He has always been a weapon with his legs & his WR’s let him down last night. I was quick to blame him for that INT in the game thread which I was wrong. Frustration got the best of me and it was a bad job by me.
With that said, I still don’t think he’ll be back *if* the season ended today. A lot of times the NFL isn’t fair & Jones has been dealt a shitty hand. But, I think Schoen & Daboll will want a clean slate with their own QB for a few reasons:
1. Barring a trade for a veteran, the QB will be cheaper.
2. The production will not be difficult to replace.
3. Jones will probably be even more beat up by the end of the season when he’s already had an injury history throughout his career.
4. Looking at his full body of work here, has Greg said above - he has not been without blame.
5. This regime did not draft Jones.
I thought Jones was a gamer last night. He’s still got a lot of work to do though for this regime to consider him an option for next year imo.
If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.
The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.
I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.
you can be honest in your assessment of Jones and know that he was doing all he could alst night and we were still in the game and yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course.
Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.
I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.
That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.
The OP is right that the situation that DJ was in last night is so far from optimal that it's alarming. The OP is right that DJ was under a lot of pressure last night, and that his receivers were meh, at best.
Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.
Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.
No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.
And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?
If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.
The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.
I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.
Last night, even I can admit that is ture.
As Aikman said last night, the decision has already been made. For Jones to be back next year with a new regime, I think he needs to remove ANY doubt that he is the guy. To date, I don’t think there has been enough production.
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
1)Jones played as well as he could despite being kneecapped by terrible play on the part of the OL and WRs all night, giving him very little to work with
2)Jones still is a QB with a fairly hard ceiling who will likely end up a backup somewhere else next year
I’d like to see some big plays out of the passing game.
We are now on a second system in three years and the Jones-led offense continues a pattern of low scoring move the chains results.
I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.
(Coaching staff and GM) are making the decision on Jones then I am fine with what they decide. I am ready to move on from Jones, but I feel the need to trust these decision makers until they prove otherwise
you can be honest in your assessment of Jones and know that he was doing all he could alst night and we were still in the game and yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course.
Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.
I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.
That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.
"yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course."
An argument could be made that he indeed hit on things that could have changed the course. But Golliday, Shep, and Sills all let him down. Several KEY drops, penalties, and slips did him in. Imagine had Shep not been called for a non-existent OPI or dropping a pass that would have led to a 1st down conversion? Imagine had Golliday caught the two deep crossers he dropped? Imagine had Feliciano not decided to take a stroll downfield on the 18 yard screen pickup by Barkley? Imagine Sills NOT falling on the INT?
Jones made plays, and he did it while under extreme duress. The offensive team around him didn't make their plays.
But he's also not one of those QBs who can carry a team single handed. And that means he's done here.
He’s never been a problem? Horseshit
I believe I said he "has never been THE problem"
This team has had many many many problems over Jones' career. Even at his worst moments there have always been other, more serious issues.
I know Jones hate is a cottage industry now but I just don't understand the joy you people seem to get from it.
I was furious the instant Mr. Magoo drafted this guy, having seen him play quite a bit for Duke and never being particularly impressed by him. Never wanted him on the Giants, and nothing he's ever done has convinced me otherwise. The only joy will come when a better QB replaces him.
under very difficult circumstances . That is the problem. Last night was the ceiling for Jones. He had pressure, took hits, ran the ball to keep drives alive, was very accurate on underneath throws . Effective game manager. But check downs don't win games. When he is rushed he is not elusive and gets sacked. When he has clean pocket he holds the ball and gets sacked . When he makes a throw downfield WRs are so stunned they drop perfect passes...Shepard...Golladay...
He is not the guy but last night was not on him at all .
Because I know we have a ton of holes and not a lot of real quality players but this team has a lite schedule and will compete which is all we can ask for when actually rebuilding(not what DG called rebuilding, this is a true tear down). So we probably won’t be drafting in the top 5 and we have too many holes to give up a plethora of picks to move up. Jones more than likely is back by default unless a veteran that interests them (Lamar?) somehow shakes free of his current team
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.
RE: I’d like to see some big plays out of the passing game.
We are now on a second system in three years and the Jones-led offense continues a pattern of low scoring move the chains results.
I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.
There just isn’t anything to get excited about.
Did you see the stat where we've only completed 1 pass over 25 yards this season
You have yo at least try to go deep. Cooper Rush missed a couple guys deep but he kept at it and finally hit a few.
He even hit Lamb in the hands with one but lamb dropped it
The OP is right that the situation that DJ was in last night is so far from optimal that it's alarming. The OP is right that DJ was under a lot of pressure last night, and that his receivers were meh, at best.
Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.
Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.
No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.
And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?
This post should be turned into it's own thread and stickied at the top of the board for the rest of the year
I was furious the instant Mr. Magoo drafted this guy, having seen him play quite a bit for Duke and never being particularly impressed by him. Never wanted him on the Giants, and nothing he's ever done has convinced me otherwise. The only joy will come when a better QB replaces him.
This is a bingo in my mind. I've learned you are a smart and perceptive poster across multiple sports. But you've put your finger on what I've long considered a key source of the hate on Jones and it stems from Gettleman's pick at six. 90% of us wanted the KY Josh Allen at that slot. As long as Jones is the Giants' starter, hell, as long as he's on the roster, he is living reminder of the franchise wrecking damage machine that Gettleman was, and like the young Leftenant in 'Master Commander' he will never escape that curse in the minds of so many fans. He will never escape the conflation of Gettleman hate with his less than top tier skills as a QB.
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's. Don't expect the Buffalo perimeter offense to win here at least not to expectations.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.
This is where I start to get a little nervous. If the Giants start grading Jones on a curve, and you squint a little, you can see a functional QB if you try.
That's why I would just rather the Giants really know coming out of this year. Either sink or swim, but I am convinced we're going to see float.
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's.
How do you define physicality? You use that word in nearly every post.
