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NFT: Knicks Chat: Fournier the favorite to start at the 2

DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 12:35 pm
Directly from Thibs mouth
And here we go  
robbieballs2003 : 9/27/2022 12:37 pm : link
.
Some things never change.  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 9/27/2022 12:38 pm : link
Good season Knicks.
what the fuck was the point of keeping Grimes then  
guitarguybs12 : 9/27/2022 12:38 pm : link
what an asshole
Oh for fucks sake Thibs  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:38 pm : link
you need shooting? Doesnt Grimes provide shooting and defense? you know the thing you hang your hat on?

really?
Gonna get ugly  
bceagle05 : 9/27/2022 12:42 pm : link
if Fournier and Randle are playing 30-35 minutes. We'll get a heavy dose of Derrick Rose too, as Thibs challenged him to come into camp in the best shape of his career. Doesn't leave many opportunities for Grimes, Obi and IQ - ya know, that "great young core" that Leon told Hahn he loves so much.
if Grimes is that good (or even just healthy)  
djm : 9/27/2022 12:45 pm : link
he will play more minutes than Fournier. Watch.
RE: Gonna get ugly  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15835060 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
if Fournier and Randle are playing 30-35 minutes. We'll get a heavy dose of Derrick Rose too, as Thibs challenged him to come into camp in the best shape of his career. Doesn't leave many opportunities for Grimes, Obi and IQ - ya know, that "great young core" that Leon told Hahn he loves so much.


the Fire Thibs chants are going to start early especially if the team starts slow..

I see people on twitter saying well he cant come right out and say Grimes is the starter, why not? and when has Thibs ever adjusted? last year he didnt adjust the minutes until it was to late..

The year before he never adjusted
So when does the first article with WWW  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/27/2022 12:46 pm : link
anonymously attacking Thibs come out?
Brutal  
widmerseyebrow : 9/27/2022 12:46 pm : link
Hopefully Leon trades these guys out from under him until we get an ideal starting lineup but my hopes are not high. There is just no synergy between front office and coach.
RE: if Grimes is that good (or even just healthy)  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15835069 djm said:
Quote:
he will play more minutes than Fournier. Watch.


have you seen Thibs coached teams?
Not  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 12:46 pm : link
particularly interested in a long Grimes/Fournier debut but Thibs 1. Claimed this season was a clean slate... 1 practice in he's making this declaration 2. He cited the need for shooting in the starting lineup... Grimes 38% from 3 as a rookie, 40% as a Junior at Houston and 44% from 3 over 6 starts. Fournier is obviously a very good shooter but c'mon lol
Might as well just traded obi and grimes for DM  
BigBlueDawg56 : 9/27/2022 12:47 pm : link
Those 2 with the picks woulda got it done. Thibs won’t play either one as long as Randle and Fournier is around which is at least 2 years cause no one wants either one of em
RE: Not  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15835084 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
particularly interested in a long Grimes/Fournier debut but Thibs 1. Claimed this season was a clean slate... 1 practice in he's making this declaration 2. He cited the need for shooting in the starting lineup... Grimes 38% from 3 as a rookie, 40% as a Junior at Houston and 44% from 3 over 6 starts. Fournier is obviously a very good shooter but c'mon lol


up next will be Randle playong 35 minutes a night
From last season...  
Jan in DC : 9/27/2022 12:52 pm : link
they tried to do a bunch of pick and roll stuff with Randle and Fournier, dribble handoffs, etc. I don't think it worked particularly well.

I really think that Fournier should play. He's our best shooter and I think there's definitely a role for him on the team, but I'd rather see what he can do with the second unit.

We all know Thibs substitutes in hockey shifts anyways, so it'd be better to see him run with Obi and Quick and those guys.
If Fournier and Grimes  
Carl in CT : 9/27/2022 12:53 pm : link
Eat up the#2 guard minutes and you are playing Rose behind Brunson, where the hell is IQ in this equation. Reddish behind RJB Toppin behind Randle and Hart behind Robinson. Iq and Sims I guess wait for injuries? I’m not a fan of this at all.
See I don't get too carried away with Fournier starting  
Stu11 : 9/27/2022 12:53 pm : link
Because when he's not shooting well Thibs takes him out. When he is, he's the best shooter on the team. It's not like Randle where he plays no matter what. Grimes will get his minutes. Take a chill guys.
Obi, grimes and  
Carl in CT : 9/27/2022 12:55 pm : link
IQ. I want Grimes at the 2 with IQ backing up. I don’t want Fournier on the roster.
This has been expected all along  
larryflower37 : 9/27/2022 12:55 pm : link
This is Thibs and he makes no apologies, Rose knew this when he hired him.
Randle will get 38 minutes a night and Fournier 34.
You know i was saying to myself this morning  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:56 pm : link
how i am excited for this season and the young players this team has and i feel like with this it is just going to be the same as last year..

Starters play like trash, Obi, Iq and Grimes comes in, brings the team back and then Thibs takes them for the starters for no reason and the Knicks lose rinse and repeat..

I can already see the rotation with Thibs hockey shifts and Obi and iq playing 10 minutes a game
RE: See I don't get too carried away with Fournier starting  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15835117 Stu11 said:
Quote:
Because when he's not shooting well Thibs takes him out. When he is, he's the best shooter on the team. It's not like Randle where he plays no matter what. Grimes will get his minutes. Take a chill guys.


and how will grimes get his minutes with iq and rose?
It  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 12:58 pm : link
does seem like something has to give with Rose/IQ... how does IQ play decent minutes with Brunson playing a full workload, Fournier and Grimes at the 2?
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 12:59 pm : link
Knicks Videos
@sny_knicks
How can Tom Thibodeau best utilize both Obi Toppin and Julius Randle?

