Is this a baseline at least the majority of us can agree on?
1) He plays hard and tough and is giving everything he has to this team.
2) He can make plays with his legs and is good when he tucks it and runs.
3) When he has time and is in rhythm he can make some very nice throws downfield.
4) When his first read is not open, Jones struggles to make second and third reads.
5) He holds the ball too long and often does not feel the pressure around him in the pocket.
6) He will likely not get a second contract with the Giants.
7) He will likely sign somewhere else as a bridge/competition guy or high end backup.
I am accused of being a Jones basher, but I think this is a pretty middle-of-the road take on the guy.
Really good WR's want to play for Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Allen, Etc.
We need to consider this when drafting our next QB!
Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
1. His WRs can't get open or be trusted to be in the right place
2. It's on him, but it's probable he's not 100% comfortable with the new offense yet.
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing anything short of "Jones is really good but the team around him sucks" would not be viewed as anything other than biased hatred?
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negative take look like if this is middle of the road? Do you really think your opening platitudes disguised where you were going?
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing....
yes, you are guessing
where any blame placed on Jones and not on the WRs and OL is Fake News
The entire team, outside of Williams, Barkley, Thomas and McKinney sucks right now
Period
He’s not Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow (no shit) but I think a better team can win with him at QB.
I don’t think he’s the guy here as timing is now not on his side.
I think it's unequivocal that Jones does not have the force multiplier gene to make others better. That would be on my list.
Pretty much a organizational failure for a decade.
The problem with the QB guru crowd is they fail to see how bad the support has been around the QB. This does not have to mean Jones is a outstanding QB if he had a great system around him. Simply means the team failed to help him reach his potential on his rookie contract and now probably becomes cost prohibitive.
I think one other thing we can agree on is that he has been dealt a bad hand, given the lack of talent around him. That said, there are areas where Jones just hasn’t shown enough improvement - processing, recognizing blitzes and pocket awareness. NFL QB is a REALLY hard job, most guys fail at it, or at least don’t succeed to the level teams are looking for.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
He’s not Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow (no shit) but I think a better team can win with him at QB.
I don’t think he’s the guy here as timing is now not on his side.
We'd be much better with Haskins
Being a top 3 player because the rest of the offense is bad doesn’t mean you get to stay.
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In comment 15835065 Bill in UT said:
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negative take look like if this is middle of the road? Do you really think your opening platitudes disguised where you were going?
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing....
yes, you are guessing
Judging by the rest of the responses and your's being an outlier, I think it is a pretty good guess.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
How he looks in this offense. He’s looked better each week let’s see if the trend continues.
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
An A + A = A argument.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
The one where Sills fell down on his own? The QB can't anticipate a WR just falling down when he cuts. That pick was on Sills, not Jones.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
"And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?"
"And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?"
....WELL, if you were watching you might have noticed David Sills slipped and fell, leading directly to the INT.
I'm not going to argue with you about Jones. I'll just say that this is Daboll/Schoen's call. Daboll seems to think Jones is progressing. We'll see if it's enough by the end of the season to see if he's brought back.
You have made you opinion well known on this site, to the point of ad nauseam.
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
There’s a better chance Wilson returns to his old form at some point this season than Jones performing like prime Wilson, though
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Nonsense. Great players persevere over adversity.
now what? if coaching staff think Tyrod gives this team more chances to win then let's put him in... DJ will not be a Giant next year (unless they bring him back on a 2/3 year back up deal) so let's move on and see if TT can be our QB going forward (even if we draft one high).
don't understand the 2 extreme arguments that dominate this board.
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In comment 15835104 Producer said:
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
I enjoy watching football. You should try it.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
You mean the pick that Daboll said was on the WR? This is why you lose credibility. Your hatred of this player distorts objectivity.
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
My bad. He is a thread killer
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
ilk?? Lol. Can't take a contrary opinion? The data supports my position that Jones is not good. If it upsets you, look to Giants management. I didn't draft him, they did.
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In comment 15835057 guitarguybs12 said:
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
oh come on Producer, he wasn't comparing their athletic ability, he was just stating the teams were built from the ground up to suit their individual skill sets to give them the best chance at developmental success.
I have been his critic, If Jones won last night, it would have changed my tune because of the importance of the circumstance. Had he risen in that situation, he would have DESERVED the credit. He did not.
JUST
A
GUY.
He has PROVEN that much for sure.
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May be looking forward to a new start with a different organization that has their shit together. Not defending him but the amount of change and lack of support via quality players around him, would make it difficult for anyone to succeed
Nonsense. Great players persevere over adversity.
