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What QB in the league was winning last night

kelly : 9/27/2022 7:37 am
Behind the giant offensive line and throwing to our wide receivers?

Answer-no one

Jones may not be the solution but he clearly is not the problem.
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I agree  
Mark from Jersey : 9/27/2022 7:50 am : link
The offensive line was in shambles. One of the worst showings in recent memory and our OL has sucked for a decade+.
RE: I agree  
rnargi : 9/27/2022 7:52 am : link
In comment 15834141 Mark from Jersey said:
Quote:
The offensive line was in shambles. One of the worst showings in recent memory and our OL has sucked for a decade+.


25 pressures...I cannot get than number out of my head this morning.
It really is unbelievable  
kelly : 9/27/2022 7:53 am : link
That we cannot fix the offensive line after 10 years of trying.
I still am holding out my opinion  
5BowlsSoon : 9/27/2022 7:54 am : link
In hope of a turn a round as the season progresses.
Jones has never been the problem  
TJ : 9/27/2022 7:58 am : link
But he's also not one of those QBs who can carry a team single handed. And that means he's done here.
Lamar Jackson, maybe  
islander1 : 9/27/2022 7:59 am : link
.
RE: Jones has never been the problem  
Greg from LI : 9/27/2022 8:03 am : link
In comment 15834151 TJ said:
Quote:
But he's also not one of those QBs who can carry a team single handed. And that means he's done here.


He’s never been a problem? Horseshit
Jones accounted for 275 of their 363 yards ast night....  
rnargi : 9/27/2022 8:05 am : link
and got sacked 5 times, hit more than a dozen times, and was pressured on 25 plays.
RE: Jones accounted for 275 of their 363 yards ast night....  
Sammo85 : 9/27/2022 8:10 am : link
In comment 15834160 rnargi said:
Quote:
and got sacked 5 times, hit more than a dozen times, and was pressured on 25 plays.


He’s putting toughness on tape. He’s definitely going to get a backup job somewhere next year.
RE: RE: Jones accounted for 275 of their 363 yards ast night....  
islander1 : 9/27/2022 8:12 am : link
In comment 15834168 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 15834160 rnargi said:


Quote:


and got sacked 5 times, hit more than a dozen times, and was pressured on 25 plays.



He’s putting toughness on tape. He’s definitely going to get a backup job somewhere next year.


for certain, he screams spot-starter/first rate backup.
Jones played very well  
Sean : 9/27/2022 8:13 am : link
He has always been a weapon with his legs & his WR’s let him down last night. I was quick to blame him for that INT in the game thread which I was wrong. Frustration got the best of me and it was a bad job by me.

With that said, I still don’t think he’ll be back *if* the season ended today. A lot of times the NFL isn’t fair & Jones has been dealt a shitty hand. But, I think Schoen & Daboll will want a clean slate with their own QB for a few reasons:

1. Barring a trade for a veteran, the QB will be cheaper.
2. The production will not be difficult to replace.
3. Jones will probably be even more beat up by the end of the season when he’s already had an injury history throughout his career.
4. Looking at his full body of work here, has Greg said above - he has not been without blame.
5. This regime did not draft Jones.

I thought Jones was a gamer last night. He’s still got a lot of work to do though for this regime to consider him an option for next year imo.
...  
christian : 9/27/2022 8:16 am : link
It all depends on what you define as the goal.

If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.

The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.

I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.

Last night, even I can admit that is ture.

Again, as I said in my own thread  
jvm52106 : 9/27/2022 8:18 am : link
you can be honest in your assessment of Jones and know that he was doing all he could alst night and we were still in the game and yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course.

Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.

I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.

That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.

This is the problem that so many fans run into  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/27/2022 8:20 am : link
The OP is right that the situation that DJ was in last night is so far from optimal that it's alarming. The OP is right that DJ was under a lot of pressure last night, and that his receivers were meh, at best.

Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.

Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.

No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.

And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?
RE: ...  
Sean : 9/27/2022 8:21 am : link
In comment 15834182 christian said:
Quote:
It all depends on what you define as the goal.

