Is this a baseline that intelligent and knowledgable Giants fans can all agree on?
1) He gave an heroic performance last night, keeping the team in a game in which they were thoroughly outplayed on both sides of the LOS and his receivers were possibly the worst group of receivers ever to take the field on game day.
2) None of us have any idea what Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka think of Jones, nor do we have any idea if they plan on keeping him around next year (whether it be on a multi-year deal, a one or two year deal, or under the franchise tag).
He played outstanding, putting the offense on his shoulders, and I’m convinced that he is going to take a team deep into the playoffs.
Which team? Who knows.
Jones is also not the long-term solution at QB.
Both things can be true.
Schematically, they run a good system on both sides of the ball. I like the approach. When Schoen can get some better players, they'll improve. They're limited with the mess that Gettleman left behind.
You think you know, but you don't know... - ( New Window )
(At least in their instant reaction episodes)
I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones.
We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players.
And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine).
We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent.
Except that Daboll/Kafka/Schoen had not had the chance to work with him at the time his option would have needed to be excercised...and when I say work with him, I mean in-season.
I have no idea if they are going to re-sign him. I do know that Daboll praised his progress last night and his decision making with the ball 2 weeks in a row (unless we're going to go down the conspiracy road that he is intentionally lying to us).
The rule of "they tell you what they think of the player by excercising the 5th year option" seems really to only apply to those that have completely broken out and/or have the same management team in place that drafted them.
This is a 17 week final exam for Jones, we just completed week 3. The evaluation continues until further notice.
Someday the QB gurus may figure it out. Not.
QB play is dependent on a lot of factors. Jones probably is not the long term answer but a alternative will not be as easy as some think.
That is what this year is about. Seeing what Jones potential is versus potential alternative solutions and if they are practical.
Build the best possible team regardless.
That was Dave Gettleman for one. Two, it was $6M. Jones' 5th year option was around $22-23M. They could have liked what they saw on tape and it still wouldn't make sense for a new regime to lock themselves into that when guys like Mariota and Trubisky are getting $7-9M/year on the open market.
Do we?
Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.
Come now. Picking up a TE's contract is a world away from the commitment for a QB these days. Its not the same discussion.
(At least in their instant reaction episodes)
I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones.
We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players.
And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine).
We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent.
Nobody said he was the problem. But just because he wasn’t last night doesn’t mean he isn’t one the problems.
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The only way to make an intelligent assessment is by watching the all 22. How many reads didn't he make, or open receivers he didn't see etcetera.
You need more than the All-22, you also need to know the design and intentions of the play that was called. You can't necessarily tell from the All-22 if someone ran the wrong route or missed an assignment or how Jones was instructed to go through his progression. You think you know, but you don't know... - ( New Window )
Yeah well that's why I wrote ETC. Nobody on this site has a clue if he was heroic or hot garbage last night.
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The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.
Do we?
Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.
As long as he is the starting QB, Daboll will offer up praise. He obviously shouldn't do the opposite and staying silent isn't really an option either. So...
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and Talkin' Giants said DJ wasn't the problem.
(At least in their instant reaction episodes)
I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones.
We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players.
And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine).
We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent.
Nobody said he was the problem. But just because he wasn’t last night doesn’t mean he isn’t one the problems.
Duggan said it best on his live chat today. I'm paraphrasing here: DJ gets an A for last night, but overall he's often been part of the offensive issues. How many mulligans does he get?
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The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.
Except that Daboll/Kafka/Schoen had not had the chance to work with him at the time his option would have needed to be excercised...and when I say work with him, I mean in-season.
I have no idea if they are going to re-sign him. I do know that Daboll praised his progress last night and his decision making with the ball 2 weeks in a row (unless we're going to go down the conspiracy road that he is intentionally lying to us).
The rule of "they tell you what they think of the player by excercising the 5th year option" seems really to only apply to those that have completely broken out and/or have the same management team in place that drafted them.
This is a 17 week final exam for Jones, we just completed week 3. The evaluation continues until further notice.
At this point in his career, shouldn’t Jones be beyond showing “progress”.
