The Daniel Jones Actual Truth Thread

Its critical that the O line gel as the year goes on so a proper evaluation can be made. He desperately needs Toney to get out there and help.

I’m comfortable saying I’d go to war with Jones.

He played outstanding, putting the offense on his shoulders, and I’m convinced that he is going to take a team deep into the playoffs.

Which team? Who knows.

Get the parade floats and Canyon of Heroes ready!

Jones was not the issue last night. He played moderately well. There were other personnel issues: WRs, interior OL, interior LBs.

Jones is also not the long-term solution at QB.

Both things can be true.

Schematically, they run a good system on both sides of the ball. I like the approach. When Schoen can get some better players, they'll improve. They're limited with the mess that Gettleman left behind.

The only way to make an intelligent assessment is by watching the all 22. How many reads didn't he make, or open receivers he didn't see etcetera.

Last night was a solid performance where nobody else on offense outside of Thomas and Saqoun decided to contribute

.

.

Not the reason we lost. The offense is so devoid of talent. God forbid Saquon goes down...

In comment 15835658 give66 said:

Quote:

The only way to make an intelligent assessment is by watching the all 22. How many reads didn't he make, or open receivers he didn't see etcetera.

You need more than the All-22, you also need to know the design and intentions of the play that was called. You can't necessarily tell from the All-22 if someone ran the wrong route or missed an assignment or how Jones was instructed to go through his progression.
You think you know, but you don't know... - ( New Window )

and Talkin' Giants said DJ wasn't the problem.
(At least in their instant reaction episodes)

I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones.

We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players.
And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine).

We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent.

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

In comment 15835697 Sean said:

Quote:

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

Except that Daboll/Kafka/Schoen had not had the chance to work with him at the time his option would have needed to be excercised...and when I say work with him, I mean in-season.
I have no idea if they are going to re-sign him. I do know that Daboll praised his progress last night and his decision making with the ball 2 weeks in a row (unless we're going to go down the conspiracy road that he is intentionally lying to us).
The rule of "they tell you what they think of the player by excercising the 5th year option" seems really to only apply to those that have completely broken out and/or have the same management team in place that drafted them.
This is a 17 week final exam for Jones, we just completed week 3. The evaluation continues until further notice.

are lighting it up. Not. Herbert lighting it up on Sunday. Not.

Someday the QB gurus may figure it out. Not.

QB play is dependent on a lot of factors. Jones probably is not the long term answer but a alternative will not be as easy as some think.

That is what this year is about. Seeing what Jones potential is versus potential alternative solutions and if they are practical.

Build the best possible team regardless.

In comment 15835697 Sean said:

Quote:

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

That was Dave Gettleman for one. Two, it was $6M. Jones' 5th year option was around $22-23M. They could have liked what they saw on tape and it still wouldn't make sense for a new regime to lock themselves into that when guys like Mariota and Trubisky are getting $7-9M/year on the open market.

Not that hard to have a good idea of what Schoen/Daboll think of Jones based on their actions to date and how the offense is being run...

Nobody is going to want him at $20 mill. He will most likely get a backup job. The QB draft isn't really all that great anyways. We have Jones or Tyrod T. Jones could get a contract as a starter and not try and test his value on the market which doesn't look good on paper or he could start. Unless a decent vet shows up at our doorstep we don't have the money(even with Golliday gone)to throw around. QB position, as we saw last night, is not wonderful but if he has nobody to protect him and nobody to throw to, well that eliminates his abilities. I think the only QB that would do well here is maybe Mahomes, who goes street ball when it all falls apart

In comment 15835697 Sean said:

Quote:

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

Do we?

Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.

In comment 15835697 Sean said:

Quote:

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

Come now. Picking up a TE's contract is a world away from the commitment for a QB these days. Its not the same discussion.

In comment 15835696 ATL_Giants said:

Quote:

and Talkin' Giants said DJ wasn't the problem. (At least in their instant reaction episodes) I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones. We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players. And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine). We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent.

Nobody said he was the problem. But just because he wasn’t last night doesn’t mean he isn’t one the problems.

In comment 15835686 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 15835658 give66 said: Quote: The only way to make an intelligent assessment is by watching the all 22. How many reads didn't he make, or open receivers he didn't see etcetera. You need more than the All-22, you also need to know the design and intentions of the play that was called. You can't necessarily tell from the All-22 if someone ran the wrong route or missed an assignment or how Jones was instructed to go through his progression. You think you know, but you don't know... - ( New Window )

Yeah well that's why I wrote ETC. Nobody on this site has a clue if he was heroic or hot garbage last night.

In comment 15835714 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

In comment 15835697 Sean said: Quote: The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up. Do we? Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.

As long as he is the starting QB, Daboll will offer up praise. He obviously shouldn't do the opposite and staying silent isn't really an option either. So...