He played a gutsy game but he's just not good enough
It's year 4. If you think you still have to evaluate him, you have your answer. It would be organizational malpractice to bring him back next year. If they do, then Daboll and Schoen are incompetent fools.
Why do people insist on evaluating Jones with such a low bar?
"He wasn't the reason they lost, so he is good!!!"
Jones did play as well as can be expected last night under awful conditions. I think it was one of the better games he has played since the Saints game last year. And no, not many QBs alone win that game last night.
Having said all of that, does anyone see a guy you franchise next year and pay $30M? Does anyone really want to pay him like a top-5 QB on a long term deal?
Jones is not the biggest problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution. He is a replaceable piece that you absolutely can't pay big money.
RE: Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
If you want to build a team that has the 20th best offense in the league and can scrape their way to 9-10 wins if everything else on the team is good, everyone stays healthy, and you get a bunch of breaks....then yeah Jones is not the problem. He can get you there.
If you want to build a consistently good team - the kind of team that hosts and wins playoff games, you need an explosive offense that scores points in bunches and gains yards in chunks through the QB. If you want to have a great team, Jones is a huge problem. Having Jones as your QB makes it nearly impossible to have that kind of team.
everything Schoen has done up to this point suggests that they want an upgrade in talent at every position they can. I have no doubt in my mind that Daboll can pretty accurately see what he has in Jones between practice and the games. That combination leads me to believe that Jones won't be here next season save for a crazy productive rest of the year.
Because I know we have a ton of holes and not a lot of real quality players but this team has a lite schedule and will compete which is all we can ask for when actually rebuilding(not what DG called rebuilding, this is a true tear down). So we probably won’t be drafting in the top 5 and we have too many holes to give up a plethora of picks to move up. Jones more than likely is back by default unless a veteran that interests them (Lamar?) somehow shakes free of his current team
I wouldn't call the schedule light. Anything is possible each week. Colts looked like crap the first two weeks and then come home and stun the Chiefs and hold their league leading offense to 17 points. Any Given Sunday.
The Lions and the Jaguars all of the sudden look like two very formidable opponents the Giants will play later on this season. They will not be pushovers.
Next week is very winnable in my eyes (hopefully KT and Robinson are back at WR) and then after that it's @ Packers,
vs. Ravens, @ Jaguars. That's going to be a tough three game stretch.
Everyone was excited about the 2-0 start, myself included. Last night was winnable, but ultimately they are paying for the sins of how recklessly Gettleman was with FA money and how poorly the roster was constructed. That wasn't going to be eradicated in one season. Even with the amount of roster turnover they had, Schoen still was left with limited resources financially to upgrade the roster.
‘Float’ is going to have to include wins though. Being in playoff contention until the end of the year. Probably sweeping WFT and stealing a win against Dallas or Philly. Winning all the games they should. And most importantly, scoring TD’s in the red zone. And some explosive plays.
Remember, this is what Jones has always been. Has a nice game followed by a clunker. He’s going to have to string together these performances and the Giants will need to be in that 9 win range.
RE: Why do people insist on evaluating Jones with such a low bar?
Jones is not the biggest problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution. He is a replaceable piece that you absolutely can't pay big money.
I think it's in the realm of possibilities now the Giants transition tag Jones to gauge the market.
I wouldn't have believed this 2 months ago, but I think there's a possibility Jones is in that tweener band with Jameis Winston, at around 15M a year.
Personally I thought Jones played like a 5-10 QB in this league
last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
RE: RE: Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo
Garoppolo took his team to the super bowl
Took his team to the super bowl is incorrect. He was the QB on a stacked team that took HIM to the super bowl. He managed the game well and got the ball to his playmakers. And he had a Top 3 defense on the other side of the ball.
Jones could absolutely get to the Super Bowl on a stacked team.
The Lions and the Jaguars all of the sudden look like two very formidable opponents the Giants will play later on this season. They will not be pushovers.
Poor DJFC isn't going to have Trevor Lawrence to push around anymore.
Daniel definitely displayed his toughness last night,
he took a beating, but kept at it. And he was let down by his WR's, key drops by Shep and Golladay, and Sills falling down on the game-ending INT. That said, he also displayed his warts too. A couple of the sacks were on him for holding onto the ball too long; on 2 of the sacks, he didn't identify an unblocked blitzer at the LOS; and he showed his glaring lack of pocket awareness. On one sack in the 4th Q, Breida moved over to block a pass rusher, and Jones, rather than stepping up into the pocket, ran right into the rusher.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
Depends on what question you're asking.
If you want to have a great team, Jones is a huge problem. Having Jones as your QB makes it nearly impossible to have that kind of team.
If replacing Jones would have, at any time in his career, changed this team from a joke to a great team I would be first in line to see him go. But that has never been the case.
I'll settle for a competent team that belongs in the NFL first and worry about great later. So yeah maybe jones needs to go in order for the team to win a superbowl. Maybe. But I'm not going to obsess over him when this team still has so many bigger problems.
The walls are literally falling in on the Giants offense.
The template is going to be load up the pass rush on Neal's side, which either takes a RB or TE out of the play.
With Shepard out, one of the WRs in the dog house or a practice squad player will start at WR, which I don't expect to be pretty.
I don't see 9-8, because I think the ceiling on the offense isn't there. I'd guess closer 6-7 wins.
Exactly. And they’ll move on. As Gatorade Dunk mentioned, a team with a rebuilding WR group and an OL still in progress is not going to double down on a veteran QB not drafted by that regime. They’ll opt for the cheaper, rookie QB. Life in the NFL isn’t always fair, plus all the wear and tear on Jones after the season.
