Are you nuts? Did you watch the game? There were multiple times last night that even after extending the play with his legs Jones had to throw the ball away because our receivers aren't open. The Oline is awful.
How does the QB who holds the ball the longest in the NFL not have time to throw? What that metric tells you is that nobody in the league is holding the ball longer than Jones.
He's shown zero ability to process what he's seeing. He has all of the physical tools and few of the mental tools needed to play QB. It's over, time to move on.
This stat doesn't show the OL isn't bad. This shows Jones has to constantly adjust to keep plays alive. Look at Rush. Everyone raves about how fast he gets the ball out. Doesn't Dallas' OL suck because he gets the ball out quick?
I think a big factor is also him buying time by scrambling as he’s often under duress on most pass plays. If you look at that list Lamar Jackson, Mariota, Cousins, even Herbert and Russel Wilson aren’t too far off of Jones’ number. Are those guys all as bad as him? Of course not, but they are mobile and are able to buy time.
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
I'm not sure this stat shows what you think it shows
After looking at the table it seems that the more mobile QBs are at the bottom, which could likely mean that these guys are buying more time with their movement in the pocket (which is a good thing). So guys like Lamar, Fields, and Jones are scrambling around waiting for someone to get open (thus driving up the stat), while immobile guys like Brady, Rodgers, and Jimmy G rely on a quicker release because they can't buy that much time (put Eli on this list).
I'm not sure how its calculated, but at a surface level read this could be what its showing not some slow decision making (which would mean Lamar is slow too then?).
I think a big factor is also him buying time by scrambling as he’s often under duress on most pass plays. If you look at that list Lamar Jackson, Mariota, Cousins, even Herbert and Russel Wilson aren’t too far off of Jones’ number. Are those guys all as bad as him? Of course not, but they are mobile and are able to buy time.
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
Last night he was last on the pecking order. With a Diggs or Chase type of WR I bet we see a few big connections downfield with how he was able to escape pressure. So he "elevated" the OL but then the WR's did not enable him to "elevate" them imv.
understand them within the context of the game. DJ had 5+ plays where he held onto the ball for 6-7 seconds because the pocket broke down immediately and he needed to escape to find a throwing lane. Dallas was also playing press and jamming the WR's off the line; if guys aren't getting open then you will have to hold the ball longer. Anyone who thinks that this is "proof" that DJ had a bad game isn't understanding the big picture.
Of half the posters on this site trying to bury Jones last night. I get it if you hated the draft pick and have an agenda, but to cherry pick this stat and act like you know about football to do it...
Reminder to folks, he’s in a new offense (his 3rd). I’m guessing his slow reads in weeks 1/2, we’re attributed to his unfamiliarity with the offense and having the worst WR corp in the league.
Not saying he’s the answer, but he seemed to make some progress in Daboll/Kafka’s O last night.
What WRs are open? You cannot throw if the WRs aren't open and you have to run for your life....
And yes he holds the ball too long, but I cannot see on TV what he sees(or doesn't).
Did you even read my post or did my click bait thread title get you too riled up?
I read your post. And really do not care what some casual data point says. You cannot throw the ball to somebody that is not open. Did you see anybody just open last night, or did he have to run around to find time?
I 'm hardly riled up. I just don't like stats that are easily refuted by common sense.
And then I said I believe he does hold the ball too long.
Jones need the "Mississippi Rush Rules" to have any chance to succeed in the NFL.
And probably the 5-count rule - 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3, Mississippi, 4 Mississippi, 5 Mississippi.
Jones went to a great academic school and apparently did well. But that doesn't translate to an NFL field. He's just not a bright NFL player. He is a paint-by-numbers QB who needs to follow a sequence of easy-to-follow rules to possibly succeed.
If people actually watch these games and what they're looking at if they do. This stat might mean something if Jones was standing in the pocket for 3.13 seconds before delivering the ball. He's not. Last night is a perfect example. He was almost immediately under pressure. It's funny how having to run for your life actually increases the time a QB holds the ball by needing to extend the play.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Not true. It's a team sport. Receivers were not open so what would you like him to do? Throw the ball into harms way, take a sack, or take an intentional grounding. Again, look at the group he is with. Mobile QBs hold onto the ball longer because they can. He has bought plenty of time this year to try to let things develop. It isn't as simple as saying he isn't making quick decisions. His decison is quick, he can't throw it to his first read before being pressures.