This isn't a binary "black or white" scenario where you either love or hate the QB. The Jones haters want to hang their hat on that decision, but it's a bogus point (especially given Jones's injury history). Jones has this year to prove himself to management. That's been the message we've gotten from Schoen and Daboll and there's no reason to believe (other than your own prejudices and insecurities) that they have been anything but honest in that regard.
If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...
Can you imagine Brady behind that line or how about Rodgers throwing to those receivers?
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The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.
Do we?
Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.
They love you until they cut you, or let your contract expire, in this case.
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The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.
You can't compare what the 5th year option costs for a QB drafted in the top ten vs a TE drafted in the 11 to 32 slots. Also, the consequences of the Browns and Jets picking up the options on Mayfield and Darnold (along with the recent jump in QB salaries) surely impacted the thinking around the league when it comes to the importance of a vote of confidence vs the reality of guaranteeing a $20M+ salary for an as yet unproven commodity.
This isn't a binary "black or white" scenario where you either love or hate the QB. The Jones haters want to hang their hat on that decision, but it's a bogus point (especially given Jones's injury history). Jones has this year to prove himself to management. That's been the message we've gotten from Schoen and Daboll and there's no reason to believe (other than your own prejudices and insecurities) that they have been anything but honest in that regard.
Again with the “Jones hater” label. I want to see the Giants win and I’m worried they will double down on a QB who needs everything perfect to succeed.
Are you a “Coughlin hater”? I recall you always being critical of him while propping up Jim Fassel and Reese/Gettleman. See, the labels are ridiculous.
If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...
Again with the “Jones hater” label. I want to see the Giants win and I’m worried they will double down on a QB who needs everything perfect to succeed.
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is a bogus point?
If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...
How about the fact that he's the starting fucking QB? How about the fact that the only competition they brought in was a 33-year old obvious backup and passed on every single QB in the draft (and for some it was multiple times)? Apparently the message is only honest if it agrees with the narrative you've created in your head.
It's called rebuilding with little to no cap room while Jones is already paid for. And drafting without panicking to a weak 2022 QB class.
Man, what has happened to your posting on here?
Group A: Jones has not been given a fair shot because of 4 different OC’s and 3 different HC’s. The OL has limited what he can do. When he has time and weapons, he can be very good. The example here would be the game in New Orleans last year.
Group B: Jones is not good enough to elevate a team on his own like the elite QB’s. He does not produce enough with points/TD’s. He plays the game slow and turns the ball over too much.
I don’t think opinions will change. At 2-1, we’ll see how the rest of the season goes.
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In comment 15835765 Jimmy Googs said:
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is a bogus point?
If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...
How about the fact that he's the starting fucking QB? How about the fact that the only competition they brought in was a 33-year old obvious backup and passed on every single QB in the draft (and for some it was multiple times)? Apparently the message is only honest if it agrees with the narrative you've created in your head.
It's called rebuilding with little to no cap room while Jones is already paid for. And drafting without panicking to a weak 2022 QB class.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
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everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.
I don't see it the same Bill. Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel Jones just enough rope to hang himself in 2022 so they didn't have to shoot him themselves.
Passing on that option basically started the clock on his exit out of NY...
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everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
The Browns and Jets picked up the options on Mayfield and Darnold and changed their minds about them one year later. The Rams and Niners went to Super Bowls with Goff and Garapallo, gave them tens of millions in guaranteed money, and then changed their minds about them. But according to you, Schoen is so sure of his ability to judge talent from a distance that not picking up Jones's 5th year option can only mean that he has conclusively decided that Jones is not in the team's 2023 plans.
Um there's only one problem with this... the Jets DID NOT pick up Darnold's option; the Panthers did.
Also, the Browns? I hope this new coach / GM are not modeling themselves after the Browns QBing draft and trade choices.
The Browns are a team who could have had Russ Wilson when he was in his late 20s for their 1st round pick. (The seahawks offered Wilson in trade for their first round pick/ They really liked Josh Allen). Only the Browns turned them down and then use their #1 pick to draft a Baker Mayfield/
Three games and every game has looked similar offensively.
Game 1: 21 pts, 19 1Ds, 394 YDs
Game 2: 19 pts, 16 1Ds, 265 YDs
Game 3: 16 pts, 22 1Ds, 336 YDs
If Gano doesn't get that field goal blocked, the offensive output last night is basically the output of the first two games.