There seems to be a conspiracy on BBI still that Mara is going to come in and demand Jones stays. No action has supported that thus far. None.
he took a beating, but kept at it. And he was let down by his WR's, key drops by Shep and Golladay, and Sills falling down on the game-ending INT. That said, he also displayed his warts too. A couple of the sacks were on him for holding onto the ball too long; on 2 of the sacks, he didn't identify an unblocked blitzer at the LOS; and he showed his glaring lack of pocket awareness. On one sack in the 4th Q, Breida moved over to block a pass rusher, and Jones, rather than stepping up into the pocket, ran right into the rusher.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
+1
RE: Personally I thought Jones played like a 5-10 QB in this league
last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Dude you have to take those Big Blue colored glasses off. Nothing he did last night puts him in the Burrow/Wilson category. In that category you have to throw 35 TDs to 12 INTs and score points. Last night Jones threw zero TDs. Running around frantically evading the rush, not throwing many consequential passes, and scoring 16 points, doesn't do it.
RE: I think the far more interesting decision is Saquon
He will want an extension if he continues this pace.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
He will want an extension if he continues this pace.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
I'd give him a decent 2 or 3 year deal - it's not like we are going to be paying for a franchise QB anytime soon.
Add 2 more OLs that can block and add 2 more pass catchers that can....get open and catch. You're telling me THIS offense can't be top 10? It can't be "good" with Jones under center?
I need to know why that can't happen. Not just platitudes either.
Worst WRs in the game. ONe of the worst OLs in terms of pass blocking in the game. The QB accounted for nearly all of the offense both in the air and on the ground and on the biggest play of the game his shit show WR fell down. And when Jones made one of the best plays all season his other shit show WR got flagged for a questionable flag.
I think Jones played extremely well last night. Lamar Jackson might play better. That's about it and last i checked Jackson has about 4 better pass catchers and a better OL than Jones.
I don't know wtf some of you are watching but it's not 2020 anymore.
RE: RE: Personally I thought Jones played like a 5-10 QB in this league
last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Dude you have to take those Big Blue colored glasses off. Nothing he did last night puts him in the Burrow/Wilson category. In that category you have to throw 35 TDs to 12 INTs and score points. Last night Jones threw zero TDs. Running around frantically evading the rush, not throwing many consequential passes, and scoring 16 points, doesn't do it.
I knew referencing other QB names is like moths to a light here. All I was meaning to say was Jones played very well, and in this one game reminded me how I see Burrow usually playing. I did not say he is as good, and of course go right ahead and throw season stats at me to change the subject. I think that Jones played very well last night, and if this was any other teams QB you all would be saying the same. However the built-up dislike for some on Jones doesn't allow you to say that. I also think he's done good this season, we will see how the rest of the season plays out.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
We have to agree to disagree here. It is a little disconcerting though. I did not watch a good QB. I watched a guy. I can'be mad because you see something else. Blue glasses.
If we won that game and Jones looked just OK, I still would have given him a lot of credit. He lost a game that would have changed the course of the season. It matters. I want better
A bunch of QB's are probably winning that game last night.
Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
RE: Daniel definitely displayed his toughness last night,
he took a beating, but kept at it. And he was let down by his WR's, key drops by Shep and Golladay, and Sills falling down on the game-ending INT. That said, he also displayed his warts too. A couple of the sacks were on him for holding onto the ball too long; on 2 of the sacks, he didn't identify an unblocked blitzer at the LOS; and he showed his glaring lack of pocket awareness. On one sack in the 4th Q, Breida moved over to block a pass rusher, and Jones, rather than stepping up into the pocket, ran right into the rusher.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
+2
RE: A bunch of QB's are probably winning that game last night.
Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
He was doing an excellent job buying time, trying to wait until he crappy WR's could get open. You seem to think that every pass needs to get out quick, yet when he does that I bet people would say that he just checks down. What he did last night is exactly what he should have, and what guys like Cousins can not do, buy time with his legs and also get first downs with his legs.
last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Neither is as limited on the types of routes they can throw or their ability to quickly read defenses and know where to go with the ball. Yeah, his good points- straight line speed, toughness were on display but so were his limitations- inability to throw some routes, not reading the defenses quickly, etc.
Nice kid, hard worker. Limited player and overdrafted. Will be a good back up- transition qb somewhere. Move on.
RE: A bunch of QB's are probably winning that game last night.
Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's.
How do you define physicality? You use that word in nearly every post.
It means you beat the man across from you on the lines. Running backs who make defenders pay either when running or pass blocking. WR/TE's who can get off the line and into their route. Who can run block. Front seven and particularly front four personal who can stop the run and impact the passer. OL who move defenders backwards and can pass block.
Yes I use it a lot. Because it is what this franchise has been missing for a decade. I am not expecting you to understand this basic concept of football by most of your previous posts. After all you wanted Eli/TC gone in '12/'13.
Jones is a real NFL player. He's not a guy that we pulled out of the stands. He's a high end backup QB. Guys like that can play. They're just nowhere near good enough for a team to consistently win
Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomess and Aaron Rodgers could have done no better than Daniel Jones? You can't be serious in this evaluation. If you can't see the massive - absolutely massive - disparity in talent in the elite QBs in this league and Daniel Jones, you don't understand what you are watching.
And when is the Oline declared "fixed" so that you can draft a QB? How many teams in this league do you think would say "Our line is awesome. Any QB could play behind this group!" Maybe 3? Good QBs can win with poor lines. Cincinnati went to the Superbowl last year with one of the worst in the league.
We have to agree to disagree here. It is a little disconcerting though. I did not watch a good QB. I watched a guy. I can'be mad because you see something else. Blue glasses.
If we won that game and Jones looked just OK, I still would have given him a lot of credit. He lost a game that would have changed the course of the season. It matters. I want better
You want better? How about we field a professional collection, shit ONE WR. We don't have any.
There were 4 guys on offense last night that are actual professional NFL players. Jones was one of them. The rest will be off this team save for Neal, who looked so bad I don't even want to talk about him because I am scared that's he's just another bust RT here. But it's early for him.
3-4 pro players on offense. Barkley, Thomas, Jones and Maybe Glowinski. The rest are done here by 2023 save for Neal and maybe the kid at guard if he even played. Maybe the rookie TE too.
