Put aside which camp you are on regarding Daniel Jones. This is the way I am thinking about his situation right now:
1) Giants are most likely going to draft in the 12-20 range. I base this on their schedule this year being easier than last and it seems like we have a competent HC.
2) With that draft range, we are out of the picture for any of the elite QB's in the draft. (I do not consider Levis an elite QB in next years draft).
3) Free Agency does not have many QB's to choose from next year. The best, by far, is Lamar. I have a hard time believing the Ravens will let him go without some sort of tag.
Now the Ravens have let star players go in the past (Ed Reed) so this is not out of the ordinary, but none of these star Ravens players have ever been the QB of the team.
4) Why would any FA come to us unless this OL improves? As well, who is he throwing to? We have no one to advertise a QB to.
My most likely scenario is that Jones will sign a 2-3 year contract, but he will have his suitors as well.
The main concern for me is that all the above are true, the Giants try to sign him and he signs elsewhere. At the end of the day, a team might look at him and say that he has not had a good OL, WR or steady coaching in his 4 years here, he can make the throws so why not chance a signing.
I want to ask all of you, if you do not want Jones, how do you look to address the QB position? Is my take wrong?
And who will be in the list of top prospects at QB and where they will be picked has a lot of time to come into focus.
There also will be many options available to Schoen to navigate the draft to increase his chances in drafting one.
Let's wait and see how it plays out :-)
I am firmly in the keep DJ short term camp and try to firm up the other myriad holes left by Gettlfucker
I also hope JS/BD adjust their team building philosophy and hopefully being in the NFCE for a year they see things are a bit different here than in Buffalo and the state of that division at the time. This shift allows more flexibility in selecting a QB imv.
and end with:
"We should sign Daniel Jones to a 3 year contract."
That's not logical. It's fucking bananas. You want to commit 3 more years to a failed QB. He sucks. He hasn't ever achieved the basic stat line of a star QB. Teams move on from guys like that. We have to start looking for a QB that has elite ability.
You're totally right. He's too good for us.
add my 2 cents to this thought
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
I don't think BD will have that luxury. Never seen a HC in this franchise have that type of time to get things going.
Taylor is the backup and possible starter for a few games in 2023 if they draft a QB next offseason. If that is not the plan then they will need a better solution imv which is part of the evaluation of Jones this year.
I am firmly in the keep DJ short term camp and try to firm up the other myriad holes left by Gettlfucker
Not sure we forget, we’re living through it
In comment 15837451 Mike from Ohio said:
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Jones is incapable of feeding a playmaker. In 4 years he has failed to make a meaningful connection with any of his WRs. If he had AJ Brown, he would continue to check down, Brown would get upset, and fans would blame Brown.
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Posters seem to forget that teams draft lots of different players in Rd 1, not just QBs.
Some morons even pick running backs :-)
Hold on a second. Last year was Hurts' first year as a starter in the NFL. So in year one he "just an average guy" but here we are in year 4 with Jones and arguing "we don't really know if he is any good?"
Jalen Hurts is already a better player than Jones. He has more talent and he has developed faster. A good coaching staff can find a good QB outside the top-5 of the draft. It is starting to happen almost every year as the similarities between the college game and the NFL game lessen.
And guess what? Next year we can also draft a WR and/or sign one or two in free agency. That option was not open to the Giants this year because they signed a free agent and paid him more than he was worth.
This is not some sort of 5-6 year rebuild as someone laughably suggested above. It isn't 1985 anymore.
I have also seen some great throws that shows he does have arm strength..
I could see the Giants giving him a 2 or 3 year deal, incentive laden while still looking to see if they find a franchise QB...Jones is capable to win with jist not sure if you win because of him..
Giants get him a number 1 this offseason and improve the rest of the team
I don't think BD will have that luxury. Never seen a HC in this franchise have that type of time to get things going.
Taylor is the backup and possible starter for a few games in 2023 if they draft a QB next offseason. If that is not the plan then they will need a better solution imv which is part of the evaluation of Jones this year.
Exactly. I agree. But the premise here was that we are getting a new “franchise” QB next year or if we get a new QB he will be a 2nd tier type. Tough spot.
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I don't think BD will have that luxury. Never seen a HC in this franchise have that type of time to get things going.
Taylor is the backup and possible starter for a few games in 2023 if they draft a QB next offseason. If that is not the plan then they will need a better solution imv which is part of the evaluation of Jones this year.
Exactly. I agree. But the premise here was that we are getting a new “franchise” QB next year or if we get a new QB he will be a 2nd tier type. Tough spot.
aren’t getting
He hasn't taken a big leap, and he's basically the same player he has been the first 3 years (you can argue he is better in the margins, but that's about it.) Nothing over these first 3 games will change the evaluation from rejecting a 1 year, cost controlled year, to giving him a multi year commitment
The Texans traded up for Watson.
The Bills traded up for Allen.
The Niners traded to for Lance.
The Bears traded up for Fields.
Which teams who are in the market for a QB just sit on their hands and wait? I’d urge a lot here to get comfortable with the fact that the 2024 first round pick could likely be moved to trade up for QB.
Hurts also has a great OL and run game behind him not to mention a top TE. but yeah Dan suxx
Hurts also has a great OL and run game behind him not to mention a top TE. but yeah Dan suxx
Trying something new is not a guarantee of winning. But it gives you a chance.
With Jones there is no chance. And that's why teams never ever commit to keeping QBs as bad a Jones.
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And Philadelphia, and they have brought in Smith and brown over the last two years. All of a sudden Hurts has gone from an average QB to one that’s playing lights out this year so far. I begin to question “Who have the Giants Surrounded Daniel Jones With”? That’s where I get lost in the situation
Hold on a second. Last year was Hurts' first year as a starter in the NFL. So in year one he "just an average guy" but here we are in year 4 with Jones and arguing "we don't really know if he is any good?"
Jalen Hurts is already a better player than Jones. He has more talent and he has developed faster. A good coaching staff can find a good QB outside the top-5 of the draft. It is starting to happen almost every year as the similarities between the college game and the NFL game lessen.
And guess what? Next year we can also draft a WR and/or sign one or two in free agency. That option was not open to the Giants this year because they signed a free agent and paid him more than he was worth.
This is not some sort of 5-6 year rebuild as someone laughably suggested above. It isn't 1985 anymore.
All of this
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Great, now name every QB taken 6 or later that didnt become a franchise QB? It will be a very long list
A plan of "I am sure they can find someone" isnt a plan
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
We’re moving on from Jones.
Book it
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that unless you are in the top-5 you can't get a franchise QB. This continues despite the fact the Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, and Lamar Jackson were all taken 6 or later (and aside from Herbert and Allen, all taken 10 or later).
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Great, now name every QB taken 6 or later that didnt become a franchise QB? It will be a very long list
A plan of "I am sure they can find someone" isnt a plan
Now name every QB taken in the top 5 that didn't become a franchise QB. How about Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky and Goff just to name some from the last few years?