If the goal is operate like an average to below average offense -- Jones can probably be your guy. And then he's certainly not the problem.

The offensive line and receivers simply are not functioning.

I predicted this before the season. The chorus that this a make or break or else season for Jones, will fall way to there are too many problems to make heads or tails of who he really is.

Last night, even I can admit that is ture.

As Aikman said last night, the decision has already been made. For Jones to be back next year with a new regime, I think he needs to remove ANY doubt that he is the guy. To date, I don’t think there has been enough production.

The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.
2 things can be true at the same time  
Greg from LI : 9/27/2022 8:24 am : link
1)Jones played as well as he could despite being kneecapped by terrible play on the part of the OL and WRs all night, giving him very little to work with

2)Jones still is a QB with a fairly hard ceiling who will likely end up a backup somewhere else next year
I’d like to see some big plays out of the passing game.  
cosmicj : 9/27/2022 8:27 am : link
We are now on a second system in three years and the Jones-led offense continues a pattern of low scoring move the chains results.

I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.

There just isn’t anything to get excited about.
As long as the real evaluators  
ChrisRick : 9/27/2022 8:28 am : link
(Coaching staff and GM) are making the decision on Jones then I am fine with what they decide. I am ready to move on from Jones, but I feel the need to trust these decision makers until they prove otherwise

RE: Again, as I said in my own thread  
rnargi : 9/27/2022 8:29 am : link
In comment 15834186 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
you can be honest in your assessment of Jones and know that he was doing all he could alst night and we were still in the game and yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course.

Ultimately, we lost because of our defense. The Boys put up 23 points on a night where our defense created no real pressure on the QB and caused zero turnovers. Yet, we still were in the game. Could a better QB have made the passes that Jones didn't? Maybe but that QB would also have to be mobile.

I think Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Murray (his running skills would have made Dallas unwilling to rush so freely) and Jackson all could have led us to victory last night because the defense fears them more than they fear Jones.

That isn't a huge list, so it isn't a knock on Jones but just being honest, Dallas teed off because our skill guys are crap and they don't fear Jones. They fear him as our 2nd best chance to make plays (Barkley #1) but those plays are minimal in terms of hurt and or damage they can cause so the risk reward for going after him is low on the left and very HIGH on the right.


"yet- he missed some things that could have changed the course."

An argument could be made that he indeed hit on things that could have changed the course. But Golliday, Shep, and Sills all let him down. Several KEY drops, penalties, and slips did him in. Imagine had Shep not been called for a non-existent OPI or dropping a pass that would have led to a 1st down conversion? Imagine had Golliday caught the two deep crossers he dropped? Imagine had Feliciano not decided to take a stroll downfield on the 18 yard screen pickup by Barkley? Imagine Sills NOT falling on the INT?

Jones made plays, and he did it while under extreme duress. The offensive team around him didn't make their plays.
OL  
Giants : 9/27/2022 8:30 am : link
It's beginning to feel like the season has changed. Now it has become the OL prove it season. Clearly a few of these OL will not be back next season
RE: RE: Jones has never been the problem  
TJ : 9/27/2022 8:30 am : link
In comment 15834156 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15834151 TJ said:


Quote:


But he's also not one of those QBs who can carry a team single handed. And that means he's done here.



He’s never been a problem? Horseshit


I believe I said he "has never been THE problem"
This team has had many many many problems over Jones' career. Even at his worst moments there have always been other, more serious issues.
I know Jones hate is a cottage industry now but I just don't understand the joy you people seem to get from it.
Joy?  
Greg from LI : 9/27/2022 8:35 am : link
I was furious the instant Mr. Magoo drafted this guy, having seen him play quite a bit for Duke and never being particularly impressed by him. Never wanted him on the Giants, and nothing he's ever done has convinced me otherwise. The only joy will come when a better QB replaces him.
Jones is most certainly not the solution.  
chick310 : 9/27/2022 8:36 am : link
He gave it his all last night though.
Jones played as well as he can play  
averagejoe : 9/27/2022 8:37 am : link
under very difficult circumstances . That is the problem. Last night was the ceiling for Jones. He had pressure, took hits, ran the ball to keep drives alive, was very accurate on underneath throws . Effective game manager. But check downs don't win games. When he is rushed he is not elusive and gets sacked. When he has clean pocket he holds the ball and gets sacked . When he makes a throw downfield WRs are so stunned they drop perfect passes...Shepard...Golladay...