RE: RE: A bunch of QB's are probably winning that game last night.
Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
We lost a 1 score game and 1 TD could have changed the game. We didn't need someone to be a lot better than Jones was, but plenty of QB's would have done a little more. He made some really good throws that the WR's dropped, but he could have been better too.
Why are we the only team that can't move the ball in the 2 minute drill? Our first half 2 minute drill was embarrassing. Between the 2 minute and our red zone passing offense, it's gotta be one of the worst in the league. A big part of that has to fall on Jones.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
I just want to win. THat said, I can't go with any take that singles out Jones, in a negative light after last night's loss. HE was one of the reasons why we were in the game. This is a hill I will die on, gladly.
Maybe Jones missed some plays or dropped his eyes too soon, sure I can allow that take, but how many plays did he save? How many good throws did he make when many others don't? PLenty. And again, one of the biggest plays of the game by Jones was wiped out due to penalty. That matters.
ONce again the QB has next to NO margin for error, loses a close game and the loss was SQUARELY on the D's inability to get off the field second half and the WRs inability to get open and make a play.
We don't have a single WR that can get open on a consistent basis let alone break a tackle and make a big play. NOt. ONE.
RE: RE: RE: A bunch of QB's are probably winning that game last night.
Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
We lost a 1 score game and 1 TD could have changed the game. We didn't need someone to be a lot better than Jones was, but plenty of QB's would have done a little more. He made some really good throws that the WR's dropped, but he could have been better too.
Why are we the only team that can't move the ball in the 2 minute drill? Our first half 2 minute drill was embarrassing. Between the 2 minute and our red zone passing offense, it's gotta be one of the worst in the league. A big part of that has to fall on Jones.
Did you see the WRs fall down? Dude, we don't have NFL caliber WRs. NOT ONE. At some point talent does play a factor here. I paused and replayed so many plays last night I lost count, I saw time and time again NO WRS open at all.
Wait for SY's take. You can all tip your hat then. Revisit my posts then. Please.
RE: RE: through 3 games Here is what Jones is better at:
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
I am not saying I am bringing him back either. But last night sure as fuck didn't convince me not to. It didn't convince me of anything. I have to laugh at anyone who says otherwise.
Also, unblocked pass-rushers typically leads to a sack or busted unsuccessful play probably more than 50% of the time. How many times did Jones make a decent play when that happened? I'd say more than 50% of the time if I had to bet.
Jones left meat on the bone time and time again I will gladly accept it and move on. I can't see the whole field like some of the scouts with their all-22 can. But what I saw? It was a shit show last night.
I will wait for SY but so far this year he has said exactly what I saw and observed.
Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomess and Aaron Rodgers could have done no better than Daniel Jones? You can't be serious in this evaluation. If you can't see the massive - absolutely massive - disparity in talent in the elite QBs in this league and Daniel Jones, you don't understand what you are watching.
And when is the Oline declared "fixed" so that you can draft a QB? How many teams in this league do you think would say "Our line is awesome. Any QB could play behind this group!" Maybe 3? Good QBs can win with poor lines. Cincinnati went to the Superbowl last year with one of the worst in the league.
Compare Cincy's WR's to the Giants. Conversation end right there as well as credibility to your post imv.
Not even a big Jones fan but not sure why you can't acknowledge what is around Jones is not very good.
You see a Diggs on the outside? Chase?
RE: through 3 games Here is what Jones is better at:
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
Yes, he is absolutely better at those things.
Unfortunately, he is not better at:
1- Pocket presence (when to step up, when to throw)
2- Processing speed
3- Reading post-snap defenses
He would make a fantastic backup QB - probably the best backup in the league. He is not someone you pay franchise QB money.
RE: RE: through 3 games Here is what Jones is better at:
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
Yes, he is absolutely better at those things.
Unfortunately, he is not better at:
1- Pocket presence (when to step up, when to throw)
2- Processing speed
3- Reading post-snap defenses
He would make a fantastic backup QB - probably the best backup in the league. He is not someone you pay franchise QB money.
Fair enough, but fans never want to pay decent QBs because they always think the rookie to be will be better. Not always that simple.
Let it play out. Through 3 games I see a better player in Jones. HE's playing the best ball of his career but yes, he needs to be better. I still say this offense will make anyone look bad even with BArkley and the improved gameplans.
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's. Don't expect the Buffalo perimeter offense to win here at least not to expectations.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's. Don't expect the Buffalo perimeter offense to win here at least not to expectations.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Hogwash
Glad you understand football.
RE: RE: I think the far more interesting decision is Saquon
He will want an extension if he continues this pace.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
Given the injury history and the recent rb contracts given out I think the new deal could be reasonable enough to warrant bringing him back. I could be wrong but I don’t see another team making some offer thats way above what the Giants would pay. If he stays healthy I’d like to bring him back
If you have to talk yourself into him, he’s probably not the guy. Again, I think this has already been determined by the 5th year option not being exercised.
But, how many games do you watch and say “Jones is clearly the better QB on the field?” It isn’t much. Even guys like Taylor Heinicke looked just as good as Jones if not better when they played last year. I know Rush had better protection, but he’s an UDFA and looked just as good. Jones production should be easily replaced with a cheaper option.
People say I’m a Jones hater, but it legit terrifies me as a Giant fan to double down on a QB who needs everything *perfect* to function. It’s not the reality of the NFL.
He was far from the problem last night but there’s the little things that elite QBs do that Jones just doesn’t have in him. It’s year 4 and I don’t think a single coaching staff has trusted him to make a change at the LOS. That’s something that compensated for a poor oline. He does a bad job at identifying where the blitz is coming from pre snap, which is another thing that compensates for a poor oline. When has it ever looked like he slid the protection.
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
I am not saying I am bringing him back either. But last night sure as fuck didn't convince me not to. It didn't convince me of anything. I have to laugh at anyone who says otherwise.