"It's based on performance, who fits best together. It's not fantasy basketball, it's what makes the group work best."
RE: RE: See I don't get too carried away with Fournier starting  
larryflower37 : 9/27/2022 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15835142 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15835117 Stu11 said:


Quote:


Because when he's not shooting well Thibs takes him out. When he is, he's the best shooter on the team. It's not like Randle where he plays no matter what. Grimes will get his minutes. Take a chill guys.



and how will grimes get his minutes with iq and rose?

He is going to put Grimes next to Rose and Quickley won't get minutes
Grimes will probably play the 3 when RJ is out  
robbieballs2003 : 9/27/2022 1:00 pm : link
But, still, it isn't going to be much of a difference.
RE: .  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15835159 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks Videos
@sny_knicks
How can Tom Thibodeau best utilize both Obi Toppin and Julius Randle?

"It's based on performance, who fits best together. It's not fantasy basketball, it's what makes the group work best."


Yes because this is how you coachdd last year, if you think Randle fits best then we got major issues
Even if Fournier plays 28 to 30 minutes a night  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 1:03 pm : link
Brunson is playing 35 and Rj is playing 35 to 38..

13 at the back up point, 10 to 13 at the backup 3 and 18 to 20 at the back up 2..

This is how you develop guys?
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 1:03 pm : link
genuinely curious to those who are more optimistic about Thibs rotations than I am... assuming Brunson and RJB play heavy, heavy minutes at the 1 and 3...

Fournier/Grimes are the "1st and 2nd 2's"... Derrick Rose and IQ... how is that going to work itself out? I can't imagine Thibs relegating Derrick Rose to 3rd PG or 4th 2 guard...so IQ/Rose... should be interesting.
Not surprising, lol.  
Optimus-NY : 9/27/2022 1:06 pm : link
What's even more surprising is that Taj Gibson isn't back. He'd be playing 20-35 minutes a night at PF & C.
Thibs is nothing but at least transparent  
larryflower37 : 9/27/2022 1:12 pm : link
Everyone on here has said this all along and know one should be surprised at this point.
If Leon doesn't control the roster Thibs will be Thibs. WWW wanted him gone for this reason. This falls on the lap of Rose and his lack of balls to make a deal and control Thibs.
Randle, Rose and Fournier need to go or fire Thibs and put someone in that wants to develop the kids.
The clock is ticking on OBI,Cam, Grimes and IQ they are going to leave for nothing especially since he doesn't have the balls to trade them either.
The hardest part is there is so much potential on this roster it's just being mismanaged at this point.
Listen i have come to grips that Randle is going to start  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 1:18 pm : link
and if he plays the way he said he was going to yesterday and sacrifice than ok, BUT Obi should still get 25 minutes a night, its just that simple..

I like Fournier but he is just not a fit for this team him starting is doing a disservice to this team..

Grimes should start, iq and Rose backing up him and Brunson..
RE: Listen i have come to grips that Randle is going to start  
larryflower37 : 9/27/2022 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15835237 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
and if he plays the way he said he was going to yesterday and sacrifice than ok, BUT Obi should still get 25 minutes a night, its just that simple..

I like Fournier but he is just not a fit for this team him starting is doing a disservice to this team..

Grimes should start, iq and Rose backing up him and Brunson..

Yep and saying it over and over again is not going to change the direction this FO and Thibs are going.
FO and coach need to change to make that reality
I pray Brunson  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 9/27/2022 1:23 pm : link
outperforms his contract. Typical Knicks fashion he would just flop here on the Knicks and we're stuck paying all of that money.
RE: I pray Brunson  
larryflower37 : 9/27/2022 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15835249 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:
outperforms his contract. Typical Knicks fashion he would just flop here on the Knicks and we're stuck paying all of that money.

The expectations are too high for him, he will be a good player but everyone is expecting what he did at the end of the year and playoffs.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 1:44 pm : link
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
20m
Isaiah Hartenstein says most Knicks have been working out together for a month prior to camp. When asked about it, Hartenstein said he’s gotten a chance to develop chemistry w/all players during workouts, cited playing regularly w/Jalen Brunson, Immanuel Quickley, Obi Toppin
RE: .  
nygiants16 : 9/27/2022 1:45 pm : link
In comment 15835321 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
20m
Isaiah Hartenstein says most Knicks have been working out together for a month prior to camp. When asked about it, Hartenstein said he’s gotten a chance to develop chemistry w/all players during workouts, cited playing regularly w/Jalen Brunson, Immanuel Quickley, Obi Toppin


I can really see our Bench being really good for the 10 minutes they are on the court together
Jay Wright  
Earl the goat : 9/27/2022 2:02 pm : link
Will be the new coach for the 23-24 season
So it's Fournier's job to lose, or,  
81_Great_Dane : 9/27/2022 2:29 pm : link
Grimes has to take it from him. That's to be expected. Fournier's the veteran (sigh). His shooting should help open up the floor for Randle and Barrett. Yes?

If Fournier isn't starting, he and Rose seems like a good backcourt to me — even if Rose's minutes have to be limited. IQ remains an awkward fit with Fournier, IMO, since IQ's not exactly a point guard.

All that said, Thibs also has said he loves Grimes. So I expect Grimes will get an opportunity to win the job. But he's starting lower on the depth chart.

The funny thing is, a starting five that includes Brunson, Grimes, Toppin and Barrett makes sense to me, because it seems pretty balanced and those guys have complementary skills. Meanwhile a second unit that includes Fournier, IQ/Rose and Randle makes some sense to me because Randle wants to handle the ball, and again, those guys have complementary skills. But Randle on the second unit isn't in the cards, so...