Someone above said we should take out all the scrambles he has to get a better idea. Well, what about all the sacks he has taken this year too. What is the average time per sack. People like to say he holds the ball too long but I bet you'd be surprised by how quickly he is getting sacked.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This is directly counter to everything Aikman said last night during the game. I think he might know a thing or two about playing QB.
When a QB is under pressure and has to reset his position or scramble, of course the snap to release time is increased.
The better data point to understand if Jones holds the ball too long would be to remove snaps where he's under pressure.
And even then, this would be directional data at best.
I'm getting annoyed with myself, I'm defending Jones too much this morning = )
If you want to see who the real Jones is, the All-22 tells the consistent story. There are plenty of clips out there.
Jones can't or won't see the entire field consistently. And he misses just way too many opportunities to execute successful plays. When he does seem to process the right play, he has this quasi-double clutch move where he just can't pull the trigger. Either he doesn't have the confidence in his ability, or he'd rather just take the miss and move onto the next play. It's the most irritating problem to study.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This is directly counter to everything Aikman said last night during the game. I think he might know a thing or two about playing QB.
1) yup no blocking
2) running for his life
3) receivers can’t get open.
In my book after constant pressure no turnovers again. An NFL receiver falls down running a route a) is not an interception on the QB and b) shouldn’t be an nfl receiver. Can a normal human walk and chew gum? This is his job. We have shit.
Apples to oranges. Context matters. When receivers aren't open before the pressure forces him to move and he ends up trying to extend the play. How do you suppose running around for 7 or 8 seconds before throwing affects his average? And Jackson is just two spots above him. Heck, Herbert is just 0.2 ahead of him.
I think what you are failing to realize is that Jones could get immediate pressure in his face forcing him to scramble around before eventually throwing the ball… thus increasing his time to release it. This stat does not prove he isn’t getting pressure. All I need is my eyes to tell me he is under plenty of pressure.
Downs cause his ability and would have been over 100 yds rushing (if not for penalities). Eli would have been carried off on a stretcher last night. Time to move on? Ok spend the next 5 years of sucking ass cause the new QB is knocked out perm. Kid is as tough as nails. Take the 30 mill a suppose super star qb would get and sign two guards and a stud receiver and all of a sudden we have a superstar qB. Who btw has a higher QB rating and higher completion % than Kyler Murray.
Downs cause his ability and would have been over 100 yds rushing (if not for penalities). Eli would have been carried off on a stretcher last night. Time to move on? Ok spend the next 5 years of sucking ass cause the new QB is knocked out perm. Kid is as tough as nails. Take the 30 mill a suppose super star qb would get and sign two guards and a stud receiver and all of a sudden we have a superstar qB. Who btw has a higher QB rating and higher completion % than Kyler Murray.
So you want to spend the $30 mil that we would need to pay our “stud” qb on two guards and WR. I’m guessing we then draft a QB to be the superstar??
Slow to process and pocket awareness is leading to sacks
Yes, the offensive line is contributing in heaps, but some of those sacks last night were coming from his throwing side and he had no idea they were coming until they were hitting his grill. It's been that way his entire career thus far.
& neither will I . But he was a distant third in last night’s problems behind O-Line & WR. But … there is a reason that teams come after him with impunity . They feel comfortable speeding it up on him . He’s been good , not great , but good through 3 .
New contract ? 55% in my estimation with part of the lowering % being due to getting hit so much . If this keeps up , he’s bound to get hurt . If so , there goes the extension . That might be unfair but that’s life .
It would require way too much leg work but it would be interesting to see a breakdown of time to throw on sacks, completions, incompletions, check downs and throw aways. It would provide way more context broken down like that.
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
I think a big factor is also him buying time by scrambling as he’s often under duress on most pass plays. If you look at that list Lamar Jackson, Mariota, Cousins, even Herbert and Russel Wilson aren’t too far off of Jones’ number. Are those guys all as bad as him? Of course not, but they are mobile and are able to buy time.