Also, unblocked pass-rushers typically leads to a sack or busted unsuccessful play probably more than 50% of the time. How many times did Jones make a decent play when that happened? I'd say more than 50% of the time if I had to bet.
No one is basing their desire to move on from DJ based on last night's game. But at this point DJs fans are giving him more mulligans than a 5 year old playing mini golf. How many times can one say "That one doesn't count" before concluding that Jones isn't that good?
Like Section331 said he has had a poor supporting cast, and absolutely played his heart out last night, but it can also be true that he's not part of the solution
He was far from the problem last night but there’s the little things that elite QBs do that Jones just doesn’t have in him. It’s year 4 and I don’t think a single coaching staff has trusted him to make a change at the LOS. That’s something that compensated for a poor oline. He does a bad job at identifying where the blitz is coming from pre snap, which is another thing that compensates for a poor oline. When has it ever looked like he slid the protection.
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
Excellent points.
The Giants are in the process of rebuilding the lines.
It doesn't take 1 offseason. We will rebuild the interior oline next offseason. You can't rebuild a QB whos in year 4 and still doesn't do the things you need a starting QB to do. He's just not the guy unfortunately.
Sean. I am a pretty strong lean to replacing him if they can in the draft. I also recognize that the draft may not present the opportunity. I think this is what JS/BD have to determine this year imv. Somebody has to play the position and the team will need to show progress whether its from the draft or elsewhere.
a Mahomes/Jackson/etc differently than the play Jones? This is a playoff team with those guys.
Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.
Great post.
Guys like Mahomes and Rodgers see things so much more clearly than Jones. They could check us into better plays and execute much more dependably. And they can put the ball anywhere on the field with better throwing skills.
A unicorn like Jackson brings the added dimension of being one of the best running backs in the game.
Sorry, OP, but this is a classic case where you can't differentiate between QBs who can make chicken salad and those who can't (like Jones).
We lost by a TD last night. To suggest the real franchise QBs in the NFL couldn't close that gap is embarrassing.
He was far from the problem last night but there’s the little things that elite QBs do that Jones just doesn’t have in him. It’s year 4 and I don’t think a single coaching staff has trusted him to make a change at the LOS. That’s something that compensated for a poor oline. He does a bad job at identifying where the blitz is coming from pre snap, which is another thing that compensates for a poor oline. When has it ever looked like he slid the protection.
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
Yep, and for all the gyrations many are making to support Jones, his rating for the game was sub-60 where ~90 is average.
With this o-line, we will likely still be scratching our heads on whether he is the LT QB at year end. He may screw up his career with these hits too. There were a number of plays where his head hit the turf hard.
25 pressures...I cannot get than number out of my head this morning.
He’s never been a problem? Horseshit
He’s putting toughness on tape. He’s definitely going to get a backup job somewhere next year.
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and got sacked 5 times, hit more than a dozen times, and was pressured on 25 plays.
He’s putting toughness on tape. He’s definitely going to get a backup job somewhere next year.
for certain, he screams spot-starter/first rate backup.
With that said, I still don’t think he’ll be back *if* the season ended today. A lot of times the NFL isn’t fair & Jones has been dealt a shitty hand. But, I think Schoen & Daboll will want a clean slate with their own QB for a few reasons:
1. Barring a trade for a veteran, the QB will be cheaper.
2. The production will not be difficult to replace.
3. Jones will probably be even more beat up by the end of the season when he’s already had an injury history throughout his career.
4. Looking at his full body of work here, has Greg said above - he has not been without blame.
5. This regime did not draft Jones.
I thought Jones was a gamer last night. He’s still got a lot of work to do though for this regime to consider him an option for next year imo.
If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.
The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.
I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.
Last night, even I can admit that is ture.
Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.
I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.
That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.
Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.
Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.
No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.
And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?
If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.
The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.
I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.
Last night, even I can admit that is ture.
As Aikman said last night, the decision has already been made. For Jones to be back next year with a new regime, I think he needs to remove ANY doubt that he is the guy. To date, I don’t think there has been enough production.
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
2)Jones still is a QB with a fairly hard ceiling who will likely end up a backup somewhere else next year
I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.
There just isn’t anything to get excited about.
Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.
I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.
That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.
"yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course."
An argument could be made that he indeed hit on things that could have changed the course. But Golliday, Shep, and Sills all let him down. Several KEY drops, penalties, and slips did him in. Imagine had Shep not been called for a non-existent OPI or dropping a pass that would have led to a 1st down conversion? Imagine had Golliday caught the two deep crossers he dropped? Imagine had Feliciano not decided to take a stroll downfield on the 18 yard screen pickup by Barkley? Imagine Sills NOT falling on the INT?
Jones made plays, and he did it while under extreme duress. The offensive team around him didn't make their plays.
Quote:
But he's also not one of those QBs who can carry a team single handed. And that means he's done here.
He’s never been a problem? Horseshit
I believe I said he "has never been THE problem"
This team has had many many many problems over Jones' career. Even at his worst moments there have always been other, more serious issues.
I know Jones hate is a cottage industry now but I just don't understand the joy you people seem to get from it.
He is not the guy but last night was not on him at all .
I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
Quote:
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.
I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.
There just isn’t anything to get excited about.
Did you see the stat where we've only completed 1 pass over 25 yards this season
You have yo at least try to go deep. Cooper Rush missed a couple guys deep but he kept at it and finally hit a few.
He even hit Lamb in the hands with one but lamb dropped it
Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.
Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.
No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.
And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?
This post should be turned into it's own thread and stickied at the top of the board for the rest of the year
I am sure the new quarterback will play so well that we will be convinced Jones was the problem.
Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.
Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.
Very true.