Bad drafting is bad drafting. The point is that a top-5 pick is no guarantee of getting a franchise QB, nor is picking outside the top-5 a guarantee of missing on one.
Your posts are all emotion and zero logic.
For how many people rave over his rookie season, the majority of those stats came against the likes of an awful Bucs defense, the Jets & Washington.
The best win of the Giants season in 2020 was with Colt McCoy.
Jones led the Giants to a 4-7 record before getting hurt in 2021 in what was a “prove it” year.
It drives me nuts, but I’m the “Jones hater”. I just can’t understand the logic of having such low standards at QB. And wanting to run it back with Jones! I don’t get it.
What will the drop off be? There has been and is no production. Jones is an awful red zone QB, this team never scores TD’s in the red zone.
And Hurts was producing even when he was considered “average”. This supposedly loaded Eagles roster everyone loves talking about which went 4-11-1 in 2020 and then made the playoffs in 2021 when Hurts took over.
Again, I get criticized for being a “hater” but I honestly think we have bigger Daniel Jones fans than Giant fans on BBI. Raise your standards.
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
+1 - we all know the DJ detractor club - they are easy to spot and ignore.
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that unless you are in the top-5 you can't get a franchise QB. This continues despite the fact the Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, and Lamar Jackson were all taken 6 or later (and aside from Herbert and Allen, all taken 10 or later).
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Great, now name every QB taken 6 or later that didnt become a franchise QB? It will be a very long list
A plan of "I am sure they can find someone" isnt a plan
And not trying to get better at the QB is only a losing plan.
This thread title asks for logic, so please just read if you don't qualify...
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that unless you are in the top-5 you can't get a franchise QB. This continues despite the fact the Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, and Lamar Jackson were all taken 6 or later (and aside from Herbert and Allen, all taken 10 or later).
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Great, now name every QB taken 6 or later that didnt become a franchise QB? It will be a very long list
A plan of "I am sure they can find someone" isnt a plan
List gets even longer if you add 1 - 6 too
Mayfield, Darnold, Trubisky, Goff, Wentz, Winston, Mariota, Bortles
BTW I don't care if we keep Jones or not whatever gets us back to Superbowl wins
Besides the one year with Wentz, the Eagles have not paid for a QB since Bradford in 2015. That is how they are able to build a roster. Gettleman's biggest crime was not missing on Jones as much as failing to build around him with that excecss capital.
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Monday. He was the Giants best player on the field. He elevated a bunch of JV s, Sy s words not mine, to a fourth quarter league.
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
+1 - we all know the DJ detractor club - they are easy to spot and ignore.
Jones played well on Monday. Pretty much everyone has said that. He has also played good games over his career. The point is that they are few and far between. He is consistently inconsistent game to game. Yes his supporting cast sucks. Nobody said it doesn't or that doesn't matter. But if you say you can't evaluate a player because the folks around him suck, will you explain why that does not apply to Kenny Golladay?
It can be true that Jones played well Monday, occasionally plays good games, and that he is not an NFL-level starting QB. Everyone who believes that doesn't hate Daniel Jones personally.
You have to fix the o line and receivers which will take two years.
So it really doesn't matter who the QB is for the next two years.
Jones won't physically survive the next two years here. He should move on for his own health and I think he will. I don't think he will want to sign with the Giants and the Giants aren't going to franchise him.
Jones may not be the solution but he is not the problem. Anyone who thinks changing the QB will fix our offense is out to lunch.
Eli could not be successful because our o line stunk. We wasted his final years.
Failing to build the o line has been an epic disaster. might as well trade Barkley now he will be shot by the time our line is fixed. Let him enjoy success elsewhere. He worked hard to get back and is running hard.
Draft, free agent, TT, doesn't matter. Until we fix the o line and get receivers it doesn't matter who the QB is. And starting a rookie behind this offense will just ruin him.
Fix the o line. Get receivers. And then go get your QB whether through the draft or a FA.
I like Jones. But he is best served by leaving. And the Giants are best served by fixing the o line, getting receivers, and then getting their QB.
We are at least 2-3 years away from being a good team. The Mara's screwed this team up with 10 years of complete and utter incompetence. Disgraceful.
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
The QB is supposed to be the best player on the field. So Jones looked to you like the best player on a bad team. So what? He continued to hold the ball too long, stand line a statue in the pocket trying to figure out what was going on, then run around frantically, and we only scored 16 points. We don't need him to be the best player on the Giants, we beed him to be the 10th best player at his position. And other than a few diehards on here, everybody knows he's not.
This is absolutely ridiculous, and puts all of your comments about Jones into stark perspective.
Ive looked at them, I’ll wait.
I think because he checks so many boxes for them (not you obviously), they will do everything possible to make it work with Jones.
You can have your opinion and wish list, but listen to the HC. He’s pretty definitive avoir what he sees and what he wants.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
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In comment 15837451 Mike from Ohio said:
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that unless you are in the top-5 you can't get a franchise QB. This continues despite the fact the Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, and Lamar Jackson were all taken 6 or later (and aside from Herbert and Allen, all taken 10 or later).
The Giants have Taylor under contract for next year if there is nobody they like in the draft or free agency. We don't need someone slightly better than Taylor at a much higher price tag.
You brought in Daboll and Kafka to develop a QB. I am sure they can find someone with the skills they need to run a system designed for that player. And if he needs to sit and learn, you already have Taylor to start.
Jones will sign some sort of prove it deal somewhere. Nobody is bringing him to do anything other than compete with someone or be a backup.
Great, now name every QB taken 6 or later that didnt become a franchise QB? It will be a very long list
A plan of "I am sure they can find someone" isnt a plan
List gets even longer if you add 1 - 6 too
Mayfield, Darnold, Trubisky, Goff, Wentz, Winston, Mariota, Bortles
BTW I don't care if we keep Jones or not whatever gets us back to Superbowl wins
Here you go, every QB taken in Rd 1 since the 2010 draft. Complete crapshoot. Out of 36, I count 22 QB's that I would want Jones over, and 2 that I'm calling a tie (Tannehil and Baker), and 12 that I'd want over Jones.
Ponder, Bradford, Tebow, Cam, Locker, Gabbert, Brandon Weeden, Ryan Tannehill, RG3, Luck, EJ Manual, Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles, Mariotta, Winston, PAxton Lynch, Wentz, Goff, Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, Jackson, Rosen, Josh Allen, Darnold, Baker, Haskins, Jones, Murray, Jordan Love, Herbert, Tua, Burrow, Lawrence
Ive looked at them, I’ll wait.
I think because he checks so many boxes for them (not you obviously), they will do everything possible to make it work with Jones.
You can have your opinion and wish list, but listen to the HC. He’s pretty definitive avoir what he sees and what he wants.