He is not the guy but last night was not on him at all .
Jones may be back next year  
Bleedblue10 : 9/27/2022 8:39 am : link
Because I know we have a ton of holes and not a lot of real quality players but this team has a lite schedule and will compete which is all we can ask for when actually rebuilding(not what DG called rebuilding, this is a true tear down). So we probably won’t be drafting in the top 5 and we have too many holes to give up a plethora of picks to move up. Jones more than likely is back by default unless a veteran that interests them (Lamar?) somehow shakes free of his current team
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 9/27/2022 8:44 am : link
In comment 15834191 Sean said:
Quote:
The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.


I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.

But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Sean : 9/27/2022 8:49 am : link
In comment 15834244 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15834191 Sean said:


Quote:


The ‘prove it’ year is always the third season prior to the 5th year option decision. Jones feels a lot like Trubisky does when he was in his 5th season. Only Jones doesn’t have the GM who drafted him still.



I'm not saying the Giants will keep Jones. If I had to guess today, I'd agree he's gone.

But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.

That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.
RE: I’d like to see some big plays out of the passing game.  
riceneggs : 9/27/2022 8:53 am : link
In comment 15834202 cosmicj said:
Quote:
We are now on a second system in three years and the Jones-led offense continues a pattern of low scoring move the chains results.

I loved Jones 4th quarter sideline pass to Richie James. It was the most exciting play I’ve seen Jones make in quite a while. But he needs to be making these types of throws regularly.

There just isn’t anything to get excited about.


Did you see the stat where we've only completed 1 pass over 25 yards this season

You have yo at least try to go deep. Cooper Rush missed a couple guys deep but he kept at it and finally hit a few.

He even hit Lamb in the hands with one but lamb dropped it

People blaming DJ needs  
TruBlue56 : 9/27/2022 8:54 am : link
to take off their shit colored glasses when looking at DJ.
RE: This is the problem that so many fans run into  
BigBlue7 : 9/27/2022 8:55 am : link
In comment 15834190 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
The OP is right that the situation that DJ was in last night is so far from optimal that it's alarming. The OP is right that DJ was under a lot of pressure last night, and that his receivers were meh, at best.

Where it goes off the rails is when you offer this as proof that DJ is not the problem.

Part of the issue seems to be that some fans seem to limit their thinking to binary outcomes only. IOW, there were other problems last night, so DJ could not possibly be the problem.

No, that's not how it works. They can all be problems.

And it's irrelevant anyway. If the OL and WR still need to be rebuilt yet again, why bother paying veteran rates for your unproven QB?


This post should be turned into it's own thread and stickied at the top of the board for the rest of the year
I have an idea  
kelly : 9/27/2022 8:55 am : link
Let's spend multiple high draft picks to draft a quarterback and then put him behind this offensive line and have him throw to our wide receivers.

I am sure the new quarterback will play so well that we will be convinced Jones was the problem.
you don't think defenses would play  
UConn4523 : 9/27/2022 8:57 am : link
a Mahomes/Jackson/etc differently than the play Jones? This is a playoff team with those guys.

Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.
RE: you don't think defenses would play  
Sean : 9/27/2022 8:59 am : link
In comment 15834275 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a Mahomes/Jackson/etc differently than the play Jones? This is a playoff team with those guys.

Jones was dealt a terrible hand in last nights game but he's also not good enough on top of it.

Very true.
RE: Joy?  
ColHowPepper : 9/27/2022 9:01 am : link
In comment 15834222 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I was furious the instant Mr. Magoo drafted this guy, having seen him play quite a bit for Duke and never being particularly impressed by him. Never wanted him on the Giants, and nothing he's ever done has convinced me otherwise. The only joy will come when a better QB replaces him.