This is a bingo in my mind. I've learned you are a smart and perceptive poster across multiple sports. But you've put your finger on what I've long considered a key source of the hate on Jones and it stems from Gettleman's pick at six. 90% of us wanted the KY Josh Allen at that slot. As long as Jones is the Giants' starter, hell, as long as he's on the roster, he is living reminder of the franchise wrecking damage machine that Gettleman was, and like the young Leftenant in 'Master Commander' he will never escape that curse in the minds of so many fans. He will never escape the conflation of Gettleman hate with his less than top tier skills as a QB.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Stop
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo
That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.
This is where I start to get a little nervous. If the Giants start grading Jones on a curve, and you squint a little, you can see a functional QB if you try.
That's why I would just rather the Giants really know coming out of this year. Either sink or swim, but I am convinced we're going to see float.
How do you define physicality? You use that word in nearly every post.
Jones did play as well as can be expected last night under awful conditions. I think it was one of the better games he has played since the Saints game last year. And no, not many QBs alone win that game last night.
Having said all of that, does anyone see a guy you franchise next year and pay $30M? Does anyone really want to pay him like a top-5 QB on a long term deal?
Jones is not the biggest problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution. He is a replaceable piece that you absolutely can't pay big money.
Stop
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo
Garoppolo took his team to the super bowl
If you want to build a team that has the 20th best offense in the league and can scrape their way to 9-10 wins if everything else on the team is good, everyone stays healthy, and you get a bunch of breaks....then yeah Jones is not the problem. He can get you there.
If you want to build a consistently good team - the kind of team that hosts and wins playoff games, you need an explosive offense that scores points in bunches and gains yards in chunks through the QB. If you want to have a great team, Jones is a huge problem. Having Jones as your QB makes it nearly impossible to have that kind of team.
I wouldn't call the schedule light. Anything is possible each week. Colts looked like crap the first two weeks and then come home and stun the Chiefs and hold their league leading offense to 17 points. Any Given Sunday.
The Lions and the Jaguars all of the sudden look like two very formidable opponents the Giants will play later on this season. They will not be pushovers.
Next week is very winnable in my eyes (hopefully KT and Robinson are back at WR) and then after that it's @ Packers,
vs. Ravens, @ Jaguars. That's going to be a tough three game stretch.
Everyone was excited about the 2-0 start, myself included. Last night was winnable, but ultimately they are paying for the sins of how recklessly Gettleman was with FA money and how poorly the roster was constructed. That wasn't going to be eradicated in one season. Even with the amount of roster turnover they had, Schoen still was left with limited resources financially to upgrade the roster.
Remember, this is what Jones has always been. Has a nice game followed by a clunker. He’s going to have to string together these performances and the Giants will need to be in that 9 win range.
I think it's in the realm of possibilities now the Giants transition tag Jones to gauge the market.
I wouldn't have believed this 2 months ago, but I think there's a possibility Jones is in that tweener band with Jameis Winston, at around 15M a year.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
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period
Stop
Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.
Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.
He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo
Garoppolo took his team to the super bowl
Took his team to the super bowl is incorrect. He was the QB on a stacked team that took HIM to the super bowl. He managed the game well and got the ball to his playmakers. And he had a Top 3 defense on the other side of the ball.
Jones could absolutely get to the Super Bowl on a stacked team.
Poor DJFC isn't going to have Trevor Lawrence to push around anymore.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
The template is going to be load up the pass rush on Neal's side, which either takes a RB or TE out of the play.
With Shepard out, one of the WRs in the dog house or a practice squad player will start at WR, which I don't expect to be pretty.
I don't see 9-8, because I think the ceiling on the offense isn't there. I'd guess closer 6-7 wins.
If you want to have a great team, Jones is a huge problem. Having Jones as your QB makes it nearly impossible to have that kind of team.
If replacing Jones would have, at any time in his career, changed this team from a joke to a great team I would be first in line to see him go. But that has never been the case.
I'll settle for a competent team that belongs in the NFL first and worry about great later. So yeah maybe jones needs to go in order for the team to win a superbowl. Maybe. But I'm not going to obsess over him when this team still has so many bigger problems.
The template is going to be load up the pass rush on Neal's side, which either takes a RB or TE out of the play.
With Shepard out, one of the WRs in the dog house or a practice squad player will start at WR, which I don't expect to be pretty.
I don't see 9-8, because I think the ceiling on the offense isn't there. I'd guess closer 6-7 wins.
Exactly. And they’ll move on. As Gatorade Dunk mentioned, a team with a rebuilding WR group and an OL still in progress is not going to double down on a veteran QB not drafted by that regime. They’ll opt for the cheaper, rookie QB. Life in the NFL isn’t always fair, plus all the wear and tear on Jones after the season.
There seems to be a conspiracy on BBI still that Mara is going to come in and demand Jones stays. No action has supported that thus far. None.
Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Otherwise we will be back here arguing over whether our new quarterback is any good as he gets pummeled by opposing defences.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
+1
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Dude you have to take those Big Blue colored glasses off. Nothing he did last night puts him in the Burrow/Wilson category. In that category you have to throw 35 TDs to 12 INTs and score points. Last night Jones threw zero TDs. Running around frantically evading the rush, not throwing many consequential passes, and scoring 16 points, doesn't do it.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
Sure he did, sure *pats head*
Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Otherwise we will be back here arguing over whether our new quarterback is any good as he gets pummeled by opposing defences.
No, Daniel Jones didn't do as well as any QB would do. Elite talents would likely do much better. Jones is a bottom tier talent in this league.
You don't pay a RB big money, especially if you suck.
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He will want an extension if he continues this pace.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
I'd give him a decent 2 or 3 year deal - it's not like we are going to be paying for a franchise QB anytime soon.
I need to know why that can't happen. Not just platitudes either.
Worst WRs in the game. ONe of the worst OLs in terms of pass blocking in the game. The QB accounted for nearly all of the offense both in the air and on the ground and on the biggest play of the game his shit show WR fell down. And when Jones made one of the best plays all season his other shit show WR got flagged for a questionable flag.
I think Jones played extremely well last night. Lamar Jackson might play better. That's about it and last i checked Jackson has about 4 better pass catchers and a better OL than Jones.