So you can't converse without a personal attack? You lose right there. I will be polite to you even though your parents brought you up to be impolite to others
You believe everything Daboll says about Jones? What, you expect him to run his mouth about the starting QB? He's trying to win games. You don't knee what BD thinks of Jones. None of us do. That's the one truth you can take from this thread. Coaches have no incentive to tell you what they really think.
I have also seen some great throws that shows he does have arm strength..
I could see the Giants giving him a 2 or 3 year deal, incentive laden while still looking to see if they find a franchise QB...Jones is capable to win with jist not sure if you win because of him..
Giants get him a number 1 this offseason and improve the rest of the team
That is fine, I guess, but when in the modern era has a starting QB resigned with the team that drafted him for less than market rate? Especially a QB that didn't have his 5th year picked up. I don't recall any. Maybe the Giants break the mold, but I doubt it. Taylor was signed for a 2nd year for a reason.
WTF do you think DJ is?
How many times do you estimate you told another poster(s) that they will "have to eat crow" because you had a better opinion? And how many times did they actually have to?
I am guessing your batting average is like 0 for a thousand...
Odd view. Most of us want to see the Giants get better and win. But I suppose rooting against other fans is fun for some as well.
Ive looked at them, I’ll wait.
I think because he checks so many boxes for them (not you obviously), they will do everything possible to make it work with Jones.
You can have your opinion and wish list, but listen to the HC. He’s pretty definitive avoir what he sees and what he wants.
this is a really lame post Dave...
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
And what happens to the Jones dead-enders when Schoen & Co decide to go in another direction? If they resign Jones, I'm fine with that, but as I've asked repeatedly on this thread - and a question no one has tried to answer - when has this happened before?
When has a starting QB, one whose 5th year was not picked up, signed for under market value with the team that drafted him? You're on the clock, Joe...[cue in Jeopardy music}.
I prefer to see how it plays out, see what Daboll and Kafka can do with him.
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
And what happens to the Jones dead-enders when Schoen & Co decide to go in another direction? If they resign Jones, I'm fine with that, but as I've asked repeatedly on this thread - and a question no one has tried to answer - when has this happened before?
When has a starting QB, one whose 5th year was not picked up, signed for under market value with the team that drafted him? You're on the clock, Joe...[cue in Jeopardy music}.
Just because it hasnt happened doesnt mean it cant and i am one who is ready to move on bit i also recognize that he is playing better each week so its possible he can come back..
There people who wanted Eli gone after his 3rd year and halfway through his 4th year and they won a superbowl..
I dont think Jones will ever be a top 10 QB bit i dont think its out of the realm of possibility that he is brought back for a yesr or 2 until they find their guy
What the two of them have to do to have success is apples and oranges.
It should also be noted that Jones is not the only one on the clock to prove himself. Sure Jones' time is almost up but Schoen and Daboll are on the clock as well. This year was about changing the culture and evaluating the roster especially Jones. It was Schoen's first task to assemble an oline capable enough to allow an evaluation to be done.
So far not so good for Joe.
I prefer to see how it plays out, see what Daboll and Kafka can do with him.
He takes the most time from snap to release. You don't think Daboll knows this? He has not made enough adjustments to cope with pressure. Watch better QBs who take shorter drops, are better at the quick hitting game, who are more decisive. We're into the 4th year and we are seeing the same Jones. Slow and indecisive.
His second biggest issue is redzone production. Not sure if this is all his fault but We don't seem to have any players healthy or on the roster that can get open in the shorter field. Golliday is supposed to be the 50/50 guy in the redzone and we see how he hasn't scored since being signed.
Those people saying this is all on Jones are wrong. Those saying Jones is the best option for 2023 might be right.
The truth about the entire situation for me is:
1. Jones is improving
2. The QB position is difficult to play and the most important position in football.
3. We will never know his true ability if he is pressured 20 to 25 times a game.
4. We will never know his true ability until we get WE/TE who can separate or win 50/50 balls.
5. You need to score points in this league. The QB is in charge of that and he needs to elevate his teammates.
Bottom line: Jones is not elite but could become a solid QB. The coaching staff and front office may see the same thing.
1) It's not even October and the Giants record is already determined
2) It's not even October, and the landscape of draftable QBs is already set (including dismissing one of the QBs plenty of folks think is a bona fide 1st rouder)
3) Jones will have plenty of suitors, but will decide to sign a 2 or 3 year deal, which is quite an outlier for a second contract for a starting QB
Maybe this thread would be better stated as I like Daniel Jones, and I want the Giants to sign him. -- and leave out the other silly stuff?
They have some time to turn things around on offense and improve the OL but this offensive staff has a lot to prove as does JS. BD's track record is pretty dismal until he got Allen AND Diggs and Buffalo again has the same issues on offense this year. The AFCE is not the NFCE.
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Eli was 37 and it was obvious the Giants would not win with him again; not there yet with Daniel,
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
And many want the Giants to stick with Jones even if it means the team continues to lose. It is more important for them to be right than admit they were wrong (which everyone is time and again).
It is just amazing to me that all of the "all or nothing" posters can't see they are literally the exact kind of fan they are criticizing.
Unfortunately for DJ it may cost him his career here. Its now the 4th straight year of this nonsense. Anyones guess what this means for DJ.
Just because it hasnt happened doesnt mean it cant and i am one who is ready to move on bit i also recognize that he is playing better each week so its possible he can come back..
There people who wanted Eli gone after his 3rd year and halfway through his 4th year and they won a superbowl..
I dont think Jones will ever be a top 10 QB bit i dont think its out of the realm of possibility that he is brought back for a yesr or 2 until they find their guy
Sure, as I said, the Giants could be the first team to do it, but I find that extremely unlikely. I guess if there is no one in the draft that they like, they could try to bring him back on an incentive-laden deal, but again, history suggests this won't happen.
It takes 2 to tango. Even if the Giants decide they want to bring DJ back at a below-market rate, will he accept that? I think the odds are long that both sides will be on the same page here.
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
What a load of nonsense. Being critical of Jones doesn't mean anybody wants him to fail. This ridiculous deflection of criticism is growing tiresome.
Unfortunately for DJ it may cost him his career here. Its now the 4th straight year of this nonsense. Anyones guess what this means for DJ.
Has there ever been another player that could not be evaluated after fours years in the league, including three as a starter?
Did every QB the Browns cut get a fair shot with a decent roster? Or was it clear that multiple players can suck at the same time?
This has gotten beyond silly.
I’d love to hear the list of playmakers he’s played with and add games played to that list as well. I’ll be waiting….
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
And I think it's less about Daniel Jones and moreso they want to say "see I was right" because they hate and think posters kind of like you suck.
He spent 4 years at Duke under the "QB whisperer" in Cutcliffe. He's in his 4th year in the NFL. If he still struggles with pre-snap reads, he's never going to get it.