I wish they'd package Fournier and/or Randle with some picks in a trade. The Fournier signing made sense when the Knicks seemed to be ahead of schedule. Now that they're back to being a construction project, I don't think it makes sense to keep him.
How can you have a clean slate  
Jan in DC : 9/27/2022 2:30 pm : link
and have someone be the favorite? This is confusing.
I am vastly more optimistic than the typical BBIer...  
manh george : 9/27/2022 2:42 pm : link
that the Knicks rotation will be fixed pretty quickly (and Quickley).

First, Thibideau is certainly a stubborn sonofabitch, but he also understands self-preservation. Everyone from the popcorn vendors to GM Rose knows that there are two main strategic structures for the Knicks:
1)Mostly play the vets and give the young talent minor minutes, or
2) Go aggressively to the young talent in the hope that they can improve dramatically and show real dominance against a lot of teams.

Strategy 1 has an a) and b): a) If Randall responds dramatically to having Brunson run the team, he could dominate again. Meanwhile, the word is that Rose is in FABULOUS shape. If both of those things are true, then Fournier only holds the starting slot as long as his shooting is strong enough to offset his low-mediocre defense. Then, the young talent would have to be slotted in, and if all of this works, the Knicks would be a good team. And, any of the veterans who cracks would be replaced as a starter, or see minutes cut sharply.
b) If Randall mostly sucks, Toppin gets a lot more minutes, quickly.

So, how would we get to (2)? Simple. Rose KNOWS that the young talent can only improve by getting more time. Thibideau knows that he knows. Would Thibideau remain stubborn with the three key veterans not working out, or the top three young players showing accelerated potential, for this year and for the future?

I simply cannot believe that Thibideau is that stupid along with that stubborn. Thibs optimizes the talent he has available, or he is gone. And, of course, Thibs loves two-way players. Quickley and Grimes are both that. Fournier and Randall aren't. Toppin has defensive weaknesses, but with one huge strength: the opposition PF would have to chase him all over the gym. That would diminish his capacity to beat up on Toppin. And, Toppin's d is improving, and will continue to.

Bottom line for Thibs: win and develop the youth, or be gone and have someone else develop the youth. And if the Knicks suck in a lot of first quarters, as they did for much of last year, Rose will quickly pound on Thibs to start making changes.



Hahn on KnicksFanTV tonight at 9pm  
bceagle05 : 9/27/2022 4:19 pm : link
Annual visit for a season preview.
Knicks  
TyreeHelmet : 9/27/2022 5:11 pm : link
If Leon Rose believes in the “young core” as much as fans are led to believe, he can’t have this roster constructed the way it is. You can’t expect Thibs to bench Randle, it will cause a mutiny in that locker room.

And I know everyone thinks Grimes is the next Klay, but at this moment is he definitely better than Fournier? Fournier had a decent season he just kills you on defense. Grimes has a ton to prove just like the rest of the young players.

And DRose is going to play if healthy.

If Leon Rose wanted to go with a true youth movement, 2 and probably all 3 of those guys shouldn’t be on the team. But Leon Rose doesn’t know what he’s doing or what direction this franchise is heading. But he wants a parade thrown for him and his staff for their drafts who have yet to produce a legit proven nba starter thus far.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 5:27 pm : link
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
4m
With Knicks training camp roster currently at 19, it’s worth noting that NYK has been hoping to reduce guard Jean Montero’s buyout with overseas club Grand Canaria. Montero impressed NYK & other clubs during Summer League. Teams can carry max of 20 players during training camp.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 5:30 pm : link
Odd. Already have Brunson/Fournier/Grimes/Rose/IQ + Deuce (who likely won't see any time)+ Arcidiacono and Svi. You'd think Montero staying with Gran Canaria ala Rokas would make more sense for his development.
Starting doesn’t mean  
ajr2456 : 9/27/2022 6:12 pm : link
He’ll play more minutes than Grimes. Or even start the full year. Let’s see how it plays out
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/27/2022 6:38 pm : link
Same old, same old. I expect JR to get a ton of minutes @ Obi's expense too. One can hope Thibs is shown the door midseason.
RE: Starting doesn’t mean  
DanMetroMan : 9/27/2022 8:36 pm : link
In comment 15835766 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
He’ll play more minutes than Grimes. Or even start the full year. Let’s see how it plays out


In theory, yes Grimes could still play more… BUT Thibs cited Fournier’s fit with the starters aka players who will be out there for 30+ per night so if the fit is what he likes…
RE: RE: Starting doesn’t mean  
robbieballs2003 : 9/27/2022 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15835974 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 15835766 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


He’ll play more minutes than Grimes. Or even start the full year. Let’s see how it plays out



In theory, yes Grimes could still play more… BUT Thibs cited Fournier’s fit with the starters aka players who will be out there for 30+ per night so if the fit is what he likes…


After seeing Burks play most of the years with the starters gives me no faith that Thibs gets this right. And I like Burks but no way in hell he should have played as much as he did.
Just look at the +/- last year of the starters vs. the bench guys.  
robbieballs2003 : 9/27/2022 8:51 pm : link
How can anybody support Thibs' claim that he knows what the best lineups are? He never mixes and matches to find out.
Any Chance Rokas Comes stateside this year?  
LTIsTheGreatest : 9/28/2022 9:15 am : link
Or is he definitley resigned to another year in Europe?
I have a feeling  
Enzo : 9/28/2022 9:22 am : link
Johnnie Bryant is coaching this team by MLK day.
We shouldn't overreact to the depth chart at the beginning of camp  
Heisenberg : 9/28/2022 9:43 am : link
.
RE: We shouldn't overreact to the depth chart at the beginning of camp  
Semipro Lineman : 9/28/2022 9:50 am : link
In comment 15836284 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
.