Jones is not a great player but probably serviceable with a strong supporting cast. Maybe only as a strong backup.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
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In comment 15835148 j_rud said:
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In comment 15835057 guitarguybs12 said:
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
oh come on Producer, he wasn't comparing their athletic ability, he was just stating the teams were built from the ground up to suit their individual skill sets to give them the best chance at developmental success.
He said they have athlwtic traits to build upon and he compared Jones to Allen/Hurts directly. But athletically they aren't that similar, that's my point. Look I never thought Hurts would succeed, but he's a quick twitch athlete. Jones isn't. It's a bad comparison. He doesn't have their skills.
What's the market for Jones?
What does the NFL think of him?
I think at this point, he is who he is. If you need more time to figure it out - I think you've got your answer.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
Forget Lamar and Allen - two MVP candiates.
Make a list of QBs you would take over Jones for 2022-2025 (limiting the years so we don't rule out a few older QBs)
For me it would be:
Allen
Herbert
Mahomes
Burrow
Lawrence
Rodgers
Wilson
Cousins
Hurts
Stafford
Carr
Murray
Tua
Same tier:
Jones
Goff
Mac Jones
Geno
Mills
Wilson
Wentz
Wouldn't touch:
Tannehill
Mariota
Flacco
Ryan
Winston
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Jones doesn’t produce enough. Not enough TD’s. If a QB needs everything *perfect* around him to succeed, that’s a backup QB. Look at Cooper Rush.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
Forget Lamar and Allen - two MVP candiates.
Make a list of QBs you would take over Jones for 2022-2025 (limiting the years so we don't rule out a few older QBs)
For me it would be:
Allen
Herbert
Mahomes
Burrow
Lawrence
Rodgers
Wilson
Cousins
Hurts
Stafford
Carr
Murray
Tua
Same tier:
Jones
Goff
Mac Jones
Geno
Mills
Wilson
Wentz
Wouldn't touch:
Tannehill
Mariota
Flacco
Ryan
Winston
Forgot Lamar
So that is 14 QBs I would take over Daniel Jones for the next 3 years.
Which means exactly what most have been saying. Jones is at best an average QB
I would say that he has shown some improvement in pocket presence, but still needs a lot of work.
The OL continues to struggle. That said, he definitely holds the ball too long. His biggest fault IMO.
He has good arm talent. (Example: He made one incredible off platform throw last night.)
His receivers repeatedly let him down at the worst times possible. Its almost comical (to quote Tiki)
He may be here next year, but not on a mega-contract.
Cowherd - ( New Window )
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
Yep. Time's up, basically. This is not the 80s, or even the early 00s. Cap rules + rookie contracts mean that the Giants can't wait for the roster to get better around Jones. Either Jones gets better this year, now, or the Giants move on. There's no viable middle ground.
He had a decent game last night under adversity. If that were year 2 I would have been all in. It's year 4; you need more than that.
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In comment 15835118 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15835104 Producer said:
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
I enjoy watching football. You should try it.
I've watched way more football than you.
Would having those things matter?
Who will be better than Jones while having a bad OL and no WRs?
If they can find a better QB, do it. But there is no one out there except Stroud and Young where you can say yes, he will be better - and many here dont want Young
I see why people dont think Jones should stay, and dont disagree IF you can find someone better - and that will be the problem
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In comment 15835146 Producer said:
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In comment 15835118 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15835104 Producer said:
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
I enjoy watching football. You should try it.
I've watched way more football than you.
Says the guy still adamantly blaming Jones for an INT where Sills fell down in his break as Jones was releasing the ball
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In comment 15835104 Producer said:
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
No your problem is your think you are right all the time and your not
Jones has crap around him and the line was a sieve last night and no got open except Sheppard who is out for the year and more than likely his career is over
He was JAG, again.
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If there's no better option in 2023, there probably won't be a better season from the QB position. Based on three seasons plus three games, I remain in the column of wanting to hit eject.
If Jomes had been the reason we won last night, THAT would have moved the needle.
He was JAG, again.
Agreed. If the Giants had somehow gone the length of the field and won the game in the final seconds last night, I might have a different perspective this morning. And the end of the drive was not his fault.
But fair's got nothing to do with it, as they say.
OP nailed it and I agree on all accounts. I don’t understand the nitpicking of every mistake or those holding out hope that he’ll be more than he is. We know what Jones is at this point.
it seems to me some here are arguing against ghosts.
he is 99% gone after this season. that is almost irrefutable, and I support it.
but for anyone who can't even acknowledge he has been put in a less than ideal situation or want to blame him for everything (like end of game INT's despite visual evidence to the contrary) aren't worth the time to have a discussion with.