Unfortunately for DJ it may cost him his career here. Its now the 4th straight year of this nonsense. Anyones guess what this means for DJ.
Maybe when he is 37 we can evaluate him?
Franchise QBs can make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If he can't elevate the team he is not the answer.
But really, I'd sign him long term and guarantee him 30mil at signing.
Derek Carr is the contract I'm looking at.
"Derek Carr signed a three year, $120.5 million extension with the Raiders. $65.2 million is guaranteed of which $24.9 million is guaranteed at signing. If Carr is on the roster on the 3rd day of the waiver period in 2023, his 2023 base salary and $7.5 million of his 2024 base salary will be guaranteed. The extension created $500,000 in cap space for the Raiders in 2022." Just minus the 2024 guarantee.
Link - ( New Window )
I’d love to hear the list of playmakers he’s played with and add games played to that list as well. I’ll be waiting….
I'd like to see that list as well. But hey, he has had a top Ol and running game to fall back on right?
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In comment 15837507 Sean said:
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
And I think it's less about Daniel Jones and moreso they want to say "see I was right" because they hate and think posters kind of like you suck.
Posters like me? why do i suck?
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In comment 15837507 Sean said:
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
What a load of nonsense. Being critical of Jones doesn't mean anybody wants him to fail. This ridiculous deflection of criticism is growing tiresome.
Whose deflecting criticism? who said Jones is not at fault? Who said Jones is a franchise QB?
and it is 100% true that people on this forum root for Jones to fail so they can say see i told you so..
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is you AGAIN cant evaluate Jones. How do you evaluate him throwing to these WRs and running for his life behind this OL giving up historic amounts of pressure? if you were told Golladay wasnt forked and theyd get nothing from Toney and Robinson, what would you think should happen?
Unfortunately for DJ it may cost him his career here. Its now the 4th straight year of this nonsense. Anyones guess what this means for DJ.
Maybe when he is 37 we can evaluate him?
Franchise QBs can make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If he can't elevate the team he is not the answer.
DO IT ANYWAYZ JONEZ!!!
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Just because it hasnt happened doesnt mean it cant and i am one who is ready to move on bit i also recognize that he is playing better each week so its possible he can come back..
There people who wanted Eli gone after his 3rd year and halfway through his 4th year and they won a superbowl..
I dont think Jones will ever be a top 10 QB bit i dont think its out of the realm of possibility that he is brought back for a yesr or 2 until they find their guy
Sure, as I said, the Giants could be the first team to do it, but I find that extremely unlikely. I guess if there is no one in the draft that they like, they could try to bring him back on an incentive-laden deal, but again, history suggests this won't happen.
It takes 2 to tango. Even if the Giants decide they want to bring DJ back at a below-market rate, will he accept that? I think the odds are long that both sides will be on the same page here.
You will probably end up being right and i prefer them to draft a franchise guy that they like over keeping Jones at this moment..
I just wouldnt be surprised if they dont like any of the guys or they cant get up to get them that they go to Jones and offer him a 2 or 3 year incentive deal...he may say go pound salt and go somewhere else but i dont think its out of the realm that that happens
Don't worry about googs. He doesn't understand the impact a running game has on a offense in setting up the pass but he watches Nick Saban videos so he has all the answers.
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Monday. He was the Giants best player on the field. He elevated a bunch of JV s, Sy s words not mine, to a fourth quarter league.
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
+1 - we all know the DJ detractor club - they are easy to spot and ignore.
Daniel Jonwes is better than Barkley? I think not. Maybe if you include his injured season up to this point. But Barkley is easily the best Giant.
And anyone else think it odd that a Running back is Jones #2 receiver in addition to break out runs?
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants win they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
Come on man, you're a better poster than this. It's fine to believe that Jones is a better QB than he has shown, I think we all agree that he has been dealt a bad hand, but the idea that "many" of the posters who just don't see it with Jones actively want the team to lose is more than a bit unfair. We all want the Giants to win.
My problem is with many of the Jones acolytes who make the same claim you did, but have ZERO problem tarring, feathering and flaying other Giants who they feel have played poorly (step up Evan Engram!). Why does Jones get a pass for poor play? If the surrounding cast is an issue for Jones, why isn't it for other players? How much of Golladay's struggles, for example, are due to Jones not being able to deliver the types of throws KG thrives on?
The reason so many of the Jones doubters are especially vocal is that the acolytes take any remotely decent game as proof that Jones is the guy. Like game 1. He played OK, made a nice read on the long TD pass to Shep, but did little else. Or Monday night, where he played with a ton of toughness and grit, but was the team ever in the RZ? I don't believe they got there once. Now obviously, DJ can't be blamed for all of it, but he has to shoulder some of it. He is the QB, after all.
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Riddle me this Batman. Daboll prefers a QB with the physical stature that Jones has , just for example. name me ONE of the guys coming out for the 23 draft who have that physical size.
Ive looked at them, I’ll wait.
I think because he checks so many boxes for them (not you obviously), they will do everything possible to make it work with Jones.
You can have your opinion and wish list, but listen to the HC. He’s pretty definitive avoir what he sees and what he wants.
So you can't converse without a personal attack? You lose right there. I will be polite to you even though your parents brought you up to be impolite to others
You believe everything Daboll says about Jones? What, you expect him to run his mouth about the starting QB? He's trying to win games. You don't knee what BD thinks of Jones. None of us do. That's the one truth you can take from this thread. Coaches have no incentive to tell you what they really think.
I don’t believe most of the time what a coach says about a player publicly.
But in a thread that was deleted yesterday, I did offer that Dabolls comments on Jones trend more to effusive praise than him trying to avoid answering questions about the quarterback with generic coach speak.
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His biggest problem right now IMO is pre snap reads. This can be taught and improved upon.
He spent 4 years at Duke under the "QB whisperer" in Cutcliffe. He's in his 4th year in the NFL. If he still struggles with pre-snap reads, he's never going to get it.
what reads is he missing in this new offense (this year) ... seriously I am not trying to say you are wrong just looking for examples ... I can only go by what others show on the all 22 when they break down the plays and it seems he is making the reads especially in the Dallas game he made the right reads guys dropped balls or you saw his eyes move to the right guy but had no time in the pocket ... I think he is slowly improving but we will see ... still many games to be played this year for him to be evaluated
what reads is he missing in this new offense (this year) ... seriously I am not trying to say you are wrong just looking for examples ... I can only go by what others show on the all 22 when they break down the plays and it seems he is making the reads especially in the Dallas game he made the right reads guys dropped balls or you saw his eyes move to the right guy but had no time in the pocket ... I think he is slowly improving but we will see ... still many games to be played this year for him to be evaluated
I'm not the one who said he missing reads. I was merely pointing out that if he was still missing reads after 8 years of NFL-level coaching, that light is probably never going on.