Not overreact? Have you met us?
Did any of think that just maybe they are still thinking  
steve in ky : 9/28/2022 9:52 am : link
that they may trade him and they don’t want to lower his value? Who cares what they hint at this far in advance of the season, let it okay out.
RE: Any Chance Rokas Comes stateside this year?  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 10:09 am : link
In comment 15836258 LTIsTheGreatest said:
Quote:
Or is he definitley resigned to another year in Europe?


Staying in Europe. Wanted guaranteed playing time (wasn't happening here obviously).
Crowder  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 10:13 am : link
isn't a superstar by any means but whichever contender trades for him will be getting a very solid player.
This is the first time that I can remember that I’m not excited  
Mike in NJ : 9/28/2022 10:39 am : link
About the start of the season. I’m sure the team will be more fun to watch with Brunson, and I was happy about the signing, but it just seems like this organization is stuck on the treadmill at the moment.

The two big changes I would have liked to see were bringing in a younger, more modern head coach, and trading Randle. Neither of those things happened, and I feel like those two guys being here are going to hold back what this team could be. They aren’t winning anything this year even if those changes were made, but at least we could be excited knowing that without Randle there, and with a less stubborn head coach, we could look forward to big minutes from the young core of Grimes, Quickley, and Toppin. Instead we’re going to get to watch Randle sulk around for 35 minutes a night, and Rose and Fournier eating up minutes that could be used to develop young players.

It  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 10:41 am : link
does seem like barring injury the roster has "too many" players who either need to (young) or will (older) play. I mean... as I asked above... how much is IQ playing if Rose is here? Brunson will play 30+, Fournier/Grimes will combine to play 30+, so how many minutes are there for IQ if Rose is here? Very confusing.
RE: Any Chance Rokas Comes stateside this year?  
Heisenberg : 9/28/2022 10:44 am : link
In comment 15836258 LTIsTheGreatest said:
Quote:
Or is he definitley resigned to another year in Europe?


Our roster is chock full. We can't find playing time for the guys we have, much less him.
Fournier shouldn't play at all  
ElitoCanton : 9/28/2022 10:45 am : link
There be a three guard rotation of Brunson, IQ and Grimes taking up most of the minutes. Rose should fill whatever is left. The Knicks have the exact wrong coach for this team. What a mess.
I just dont trust Thibs  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 10:48 am : link
i think he is a good coach but not the right fit for this team, this team was at its best when they were running and playing small and young..Thibs hated it, you could see it, the second the team started running he would bring in Burks to slow everything down..

Thibs is just not a fit for this team..
Yeah, ditching Burks, Kemba and Noel was a start  
bceagle05 : 9/28/2022 10:49 am : link
but it was obvious those three needed to go. One of the Randle/Fournier/Rose trio needed to go too. We all wanted Randle gone, but a Rose or Fournier move may be more important due to the backcourt glut. If Reddish is out of the rotation we'll have an awfully small bench unit - Grimes or Fournier with Rose/IQ? Could be fun, but it's an awkward fit.
RE: Fournier shouldn't play at all  
bceagle05 : 9/28/2022 10:55 am : link
In comment 15836376 ElitoCanton said:
Quote:
There be a three guard rotation of Brunson, IQ and Grimes taking up most of the minutes. Rose should fill whatever is left. The Knicks have the exact wrong coach for this team. What a mess.


Yeah I agree, would be nice to move Fournier.

Brunson/Grimes
Rose/IQ

If Grimes can't handle a starting role you could swap IQ in there.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 11:49 am : link
"I think it was a spot where I felt wanted," Hartenstein said. "I thought I could bring something that they couldn't have, to help them win. It was a good situation for me. I think coming in and bringing in something different that they didn't have before. Mitch does great stuff but me just bringing something different on the offensive end and then defensively, I was really good at rim protecting last year."
Link - ( New Window )
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 11:49 am : link
“What a lot of people don’t get, it’s not like I’m learning how to shoot. Before coming into the NBA, it was more of (playing the) four, shooting,” he said, per the New York Post. “In Houston, I played my role. It wasn’t to shoot, it was pick-and-roll. When I was in the G-League, I hit eight threes in one game, so it’s not like I’m learning how to shoot the ball. I think that’s one thing that me and Thibs talked about, helping spread the floor.”
Thibs goes unchecked by this front office  
larryflower37 : 9/28/2022 12:17 pm : link
He will put out whoever he wants, Rose gives him autonomy to make coaching decisions.
With that said he believes Randle and Fournier give him the best chance to win and his philosophy has always been to ride those horses until they fall down.
Thibs is going to coach the way he always has and makes no apologies so to all the people saying he won't do that again he will, just be prepared for another frustrating season.
Grimes and Rose will be the first off the bench but Obi, Quickley and Cam will get limited minutes again and used in spots but not enough to make a big difference.
...  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 1:24 pm : link
Stefan Bondy
@SBondyNYDN
Tom Thibodeau didn't sound too eager to use a Julius Randle-Obi Toppin lineup. He said they've looked at it in practice and in small doses last season:

"I think the numbers show it wasn't very effective."



Frank Barrett
@FrankBarrett119
·
20m
Replying to
@SBondyNYDN
Could you have the actual numbers ready so that next time this question is asked you have a follow-up? I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that’s your job, right?

Hint: Thibs is wronh about what the numbers show.