I don't know wtf some of you are watching but it's not 2020 anymore.
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last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Dude you have to take those Big Blue colored glasses off. Nothing he did last night puts him in the Burrow/Wilson category. In that category you have to throw 35 TDs to 12 INTs and score points. Last night Jones threw zero TDs. Running around frantically evading the rush, not throwing many consequential passes, and scoring 16 points, doesn't do it.
I knew referencing other QB names is like moths to a light here. All I was meaning to say was Jones played very well, and in this one game reminded me how I see Burrow usually playing. I did not say he is as good, and of course go right ahead and throw season stats at me to change the subject. I think that Jones played very well last night, and if this was any other teams QB you all would be saying the same. However the built-up dislike for some on Jones doesn't allow you to say that. I also think he's done good this season, we will see how the rest of the season plays out.
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
If we won that game and Jones looked just OK, I still would have given him a lot of credit. He lost a game that would have changed the course of the season. It matters. I want better
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I think everyone agrees that he has been dealt a bad hand in his tenure here, but he has done little to show that he would be an upper-tier starter with a good cast around him.
+2
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
He was doing an excellent job buying time, trying to wait until he crappy WR's could get open. You seem to think that every pass needs to get out quick, yet when he does that I bet people would say that he just checks down. What he did last night is exactly what he should have, and what guys like Cousins can not do, buy time with his legs and also get first downs with his legs.
I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
Nice kid, hard worker. Limited player and overdrafted. Will be a good back up- transition qb somewhere. Move on.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
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QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's.
How do you define physicality? You use that word in nearly every post.
It means you beat the man across from you on the lines. Running backs who make defenders pay either when running or pass blocking. WR/TE's who can get off the line and into their route. Who can run block. Front seven and particularly front four personal who can stop the run and impact the passer. OL who move defenders backwards and can pass block.
Yes I use it a lot. Because it is what this franchise has been missing for a decade. I am not expecting you to understand this basic concept of football by most of your previous posts. After all you wanted Eli/TC gone in '12/'13.
Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomess and Aaron Rodgers could have done no better than Daniel Jones? You can't be serious in this evaluation. If you can't see the massive - absolutely massive - disparity in talent in the elite QBs in this league and Daniel Jones, you don't understand what you are watching.
And when is the Oline declared "fixed" so that you can draft a QB? How many teams in this league do you think would say "Our line is awesome. Any QB could play behind this group!" Maybe 3? Good QBs can win with poor lines. Cincinnati went to the Superbowl last year with one of the worst in the league.
If we won that game and Jones looked just OK, I still would have given him a lot of credit. He lost a game that would have changed the course of the season. It matters. I want better
You want better? How about we field a professional collection, shit ONE WR. We don't have any.
There were 4 guys on offense last night that are actual professional NFL players. Jones was one of them. The rest will be off this team save for Neal, who looked so bad I don't even want to talk about him because I am scared that's he's just another bust RT here. But it's early for him.
3-4 pro players on offense. Barkley, Thomas, Jones and Maybe Glowinski. The rest are done here by 2023 save for Neal and maybe the kid at guard if he even played. Maybe the rookie TE too.
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Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
We lost a 1 score game and 1 TD could have changed the game. We didn't need someone to be a lot better than Jones was, but plenty of QB's would have done a little more. He made some really good throws that the WR's dropped, but he could have been better too.
Why are we the only team that can't move the ball in the 2 minute drill? Our first half 2 minute drill was embarrassing. Between the 2 minute and our red zone passing offense, it's gotta be one of the worst in the league. A big part of that has to fall on Jones.
YEa, probably not a single one. Nice reach there.
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
Maybe Jones missed some plays or dropped his eyes too soon, sure I can allow that take, but how many plays did he save? How many good throws did he make when many others don't? PLenty. And again, one of the biggest plays of the game by Jones was wiped out due to penalty. That matters.
ONce again the QB has next to NO margin for error, loses a close game and the loss was SQUARELY on the D's inability to get off the field second half and the WRs inability to get open and make a play.
We don't have a single WR that can get open on a consistent basis let alone break a tackle and make a big play. NOt. ONE.
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In comment 15834448 Kmed6000 said:
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Yes he was pressure a lot, but he holds onto the ball so much and has terrible pocket presence. Good QB's feel the rush and move to open spots and then continue to look downfield, Jones never does that. He's just looking downfield and has no idea where the rush is.
Tons of guys get pressured, but they are able to feel it and move and find someone.
I have a hard time agreeing but fine, yes a lot of QBs beat pressure--but dude we have Crosby Stills and Nash at WR!
The 1986 NYG WRs at week 8 were better than this slop. Remember how bad Simms looked halfway through that season? Simms gets his fucking block knocked off last night and he's a legendary NYG figure.
Jones was good last night. He did his part to lead the team to 20+ points but a blocked FG and brutal penalty took pts off the board. I am not saying he's great or he's the long term answer, but how the fuck can anyone come to a conclusion that he's not the answer, based on last night? Yea That's horse shit.
We lost a 1 score game and 1 TD could have changed the game. We didn't need someone to be a lot better than Jones was, but plenty of QB's would have done a little more. He made some really good throws that the WR's dropped, but he could have been better too.
Why are we the only team that can't move the ball in the 2 minute drill? Our first half 2 minute drill was embarrassing. Between the 2 minute and our red zone passing offense, it's gotta be one of the worst in the league. A big part of that has to fall on Jones.
Did you see the WRs fall down? Dude, we don't have NFL caliber WRs. NOT ONE. At some point talent does play a factor here. I paused and replayed so many plays last night I lost count, I saw time and time again NO WRS open at all.
Wait for SY's take. You can all tip your hat then. Revisit my posts then. Please.
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-He's a better scrambler. Like a LOT better.
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
I am not saying I am bringing him back either. But last night sure as fuck didn't convince me not to. It didn't convince me of anything. I have to laugh at anyone who says otherwise.