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This the most bizarre take after last night and so utterly divorced from rality it's mind numbing. I can think of at least 10 passes DJ completed last night by scrambling abd keeping his eyes down field. He took a major step forward on that last night and the fact that some people are not acknowledging that progress is just befuddling
or does he have a bottom 5 receiving corp and no one is open?
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
This could be the most humourous post of all time on BBI. David Sills blows the top off the defense? Regularly? That's comedy gold. The first 4.57 40 guy who cab regularly blow the top off a defense. That's just great.
or does he have a bottom 5 receiving corp and no one is open?
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
This could be the most humourous post of all time on BBI. David Sills blows the top off the defense? Regularly? That's comedy gold. The first 4.57 40 guy who cab regularly blow the top off a defense. That's just great.
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
but can't we at least agree that it is insane to say Daniel Jones has no time to throw and also he holds the ball for the longest time?
We can't sit here and pretend he's that elusive that he is extending plays long enough to move the average that significantly.
No, what is far more likely is that he is just taking a hard to perceive but statistically relevant amount of additional time on many attempt than he's extending plays considerably more than say Kyler Murray.
that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
Agreed.
It's also possible that Jones has a lot of deficiencies on the roster around him, but that he is also a deficiency. He is not a bad QB, but he is also not a great one. He played a good and gutsy game last night, but not a great one. That is not entirely on the OL or WRs. And it is also discounting that he now has a healthy Barkley with an OL that can run block and a better offensive system and coaching staff.
Enough is enough. everything that goes wrong is because the OL sucks, the WRs suck, etc. But, if he has a good (not great) game, he is the only one who deserves praise and he should be the QB of the future. That's just not the reality, nor is it smart.
It's just a patently absurd argument to say no QB can do better than J
It implies there is no difference between QBs, thay talent doesn't matter, and it's all about context.
...of course on any given Sunday a bad QB can outplay a great one. But put Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Herbert in Jones' bad circumstance and 9 out of 10 times they will be much more productive. Talent matters.
Plus, isn't the notion that no other QB could do better counter to
the support for Jones? Isn't essentially saying QB is more a product of the offense around him? If that's true, then it makes even less sense to pick up the 5th year option or ever pay a 2nd contract to a QB or big money. Just have a decent roster around the QB and it doesn't matter.
I can't get behind that argument. I think it's absurd. Deep down, I believe those saying it don't believe it either.
Now, the flip side to that is I also don't believe a great QB makes this offense great. I do believe a great QB makes this a better team that accounts for 2-3 more wins. But, this team isn't good enough, yet, for that to be significant.
But, this whole Brady couldn't do better is nonsense. Brade played on some pretty pedestrian offenses talent-wise. But, they put points up because he made plays and made others around him better. Mahomes and Burrow played behind bad OLs last year. Yes, they had better WRs. But, they were also under constant pressure.
RE: Plus, isn't the notion that no other QB could do better counter to
the support for Jones? Isn't essentially saying QB is more a product of the offense around him? If that's true, then it makes even less sense to pick up the 5th year option or ever pay a 2nd contract to a QB or big money. Just have a decent roster around the QB and it doesn't matter.
I can't get behind that argument. I think it's absurd. Deep down, I believe those saying it don't believe it either.
Now, the flip side to that is I also don't believe a great QB makes this offense great. I do believe a great QB makes this a better team that accounts for 2-3 more wins. But, this team isn't good enough, yet, for that to be significant.
But, this whole Brady couldn't do better is nonsense. Brade played on some pretty pedestrian offenses talent-wise. But, they put points up because he made plays and made others around him better. Mahomes and Burrow played behind bad OLs last year. Yes, they had better WRs. But, they were also under constant pressure.
it's a good question. Of course there is no way to answer it. Can a great QB make the Giants great? And the answer is probably not. But a great QB does a lot. A great QB helps with the line and protections, immensely. A great QB can accelerate his drop and progressions. Sometimes it seems Jones stands there like a statue, looking confused. Remember Jones tales the longest from snap to release. And of course a great QB elevates skill players. And the very best QBs are like having another offensive coordinator on the field - certainly Brady, Rodgers and maybe Mahomes fall into that category.