This is a bingo in my mind. I've learned you are a smart and perceptive poster across multiple sports. But you've put your finger on what I've long considered a key source of the hate on Jones and it stems from Gettleman's pick at six. 90% of us wanted the KY Josh Allen at that slot. As long as Jones is the Giants' starter, hell, as long as he's on the roster, he is living reminder of the franchise wrecking damage machine that Gettleman was, and like the young Leftenant in 'Master Commander' he will never escape that curse in the minds of so many fans. He will never escape the conflation of Gettleman hate with his less than top tier skills as a QB.

The problem has not been  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/27/2022 9:02 am : link
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's. Don't expect the Buffalo perimeter offense to win here at least not to expectations.

Jones needs to be better and I have said the fact that he becomes very expensive quickly needs to be a strong factor moving forward (I'm in favor of a rookie if it is feasible). But they still need to address the underlying issue of restoring the physicality that was destroyed over the last decade.
Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent  
BigBlue7 : 9/27/2022 9:02 am : link
period

Stop

Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.

Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.

He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo
...  
christian : 9/27/2022 9:09 am : link
In comment 15834254 Sean said:
Quote:
But if the Giants grade Jones on the smart, tough, reliable index, he scores high in games like las night. And in the absence of a functional playing field to evaluate him, I think his odds go up not down.


That’s fair. The season is also way young. If he hangs in and plays a full season and the team goes like 9-8, it’s entirely possible he’s back. The offense will need to produce though.


This is where I start to get a little nervous. If the Giants start grading Jones on a curve, and you squint a little, you can see a functional QB if you try.

That's why I would just rather the Giants really know coming out of this year. Either sink or swim, but I am convinced we're going to see float.
RE: The problem has not been  
christian : 9/27/2022 9:11 am : link
In comment 15834285 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
QB despite some posters stupidly putting it on that position for a decade. JS/BD need to recognize this is the NFCE not the AFCE. This division is about physicality. It is why they have all those SB's.


How do you define physicality? You use that word in nearly every post.
He played a gutsy game but he's just not good enough  
Producer : 9/27/2022 9:12 am : link
It's year 4. If you think you still have to evaluate him, you have your answer. It would be organizational malpractice to bring him back next year. If they do, then Daboll and Schoen are incompetent fools.
Why do people insist on evaluating Jones with such a low bar?  
Mike from Ohio : 9/27/2022 9:13 am : link
"He wasn't the reason they lost, so he is good!!!"

Jones did play as well as can be expected last night under awful conditions. I think it was one of the better games he has played since the Saints game last year. And no, not many QBs alone win that game last night.

Having said all of that, does anyone see a guy you franchise next year and pay $30M? Does anyone really want to pay him like a top-5 QB on a long term deal?

Jones is not the biggest problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution. He is a replaceable piece that you absolutely can't pay big money.
RE: Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent  
TheBlueprintNC : 9/27/2022 9:13 am : link
In comment 15834286 BigBlue7 said:
Quote:
period

Stop

Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.

Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.

He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo


Garoppolo took his team to the super bowl
Whether Jones is THE problem  
Jerry in_DC : 9/27/2022 9:15 am : link
Depends on what question you're asking.

If you want to build a team that has the 20th best offense in the league and can scrape their way to 9-10 wins if everything else on the team is good, everyone stays healthy, and you get a bunch of breaks....then yeah Jones is not the problem. He can get you there.