Also, unblocked pass-rushers typically leads to a sack or busted unsuccessful play probably more than 50% of the time. How many times did Jones make a decent play when that happened? I'd say more than 50% of the time if I had to bet.
I will wait for SY but so far this year he has said exactly what I saw and observed.
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Jones did as well as any quarterback in the league would have done given the situation.
Before we draft another quarterback can fix the f-ing line! And get some receivers.
Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomess and Aaron Rodgers could have done no better than Daniel Jones? You can't be serious in this evaluation. If you can't see the massive - absolutely massive - disparity in talent in the elite QBs in this league and Daniel Jones, you don't understand what you are watching.
And when is the Oline declared "fixed" so that you can draft a QB? How many teams in this league do you think would say "Our line is awesome. Any QB could play behind this group!" Maybe 3? Good QBs can win with poor lines. Cincinnati went to the Superbowl last year with one of the worst in the league.
Compare Cincy's WR's to the Giants. Conversation end right there as well as credibility to your post imv.
Not even a big Jones fan but not sure why you can't acknowledge what is around Jones is not very good.
You see a Diggs on the outside? Chase?
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
Yes, he is absolutely better at those things.
Unfortunately, he is not better at:
1- Pocket presence (when to step up, when to throw)
2- Processing speed
3- Reading post-snap defenses
He would make a fantastic backup QB - probably the best backup in the league. He is not someone you pay franchise QB money.
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-He's a better scrambler. Like a LOT better.
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
Yes, he is absolutely better at those things.
Unfortunately, he is not better at:
1- Pocket presence (when to step up, when to throw)
2- Processing speed
3- Reading post-snap defenses
He would make a fantastic backup QB - probably the best backup in the league. He is not someone you pay franchise QB money.
Fair enough, but fans never want to pay decent QBs because they always think the rookie to be will be better. Not always that simple.
Let it play out. Through 3 games I see a better player in Jones. HE's playing the best ball of his career but yes, he needs to be better. I still say this offense will make anyone look bad even with BArkley and the improved gameplans.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Hogwash
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QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's. Don't expect the Buffalo perimeter offense to win here at least not to expectations.
Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Hogwash
Glad you understand football.
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He will want an extension if he continues this pace.
I agree. I have never been a big fan of his in the past, but he is making me a believer this year. He's changed how he runs, for the better - cut out the dancing and slash upfield. I've loved what I've seen from him this year.
Still, the rub is what kind of contract would you be willing to give a guy with his injury history.
Given the injury history and the recent rb contracts given out I think the new deal could be reasonable enough to warrant bringing him back. I could be wrong but I don’t see another team making some offer thats way above what the Giants would pay. If he stays healthy I’d like to bring him back
But, how many games do you watch and say “Jones is clearly the better QB on the field?” It isn’t much. Even guys like Taylor Heinicke looked just as good as Jones if not better when they played last year. I know Rush had better protection, but he’s an UDFA and looked just as good. Jones production should be easily replaced with a cheaper option.
People say I’m a Jones hater, but it legit terrifies me as a Giant fan to double down on a QB who needs everything *perfect* to function. It’s not the reality of the NFL.
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
But the offense is so devoid of talent.
I absolutely acknowledge that. Just look at the WR group and interior OL. Still, committing to him further makes absolutely zero sense imo.
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In comment 15834415 djm said:
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-He's a better scrambler. Like a LOT better.
-He's better at protecting the ball.
-He's better at avoiding the rush and turning nothing into something (not the same as point 1)
Try and watch the guy without the voice of big bad DG in your head. HE's gone. Try and be fair and watch the guy with an objective POV. No one cares if your stupid DJ hot takes from the last few years prove to be wrong.
I'm going to disagree with point 3, his pocket awareness continues to be a big problem. Rather than stepping up into the pocket, he runs out of it and into pressure. He also failed to recognize unblocked pass rushers twice that led to sacks. He's the QB, that is his responsibility.
He is tough, he is dealing with awful pass pro and a bad WR corps, but he has done little to show that he would be successful even with a better supporting cast. If he was still on a rookie deal next year, sure, then maybe you bring him back, but now it's at what cost?
I am not saying I am bringing him back either. But last night sure as fuck didn't convince me not to. It didn't convince me of anything. I have to laugh at anyone who says otherwise.
Also, unblocked pass-rushers typically leads to a sack or busted unsuccessful play probably more than 50% of the time. How many times did Jones make a decent play when that happened? I'd say more than 50% of the time if I had to bet.
No one is basing their desire to move on from DJ based on last night's game. But at this point DJs fans are giving him more mulligans than a 5 year old playing mini golf. How many times can one say "That one doesn't count" before concluding that Jones isn't that good?
Like Section331 said he has had a poor supporting cast, and absolutely played his heart out last night, but it can also be true that he's not part of the solution
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
Excellent points.
Sean. I am a pretty strong lean to replacing him if they can in the draft. I also recognize that the draft may not present the opportunity. I think this is what JS/BD have to determine this year imv. Somebody has to play the position and the team will need to show progress whether its from the draft or elsewhere.
Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.
Great post.
Guys like Mahomes and Rodgers see things so much more clearly than Jones. They could check us into better plays and execute much more dependably. And they can put the ball anywhere on the field with better throwing skills.
A unicorn like Jackson brings the added dimension of being one of the best running backs in the game.
Sorry, OP, but this is a classic case where you can't differentiate between QBs who can make chicken salad and those who can't (like Jones).
We lost by a TD last night. To suggest the real franchise QBs in the NFL couldn't close that gap is embarrassing.
bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha....sure, sure they are
There were plays were Cooper Rush even saw there was a mismatch pre snap and got the ball out almost immediately to exploit the mismatch.
Yep, and for all the gyrations many are making to support Jones, his rating for the game was sub-60 where ~90 is average.
I'll give him a break on YPA, but QBR takes into account overall decision making and < 50 is just not good.