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May be looking forward to a new start with a different organization that has their shit together. Not defending him but the amount of change and lack of support via quality players around him, would make it difficult for anyone to succeed
Nonsense. Great players persevere over adversity.
First,Jones did persevere. He and Barkley kept the Giants in the game. Second, give me the name of the QB that would have won the game last night with the same O line, the same amount of pressure, and same caliber WRs/TEs.
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But I also trust the current regime knows what they're doing. I thought it was right not to extend the contract, but I see him improving under constant fire. Fumbling seems to have disappeared. The decisions were good (generally), and he's as competitive as you can want. This is not Dave Brown. The guy has talent. But before chucking a guy - I need to know the alternative. Because BBI seems to think that it's Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers or bust. Would you want Russell Wilson now?
There’s a better chance Wilson returns to his old form at some point this season than Jones performing like prime Wilson, though
Ok, fair point...but Jones is improving, Wilson may be permanently declining. The issue is whether Jones has reached his ceiling, and I still think we don't know - but he's improved IMO. And the other issue is what you're giving up to find out. Signing Jones to one more year vs. trading the farm.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
How about Brady & Rodgers Sunday ? Did they do much better than Jones ?
Well, let's see - for starters, those two have a bit more of a track record than Jones. For another thing, Tom Brady is 45 years old and Aaron Rodgers is 38 years old.
But his best just doesn't do it for me.
Time to move towards a different path at QB this next offseason...
But talent around him is so sub par makes it hard to know what really goes on
and no qb with this shitty protection last night would have success, doesnt really mater who u put in behind center
BUMP. Best thing I've heard.
But we all need to understand something. This guys 2 best receivers at getting separation are not on the field in Toney and Robinson. Shepard was our best WR and now he is done. We have a rookie RT who is still learning the footwork for the position and a rebuilt OL.
He has 3 turnovers in 3 games and 2 of them aren't his fault. He is improving but right now he cannot make up for the weaknesses on this team and carry them on his back, although he tried real hard last night.
Jones is here for this year. We really need to let this play out and see how it ends. He may surprise you, especially if we can get some production out of the WR's siting on the sideline.
5) He holds the ball too long and often does not feel the pressure around him in the pocket.
If he's holding the ball too long what do you think he's doing back there, ordering Chinese take-out?
Show us a post of you saying at anytime before this year...
We don't care if it's a different handle and it will prove you were right all along...
Did you catch that? There's a Twitter. That's gotta be a hell of a ride.
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In comment 15835295 JonC said:
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If there's no better option in 2023, there probably won't be a better season from the QB position. Based on three seasons plus three games, I remain in the column of wanting to hit eject.
If Jomes had been the reason we won last night, THAT would have moved the needle.
He was JAG, again.
Agreed. If the Giants had somehow gone the length of the field and won the game in the final seconds last night, I might have a different perspective this morning. And the end of the drive was not his fault.
But fair's got nothing to do with it, as they say.
Not what ifs.
Boomer - ( New Window )
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you know you can find a post or two from the last few years.
Did you catch that? There's a Twitter. That's gotta be a hell of a ride.
St Albans used to post on here like it was Twitter...
@ColinCowherd
NYG fans pointing fingers at the problems. Your QB isn’t talented enough to ever be the SOLUTION. Salary caps create imperfections. Elite QB’s overcome those. Why Mcvay moved off Goff. Wanted SOLUTIONS in critical situations when shit hit the fan — like 4Q vs Tampa. DJ isn’t it.
St Albans used to post on here like it was Twitter...
I've tried to place the handle or at least the ridiculousness of the posts, and I just don't remember someone like it!
He sounds senile...DeMarcus Ware??
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In comment 15835735 Jimmy Googs said:
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you know you can find a post or two from the last few years.
Did you catch that? There's a Twitter. That's gotta be a hell of a ride.
St Albans used to post on here like it was Twitter...
Poor little dupe dumbass. Tell us LEH15, what did you do to get yourself suspended so you had to sneak back in here under your jimmy dumbass handle?
So go ahead and identify me, because I'm not a dupe. This has been my only handle here
And you never answer me LEH15, why did you get suspended so you had to sneak in under this new name?
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chucklehead to the end...
So go ahead and identify me, because I'm not a dupe. This has been my only handle here
And you never answer me LEH15, why did you get suspended so you had to sneak in under this new name?
I certainly did answer you.
And you are St. Albans or Daehelkcuhc spelled backwards...either works.
You have never even ADMITTED it!
You have never even ADMITTED it!