2020-2021: 39 min, +8.1/100 net
2021-2022: 101 min, +3.7/100 net
another day and another Thibs Quote  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 1:30 pm : link
to piss off the fans, remember last year when everyone was begging him to make adjustments and he kept saying he knows the team best and then at the end of the year the team played better eith the guys everyome wanted and he literally said nothing, still praised Burks Gibson and Randle..
Thibs works with Thibs numbers...  
Jan in DC : 9/28/2022 2:15 pm : link
Don't the Knicks employ a huge amount of analytics people now? Can't someone just make a couple charts to show him?

Also, if you're going to use sample size as an excuse about the numbers, guess who that's on? You. It's on you for never playing them together because "the numbers aren't good on that" or whatever nonsense he's peddling.
RE: ...  
widmerseyebrow : 9/28/2022 2:21 pm : link
In comment 15836602 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Stefan Bondy
@SBondyNYDN
Tom Thibodeau didn't sound too eager to use a Julius Randle-Obi Toppin lineup. He said they've looked at it in practice and in small doses last season:

"I think the numbers show it wasn't very effective."



Frank Barrett
@FrankBarrett119
·
20m
Replying to
@SBondyNYDN
Could you have the actual numbers ready so that next time this question is asked you have a follow-up? I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that’s your job, right?

Hint: Thibs is wronh about what the numbers show.

2020-2021: 39 min, +8.1/100 net
2021-2022: 101 min, +3.7/100 net


Yeesh. That is entering Gettleman territory.
My  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 2:23 pm : link
concern is that Thibs doesn't seem particularly willing to adjust on the fly. Are there poor matchups for Randle/Obi together? Of course. Are there teams/lineups where their flaws are less of an issue? Yup. What's the path to Obi ever playing 24-25 minutes per night let alone more? IQ and Obi finished strong, what's their reward or earned opportunity? For IQ likely less minutes, Obi... more of the same. Why not Believe in your ability to scheme/play mismatches when they arise vs. closing the door?
RE: My  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15836678 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
concern is that Thibs doesn't seem particularly willing to adjust on the fly. Are there poor matchups for Randle/Obi together? Of course. Are there teams/lineups where their flaws are less of an issue? Yup. What's the path to Obi ever playing 24-25 minutes per night let alone more? IQ and Obi finished strong, what's their reward or earned opportunity? For IQ likely less minutes, Obi... more of the same. Why not Believe in your ability to scheme/play mismatches when they arise vs. closing the door?


This is exactly it, you cant play big against everyone, jiat like you cant play small agianst everyone..

But Thibs plays big no matter what, there is no nuance, its rigid, its old and there is no change..

You can literally pick out his rotation before the game starts and there is no deviation
Thibs is exhausting.  
bceagle05 : 9/28/2022 3:14 pm : link
Two days into camp and I'm already tired of his bullshit.
RE: Thibs is exhausting.  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 3:18 pm : link
In comment 15836731 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Two days into camp and I'm already tired of his bullshit.


The funny thing is the media bitched and moaned all summer about not having access and didnt even call out Thibs on his BS..
Knicks posted a video on twitter  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 3:21 pm : link
Grimes is in a walking boot
RE: My  
Jan in DC : 9/28/2022 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15836678 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
concern is that Thibs doesn't seem particularly willing to adjust on the fly. Are there poor matchups for Randle/Obi together? Of course. Are there teams/lineups where their flaws are less of an issue? Yup. What's the path to Obi ever playing 24-25 minutes per night let alone more? IQ and Obi finished strong, what's their reward or earned opportunity? For IQ likely less minutes, Obi... more of the same. Why not Believe in your ability to scheme/play mismatches when they arise vs. closing the door?


This.

Why are we always playing the same teams out there and not exploiting other teams. If they go small, you can get the rebounding you need from Obi/Randle. If a guy is having an off night, you can take him out.

That's why I don't like it when people talk about closing lineups and stuff. We have like 11 players on the roster with unique talents that could all play roles on this team. Be creative and mix and match lineups.
RE: RE: My  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15836747 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15836678 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


concern is that Thibs doesn't seem particularly willing to adjust on the fly. Are there poor matchups for Randle/Obi together? Of course. Are there teams/lineups where their flaws are less of an issue? Yup. What's the path to Obi ever playing 24-25 minutes per night let alone more? IQ and Obi finished strong, what's their reward or earned opportunity? For IQ likely less minutes, Obi... more of the same. Why not Believe in your ability to scheme/play mismatches when they arise vs. closing the door?



This.

Why are we always playing the same teams out there and not exploiting other teams. If they go small, you can get the rebounding you need from Obi/Randle. If a guy is having an off night, you can take him out.

That's why I don't like it when people talk about closing lineups and stuff. We have like 11 players on the roster with unique talents that could all play roles on this team. Be creative and mix and match lineups.


Its crazy because the Knicks should be a handful to scheme against because of all the different combinations to throw out there and they just stick to the same tired rotation and a big man..

Imagine a team trying to go small against the Knicks and the Knicks counter with Randle and Obi and force a smaller player to guard Randle in the post?

You match the speed of a small team and still play with size
Also...  
Jan in DC : 9/28/2022 3:34 pm : link
Hahn on KFTV is a good listen.

He's currently hammering home that the thing that Thibs doesn't like about Obi is his rebounding. If he can get on the boards, he'll get more playing time and saying "you don't always have to leak out".

This is pretty frustrating if true. You have a coach who ALWAYS wants a center on the floor for rim protection and rebounding. Can't the center and guards rebound and a guy who excels at running the floor and getting easy baskets do that? Just reeks of trying to force a player into a role instead of adjusting lineups to accentuate talent.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 3:38 pm : link
Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
·
1h
The two-man lineup of Julius Randle and Obi Toppin posted a POSITIVE Net Rating of +3.7 last season.

