Is this a baseline at least the majority of us can agree on?
1) He plays hard and tough and is giving everything he has to this team.
2) He can make plays with his legs and is good when he tucks it and runs.
3) When he has time and is in rhythm he can make some very nice throws downfield.
4) When his first read is not open, Jones struggles to make second and third reads.
5) He holds the ball too long and often does not feel the pressure around him in the pocket.
6) He will likely not get a second contract with the Giants.
7) He will likely sign somewhere else as a bridge/competition guy or high end backup.
I am accused of being a Jones basher, but I think this is a pretty middle-of-the road take on the guy.
Really good WR's want to play for Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Allen, Etc.
We need to consider this when drafting our next QB!
Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
1. His WRs can't get open or be trusted to be in the right place
2. It's on him, but it's probable he's not 100% comfortable with the new offense yet.
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing anything short of "Jones is really good but the team around him sucks" would not be viewed as anything other than biased hatred?
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negative take look like if this is middle of the road? Do you really think your opening platitudes disguised where you were going?
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing....
yes, you are guessing
where any blame placed on Jones and not on the WRs and OL is Fake News
The entire team, outside of Williams, Barkley, Thomas and McKinney sucks right now
Period
He’s not Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow (no shit) but I think a better team can win with him at QB.
I don’t think he’s the guy here as timing is now not on his side.
I think it's unequivocal that Jones does not have the force multiplier gene to make others better. That would be on my list.
Pretty much a organizational failure for a decade.
The problem with the QB guru crowd is they fail to see how bad the support has been around the QB. This does not have to mean Jones is a outstanding QB if he had a great system around him. Simply means the team failed to help him reach his potential on his rookie contract and now probably becomes cost prohibitive.
I think one other thing we can agree on is that he has been dealt a bad hand, given the lack of talent around him. That said, there are areas where Jones just hasn’t shown enough improvement - processing, recognizing blitzes and pocket awareness. NFL QB is a REALLY hard job, most guys fail at it, or at least don’t succeed to the level teams are looking for.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
He’s not Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow (no shit) but I think a better team can win with him at QB.
I don’t think he’s the guy here as timing is now not on his side.
We'd be much better with Haskins
Being a top 3 player because the rest of the offense is bad doesn’t mean you get to stay.
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In comment 15835065 Bill in UT said:
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negative take look like if this is middle of the road? Do you really think your opening platitudes disguised where you were going?
A negative thread would be "dude sucks." But based on your response, I am guessing....
yes, you are guessing
Judging by the rest of the responses and your's being an outlier, I think it is a pretty good guess.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
How he looks in this offense. He’s looked better each week let’s see if the trend continues.
Camp A argues that because of the talent around him, you can't prove he sucks.
Camp B argues that because he hasn't played well, you can't prove he is good.
In the 4th year, it no longer matters if you can't prove he sucks. He needs to be demonstrably, consistently good
An A + A = A argument.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
The one where Sills fell down on his own? The QB can't anticipate a WR just falling down when he cuts. That pick was on Sills, not Jones.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
"And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?"
"And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?"
....WELL, if you were watching you might have noticed David Sills slipped and fell, leading directly to the INT.
I'm not going to argue with you about Jones. I'll just say that this is Daboll/Schoen's call. Daboll seems to think Jones is progressing. We'll see if it's enough by the end of the season to see if he's brought back.
You have made you opinion well known on this site, to the point of ad nauseam.
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
There’s a better chance Wilson returns to his old form at some point this season than Jones performing like prime Wilson, though
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Nonsense. Great players persevere over adversity.
now what? if coaching staff think Tyrod gives this team more chances to win then let's put him in... DJ will not be a Giant next year (unless they bring him back on a 2/3 year back up deal) so let's move on and see if TT can be our QB going forward (even if we draft one high).
don't understand the 2 extreme arguments that dominate this board.
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In comment 15835104 Producer said:
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but more likely 25th best QB in the league.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
Because anyone with football knowledge knows it was a pick because Sills fell and Diggs ran his route for him
You must enjoy losing.
I enjoy watching football. You should try it.