If you want to build a consistently good team - the kind of team that hosts and wins playoff games, you need an explosive offense that scores points in bunches and gains yards in chunks through the QB. If you want to have a great team, Jones is a huge problem. Having Jones as your QB makes it nearly impossible to have that kind of team.
I see it differently  
UConn4523 : 9/27/2022 9:16 am : link
everything Schoen has done up to this point suggests that they want an upgrade in talent at every position they can. I have no doubt in my mind that Daboll can pretty accurately see what he has in Jones between practice and the games. That combination leads me to believe that Jones won't be here next season save for a crazy productive rest of the year.
RE: Jones may be back next year  
Costy16 : 9/27/2022 9:17 am : link
In comment 15834237 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
Because I know we have a ton of holes and not a lot of real quality players but this team has a lite schedule and will compete which is all we can ask for when actually rebuilding(not what DG called rebuilding, this is a true tear down). So we probably won’t be drafting in the top 5 and we have too many holes to give up a plethora of picks to move up. Jones more than likely is back by default unless a veteran that interests them (Lamar?) somehow shakes free of his current team


I wouldn't call the schedule light. Anything is possible each week. Colts looked like crap the first two weeks and then come home and stun the Chiefs and hold their league leading offense to 17 points. Any Given Sunday.

The Lions and the Jaguars all of the sudden look like two very formidable opponents the Giants will play later on this season. They will not be pushovers.

Next week is very winnable in my eyes (hopefully KT and Robinson are back at WR) and then after that it's @ Packers,
vs. Ravens, @ Jaguars. That's going to be a tough three game stretch.

Everyone was excited about the 2-0 start, myself included. Last night was winnable, but ultimately they are paying for the sins of how recklessly Gettleman was with FA money and how poorly the roster was constructed. That wasn't going to be eradicated in one season. Even with the amount of roster turnover they had, Schoen still was left with limited resources financially to upgrade the roster.
christian  
Sean : 9/27/2022 9:17 am : link
‘Float’ is going to have to include wins though. Being in playoff contention until the end of the year. Probably sweeping WFT and stealing a win against Dallas or Philly. Winning all the games they should. And most importantly, scoring TD’s in the red zone. And some explosive plays.

Remember, this is what Jones has always been. Has a nice game followed by a clunker. He’s going to have to string together these performances and the Giants will need to be in that 9 win range.
RE: Why do people insist on evaluating Jones with such a low bar?  
christian : 9/27/2022 9:17 am : link
In comment 15834301 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Jones is not the biggest problem on this team, but he is also not part of the solution. He is a replaceable piece that you absolutely can't pay big money.


I think it's in the realm of possibilities now the Giants transition tag Jones to gauge the market.

I wouldn't have believed this 2 months ago, but I think there's a possibility Jones is in that tweener band with Jameis Winston, at around 15M a year.
Personally I thought Jones played like a 5-10 QB in this league  
PatersonPlank : 9/27/2022 9:18 am : link
last night. I absolutely do not think a Cousins or Tannehill would be able to evade the rush and hit the passes last night that Jones did, so if you think they are ~#15ish then Jones was better. To me he looked a lot like a Burrows or Wilson, the way he evaded the rush, used his legs to get first downs, and make passes down the field.

I will bet Daboll grades him out very high, as will the rest of the league
RE: RE: Daniel Jones isn't good enough to overcome poor supporting talent  
BigBlue7 : 9/27/2022 9:18 am : link
In comment 15834302 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
In comment 15834286 BigBlue7 said:


Quote:


period

Stop

Daniel jones is the perfect backup QB. Can make the random play. is now super conservative. Can get some first downs with his legs. Film and Practice nut.

Absolutely everything you'd want in a backup QB. Can win plenty of games with a good team around him.

He's basically Jimmy Garoppolo



Garoppolo took his team to the super bowl


Took his team to the super bowl is incorrect. He was the QB on a stacked team that took HIM to the super bowl. He managed the game well and got the ball to his playmakers. And he had a Top 3 defense on the other side of the ball.

Jones could absolutely get to the Super Bowl on a stacked team.
Giants are not going 9 - 8  
ColHowPepper : 9/27/2022 9:19 am : link
this season, come on. Your worries will be allayed. The roster is far too barren at too many positions.
RE: RE: Jones may be back next year  
Greg from LI : 9/27/2022 9:22 am : link
In comment 15834313 Costy16 said:
Quote:
The Lions and the Jaguars all of the sudden look like two very formidable opponents the Giants will play later on this season. They will not be pushovers.


Poor DJFC isn't going to have Trevor Lawrence to push around anymore.
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