The two-man lineup of Randle and Mitch Robinson posted a NEGATIVE Net Rating of -3.6 last season.
RE: Knicks posted a video on twitter  
Del Shofner : 9/28/2022 3:50 pm : link
In comment 15836745 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Grimes is in a walking boot


what the heck happened to him?
Reddish  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 3:56 pm : link
is now wearing 0, last season he wore 21
Keels  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 3:57 pm : link
has quite the unique build for an NBA player
Link - ( New Window )
/  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 4:12 pm : link
Eric Gonzalez
@ericgonzo1208
·
1m
Voice of the @NBA
and @nyknicks
Mike Breen lost his home in a fire on Sunday!! Praying for him and his family! Happy to hear he’s safe! A legend. #Knicks #NBA
RE: RE: Knicks posted a video on twitter  
nygiants16 : 9/28/2022 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15836782 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
In comment 15836745 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Grimes is in a walking boot



what the heck happened to him?


Nobody knows because the beat writers are terrible
RE: RE: RE: Knicks posted a video on twitter  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15836829 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15836782 Del Shofner said:


Quote:


In comment 15836745 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Grimes is in a walking boot



what the heck happened to him?



Nobody knows because the beat writers are terrible


“Minor foot soreness” per Begley
Rose is not pulling the trigger on Thibs  
larryflower37 : 9/28/2022 6:01 pm : link
Unless they lose badly, which I don't see happening because they have talent without the kids. They could win 37-43 games with the current starters
Brunson, Fournier, RJ, Randle and Mitch
And a bench of Hartenstein, Rose, Grimes, Obi, and Cam.
So there is no pressing need to make changes.
Obviously it kills development and hurts the team long term but Thibs is all about winning games and Rose is a big Thibs fan and friend.
I don't think Dolan cares anymore about a championship and just wants to cash checks and not deal with the nonsense. Rose makes it easy.
RE: Knicks posted a video on twitter  
Vanzetti : 9/28/2022 6:36 pm : link
In comment 15836745 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Grimes is in a walking boot


He is probably still better than Fournier defensively
RE: Rose is not pulling the trigger on Thibs  
Vanzetti : 9/28/2022 6:39 pm : link
In comment 15836927 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
Unless they lose badly, which I don't see happening because they have talent without the kids. They could win 37-43 games with the current starters
Brunson, Fournier, RJ, Randle and Mitch
And a bench of Hartenstein, Rose, Grimes, Obi, and Cam.
So there is no pressing need to make changes.
Obviously it kills development and hurts the team long term but Thibs is all about winning games and Rose is a big Thibs fan and friend.
I don't think Dolan cares anymore about a championship and just wants to cash checks and not deal with the nonsense. Rose makes it easy.



I disagree, Larry. Knicks start off badly, Thibs is gone. He is skating on thin ice
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/28/2022 6:53 pm : link
Cam Reddish spent the summer working on his shooting, including shot creation, as well as spending time in the weight room. But when asked Wednesday if it has been made clear to him what he needs to do to get minutes amid a crowded Knicks rotation on the wing, Reddish said he doesn’t quite know.

“I’m still figuring that out. That’s actually a really good question,” Reddish said. “I’m still figuring that out, trying to find my role where I fit in. I’m really willing to do whatever it takes to win. Whatever that role is, whatever it may be, that’s fine with me. We’re winning, we all look good.”

Speaking to media for the first time since The Post reported he wants a change of scenery to a team with which he can seek a larger role, Reddish artfully sidestepped the premise by denying he had requested a trade. Asked whether he wants to stay in New York given the realities of the Knicks’ rotation and his lack of a clear role, Reddish gave a nonanswer.

“I control what I can control,” he said. “So minutes and all that stuff have nothing to do with me. I just come in and do my job. Work as hard as I can every single day. I’m available, I’m healthy. So whatever happens, happens.”
Link - ( New Window )
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/28/2022 7:04 pm : link
Should have fired Thibs after last season. I think he gets during the season if we start out slow/struggling midseason.
This  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 8:34 am : link
was funny and talk about effort lol
Link - ( New Window )
I defended Coughlin and still do  
djm : 9/29/2022 11:32 am : link
defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.


RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2022 11:37 am : link
In comment 15837628 djm said:
Quote:
defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.



just because the replacement sucks doesnt mean the predecesor didnt deserve to be fired..

Woodson did not deserve to be fired, he is about the only one..

Coughlin was done when he got fired
RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 11:37 am : link
In comment 15837628 djm said:
Quote:
defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.



If they win Thibs won't be fired so what exactly would be the "I told you so"? Not being sarcastic here.
RE: RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15837633 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15837628 djm said:


Quote:


defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.





just because the replacement sucks doesnt mean the predecesor didnt deserve to be fired..

Woodson did not deserve to be fired, he is about the only one..

Coughlin was done when he got fired


Agree on both Woodson and Coughlin. Woodson was unfairly terminated because Phil Jackson wanted his own guy. Coughlin's tenure had run it's course. It happens. They won 19 games his final 3 seasons and missed the playoffs his final 4 seasons.
RE: RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
djm : 9/29/2022 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15837636 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 15837628 djm said:


Quote:


defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.





If they win Thibs won't be fired so what exactly would be the "I told you so"? Not being sarcastic here.


If they hire someone worse than Thibs. Just like NYG did with Coughlin/McAdoo and so on. Same with Woodson and whoever the hell replaced him. The new guy isn't always better and that's a brutally bad slippery slope that can literally set a franchise back 5 years.