Making some nice plays or have a couple of good games is meaningless if it's mixed in with subpar play, lack of production, and mistakes. A lot of bad QBs flash some decent play. We can't keep pretending Jones is better than he has shown and keep squandering years.
And why is nobody talking about the pick to end the game with over a minute left to play?
You mean the pick that Daboll said was on the WR? This is why you lose credibility. Your hatred of this player distorts objectivity.
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
My bad. He is a thread killer
it's like having a Skip Bayless type on BBI. Ignore them and they will whither away.
ilk?? Lol. Can't take a contrary opinion? The data supports my position that Jones is not good. If it upsets you, look to Giants management. I didn't draft him, they did.
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In comment 15835057 guitarguybs12 said:
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
oh come on Producer, he wasn't comparing their athletic ability, he was just stating the teams were built from the ground up to suit their individual skill sets to give them the best chance at developmental success.
I have been his critic, If Jones won last night, it would have changed my tune because of the importance of the circumstance. Had he risen in that situation, he would have DESERVED the credit. He did not.
JUST
A
GUY.
He has PROVEN that much for sure.
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May be looking forward to a new start with a different organization that has their shit together. Not defending him but the amount of change and lack of support via quality players around him, would make it difficult for anyone to succeed
Nonsense. Great players persevere over adversity.
Jones is not a great player but probably serviceable with a strong supporting cast. Maybe only as a strong backup.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
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In comment 15835148 j_rud said:
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In comment 15835057 guitarguybs12 said:
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. Organizational Failure Re: Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Thats a tough listen when you consider the success Philly has had in building up Hurts. The worse case scenario for us was Hurts becoming a player and Philly having all those extra premium picks to just bolster the roster while we're about to head back into the QB market.
Greeny has it wrong. There is no comparison between Allen/Hurts and Jones athletically. Allen and Hurts are quick twitch athletes. Jones is slow except when it comes to long speed.
oh come on Producer, he wasn't comparing their athletic ability, he was just stating the teams were built from the ground up to suit their individual skill sets to give them the best chance at developmental success.
He said they have athlwtic traits to build upon and he compared Jones to Allen/Hurts directly. But athletically they aren't that similar, that's my point. Look I never thought Hurts would succeed, but he's a quick twitch athlete. Jones isn't. It's a bad comparison. He doesn't have their skills.
What's the market for Jones?
What does the NFL think of him?
I think at this point, he is who he is. If you need more time to figure it out - I think you've got your answer.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
Forget Lamar and Allen - two MVP candiates.
Make a list of QBs you would take over Jones for 2022-2025 (limiting the years so we don't rule out a few older QBs)
For me it would be:
Allen
Herbert
Mahomes
Burrow
Lawrence
Rodgers
Wilson
Cousins
Hurts
Stafford
Carr
Murray
Tua
Same tier:
Jones
Goff
Mac Jones
Geno
Mills
Wilson
Wentz
Wouldn't touch:
Tannehill
Mariota
Flacco
Ryan
Winston
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Jones doesn’t produce enough. Not enough TD’s. If a QB needs everything *perfect* around him to succeed, that’s a backup QB. Look at Cooper Rush.
If the Giants are going to give Jones a new contract, he needs to be looked at against guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. Allen has overcome a bad OL and no running game. Jackson has overcome losing his best WR and LT. Burrow overcame an awful OL last year.
Jones doesn’t produce enough and there will be cheaper options next year with no drop off in production.
Forget Lamar and Allen - two MVP candiates.
Make a list of QBs you would take over Jones for 2022-2025 (limiting the years so we don't rule out a few older QBs)
For me it would be:
Allen
Herbert
Mahomes
Burrow
Lawrence
Rodgers
Wilson
Cousins
Hurts
Stafford
Carr
Murray
Tua
Same tier:
Jones
Goff
Mac Jones
Geno
Mills
Wilson
Wentz
Wouldn't touch:
Tannehill
Mariota
Flacco
Ryan
Winston
Forgot Lamar
So that is 14 QBs I would take over Daniel Jones for the next 3 years.
Which means exactly what most have been saying. Jones is at best an average QB