Do you seriously believe no one is open every single time??? Or is it so hard to believe that he just can't make the throw or won't make it... no one is saying this WR group doesn't suck... but he's not even taking a shot!
Yeah and when he finally does Sills slips or Golladay drops it, yeah I know... but far too often and early in the game he's just holding the fucking ball and when he scrambles out the pocket it looks like he has zero ability to make a play throwing the ball, it's scramble for yards or bust because he has shoen zero play making ability as far as throwing on the run!
that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
Of course someone like Rodgers or Mahomes would make a huge difference, though I think both would have gotten sacked a lot more than DJ on Monday night and would not have fared much better, but in general, you are absolutely correct.
However, those guys do not grow on trees and we may be years or decades away from finding a QB of that quality. We could have the choice of the best QB in the 2023 draft and still not be any closer to finding DJ's upgrade. We could be further away from a franchise QB.
You can sit there all day and bitch about DJ, but until you have an argument for an actual solution, it's tiresome. Who is going to hold down the job next year ? Tyrod Taylor ? He's horrible, judging from what he did in pre-season. His best football is a couple of years in the past.
I am all for upgrading QB or any other position we have, but let's not pretend there are any easy answers. I would much rather have DJ than almost any QB we have had in 40 years other than Simms or Eli. Maybe Collins. And all 3 of them would have been sacked 20 times Monday night.
So, I believe comparing how other QBs would have done given the play of the other 10 players on offense Monday night is a solid way of analyzing our current QB situation, and puts the focus where it belongs.
that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
Of course someone like Rodgers or Mahomes would make a huge difference, though I think both would have gotten sacked a lot more than DJ on Monday night and would not have fared much better, but in general, you are absolutely correct.
However, those guys do not grow on trees and we may be years or decades away from finding a QB of that quality. We could have the choice of the best QB in the 2023 draft and still not be any closer to finding DJ's upgrade. We could be further away from a franchise QB.
You can sit there all day and bitch about DJ, but until you have an argument for an actual solution, it's tiresome. Who is going to hold down the job next year ? Tyrod Taylor ? He's horrible, judging from what he did in pre-season. His best football is a couple of years in the past.
I am all for upgrading QB or any other position we have, but let's not pretend there are any easy answers. I would much rather have DJ than almost any QB we have had in 40 years other than Simms or Eli. Maybe Collins. And all 3 of them would have been sacked 20 times Monday night.
So, I believe comparing how other QBs would have done given the play of the other 10 players on offense Monday night is a solid way of analyzing our current QB situation, and puts the focus where it belongs.
You really think Mahomes and Rodgers get sacked more than Jones? Their awareness is off the charts and Jones has lousy awareness. Given the same circumstances those guys get sacked less than Jones over the long haul. Jones stands like a statue in the pocket until he eventually takes off. His poor awareness and slow processing accounts for his many sacks.
Honestly, I want Daniel Jones gone just so we stop getting these
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Actually this stat shows just the opposite
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
Are you nuts? Did you watch the game? There were multiple times last night that even after extending the play with his legs Jones had to throw the ball away because our receivers aren't open. The Oline is awful.
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Huh? Are you saying Jones takes the longest to throw a pass because he has no time to throw?
Imagine a progression of golladay, Sills, Shep.
You need a calenders not a stop watch to time when they get open.
And I'm no Jones supporter.
How does the QB who holds the ball the longest in the NFL not have time to throw? What that metric tells you is that nobody in the league is holding the ball longer than Jones.
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
After looking at the table it seems that the more mobile QBs are at the bottom, which could likely mean that these guys are buying more time with their movement in the pocket (which is a good thing). So guys like Lamar, Fields, and Jones are scrambling around waiting for someone to get open (thus driving up the stat), while immobile guys like Brady, Rodgers, and Jimmy G rely on a quicker release because they can't buy that much time (put Eli on this list).
I'm not sure how its calculated, but at a surface level read this could be what its showing not some slow decision making (which would mean Lamar is slow too then?).
And yes he holds the ball too long, but I cannot see on TV what he sees(or doesn't).