In comment 15835722 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 15835696 ATL_Giants said: Quote: and Talkin' Giants said DJ wasn't the problem. (At least in their instant reaction episodes) I like to hear some analysis before firing Jones. We could've had that game, but we couldn't match up against a legit pass rush. Our WR's are not starter caliber players. And our defense is feast or famine(mostly famine). We have a coach, a left tackle and a RB. Everywhere else needs more talent. Nobody said he was the problem. But just because he wasn’t last night doesn’t mean he isn’t one the problems.

Duggan said it best on his live chat today. I'm paraphrasing here: DJ gets an A for last night, but overall he's often been part of the offensive issues. How many mulligans does he get?

You can debate just how good or bad he is all you want, but on this team, he is not the problem.

In comment 15835706 Tom in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 15835697 Sean said: Quote: The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up. Except that Daboll/Kafka/Schoen had not had the chance to work with him at the time his option would have needed to be excercised...and when I say work with him, I mean in-season. I have no idea if they are going to re-sign him. I do know that Daboll praised his progress last night and his decision making with the ball 2 weeks in a row (unless we're going to go down the conspiracy road that he is intentionally lying to us). The rule of "they tell you what they think of the player by excercising the 5th year option" seems really to only apply to those that have completely broken out and/or have the same management team in place that drafted them. This is a 17 week final exam for Jones, we just completed week 3. The evaluation continues until further notice.

At this point in his career, shouldn’t Jones be beyond showing “progress”.

I think Jones plays well Sunday and we get to 3-1. That's just about all you could have hoped for with the early schedule and roster we have.

In comment 15835697 Sean said:

Quote:

The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up.

You can't compare what the 5th year option costs for a QB drafted in the top ten vs a TE drafted in the 11 to 32 slots. Also, the consequences of the Browns and Jets picking up the options on Mayfield and Darnold (along with the recent jump in QB salaries) surely impacted the thinking around the league when it comes to the importance of a vote of confidence vs the reality of guaranteeing a $20M+ salary for an as yet unproven commodity.

This isn't a binary "black or white" scenario where you either love or hate the QB. The Jones haters want to hang their hat on that decision, but it's a bogus point (especially given Jones's injury history). Jones has this year to prove himself to management. That's been the message we've gotten from Schoen and Daboll and there's no reason to believe (other than your own prejudices and insecurities) that they have been anything but honest in that regard.

is a bogus point?

If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...

No QB in the league would have won that game playing for the Giants.

Can you imagine Brady behind that line or how about Rodgers throwing to those receivers?

That is a actual truth. Unless there is an injury or a monumental change in Jones' performance, one way or the other, he will have this year to show what he's got. Anyone who doesn't see that is deluding himself, IMO. That's why these constant critical threads are such a useless waste of time. Unless you just need to vent for your own mental health.

In comment 15835714 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

In comment 15835697 Sean said: Quote: The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up. Do we? Daboll has praised Jones several times in the last 2 weeks. I don't think we know what they think.

They love you until they cut you, or let your contract expire, in this case.

Jones is not performing up to par, and it's not looking much better in 2022. Sorry, Milton, he gone.

In comment 15835759 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 15835697 Sean said: Quote: The 5th year option was not picked up, that is a huge indicator. 5th year options are almost always exercised when the team likes that player. Look at Evan Engram for example, even his was picked up. You can't compare what the 5th year option costs for a QB drafted in the top ten vs a TE drafted in the 11 to 32 slots. Also, the consequences of the Browns and Jets picking up the options on Mayfield and Darnold (along with the recent jump in QB salaries) surely impacted the thinking around the league when it comes to the importance of a vote of confidence vs the reality of guaranteeing a $20M+ salary for an as yet unproven commodity. This isn't a binary "black or white" scenario where you either love or hate the QB. The Jones haters want to hang their hat on that decision, but it's a bogus point (especially given Jones's injury history). Jones has this year to prove himself to management. That's been the message we've gotten from Schoen and Daboll and there's no reason to believe (other than your own prejudices and insecurities) that they have been anything but honest in that regard.

Again with the “Jones hater” label. I want to see the Giants win and I’m worried they will double down on a QB who needs everything perfect to succeed.

Are you a “Coughlin hater”? I recall you always being critical of him while propping up Jim Fassel and Reese/Gettleman. See, the labels are ridiculous.

In comment 15835765 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

is a bogus point? If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it...

How about the fact that he's the starting fucking QB? How about the fact that the only competition they brought in was a 33-year old obvious backup and passed on every single QB in the draft (and for some it was multiple times)? Apparently the message is only honest if it agrees with the narrative you've created in your head.

In comment 15835783 Sean said:

Quote:

Again with the “Jones hater” label. I want to see the Giants win and I’m worried they will double down on a QB who needs everything perfect to succeed.

You're right, poor choice of words on my part. I apologize.