I do think this regime would do a better job in hiring the right HC, but I am still a little leery of who they would bring in and why wouldn't I be. Thibs is by far the best HC this team has had in years, shortcomings and all.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 12:12 pm : link
The Westchester Knicks, the official NBA G League affiliate of the New York Knicks, announced today that DeSagana Diop has been named the fifth head coach in franchise history.
– via Westchester Knicks
RE: RE: RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
BigBlueShock : 9/29/2022 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15837672 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15837636 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 15837628 djm said:


Quote:


defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.





If they win Thibs won't be fired so what exactly would be the "I told you so"? Not being sarcastic here.



If they hire someone worse than Thibs. Just like NYG did with Coughlin/McAdoo and so on. Same with Woodson and whoever the hell replaced him. The new guy isn't always better and that's a brutally bad slippery slope that can literally set a franchise back 5 years.


I do think this regime would do a better job in hiring the right HC, but I am still a little leery of who they would bring in and why wouldn't I be. Thibs is by far the best HC this team has had in years, shortcomings and all.

You don’t keep a coach simply because his replacement may end up being worse. And defending him at every turn because you’re afraid his replacement may be worse is just as lame. Unless of course you’re perfectly content with mediocrity because you’re too afraid of the risk of change, which seems to be the case with you. The next guy may suck. That doesn’t make current man the best man for the job
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 12:13 pm : link
RE: RE: RE: RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
djm : 9/29/2022 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15837691 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15837672 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15837636 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 15837628 djm said:


Quote:


defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.





If they win Thibs won't be fired so what exactly would be the "I told you so"? Not being sarcastic here.



If they hire someone worse than Thibs. Just like NYG did with Coughlin/McAdoo and so on. Same with Woodson and whoever the hell replaced him. The new guy isn't always better and that's a brutally bad slippery slope that can literally set a franchise back 5 years.


I do think this regime would do a better job in hiring the right HC, but I am still a little leery of who they would bring in and why wouldn't I be. Thibs is by far the best HC this team has had in years, shortcomings and all.


You don’t keep a coach simply because his replacement may end up being worse. And defending him at every turn because you’re afraid his replacement may be worse is just as lame. Unless of course you’re perfectly content with mediocrity because you’re too afraid of the risk of change, which seems to be the case with you. The next guy may suck. That doesn’t make current man the best man for the job


I am defending him because I think he's a good coach. I don't want to hire a bad coach here. He's underrated here in my view.
If the Knicks start slow  
Mike from SI : 9/29/2022 12:53 pm : link
the fans will be all over Thibs and Randle.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I defended Coughlin and still do  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2022 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15837732 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15837691 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 15837672 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15837636 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 15837628 djm said:


Quote:


defended Woodson (and was here when people waxed poetic about his coaching tenure with NYK) and I will defend Thibs. I only pray I am not saying I told you so if/when his replacement sucks ass and doesn't get this team to play hard on defense, more often than not.





If they win Thibs won't be fired so what exactly would be the "I told you so"? Not being sarcastic here.



If they hire someone worse than Thibs. Just like NYG did with Coughlin/McAdoo and so on. Same with Woodson and whoever the hell replaced him. The new guy isn't always better and that's a brutally bad slippery slope that can literally set a franchise back 5 years.


I do think this regime would do a better job in hiring the right HC, but I am still a little leery of who they would bring in and why wouldn't I be. Thibs is by far the best HC this team has had in years, shortcomings and all.


You don’t keep a coach simply because his replacement may end up being worse. And defending him at every turn because you’re afraid his replacement may be worse is just as lame. Unless of course you’re perfectly content with mediocrity because you’re too afraid of the risk of change, which seems to be the case with you. The next guy may suck. That doesn’t make current man the best man for the job



I am defending him because I think he's a good coach. I don't want to hire a bad coach here. He's underrated here in my view.


He is a good coach who is stubborn and not a fit for the future of this team
Thibs is a good coach  
BigBlueShock : 9/29/2022 1:18 pm : link
Nobody is saying he’s not. I just don’t think he’s the best fit for the roster they’ve put together. Not all his fault of course, but Thibs wants to play defense and a slow half court game to minimize possessions while he’s got a roster full of mostly poor defenders that are at their best getting out in transition and playing uptempo.

Feel free to blame the front office if you’d like, it’s perfectly reasonable. But either way the roster constructed is the opposite, skill/style wise, of what Thibs works with best. And he’s proven too stubborn and/or incapable of adjusting to the players’ skillsets to maximize their capabilities
If we're completely honest...  
Jan in DC : 9/29/2022 2:00 pm : link
Thibs is a bullet-proof vest for this front office. Not firing him was a no brainer because he's the next person in line in the blame game.

That's why it was very predictable that this front office isn't going to mandate Thibs make changes to the rotation at any point. If they do, it's harder for him to take the fall for their roster construction.
Thibs gets a lot of shit on this board and on knicks twitter  
Heisenberg : 9/29/2022 3:17 pm : link
But he deserves credit for the job he's done. He's brought a lot of stability to the franchise and has coached the roster he's been given really well. Unless you really want a tank commander like Ainge just set up in Utah, he's a really good coach and the best coach we've had since JVG.

We didn't like seeing so much Burks but he did what he thought was best after Kemba was clearly cooked and Rose got hurt. This year, we won't have that happen because the roster is better and PG should be a LOT deeper and IQ showed he can get the job done.

We don't like Randle over Obi but Randle is also their best player and the best player gets a long run to straighten himself out. Maybe he does this year.

He may not give the kids a lot of minutes but they have developed under him and gotten better each year and as each season has gone along. He gave the young guys run down the stretch. He should also get some credit for that.