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
WR's
Jones
Last night he was last on the pecking order. With a Diggs or Chase type of WR I bet we see a few big connections downfield with how he was able to escape pressure. So he "elevated" the OL but then the WR's did not enable him to "elevate" them imv.
And yes he holds the ball too long, but I cannot see on TV what he sees(or doesn't).
Did you even read my post or did my click bait thread title get you too riled up?
Quote:
Don't forget that.
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Huh? Are you saying Jones takes the longest to throw a pass because he has no time to throw?
HA1 I suppose so. Covid has me in a fog.
Reminder to folks, he’s in a new offense (his 3rd). I’m guessing his slow reads in weeks 1/2, we’re attributed to his unfamiliarity with the offense and having the worst WR corp in the league.
Not saying he’s the answer, but he seemed to make some progress in Daboll/Kafka’s O last night.
Quote:
What WRs are open? You cannot throw if the WRs aren't open and you have to run for your life....
And yes he holds the ball too long, but I cannot see on TV what he sees(or doesn't).
Did you even read my post or did my click bait thread title get you too riled up?
I read your post. And really do not care what some casual data point says. You cannot throw the ball to somebody that is not open. Did you see anybody just open last night, or did he have to run around to find time?
I 'm hardly riled up. I just don't like stats that are easily refuted by common sense.
And then I said I believe he does hold the ball too long.
He doesn't throw the ball until the receiver has turned and made eye contact with him
Good-to-great QBs release the ball before the WR is out of his break
That 1 second difference is huge
That's why alot of his balls are knocked down and contested, imo
Does this take into account receivers not being able to beat their DB off the ball?
You are spinning a metric to fit your narrative..
I dont think Jones is the future either but to say he is the issue with this offense just shows you dont know what you are watching..
And probably the 5-count rule - 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3, Mississippi, 4 Mississippi, 5 Mississippi.
Jones went to a great academic school and apparently did well. But that doesn't translate to an NFL field. He's just not a bright NFL player. He is a paint-by-numbers QB who needs to follow a sequence of easy-to-follow rules to possibly succeed.
Unfortunately.
Quote:
Don't forget that.
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Actually this stat shows just the opposite
It doesn’t. That stat is only on attempted passes. Doesn’t count sacks, scrambles where he runs or throwaways
Does this take into account receivers not being able to beat their DB off the ball?
You are spinning a metric to fit your narrative..
I dont think Jones is the future either but to say he is the issue with this offense just shows you dont know what you are watching..
What’s my narrative exactly? I called out the WRs nd called the oline average at best
Now I see why our country is fucked. Nobody reads and everybody just wants to argue their preconceived opinion
Fuck
And yes he holds the ball too long, but I cannot see on TV what he sees(or doesn't).
WR are open. DJ just doesn't process what "open" means
On a slant, I'm "open" as soon as I plant my foot in the ground to cut inside
But if you wait an extra second to throw it, I'm not open anymore because the DB is working on his counter
Does that make sense?
When a QB is under pressure and has to reset his position or scramble, of course the snap to release time is increased.
The better data point to understand if Jones holds the ball too long would be to remove snaps where he's under pressure.
And even then, this would be directional data at best.
I'm getting annoyed with myself, I'm defending Jones too much this morning = )
He doesn't throw the ball until the receiver has turned and made eye contact with him
Good-to-great QBs release the ball before the WR is out of his break
Did you see what happened when he did that the last play of the game last night?
That 1 second difference is huge
That's why alot of his balls are knocked down and contested, imo
Quote:
In comment 15834997 SirLoinOfBeef said:
Quote:
Don't forget that.
And I'm no Jones supporter.
Huh? Are you saying Jones takes the longest to throw a pass because he has no time to throw?
HA1 I suppose so. Covid has me in a fog.
This metric is inflated because he has to make a rusher miss or roll away from pressure to even get rid of the ball.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
If DJ holds the ball because no one is open, scrambles, then throws and it's 3.3 seconds, how is that his fault? That happened A TON yesterday.