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In comment 15837520 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15837507 Sean said:
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In comment 15837504 joe48 said:
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Jones could be the best option and that will be decided by the GM. The anybody but DJ choir will have to eat crow. Will be pretty funny since they have expended so energy trying to run him out of NY.
You think it’s funny. I just want to see the Giants win.
joeinpa: all the same things I’ve said about Jones you said about Eli. I remember you being so critical of Eli and he had a history of success. I just don’t get it. It’s been 4 years.
Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants ein they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
And I think it's less about Daniel Jones and moreso they want to say "see I was right" because they hate and think posters kind of like you suck.
Posters like me? why do i suck?
You'll have to ask them...
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Sean many on here who hate Jones or says he sucks do not care if the giants win they just want Jones to suck to say see i was right
Come on man, you're a better poster than this. It's fine to believe that Jones is a better QB than he has shown, I think we all agree that he has been dealt a bad hand, but the idea that "many" of the posters who just don't see it with Jones actively want the team to lose is more than a bit unfair. We all want the Giants to win.
My problem is with many of the Jones acolytes who make the same claim you did, but have ZERO problem tarring, feathering and flaying other Giants who they feel have played poorly (step up Evan Engram!). Why does Jones get a pass for poor play? If the surrounding cast is an issue for Jones, why isn't it for other players? How much of Golladay's struggles, for example, are due to Jones not being able to deliver the types of throws KG thrives on?
The reason so many of the Jones doubters are especially vocal is that the acolytes take any remotely decent game as proof that Jones is the guy. Like game 1. He played OK, made a nice read on the long TD pass to Shep, but did little else. Or Monday night, where he played with a ton of toughness and grit, but was the team ever in the RZ? I don't believe they got there once. Now obviously, DJ can't be blamed for all of it, but he has to shoulder some of it. He is the QB, after all.
I am Jones doubter hahaha
I dont want to keep Jones, i dont think he is franchise QB, i dont think he is the future
Don't worry about googs. He doesn't understand the impact a running game has on a offense in setting up the pass but he watches Nick Saban videos so he has all the answers.
Giants lost on Monday becasue they only ran the ball 25 times. Everybody knows the magic number is 30 guaranteeing victory.
If Daboll calls 5 running plays in a row on that final drive, we would be 3-0 right now...
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Your post was very fair. Getting a true number one is exactly what Buffalo did. When Buffalo added Diggs (and a couple others) their p/g went to over 30. Prior to that they were below 20.
Don't worry about googs. He doesn't understand the impact a running game has on a offense in setting up the pass but he watches Nick Saban videos so he has all the answers.
Giants lost on Monday becasue they only ran the ball 25 times. Everybody knows the magic number is 30 guaranteeing victory.
If Daboll calls 5 running plays in a row on that final drive, we would be 3-0 right now...
This is you trying to show how smart you are. That is never what I said. I simply have said that successful running marked by high rushing carries correlates to winning. It also opens up PA being in favorable down/distance by keeping the defense off balance which impacts the passing game even with less than ideal WR options.
You should not be calling any posters stupid when stupid is staring right back at you. Learn the fundamentals.
If Daboll calls 5 running plays in a row on that final drive, we would be 3-0 right now...
You forgot physical. If only the Giants had been more physical. (Not to mention if Reese hadn't put that Super Bowl clock in the locker room, that loomed large as well.)
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Monday. He was the Giants best player on the field. He elevated a bunch of JV s, Sy s words not mine, to a fourth quarter league.
Yet we still have distractors , spinning this performance as more evidence that he stinks. Lesson learned for me, I ve stopped paying attention to them.
But if Schoen and Daboll determine a rookie is available that gives them at least as much as Daniel does, it will be no brainer to move on
+1 - we all know the DJ detractor club - they are easy to spot and ignore.
The same thing was said about the Gettleman detractors
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In comment 15837570 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Your post was very fair. Getting a true number one is exactly what Buffalo did. When Buffalo added Diggs (and a couple others) their p/g went to over 30. Prior to that they were below 20.
Don't worry about googs. He doesn't understand the impact a running game has on a offense in setting up the pass but he watches Nick Saban videos so he has all the answers.
Giants lost on Monday becasue they only ran the ball 25 times. Everybody knows the magic number is 30 guaranteeing victory.
If Daboll calls 5 running plays in a row on that final drive, we would be 3-0 right now...
This is you trying to show how smart you are. That is never what I said. I simply have said that successful running marked by high rushing carries correlates to winning. It also opens up PA being in favorable down/distance by keeping the defense off balance which impacts the passing game even with less than ideal WR options.
You should not be calling any posters stupid when stupid is staring right back at you. Learn the fundamentals.
30 carries baby! Don't let anybody tell you differently...
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Giants lost on Monday becasue they only ran the ball 25 times. Everybody knows the magic number is 30 guaranteeing victory.
If Daboll calls 5 running plays in a row on that final drive, we would be 3-0 right now...
You forgot physical. If only the Giants had been more physical. (Not to mention if Reese hadn't put that Super Bowl clock in the locker room, that loomed large as well.)
Yes, the super bowl clock has been an annual killer...
Googs. Did you catch Saban's comments last week? Bunch of changes on the interior OL. Started a freshman. He seems to see the same issues that impacted the Bama/Georgia NCG. You know the one where they ran 30 times for 31 yards. Guess what word Saban used? "Physical". He said they have to be much more physical on the OL. Imaging that Christian, another HC who gets football.
It isnt about evaluating Jones anymore, its about can the team find a better replacement
Before April's draft there were stats that said in recent drafts the QBs drafted in the top 15 busted 50% of the time (meaning they didnt become franchise QBs). After pick 15 the numbers were way worse, and from the 2nd round on there was about 5% chance of landing a star QB
Now look, today, at the 2023 draft. Stroud and Young with Levis a big maybe. The rest have been bad
The Jones Sucks club refuses to believe that Jones may be the best option next year
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
I think it's pretty clear that Jones has taken well to Daboll's coaching. There were a couple of videos from camp of Daboll working Jones is a "climb the pocket and escape laterally drill". You could see (from section 340) Jones doing it repeatedly Monday with good success. I don't remember him ever doing it before. He also knew when to slide and get out of bounds and for the most part threw to right receiver. He's getting better each week. Hopefully Toney and Robinson get back and give some better options.
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
We can compete on things like:
1) How to DVR sports subscriptions on YouTubeTV
2) When did MLB band steroids?
3) General use of apostrophes and periods
4) How to connect a Roku to a TV
5) Name that big star on a new TV show
6) Define the word "physical"
7) How many times can you reference the Super Bowl Clock
Of course and I don't think anyone is against that as an option. We are simply saying that there's a lot that can happen between now and then (offseason) and Schoen making up his mind now would be negligent.
Also, I don't think the argument is about accurately evaluating Jones - I think everyone including our coaching staff has and will have all the evaluation they need. The question is really just for us - wouldn't it have been nice to have had a better team to see if we can actually make some noise? That isn't a vote of "extend Jones he's definitely the guy", its fans wishing we had a better team during Jones' tenure.