Jones looked better than in past games, but this WHOLE year is for evaluation. Two average to below average performances, one good performance. Less about the outcome, more about the process. Daboll spoke about consistency and stringing good performances together. Consistency plays a large role in a starting caliber QB. Jones has never been that before, but I am eager to see how the rest of the season goes. Hopefully we have a difficult decision at the end of the season.

In comment 15835794 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 15835765 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: is a bogus point? If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it... How about the fact that he's the starting fucking QB? How about the fact that the only competition they brought in was a 33-year old obvious backup and passed on every single QB in the draft (and for some it was multiple times)? Apparently the message is only honest if it agrees with the narrative you've created in your head.

It's called rebuilding with little to no cap room while Jones is already paid for. And drafting without panicking to a weak 2022 QB class.

Man, what has happened to your posting on here?

in the pocket is really weak. He reacts so slowly or not at all to oncoming defenders. This caps his upside, and for me, is a "move on" situation. It's an important box to check and it seems he is never gonna check it.

What is Daboll supposed to tell the press? You think he's going to trash him to the press? Come on.

I’m just as guilty for it too. But, I think it boils down to two things:

Group A: Jones has not been given a fair shot because of 4 different OC’s and 3 different HC’s. The OL has limited what he can do. When he has time and weapons, he can be very good. The example here would be the game in New Orleans last year.

Group B: Jones is not good enough to elevate a team on his own like the elite QB’s. He does not produce enough with points/TD’s. He plays the game slow and turns the ball over too much.

I don’t think opinions will change. At 2-1, we’ll see how the rest of the season goes.

Sean, for every NOLA game from last year, there's two Rams games from last year.

In comment 15835811 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15835794 Milton said: Quote: In comment 15835765 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: is a bogus point? If you are truly looking for an honest message from them, nothing else beats it... How about the fact that he's the starting fucking QB? How about the fact that the only competition they brought in was a 33-year old obvious backup and passed on every single QB in the draft (and for some it was multiple times)? Apparently the message is only honest if it agrees with the narrative you've created in your head. It's called rebuilding with little to no cap room while Jones is already paid for. And drafting without panicking to a weak 2022 QB class.

But that's my point. Regardless of your opinion, there is a narrative you can come up with to support it that is perfectly consistent with everything that Schoen and Daboll have done. There is no smoking gun for either side to point to that can't be refute by a perfectly reasonable argument. That's why I say none of us know what they're thinking. For the most part we just assume they see it exactly as we do and we translate every decision they make through that filter.

everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument.

A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...

The two things that stick out to me: 1) declining his 5th year option & 2) neither Schoen or Daboll were here when he was drafted & thus should presumably have no stake in his long term future.

In comment 15835848 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument. A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...

Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.

In comment 15835848 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument. A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...

Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.

In comment 15835848 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument. A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option...

The Browns and Jets picked up the options on Mayfield and Darnold and changed their minds about them one year later. The Rams and Niners went to Super Bowls with Goff and Garapallo, gave them tens of millions in guaranteed money, and then changed their minds about them. But according to you, Schoen is so sure of his ability to judge talent from a distance that not picking up Jones's 5th year option can only mean that he has conclusively decided that Jones is not in the team's 2023 plans.

In comment 15835856 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

In comment 15835848 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument. A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option... Passing on the 5th year option only said that they hadn't seen enough from him from afar to extend him. But Jones had never played for Schoen/Daboll at that point. I believe Jones started this year with a clean slate and will be given every opportunity to prove that he is the answer. Or not.

I don't see it the same Bill. Schoen/Daboll are giving Daniel Jones just enough rope to hang himself in 2022 so they didn't have to shoot him themselves.

Passing on that option basically started the clock on his exit out of NY...

I don't believe-for one second-DJ started with a blank slate from Schoen & Daboll.

In comment 15835867 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 15835848 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: everything Schoen/Daboll are thinking with regards to Jones, that doesn't make it a strong argument. A strong argument is using the logic related to passing on the 5th year option... The Browns and Jets picked up the options on Mayfield and Darnold and changed their minds about them one year later. The Rams and Niners went to Super Bowls with Goff and Garapallo, gave them tens of millions in guaranteed money, and then changed their minds about them. But according to you, Schoen is so sure of his ability to judge talent from a distance that not picking up Jones's 5th year option can only mean that he has conclusively decided that Jones is not in the team's 2023 plans.

Um there's only one problem with this... the Jets DID NOT pick up Darnold's option; the Panthers did.

Also, the Browns? I hope this new coach / GM are not modeling themselves after the Browns QBing draft and trade choices.

The Browns are a team who could have had Russ Wilson when he was in his late 20s for their 1st round pick. (The seahawks offered Wilson in trade for their first round pick/ They really liked Josh Allen). Only the Browns turned them down and then use their #1 pick to draft a Baker Mayfield/