I don't get the stat either.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Hebert isn't too far away from him at 2.9
Quote:
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Not true. It's a team sport. Receivers were not open so what would you like him to do? Throw the ball into harms way, take a sack, or take an intentional grounding. Again, look at the group he is with. Mobile QBs hold onto the ball longer because they can. He has bought plenty of time this year to try to let things develop. It isn't as simple as saying he isn't making quick decisions. His decison is quick, he can't throw it to his first read before being pressures.
Someone above said we should take out all the scrambles he has to get a better idea. Well, what about all the sacks he has taken this year too. What is the average time per sack. People like to say he holds the ball too long but I bet you'd be surprised by how quickly he is getting sacked.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This is directly counter to everything Aikman said last night during the game. I think he might know a thing or two about playing QB.
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When Jones does make a throw he’s holding on to the ball. It doesn’t mean it happens on every play, just when he makes a throw.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Hebert isn't too far away from him at 2.9
Not every QBs number is the way it is for the same reason. The Chargers line is much better.
When a QB is under pressure and has to reset his position or scramble, of course the snap to release time is increased.
The better data point to understand if Jones holds the ball too long would be to remove snaps where he's under pressure.
And even then, this would be directional data at best.
I'm getting annoyed with myself, I'm defending Jones too much this morning = )
If you want to see who the real Jones is, the All-22 tells the consistent story. There are plenty of clips out there.
Jones can't or won't see the entire field consistently. And he misses just way too many opportunities to execute successful plays. When he does seem to process the right play, he has this quasi-double clutch move where he just can't pull the trigger. Either he doesn't have the confidence in his ability, or he'd rather just take the miss and move onto the next play. It's the most irritating problem to study.
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I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This is directly counter to everything Aikman said last night during the game. I think he might know a thing or two about playing QB.
He literally did this all night last night
2) running for his life
3) receivers can’t get open.
In my book after constant pressure no turnovers again. An NFL receiver falls down running a route a) is not an interception on the QB and b) shouldn’t be an nfl receiver. Can a normal human walk and chew gum? This is his job. We have shit.
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When Jones does make a throw he’s holding on to the ball. It doesn’t mean it happens on every play, just when he makes a throw.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Hebert isn't too far away from him at 2.9
A half second in the NFL is huge
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
Apples to oranges. Context matters. When receivers aren't open before the pressure forces him to move and he ends up trying to extend the play. How do you suppose running around for 7 or 8 seconds before throwing affects his average? And Jackson is just two spots above him. Heck, Herbert is just 0.2 ahead of him.
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In comment 15835087 ajr2456 said:
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When Jones does make a throw he’s holding on to the ball. It doesn’t mean it happens on every play, just when he makes a throw.
What it does reveal is that he’s not making quick decisions to avoid the rush in the other circumstances, else the average would be lower
Hebert isn't too far away from him at 2.9
A half second in the NFL is huge
Less than 1/4 of a second actually and Hebert has a far better line and a massive advantage with the guys running routes for him.
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
I think what you are failing to realize is that Jones could get immediate pressure in his face forcing him to scramble around before eventually throwing the ball… thus increasing his time to release it. This stat does not prove he isn’t getting pressure. All I need is my eyes to tell me he is under plenty of pressure.
+1
but SHHHHHHHH. this doesn't fit the narative that Jones is horrible.
So you want to spend the $30 mil that we would need to pay our “stud” qb on two guards and WR. I’m guessing we then draft a QB to be the superstar??
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History says he will get injured again if he needs to run at such a high rate. It's nice in a pinch but its not sustainable.
He doesn't throw the ball until the receiver has turned and made eye contact with him
Good-to-great QBs release the ball before the WR is out of his break
That 1 second difference is huge
That's why alot of his balls are knocked down and contested, imo
How would you explain the Sills pick last night? He threw that before Sills broke and fell
Are they only counting from the pocket, or including the rollout time not to get killed?
New contract ? 55% in my estimation with part of the lowering % being due to getting hit so much . If this keeps up , he’s bound to get hurt . If so , there goes the extension . That might be unfair but that’s life .
Did you read what you typed? Our best WR is Richie James.
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
Can't both be true?
Serious question, by the way. Do you believe that either one of those factors logically eliminates the other?
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or does he have a bottom 5 receiving corp and no one is open?
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
We should probably lock down Sills with an extension asap.
This.