The Giants are probably lucky they won those first two games, given how bad the offense is.
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everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument.
A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...
The Browns and Jets picked up the options on Mayfield and Darnold and changed their minds about them one year later. The Rams and Niners went to Super Bowls with Goff and Garapallo, gave them tens of millions in guaranteed money, and then changed their minds about them. But according to you, Schoen is so sure of his ability to judge talent from a distance that not picking up Jones's 5th year option can only mean that he has conclusively decided that Jones is not in the team's 2023 plans.
Not sure I place much weight on the decisions those different teams/GMs made, under different scenarios, with different QBs, having anything to do with Jones and the Giants option.
And I am not sure of Schoen's ability to judge talent as of yet. But I am sure that had he perceived a sufficient level of talent in Jones, then he would have exercised the option on a player at the most important position on the field...
Group A: Jones has not been given a fair shot because of 4 different OC’s and 3 different HC’s. The OL has limited what he can do. When he has time and weapons, he can be very good. The example here would be the game in New Orleans last year.
Group B: Jones is not good enough to elevate a team on his own like the elite QB’s. He does not produce enough with points/TD’s. He plays the game slow and turns the ball over too much.
I don’t think opinions will change. At 2-1, we’ll see how the rest of the season goes.
Nailed it
JS made the only sensible decision. Let it play out. Evaluate and make a decision at years end. Giants win 4 games and a QB they like falls into their lap you don't want to have to deal with Jones. He performs way above expectations you franchise him or have the leverage in contract extensions.
Don't over think things. This one was pretty easy to see.
I suspect the big thing they are evaluating is who plays QB in 2023 in case they can't get someone they like in the draft. Expectations for BD will be to win. You only get so much time. Reach for a draft pick or go with someone that can help with that effort.
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I’m just as guilty for it too. But, I think it boils down to two things:
Group A: Jones has not been given a fair shot because of 4 different OC’s and 3 different HC’s. The OL has limited what he can do. When he has time and weapons, he can be very good. The example here would be the game in New Orleans last year.
Group B: Jones is not good enough to elevate a team on his own like the elite QB’s. He does not produce enough with points/TD’s. He plays the game slow and turns the ball over too much.
I don’t think opinions will change. At 2-1, we’ll see how the rest of the season goes.
Nailed it
Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Wentz
Murray.
Then let's run out the receivers we had last night and see what they can do.
Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Wentz
Murray.
Then let's run out the receivers we had last night and see what they can do.
Let's sign DJ to a second contract and guarantee we have:
Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Wentz
I don't recall the injury/prognosis was ever clarified, HIPAA considerations not withstanding. That no one ever said, "We expect DJ to make a full recovery" by the time the option had to be exercised seems relevant.
I don't recall the injury/prognosis was ever clarified, HIPAA considerations not withstanding. That no one ever said, "We expect DJ to make a full recovery" by the time the option had to be exercised seems relevant.
(2) he's been actively scouting college QBs, and
(3) The Tyrod contract being a 2-year deal signifies to me that they look at Tyrod as a bridge QB next year to at least partially redshirt a rookie QB.
All signs point to DJ being gone after this season. That said, DJ has the power to change the narrative, but he must do it definitively, it can't just be, "he did ok."
I don't recall the injury/prognosis was ever clarified, HIPAA considerations not withstanding. That no one ever said, "We expect DJ to make a full recovery" by the time the option had to be exercised seems relevant.
Daboll said Jones was fully healed at the NFL’s annual spring meetings in March, and that he would be doing full workouts well in advance of the deadline on the option.
So...
All signs point to DJ being gone after this season. That said, DJ has the power to change the narrative, but he must do it definitively, it can't just be, "he did ok."
Not if the Giants determine that Jones "ok," gives the Giants a better chance to win rather than Taylor.
JS made the only sensible decision. Let it play out. Evaluate and make a decision at years end. Giants win 4 games and a QB they like falls into their lap you don't want to have to deal with Jones. He performs way above expectations you franchise him or have the leverage in contract extensions.
Don't over think things. This one was pretty easy to see.
