022 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15831330 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
And his wide receivers get zero separation (again), it’s all on Jones if he can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t?

This has been going on for half a century..A team wins a big game,the QB becomes a God..If he loses a big game he becomes Satan..You cannot change the human race in the USA,about football..Or any other sport..Like the Mafia boss said."Forget about It"
Unfortunately I agree with Amc825  
arniefez : 9/26/2022 5:00 pm : link
IMO the Giants are not a good team yet. IMO they still have a very poor roster at C/OG, ILB, WR & TE. IMO there's not one above average starter in those groups combined. IMO there may not even be an average starter in those groups. I don't think the coaching staff is not going to be able to hide those weaknesses over 17 games. I'm thrilled the Giants are 2-0 and I'll be rooting/screaming at the TV tonight. It's been so long I may not remember how to.

I'm excited about the new FO and coaching staff so far. But I was in football love with Joe Judge at one point and wanted Charlie Weis as HC instead of Tom Coughlin. I do think the Giants have done almost everything right since Judge was fired. But IMO the roster that was inherited needs more improvement and many more good players before they can compete at the top of the conference.
Mitch Trubisky was drafted #2 overall  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/26/2022 5:05 pm : link
and the Bears went to the playoffs in his 2nd season (they went 11-3 in his starts and 1-1 in the games he missed).

Run with me here.

A QB drafted 2nd in the first round leads his team to playoffs in year 2 on a not overly talented team.

Remove your personal bias on what you think you knew and think about this as if someone was talking about another QB and team you knew nothing about. Since Mitch Trubisky took that team to the playoffs in year 2, with that roster, you should reconsider your opinion on him.

Or not. Trubisky is what he is. And he's not a worse QB now than when he took the Bears to the playoffs.

And the same will apply to Jones. Playoffs are a HUGE step forward, but if Jones is a passenger who the team wins in spite of, then making the playoffs shouldn't elevate anyone's view on DJ going forward. If Jones is a big part of why the Giants make the playoffs, I think it should absolutely be a factor in considering his future with the team. And his first three seasons should also be a factor in considering his future (or lack thereof) with the team.
Dallas is banged up and weakened atm  
JonC : 9/26/2022 5:07 pm : link
just win the game.
I am not a Jones apologist  
larryflower37 : 9/26/2022 5:10 pm : link
But could you have a worse group of pass catchers?
Obviously the line is still a question mark also.
I would say both of those things are pretty important for reference ask Aaron Rogers
I wouldn't call it a touchstone game for Jones  
JonC : 9/26/2022 5:13 pm : link
but it could serve as a building block for working towards sustaining improvement and progress. This is where is Jones remains until he gets it out of neutral or first gear. He looks super tight out there most of the time, trying his hardest to remember all of his data and not make a killer mistake, he gets tunnel vision, anxious feet, etc.

I want to see him perform like he belongs in his spot. Command of the offense, clean performances, take a leap forward. It has not happened yet. Let it rip.
Before the season started  
ChicagoMarty : 9/26/2022 5:13 pm : link
I put an L next to this game on the schedule when projecting the season's fortunes.

The fact that we have a real chance to put up a W tonight is almost unfathomable.

I am just happy to be excited to watch a Giant football game again.

That's progress
RE: Tonight is free  
Simms11 : 9/26/2022 5:17 pm : link
In comment 15831309 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
money, we can lose this week and beat the bears next week. 2-0 is so huge.


We have to start winning Divisional games, especially at HOME, if we ever want this team to get back to the promise land!
The stat’s are irrelevant Imo being they’re from a 16 week schedule  
bigblue1124 : 9/26/2022 5:17 pm : link
If DJ pans out fantastic! One less position we need to upgrade but he has a lot to prove. The key Imo is seeing the team improve every week while still building a roster and winning games doing it is such a bonus.

Damn I hope we kick the shit out of the Cowboys
RE: So If Jones Has No Pocket To Step Up Into (Again)  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/26/2022 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15831330 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
And his wide receivers get zero separation (again), it’s all on Jones if he can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t?

It's not "on Jones" but the reality is still that his rookie contract is up after this year and the cost to keep him will increase dramatically even if he has a mediocre year.

What you're describing is a significant roster problem that would need to be addressed. If DJ isn't the problem, we need to allocate significant resources to the OL and WR yet again. And to do that while the price tag on your QB is increasing substantially, and your confidence in that QB is still an unknown at best (again, because by your own hypothesis, you can't possibly know anything about a QB who doesn't get a pristine pocket and elite WRs) is a tall task.

If you're still that close to square one offensively that your QB simply cannot operate a functional passing game through no fault of his own, it would make much more sense to go cheap at the QB position while you continue to improve the offensive personnel - logically, you'd be better off spending dollars addressing the cause of the problem, not its effect.
Go GMen!  
Simms11 : 9/26/2022 5:19 pm : link
.
Well said JonC  
arniefez : 9/26/2022 5:20 pm : link
IMO if Jones is going to remain the Giants QB there have to be games that he's the reason they win. Tonight would be a good time to start.
Agree OP  
knowledgetimmons : 9/26/2022 5:28 pm : link
This game is one of the more important of Jones' career. A beatable division opponent at home. Cowboys should be put away and fairly early. It will pay dividends within the locker room for DJ to take this team and drive it. We shall see.