Really? Likes the cut of his jib? Ability to score points must not be one of them.
Or maybe he's engaging in polite coachspeak and doesn't want to be an asshole about his try hard QB in public.
Googs. Did you catch Saban's comments last week? Bunch of changes on the interior OL. Started a freshman. He seems to see the same issues that impacted the Bama/Georgia NCG. You know the one where they ran 30 times for 31 yards. Guess what word Saban used? "Physical". He said they have to be much more physical on the OL. Imaging that Christian, another HC who gets football.
I did notice that Bama got 34 rushing attempts in last week versus Vanderbilt who only ran 26 times.
Maybe if Vandy had put up at least 4 more carries they wouldn't have lost 55 to 3...
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
The QB is TBD until they step on the field, no matter what spot you take him at. Nobody is saying just take one, but that there are options that are potentially better than Jones. The only reason for keeping Jones is if you think his potential in year 5 is higher than now, I’d rather get a rookie with a potential higher ceiling
With Jones doing a good job navigating the pocket it will open some potential big plays downfield but they need more speed and talented WR's to be in play.
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
Of course and I don't think anyone is against that as an option. We are simply saying that there's a lot that can happen between now and then (offseason) and Schoen making up his mind now would be negligent.
Also, I don't think the argument is about accurately evaluating Jones - I think everyone including our coaching staff has and will have all the evaluation they need. The question is really just for us - wouldn't it have been nice to have had a better team to see if we can actually make some noise? That isn't a vote of "extend Jones he's definitely the guy", its fans wishing we had a better team during Jones' tenure.
That is the argument being made by many in support of Jones.
And I don’t think it’s negligent to decide now that you’re not going to keep Jones, because there are financial implications that they have an idea of what they’ll be. They also know what his ceiling is
Are players like Feliciano, Glowinski, and Ezeudu physical players?
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
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My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
Are players like Feliciano, Glowinski, and Ezeudu physical players?
I think Ezuedu is a TBD. He is a third round pick who needs a lot of development. I haven't seen the interior move very much in the running game and in the passing game a lot of pressure is coming from the interior.
This right now is not a physical OL. Dallas's great teams had a physical OL. The Giants did in their better years. The Eagles have had one and have probably the best won now. Jimmy Johnson talked about this Sunday regarding the Eagles. He even used the dreaded "physical' word. Damn, another championship HC using that word. I gave you two in this thread. Perhaps some day you'll grasp the concept. But hey you have Googs to guide you.
And Schoen can certainly think "this isn't our guy long term" (which I agree with) but 1. that can certainly change if he plays better and 2. there are short term options for Jones, and those can definitely come into play if we aren't that crazy about the 2023 prospects 3. he isn't getting cut or traded mid season so what good is making up your mind about it after week 3 anyway?
Again, it seems like you and some others are operating in definitives / black and white arguments or decisions and that just isn't the case here. There's a whole slew of factors and we have the entire season to measure them.
I think a lot of this is BBI dick measuring, too many want to be right, right now, when there is no incentive at all to it.
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In comment 15837602 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
*you're
How much did you play, LoS? HS Varsity?
1) It's not even October and the Giants record is already determined
2) It's not even October, and the landscape of draftable QBs is already set (including dismissing one of the QBs plenty of folks think is a bona fide 1st rouder)
3) Jones will have plenty of suitors, but will decide to sign a 2 or 3 year deal, which is quite an outlier for a second contract for a starting QB
Maybe this thread would be better stated as I like Daniel Jones, and I want the Giants to sign him. -- and leave out the other silly stuff?
Thank you!
I get so frustrated at the fans not seeing the economic reality regarding this decision.
If Jones needs everything perfect around him to be productive, why would we give him a second contract? Did no one watch Cooper Rush on Monday night? There will be much cheaper options..
The season IS young. The Giants are 2-1, but if the season ended today I’m not bringing Jones back.
Again, what is the drop off? Honestly, I see no difference between Jones and Taylor Heinicke and Cooper Rush when those teams have played.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
And for a guy who wants me to "play somewhere else", maybe you should think about that before calling me out like you did on your 10:50am post above.
what's good for the goose...
Also the “a rookie won’t be better” or “if we’re not top 10 we can’t take a QB because they’ll bust” are just another way to say let’s keep Jones.
I never said Ezuedu was not. I answered the other two already and gave examples of physical OL's and HC's who used that dreaded word "physical". Maybe you are just not as smart as you think you are if you can't put it all together?
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You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
And for a guy who wants me to "play somewhere else", maybe you should think about that before calling me out like you did on your 10:50am post above.
what's good for the goose...
You called another poster stupid who said nothing wrong. So yes I defended that poster.
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So Ezeudu, is not. Are Felciano and Glowinski?
I never said Ezuedu was not. I answered the other two already and gave examples of physical OL's and HC's who used that dreaded word "physical". Maybe you are just not as smart as you think you are if you can't put it all together?
So Feliciano and Glowinski are not physical players?
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
The DJFC never seems to grasp that their hero is the dictionary definition of drafting a QB just to draft one. By multiple reports, even DG himself preferred Herbert to Jones, but Herbert didn't declare in 2019. And rather than wait a year when he had already picked up Eli's option (by way of allowing Eli's roster bonus to vest) so that he could target the QB he really coveted, he took the one he liked best of the ones who were remaining.
And that's the guy who the DJFC would rather keep - an actual drafted-just-to-draft-one QB - instead of even considering a swing for the fences that Schoen/Daboll may prefer (in addition to resetting the rookie contract clock for the QB position).
I don't see this team in the position to get a top QB in the draft, there are a lot of teams with QB needs that should be drafting ahead of us because of the strength of schedule and the hot start by the Giants also there are 3 or 4 top QB's coming out that shouldn't get past 10.
Posters have said QB's like Mahomes and Lamar Jackson were picked late and most of that was because their game shouldn't transfer to NFL which they have debunked and teams are not afraid to draft those guys anymore.
I guess we could take a shot on Richardson from Florida or Hooker from Tennessee but they would be reachs in the middle of the first.
My point is I could see next season being a transition year and Jones being a Geno Smith, Trubisky, Mariota, Goff, Bridgewater type guy while they improve the overall talent.
A smart, patient GM is not going to reach for a QB that is not what they want long term and waste a draft pick.
Jones at 15 mil per seems expensive but if you grow the roster and get decent production while waiting for that guy it's worth it.
I don't think the Giants are in the position to trade multiple first to move up to get a top 3 QB without having talent to support that QB it's not a smart decision, this is a rebuild and a great young QB might be the last piece not the first.
So, Pop Warner through High School. Got it.
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10 years.
So, Pop Warner through High School. Got it.
PAL through high school. What's your point?
Don't think Rodgers, Allen, etc would perform better, even if they are better.