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
Lol, you can’t make this stuff up. How can you have watched that game and come to this conclusion!
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
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I think a big factor is also him buying time by scrambling as he’s often under duress on most pass plays. If you look at that list Lamar Jackson, Mariota, Cousins, even Herbert and Russel Wilson aren’t too far off of Jones’ number. Are those guys all as bad as him? Of course not, but they are mobile and are able to buy time.
Jones has his deficiencies obviously, but I think this number is a product of him buying time due to the heavy pressure he’s often under.
I say this all the time about Jones; he doesn’t move around in the pocket or scramble to make a play with his arm. When his reads aren’t there Jones just goes into run mode and has zero intention of keeping his eyes down field
This the most bizarre take after last night and so utterly divorced from rality it's mind numbing. I can think of at least 10 passes DJ completed last night by scrambling abd keeping his eyes down field. He took a major step forward on that last night and the fact that some people are not acknowledging that progress is just befuddling
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or does he have a bottom 5 receiving corp and no one is open?
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
This could be the most humourous post of all time on BBI. David Sills blows the top off the defense? Regularly? That's comedy gold. The first 4.57 40 guy who cab regularly blow the top off a defense. That's just great.
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or does he have a bottom 5 receiving corp and no one is open?
Did you check the All-22? Sills V blows the top off the defense on a regular basis, but Jones doesn't see it.
This could be the most humourous post of all time on BBI. David Sills blows the top off the defense? Regularly? That's comedy gold. The first 4.57 40 guy who cab regularly blow the top off a defense. That's just great.
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
Yes the vast majority of those guys sucked!
Does it not give any of you pause that since Jones, we've had probably 30 or 40 o-linemen here, two dozen receives, a half dozen starting running backs, 4 offensive coordinators and the offense still can't score any points? Are any of you seeing any common denominator in these difficulties?
Yes the vast majority of those guys sucked!
Is it average to below average overall? Sure
But it’s not the sole reason Jones struggles
But his release is not the only reason for struggles that some are making it out to be.
But they were open all night!!
Precious.
We can't sit here and pretend he's that elusive that he is extending plays long enough to move the average that significantly.
No, what is far more likely is that he is just taking a hard to perceive but statistically relevant amount of additional time on many attempt than he's extending plays considerably more than say Kyler Murray.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
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that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
It's also possible that Jones has a lot of deficiencies on the roster around him, but that he is also a deficiency. He is not a bad QB, but he is also not a great one. He played a good and gutsy game last night, but not a great one. That is not entirely on the OL or WRs. And it is also discounting that he now has a healthy Barkley with an OL that can run block and a better offensive system and coaching staff.
Enough is enough. everything that goes wrong is because the OL sucks, the WRs suck, etc. But, if he has a good (not great) game, he is the only one who deserves praise and he should be the QB of the future. That's just not the reality, nor is it smart.
...of course on any given Sunday a bad QB can outplay a great one. But put Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Herbert in Jones' bad circumstance and 9 out of 10 times they will be much more productive. Talent matters.
I can't get behind that argument. I think it's absurd. Deep down, I believe those saying it don't believe it either.
Now, the flip side to that is I also don't believe a great QB makes this offense great. I do believe a great QB makes this a better team that accounts for 2-3 more wins. But, this team isn't good enough, yet, for that to be significant.
But, this whole Brady couldn't do better is nonsense. Brade played on some pretty pedestrian offenses talent-wise. But, they put points up because he made plays and made others around him better. Mahomes and Burrow played behind bad OLs last year. Yes, they had better WRs. But, they were also under constant pressure.
I can't get behind that argument. I think it's absurd. Deep down, I believe those saying it don't believe it either.
Now, the flip side to that is I also don't believe a great QB makes this offense great. I do believe a great QB makes this a better team that accounts for 2-3 more wins. But, this team isn't good enough, yet, for that to be significant.