This is the deepest Knicks team I've followed. But it lacks star players and so we'll lose some games because of it. And when we do and we are pissed off about it, the guys on the bench are going to look much better to us than the guys that just lost.
RE: Thibs gets a lot of shit on this board and on knicks twitter  
Jan in DC : 9/29/2022 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15837913 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
But he deserves credit for the job he's done. He's brought a lot of stability to the franchise and has coached the roster he's been given really well. Unless you really want a tank commander like Ainge just set up in Utah, he's a really good coach and the best coach we've had since JVG.

We didn't like seeing so much Burks but he did what he thought was best after Kemba was clearly cooked and Rose got hurt. This year, we won't have that happen because the roster is better and PG should be a LOT deeper and IQ showed he can get the job done.

We don't like Randle over Obi but Randle is also their best player and the best player gets a long run to straighten himself out. Maybe he does this year.

He may not give the kids a lot of minutes but they have developed under him and gotten better each year and as each season has gone along. He gave the young guys run down the stretch. He should also get some credit for that.

This is the deepest Knicks team I've followed. But it lacks star players and so we'll lose some games because of it. And when we do and we are pissed off about it, the guys on the bench are going to look much better to us than the guys that just lost.


I agree with SOME of your points. Like Thibs definitely deserves credit for developing the kids and putting them in a situation to succeed. He's really good at the things he's really good at. Coaching team defense, making sure the young guys are accountable, Team preparation and film study.

But, some of the stuff you said is worse than you made it out to be. Sure, we didn't have a PG with Rose and Kemba being hurt and sucking last year. But you can't give Burks 36 minutes down the stretch. Even after we're elimiated from playoff contention, he got more minutes that Quickley and McBride. They only made Julius sit for the last 5 games.

Also, I think the biggest thing is if he was really interested in winning, he would recognize that some of these younger players are more effective in their minutes than their vet counterparts and yet he still insists on these rotation patterns that favor what he thinks SHOULD work the best.
Thibs was awful last year  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2022 3:43 pm : link
any way you want to paint it he was an awful coach, thw year before he was a great coach got a lot out of team with little talent..

But last year it was terrible, it was stubborn and lacked any willingness to try anything different because he had to play his guys and that was it.

There is example after example of him costing the team games because of his stubborness and need to have Burks and Randle cllse games..It cost them at minimum 5 games last year..

He is a good coach who is not a fit for this team, this team actually can have some fun lineups, will we see them? absolutely not. Mitch or Hartenstein will play the entire 48 at the 5, Randle and Toppin will play the entire 48 at the 4..He is to rigid and that wont change..

Last year was proof he will never change
i'll give you that he had a bad year  
djm : 9/29/2022 4:09 pm : link
but I don't think it's a certainty that he has another bad year in 22. We shall see.

I mean there has to be one of us that defends Thibs right? IT's boring otherwise, lol.

Go Knicks.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 4:09 pm : link
Knicks Videos
@sny_knicks
"It's not only the numbers, I actually watch the games"

Tom Thibodeau argues that blowouts last year skewed the statistics of the Obi Toppin-Julius Randle pairing:
RE: .  
nygiants16 : 9/29/2022 4:15 pm : link
In comment 15837960 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks Videos
@sny_knicks
"It's not only the numbers, I actually watch the games"

Tom Thibodeau argues that blowouts last year skewed the statistics of the Obi Toppin-Julius Randle pairing:


Thibs should just go up there and say "i am a stubborn coach who needs to stick with a shot blocker at all times"
Thibs should just say  
larryflower37 : 9/29/2022 5:37 pm : link
Fuck you, I do what I want..
It would probably make it easier on the fan base to understand.
That's his basic attitude towards everything everyone else say in regards to minutes, starters, plays, stats, etc.
It's obvious he answers to no one which had overwhelming success in Minnesota.
Just fire this clown already, I didn't want him when we hired him and he has done exactly what I expected.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/29/2022 5:39 pm : link
9. New York Knicks
Average wins: 41.5

The Knicks are atop a crowded pack of contenders for spots in the play-in tournament after adding Jalen Brunson in free agency. Additionally, New York should benefit from the pull of regression following a dramatic defensive decline in Tom Thibodeau's second season at the helm.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: .  
BigBlueShock : 9/29/2022 5:46 pm : link
In comment 15837960 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks Videos
@sny_knicks
"It's not only the numbers, I actually watch the games"

Tom Thibodeau argues that blowouts last year skewed the statistics of the Obi Toppin-Julius Randle pairing:

Could really do without the “I’m an NBA coach and you’re all nobodies so don’t question me” bullshit from Thibs. He said something similar last season in regards to watching the games more than them.

How about you just answer the question? “I actually watch the games” accomplishes what, exactly? Arrogant fuck.
Thibodeau may be washed up  
ghost718 : 9/29/2022 6:31 pm : link
But I'm also a believer in a Garden Curse,where the mind enters a fog soon after being hired.

But I'll say this,I'm surprised Thibodeau gets blamed for some things,such as Randle. He was doing whatever he wanted long before he got here.

I think Knick decisions,like Giants decisions,are often based on internal politics.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/29/2022 6:51 pm : link
The Athletic had an article earlier about Zion. Apparently he's looking amazing thus far, as early as it is.
RE: ...  
larryflower37 : 9/29/2022 7:09 pm : link
In comment 15838074 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
The Athletic had an article earlier about Zion. Apparently he's looking amazing thus far, as early as it is.

Not surprising at all but let's see him stay healthy for 82 games. The talent is obvious.
I'm sure Jones has better things to worry about  
ghost718 : 9/29/2022 7:24 pm : link
like the Giants bringing in the next Roger Lewis to bolster the receiving core.
shit wrong thread  
ghost718 : 9/29/2022 7:24 pm : link
.
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