I get why pessimists like The Producer are down on this team and DJ in general. It's hard to see well run teams like the Eagles and Cowboys have media anointed 'elite' QB's ride good OL's and offensive depth to divisional titles. I wish some of the same from our Giants as well. But just like Eli, if DJ can overcome odds this season and take the next step to playoff football with a marginal team, I'm ok with whatever the brass does to keep that going.
Titans and Panthers  
armstead98 : 9/26/2022 5:31 pm : link
Those two wins look a lot better after yesterday. Certainly not the strongest opponents but not doormats.
I remember starting 5-0 and missing the playoffs  
TommytheElephant : 9/26/2022 5:34 pm : link
Was that 2009?
Hopefully Jones doesn’t panic with the rush coming in. Needs to  
Jimmy Googs : 9/26/2022 5:34 pm : link
get his head around quickly and find a target and let it go. If rush doesn’t allow for several progressions take off.. no hesitation.

Just don’t screw it up…
RE: Tonight is free  
UConn4523 : 9/26/2022 5:36 pm : link
In comment 15831309 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
money, we can lose this week and beat the bears next week. 2-0 is so huge.


No it isn't. Dallas is vulnerable and we need this game if we want to get to the playoffs. There isn't a gimme on the schedule considering how little firepower we have. The difference between 3-0 and 2-1 is pretty large for this kind of team.
Trying to be objective here  
5BowlsSoon : 9/26/2022 5:48 pm : link
I think the Giants may win tonight, but probably not because of Jones or the offense.Here’s why I say that….

1. Parsons is going to abuse anyone who tries to stand in his way, including our prize rookie, Evan Neal. As a result of this, Jones will be running for his life and will probably have some turnovers. I just don’t trust Jones when under duress.

2. I think Dallas will send the kitchen sink all day to come after Barkley first and if he doesn’t get the ball, Jones second. This may not be pretty. I just don’t trust our OL yet….need more time to gel and to get a few guys back.

3. Our WRs- if Richie is our best- and I like him- but if he is our best, we don’t have anybody that scares them, which reinforces their game plan to wreck havoc on Jones and Barkley. I just don’t trust our WRs to stand out. Shep may make a few catches for some first downs, but probably not anything significant.

But I’m thinking Dallas will have just as much problem with our defense as we have with theirs. This could be another SF/ Denver game, 11-10, or thereabouts. Maybe Gano can win player of the week again….we will probably need 4 or more FGs from him to win. Giants win 12-10.

I apologize for being completely honest sharing my thoughts. I hope I’m wrong and I hope the offense does their fair share to help us win. I don’t mind eating crow.
Whether they make the playoffs  
Gman11 : 9/26/2022 5:49 pm : link
should not be the deciding factor with Jones. It's did they win because of him or in spite of him. The coaches do a lot different critiquing of QBs than the average fan.
People are laying this the shouldsre of Jones, remember the Giants  
Jack Stroud : 9/26/2022 5:50 pm : link
defense will have to stop the cowturds offense, and the Giants oline will have to make some room for the RB's and keep the rush off of Jones for more than 1.8 seconds. Yes, Jones will have to make good decisions but if he doesn't and all of those who are screaming for a new QB could be saying the same thing in 3 or 4 years. Dallas has fallen off a lot, they have a back up QB who may be as good as Prescott, they run the ball well and they play good defense, so this is not all on Jones.
RE: Not a good argument  
joeinpa : 9/26/2022 5:54 pm : link
In comment 15831318 Producer said:
Quote:
especially as you acknowledge, you are basing on a small sample. Plenty of bad teams with bad QBs get lucky and make the playoffs one year. Jones has not played particularly well on this two game run. We have gotten lucky.

I'll believe in Jones when he puts up some impressive numbers and we blow a few decent teams out. Not scraping by on 20 point games, winning by 2 points. No thanks. They might be fun wins but they're not convincing. And beating the Cowboys with a backup won't move the needle much. It'll be nice to go 3-0, but we have to put together some run of dominance, before I believe, not just luck. And getting to face Cooper Rush, is lucky.


Phil Simms disagrees with you about Jones ‘ first 2 games, but carry on

RE: People are laying this the shouldsre of Jones, remember the Giants  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/26/2022 5:54 pm : link
In comment 15831386 Jack Stroud said:
Quote:
defense will have to stop the cowturds offense, and the Giants oline will have to make some room for the RB's and keep the rush off of Jones for more than 1.8 seconds. Yes, Jones will have to make good decisions but if he doesn't and all of those who are screaming for a new QB could be saying the same thing in 3 or 4 years. Dallas has fallen off a lot, they have a back up QB who may be as good as Prescott, they run the ball well and they play good defense, so this is not all on Jones.

If there are reasons why Jones can't succeed, which are outside of Jones's control, I don't think anyone is saying those problems shouldn't be addressed.