But, this whole Brady couldn't do better is nonsense. Brade played on some pretty pedestrian offenses talent-wise. But, they put points up because he made plays and made others around him better. Mahomes and Burrow played behind bad OLs last year. Yes, they had better WRs. But, they were also under constant pressure.
it's a good question. Of course there is no way to answer it. Can a great QB make the Giants great? And the answer is probably not. But a great QB does a lot. A great QB helps with the line and protections, immensely. A great QB can accelerate his drop and progressions. Sometimes it seems Jones stands there like a statue, looking confused. Remember Jones tales the longest from snap to release. And of course a great QB elevates skill players. And the very best QBs are like having another offensive coordinator on the field - certainly Brady, Rodgers and maybe Mahomes fall into that category.
Do you seriously believe no one is open every single time??? Or is it so hard to believe that he just can't make the throw or won't make it... no one is saying this WR group doesn't suck... but he's not even taking a shot!
Yeah and when he finally does Sills slips or Golladay drops it, yeah I know... but far too often and early in the game he's just holding the fucking ball and when he scrambles out the pocket it looks like he has zero ability to make a play throwing the ball, it's scramble for yards or bust because he has shoen zero play making ability as far as throwing on the run!
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that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
Of course someone like Rodgers or Mahomes would make a huge difference, though I think both would have gotten sacked a lot more than DJ on Monday night and would not have fared much better, but in general, you are absolutely correct.
However, those guys do not grow on trees and we may be years or decades away from finding a QB of that quality. We could have the choice of the best QB in the 2023 draft and still not be any closer to finding DJ's upgrade. We could be further away from a franchise QB.
You can sit there all day and bitch about DJ, but until you have an argument for an actual solution, it's tiresome. Who is going to hold down the job next year ? Tyrod Taylor ? He's horrible, judging from what he did in pre-season. His best football is a couple of years in the past.
I am all for upgrading QB or any other position we have, but let's not pretend there are any easy answers. I would much rather have DJ than almost any QB we have had in 40 years other than Simms or Eli. Maybe Collins. And all 3 of them would have been sacked 20 times Monday night.
So, I believe comparing how other QBs would have done given the play of the other 10 players on offense Monday night is a solid way of analyzing our current QB situation, and puts the focus where it belongs.
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In comment 15836050 Mike in Marin said:
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that would have been able to win that game last night given the supporting cast's performance, other than maybe Lamar Jackson. Tom Brady would have been sacked 18 times.
Blame Kafka and Daboll for implementing plays and calling them, where so many plays don't lead to an open 1st or 2nd read more quickly if you want.
That people spend so much time bashing the 12th or so highest priority of problems we have on this team is mind-boggling.
I keep reading that.
You really can't see how a Rodgers or Mahomes are able to lift and inspire the play of others?
These guys are football savants. They actually know how to read a defense pre and post snap and scan the complete field. And then on top of that, they have the physical skills to execute anywhere on the field.
We didn't lose by 47 last night. We lost be 7. The number between 6 and 8. I feel 100% confident there are QBs in the NFL who are quite capable of making up those 7 points. Easily.
Of course someone like Rodgers or Mahomes would make a huge difference, though I think both would have gotten sacked a lot more than DJ on Monday night and would not have fared much better, but in general, you are absolutely correct.
However, those guys do not grow on trees and we may be years or decades away from finding a QB of that quality. We could have the choice of the best QB in the 2023 draft and still not be any closer to finding DJ's upgrade. We could be further away from a franchise QB.
You can sit there all day and bitch about DJ, but until you have an argument for an actual solution, it's tiresome. Who is going to hold down the job next year ? Tyrod Taylor ? He's horrible, judging from what he did in pre-season. His best football is a couple of years in the past.
I am all for upgrading QB or any other position we have, but let's not pretend there are any easy answers. I would much rather have DJ than almost any QB we have had in 40 years other than Simms or Eli. Maybe Collins. And all 3 of them would have been sacked 20 times Monday night.
So, I believe comparing how other QBs would have done given the play of the other 10 players on offense Monday night is a solid way of analyzing our current QB situation, and puts the focus where it belongs.
You really think Mahomes and Rodgers get sacked more than Jones? Their awareness is off the charts and Jones has lousy awareness. Given the same circumstances those guys get sacked less than Jones over the long haul. Jones stands like a statue in the pocket until he eventually takes off. His poor awareness and slow processing accounts for his many sacks.
Then all of you can move on to obsessively pissing and moaning about our next QB every single day.