We are hoping to get NFL average QB production out of Jones but don't have evidence he's capable of even that over a full season. What are we waiting for here?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Taking a discount? The contract offers he's going to get are going to look like a discount, but they'll be his full price.
I would think a competent DC would not be too worried.
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I'm taking a discount to get away from the Giants
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Taking a discount? The contract offers he's going to get are going to look like a discount, but they'll be his full price.
I'm not disputing that, I'm saying he should take less of a contract than the Giants offer, depending on numbers of course
Historically, it's incredibly rare for an incumbent starting QB who is not at the end of his career to serve as the transition QB for his own replacement. It's far more likely that the Giants would just utilize Taylor for that purpose, or that they'd sign a Jones-equivalent journeyman from another team and Jones would take a prove-it contract elsewhere with a shot to take someone else's job rather than be in a position where he's holding off the inevitability of losing his own job instead.
That's the way it has played out for the past few first-round QBs who were not retained by their original teams (but hadn't yet busted out completely yet, like Rosen). All of the QBs you mentioned (and a few more) changed teams at the end of their rookie contract. You can add Winston, Tannehill, and Mayfield to that list as well.
At the end of their rookie contract, most NFL teams either make a full commitment to their QB, or no commitment at all. The closest example I can think of that resembles a team extending their half-commitment to a QB was the way Washington managed Cousins' contract situation with repeated franchise tags before he finally hit FA. But I can't think of any short-term mid-money (or less) second contracts for a young QB with the team who drafted him.
I would think a competent DC would not be too worried.
You think we have NFL "average" QB play?
We are hoping to get NFL average QB production out of Jones but don't have evidence he's capable of even that over a full season. What are we waiting for here?
I think this year will determine that for this organization, we are through 3 games and I would say Jones is improving but you are right he has not proven that.
If we get to 7-9 wins I would think he would be on the level and the front office will determine with the right path for the organization. They might love a Richardson or someone else in the draft without giving up the farm .
I think the hyperbole that Jones is gone next year and the front office failed if he is resigned is offbase
Finding the next great QB might take patience. Rebuilds take time especially where this team is starting from.
I am not advocating for Jones to be the next great QB but he might be the best option next year if plays well enough to carry the team over until the Giants are in the right spot to get that guy.
When the Chiefs had exactly the scenario you describe, and had Alex Smith at QB, how did they approach it?
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My point is I could see next season being a transition year and Jones being a Geno Smith, Trubisky, Mariota, Goff, Bridgewater type guy while they improve the overall talent.
Historically, it's incredibly rare for an incumbent starting QB who is not at the end of his career to serve as the transition QB for his own replacement. It's far more likely that the Giants would just utilize Taylor for that purpose, or that they'd sign a Jones-equivalent journeyman from another team and Jones would take a prove-it contract elsewhere with a shot to take someone else's job rather than be in a position where he's holding off the inevitability of losing his own job instead.
That's the way it has played out for the past few first-round QBs who were not retained by their original teams (but hadn't yet busted out completely yet, like Rosen). All of the QBs you mentioned (and a few more) changed teams at the end of their rookie contract. You can add Winston, Tannehill, and Mayfield to that list as well.
At the end of their rookie contract, most NFL teams either make a full commitment to their QB, or no commitment at all. The closest example I can think of that resembles a team extending their half-commitment to a QB was the way Washington managed Cousins' contract situation with repeated franchise tags before he finally hit FA. But I can't think of any short-term mid-money (or less) second contracts for a young QB with the team who drafted him.
Definitely a fair take and I could see one of those guys mentioned being brought in to be that transition guy, I think Webb has more of an opportunity than Taylor at this point. I am not a fan of Taylor. Just my opinion
Without Shepherd, and Toney and Robinson being what they are,, this is the worst WR corps at the pro level I have ever seen.
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I am pretty much in agreement and that Jones becoming expensive is a big part of it.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
I don't know Jordan Travis but your pool of QB's expands if the franchise looks at other ways you can win.
One of the big problem with just focusing on the QB position is it neglects other ways your franchise can have significant success.
"Good enough QB" on a rookie contract with a upper tier/elite defense has more than once showed to be a highly successful strategy. The "good enough" group will need a very good running game/OL to maximize the strategy imv.
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In comment 15837640 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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I am pretty much in agreement and that Jones becoming expensive is a big part of it.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
I don't know Jordan Travis but your pool of QB's expands if the franchise looks at other ways you can win.
One of the big problem with just focusing on the QB position is it neglects other ways your franchise can have significant success.
"Good enough QB" on a rookie contract with a upper tier/elite defense has more than once showed to be a highly successful strategy. The "good enough" group will need a very good running game/OL to maximize the strategy imv.
Problem with good enough guys is the learning curve of jumping to the NFL when you can get a journeyman guy that knows the NFL and the grind while waiting to get the "guy". Those good enough guys very rarely transition to the guy and win SB's. Be patient and use the 3rd round on other needs
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
You are talking about QBs that had a ton of talent and were first round pick from good college programs not sure a 3rd round guy is on the same level.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
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There are certainly positions and scenarios where the physical skillset (as opposed to the finesse skillset) is the right tool for the job.
And vice versa. This applies to skill and trench players.
The issue with the Giants offensive line right now isn't the physical skillset. Take a guy like Neal, who is huge and powerful, and when engaged in a block is a nightmare. But his problem is recognition and footwork. He can be physical until his head pops, but that's not going to make him a better pass protector.
Same is true for Feliciano. He has a reputation for being nasty, and feisty, but he's really slow. He's lacking a skillset not classically defined as physical.
Both Glowinksi and Ezeudu have faired better in the run game, but have struggled with play recognition in pass pro. It got Ezeudu benched. He's probably the most physically imposing interior lineman the Giants have, and was a big part of their ground success in week one, and he's not starting.
Which leads to this silly notion the Giants have gotten away from being physical. They spent the number seven over all pick on a monster right tackle, a top 70 pick on a big thick strong guard, their only medium sized UFA contract on a starting guard, and signed a center with a reputation of being a dog at center.
The Giants problem isn't not being physical enough, it's not being good enough.
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We’ve seen Jackson, Herbert, Hurts, Burrow and possibly even Tua now succeed in year 2 if not in year 1.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
This was in reference to the comment of the learning curve of “good enough” guys not Jones specifically
Thank you! That’s the only true answer for this bulletin board right now. I refuse to think in moronic absolutes about the decision of Jones. We need to let this play out and see what Shoen and Daboll decide.
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Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
If a place makes bad food, that anyone objectively looking at the food would say was bad are you a hater if you don't want to eat there? Are people like, they were dealing with horrible kitchen equipment in there! The food handling staff is well below average but I bet everyone would love the food if they were gone! No because this is bullshit. You aren't a hater if data supporting your reasoning exists you are just a regular person that isn't super interested in experiencing sub par stuff.