It’s right above chuckles. I said I can’t help you there. It’s not my handle...
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on why you were suspended from this site when you were posting as LEH15 and had to sneak back in under your current handle
You have never even ADMITTED it!
It’s right above chuckles. I said I can’t help you there. It’s not my handle...
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on why you were suspended from this site when you were posting as LEH15 and had to sneak back in under your current handle
You have never even ADMITTED it!
It’s right above chuckles. I said I can’t help you there. It’s not my handle...
Liar
You are a liar and a dupe
Is his 2nd read open?
Was he flushed to the opposite side of the field from his #2?
Too many variables.
What I see is a player that is still trying not to lose.
I realize that when he was forced to step up that he likely saw that he could get a 1st down and didn't look to fit a ball downfield into a window. Jones needs to make a big play, he needs to take opportunities, ignore the peanut gallery and put the ball in the endzone.
With this team, he's going to be limited...but he has to take shots. He's got to be the reason the Giants win. Not Barkley, not the defense.
Plus it was drilled into his head for the last 2 years to not take any chances, or shots down the field
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The 2 camps are more divided on how Jones should be evaluated than the evaluation itself at this point.
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
Yep. Time's up, basically. This is not the 80s, or even the early 00s. Cap rules + rookie contracts mean that the Giants can't wait for the roster to get better around Jones. Either Jones gets better this year, now, or the Giants move on. There's no viable middle ground.
He had a decent game last night under adversity. If that were year 2 I would have been all in. It's year 4; you need more than that.
If after watching Monday night and seeing what he had to do to make any plays you still think this kid sucks your all blind. some of the analysis on the sight is just God awful. When he is able to step up in the pocket and make a real throw let me know. Last ime that occurred was when Gates was the C. Hopefully he will be back after game 6 will not hold my breath though. DJ like any QB needs time. Take a look at Brady's stats this year. I believe he has no TD's in the 1st half, does he all of a sudden suck, is he not seeing his 2nd read? He is not mobile, his OL is playing like dog crap due to injuries along their OL.
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In comment 15835066 Blue The Dog said:
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The 2 camps are more divided on how Jones should be evaluated than the evaluation itself at this point.
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
Yep. Time's up, basically. This is not the 80s, or even the early 00s. Cap rules + rookie contracts mean that the Giants can't wait for the roster to get better around Jones. Either Jones gets better this year, now, or the Giants move on. There's no viable middle ground.
He had a decent game last night under adversity. If that were year 2 I would have been all in. It's year 4; you need more than that.
If after watching Monday night and seeing what he had to do to make any plays you still think this kid sucks your all blind. some of the analysis on the sight is just God awful. When he is able to step up in the pocket and make a real throw let me know. Last ime that occurred was when Gates was the C. Hopefully he will be back after game 6 will not hold my breath though. DJ like any QB needs time. Take a look at Brady's stats this year. I believe he has no TD's in the 1st half, does he all of a sudden suck, is he not seeing his 2nd read? He is not mobile, his OL is playing like dog crap due to injuries along their OL.
Jones had a good game, I agree.
However at this point in his career it's the equivalent of having an empty gas tank and putting in $2 worth of gas. Didn't move the needle much
Because finding common ground in a discussion is what humans try to do. Setting a baseline that everyone can agree to allows the conversation to become more nuanced and go beyond "he sucks" "oh yeah, you suck."
This board will always have the "I have an opinion and fuck you if you disagree with me" posters. This thread wasn't intended for them/you.
Yeah, I'm not sure why ever since the Giants didn't pick up the 5th year option, the narrative has been that they'd be left with only these three choices at the end of the year:
A) sign him to a big contract
B) use the franchise tag on him
C) let him go
Everyone seems to agree he's not worth a big contract right now, so who else would be offering him this big contract that would necessitate A or B if the Giants decide they'd like to keep him around? I wouldn't at all be surprised if it ended up as
D) let him shop himself around as a starter and then sign him to a reasonable contract when he finds nobody considers him worth a big contract.
that and the asshole jones-hater fans. if you grew up in the area, you understand that critical over-the-top hyperbolic mentality, but if not, wtf would you want to put up with that sh*t?
after all, we won with hostetler who wasn't an all-pro or considered a top-10 QB. Jones certainly could develop into a top 10-15 QB.
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May be looking forward to a new start with a different organization that has their shit together. Not defending him but the amount of change and lack of support via quality players around him, would make it difficult for anyone to succeed
that and the asshole jones-hater fans. if you grew up in the area, you understand that critical over-the-top hyperbolic mentality, but if not, wtf would you want to put up with that sh*t?