I suspect the big thing they are evaluating is who plays QB in 2023 in case they can't get someone they like in the draft. Expectations for BD will be to win. You only get so much time. Reach for a draft pick or go with someone that can help with that effort.
+1
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All signs point to DJ being gone after this season. That said, DJ has the power to change the narrative, but he must do it definitively, it can't just be, "he did ok."
Not if the Giants determine that Jones "ok," gives the Giants a better chance to win rather than Taylor.
That will not happen. That would require at least a tag if not extension. For that money, 'ok' isn't going to earn that, because they need to start the clock on the rebuild with a QB of their choosing. Can't afford to kick the can down the road.
Tiffany is the next Giants QB - ( New Window )
And i keep seeing this notion that no qb would of been able to win in the same situation as monday night, thats BS..
If Dallas brought the pressure and played up like they were doing against, Brady, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes they would of beat Dallas..
Probably a few others..Jones did a great job last night and i was impressed by how he performed but lets not overreact they still only scored 1 TD
And i keep seeing this notion that no qb would of been able to win in the same situation as monday night, thats BS..
If Dallas brought the pressure and played up like they were doing against, Brady, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes they would of beat Dallas..
Probably a few others..Jones did a great job last night and i was impressed by how he performed but lets not overreact they still only scored 1 TD
Do you not take into account the drops in key moments? The INT where the receiver fell down? The fact that our #1 pick last year didnt play, our #2 pick this year didnt play, our way overpaid FA WR souldnt have played and our best WR had a bad drop and tore his ACL while on a slow jog down the field. Richie James is now our leading WR and has 52 career receptions since 2018. Go read Sy's write up on the WRs.
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you can win WITH him but you wont win BECAUSE of him, thats the reality of Daniel Jones..
And i keep seeing this notion that no qb would of been able to win in the same situation as monday night, thats BS..
If Dallas brought the pressure and played up like they were doing against, Brady, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes they would of beat Dallas..
Probably a few others..Jones did a great job last night and i was impressed by how he performed but lets not overreact they still only scored 1 TD
Do you not take into account the drops in key moments? The INT where the receiver fell down? The fact that our #1 pick last year didnt play, our #2 pick this year didnt play, our way overpaid FA WR souldnt have played and our best WR had a bad drop and tore his ACL while on a slow jog down the field. Richie James is now our leading WR and has 52 career receptions since 2018. Go read Sy's write up on the WRs.
yes i do, This idea a frachise QB coukdnt win in that scenario really isnt true..
First off the Cowboys scheme it different, they hsd no fear of Jones beating them deep, as soon as the Giants were in a passing down the cowboys brought the heat with no fear, part of that is the wrs but the other is Jones, teams dont fear him..
You dont blitz guys like rodgers or mahomes or Brady or any top QBs because they will pick you apart regardless of the WR talent..
I domt blame Jones for drops but the game is 100% different if Jones is a franchise QB
Can you live with a team whose maximum win total each season caps out around 9? I think I couldn't.
Some of the better plays by Daniel Jones last night (B Skinner) - ( New Window )
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Worth mentioning, if memory serves - Eli was very much trashed, undermined, with 'not the guy'-sentiments for a long time with way more stability of regime, weaponry, O-line, etc. Even when he performed, people would still not put him in that highest of high categories. Can you live with Jones being a top 10-14 QB? I think I could.
Can you live with a team whose maximum win total each season caps out around 9? I think I couldn't.
Giants won their past 2 SB's with 9 win teams.
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In comment 15836604 Coopcomic said:
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Worth mentioning, if memory serves - Eli was very much trashed, undermined, with 'not the guy'-sentiments for a long time with way more stability of regime, weaponry, O-line, etc. Even when he performed, people would still not put him in that highest of high categories. Can you live with Jones being a top 10-14 QB? I think I could.
Can you live with a team whose maximum win total each season caps out around 9? I think I couldn't.
Giants won their past 2 SB's with 9 win teams.
Good lord. The board is just loaded with good thoughts today...
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK HAS DANIEL JONES DONE ANYWHERE THAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE HIS IS LIKE THAT?
Gimme a break.
The notion the Giants should commit good money on a short agreement to Jones, because "who else?" is so strange.