Just that there's no reason to pay Jones another contract if the offense is still so dysfunctional anyway. It means that a rebuild is still in the opening stages, so why pay retail for a veteran QB who hasn't been able to prove himself in four seasons?

If those factors are the only reason why Jones can't succeed, and they're still not fixed in another 3-4 years, that's a much bigger problem than fretting over whether DJ was victimized by the Giants, wouldn't you agree?
The vast majority ofvus wanted to see measurable improvement  
rnargi : 9/26/2022 5:59 pm : link
and I think it's fair to say that so far, we've seen it. I will be happy to see more of the same. The wins will follow.
All I know is I'm nervous as hell right now  
PatersonPlank : 9/26/2022 6:05 pm : link
I don't know about Jones, or the playoffs, but I hope the players are calmer than I am.
We have a full season  
BobOnLI : 9/26/2022 6:07 pm : link
To evaluate our QB and the rest of team. Why not just enjoy this season and worry t about next season when this one is over. Go Giants.
RE: All I know is I'm nervous as hell right now  
Returning Video Tapes : 9/26/2022 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15831398 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I don't know about Jones, or the playoffs, but I hope the players are calmer than I am.


Never been more apprehensive before game (or at least since I can remember) and all the smart money is on Cooper friggin Rush.

God would love to see a beat down tonight.
RE: People are laying this the shouldsre of Jones, remember the Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 9/26/2022 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15831386 Jack Stroud said:
Quote:
defense will have to stop the cowturds offense, and the Giants oline will have to make some room for the RB's and keep the rush off of Jones for more than 1.8 seconds. Yes, Jones will have to make good decisions but if he doesn't and all of those who are screaming for a new QB could be saying the same thing in 3 or 4 years. Dallas has fallen off a lot, they have a back up QB who may be as good as Prescott, they run the ball well and they play good defense, so this is not all on Jones.


Yeah, not so much.

Jones needs to make plays, and put up enough points so the team starting its backup QB struggles to keep pace.

Otherwise it’s just a battle of backup QBs…
________  
I am Ninja : 9/26/2022 6:14 pm : link
"Tonight, the future of Daniel Jones will likely be decided"


The hyperbole around here is just insane sometimes.
Paterson.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/26/2022 6:14 pm : link
Bill Russell used to puke before every game. I would say his career turned out well. Haha.
There are only three undefeated teams left right now  
islander1 : 9/26/2022 6:24 pm : link
Eagles
Dolphins

and us.

The internet will temporarily break if we win tonight and go 3-0. The memes will be fast and furious, and it'll be amazing.
RE: Not a good argument  
Thegratefulhead : 9/26/2022 6:37 pm : link
In comment 15831318 Producer said:
Quote:
especially as you acknowledge, you are basing on a small sample. Plenty of bad teams with bad QBs get lucky and make the playoffs one year. Jones has not played particularly well on this two game run. We have gotten lucky.

I'll believe in Jones when he puts up some impressive numbers and we blow a few decent teams out. Not scraping by on 20 point games, winning by 2 points. No thanks. They might be fun wins but they're not convincing. And beating the Cowboys with a backup won't move the needle much. It'll be nice to go 3-0, but we have to put together some run of dominance, before I believe, not just luck. And getting to face Cooper Rush, is lucky.
" plenty of bad teams with bad QBs make the playoffs." Back that up.
We are  
Joe Beckwith : 9/26/2022 6:42 pm : link
2-0 yet strongly a work in progress.
We have not set the tone at OL and Edge, and are weak at WR, LB, and shaky in the secondary.
We’re not even healthy enough to evaluate properly anyway.
This game could be close, or a blow out in either direction.
But it will be a big lesson going forward about the team and coaching.
I think we win , close.
Put the context 8nto the rest of season.  
Thegratefulhead : 9/26/2022 6:43 pm : link
Try to think about what this season will need to look like for the Giants to make the playoffs. If Jones keeps winning, I expect he will play better. This team is not that talented. If Jones leads them to the playoffs,that matters to me. Some of cannot imagine a world where you are wrong about something you are not an expert.


That speaks volumes about you.
Don't agree with much of eeh OP  
giantstock : 9/26/2022 7:53 pm : link
I have disagreed with him a lot over the last couple of years. I think he's wrong on many things. But rather than harp too much on the negative

I do think the game is fine measuring stick for THE TEAM and not JUST Jones. This is the basic issue I've had with the OP and others like him. They think of football as only the QB.

Anyhow I'm excited to see many things tonight how the Giants measure up from all positions including the QB but ALL positions.

I will agree iwht him on one one "Go Giants! Beat them sons of bitches!!!
Mitch Trubisky  
Blue The Dog : 9/26/2022 8:11 pm : link
Trubisky made the playoffs with the Bears twice. Including the last season he was there. Hell, he even made a pro bowl with the bears, but they knew not to give him a second contract.

If Jones keeps throwing for under 200 yards, and producing under 20 points a game, it doesn't matter how far the team goes, he's gone.
This is not the night to do the DJ evaluation.  
BillT : 9/26/2022 9:51 pm : link
This is the night to hope for a lucky break. We have 14 more for the DJ evaluation.
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