Now hey, anyone is free to eat bad food and call it good. But when you start insisting that other people say the food is better than it has proven to be because of extenuating circumstances well that's really just an annoyance.
If you look in the other direction, that's where you get a very logical DJFC label. If people are asking you to ignore data because of these constantly extenuating circumstances that is like definitionally being a fan of something or overly optimistic.
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
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Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
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We’ve seen Jackson, Herbert, Hurts, Burrow and possibly even Tua now succeed in year 2 if not in year 1.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
Because we still have people coming on here and arguing that there is still absolutely no way to evaluate Jones, and the Giants should probably just re-sign him for 2-3 years because once there are better players, he may be a really good QB.
It is really hard to ignore those comments and focus on only on rational posts.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
👍
Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
The Texans traded up for Watson.
The Bills traded up for Allen.
The Niners traded to for Lance.
The Bears traded up for Fields.
Which teams who are in the market for a QB just sit on their hands and wait? I’d urge a lot here to get comfortable with the fact that the 2024 first round pick could likely be moved to trade up for QB.
And it looks like the Niners and the Bears made mistakes with those picks. It is still early. Fields still has a chance to become a solid QB if the Bears could ever surround him with a decent support cast. But Lance looks like a huge mistake. Of course, Mahomes, Allen, and Watson have proven their worth. I have heard that Macadoo wanted to trade up for Mahomes but the GM nixed it. And I read somewhere that DG would have picked Allen if he had chosen a QB instead of Barkley.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
You should just go ahead and become a fan of whatever team signs Jones this offseason. Feels like a win/win for everyone.
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In comment 15837786 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
👍
Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
It's still "you're" not "your" but go ahead and let us know who you think is intelligent enough to proffer insights.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
You do realize Jones does not have a single season of great production. What makes you think the Bucs will share your opinion of Jones, when he has never done it. At this juncture Jameis Winston is a far better bet than Jones.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
The Bucs aren’t going after Jones to be their starting quarterback. Stop this nonsense
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
I had concerns with this offensive staff to start. Buffalo did little to show me they have the OL thing figured out. Hoping long term the same trend does not apply here. If you are really interested look at Buffalo's difference in offense before and after Diggs. Both Allen and Diggs hide a lot of warts that got exposed against the Chiefs.
They got the ball 9 times and scored 5 TDs
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In comment 15837786 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
👍
Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
Haha...we're the arrogant ones, huh?
They got the ball 9 times and scored 5 TDs
Lot of the damage was done when Mathieu got hurt. Chiefs were close to putting that game away until that 4th down call by Reid. They also lost a corner and had Baker in for the 4th QTR.
If you look closely at Buffalo you will see they could not run the ball between the tackles all year.
Just pointing out a observation that plenty of the analysts have pointed about as well. Bills were soft on both interiors. They actually addressed it on the D side but thus far on O they have the same issue this year.
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In comment 15837777 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
OK so for Neal it's not his physicality, but speed and recognition.
What is it about who they are with Feliciano and Glowinski that's made them ineffective this year?
I don't see why you are so amped up at me since I am subscribing to what you constantly preach.
Every game I watch, I shake my head at the teams/coaches that don't run the ball at least 30 times and those that don't do it as much as possible in first half regardless of the results. And it's because you said it is a sure-fire path to- football success. Just like Vanderbilt had less carries than Alabama the other day...sure enough Vandy lost.
This is genius-type stuff...
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In comment 15837833 christian said:
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In comment 15837777 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
OK so for Neal it's not his physicality, but speed and recognition.
What is it about who they are with Feliciano and Glowinski that's made them ineffective this year?
Maybe they're trying to outthink the game too?
I have said that being able to run consistently puts teams in more manageable down/distance and makes PA more successful. It helps your WR's get open and simplifies reads for your QB. End of story.
30 rushes is a barometer that a lot of coaches have used for decades. It means you have balance and applies to what I said above. Yet for some reason you take this 30 number and like taking shots. Reality is when you hit that number and it is from consistent runs your team has a significantly higher probability of winning. If you take the time to research that instead of your approach you take then maybe you will the value in it but that does not seem your style. That would mean god forbid you may be wrong.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
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How the great passing teams run more because they are winning at the end. This was nothing what I was saying nor is there truth to your statement.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
Back this one up please. I'd like to see it and understand the circumstances around it.
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In comment 15837906 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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How the great passing teams run more because they are winning at the end. This was nothing what I was saying nor is there truth to your statement.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
Back this one up please. I'd like to see it and understand the circumstances around it.
You'd like to see proof that teams run the ball more frequently when they already have the lead than when they're trailing? Or would you prefer to see proof that they run the ball more when they're protecting a lead than when they're building their lead?
Which evidence will best satisfy your burden of proof?
Glowinski in 29 and is struggling. Feliciano is 30 and came from a OL who couldn't run on the interior and that is coached and managed by those same people.
The technical details are best for Sy but you can read his reviews. I am more comfortable with the QB position.
I have said that being able to run consistently puts teams in more manageable down/distance and makes PA more successful. It helps your WR's get open and simplifies reads for your QB. End of story.
30 rushes is a barometer that a lot of coaches have used for decades. It means you have balance and applies to what I said above. Yet for some reason you take this 30 number and like taking shots. Reality is when you hit that number and it is from consistent runs your team has a significantly higher probability of winning. If you take the time to research that instead of your approach you take then maybe you will the value in it but that does not seem your style. That would mean god forbid you may be wrong.
I wasn't trying to teach you anything. I only remarked that I subscribe far more to the importance of the passing game in achieving success at the NFL level in recent years. And that running is not to be overlooked because of the need for balance (not 50/50 balance) but yardage, scoring and ultimately wins come from the passing game these days.
You got on your pedestal and started preaching 30 carries come hell or high water, and I don't agree. I have no issue in teams getting to 30 carries, or even more, but as contributing factor to hopefully a far more effective offensive attack that allows them to reach that output without just forcing it. But you didn't like the way that ws said either.
But keep this up, we haven't had comic relief like you are displaying here since fmic went into hiding. The site needs more of this...
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
I've said that a few times on different threads.
Brady is all but gone.
The FA market will be meh.
The College QB class looks to be less than anticipated.
Jones to TB for say 3 @ $15M per makes a lot of sense.
Jones with some talent around him would not be too shabby.
And the Jones haters can kiss my ass too.
You know where I saw this play out about ten years ago? When Nicks got hurt. Shit oline and now no more elite perimeter threat and the team goes to crap. Go figure. But hey, you understand football right so you understand that?
You know where I saw this play out about ten years ago? When Nicks got hurt. Shit oline and now no more elite perimeter threat and the team goes to crap. Go figure. But hey, you understand football right so you understand that?
Haha...you even post like fmic now with your slight pivots and condescending tones. Well done.
I am not denying mentioning the Nick Saban video for you to watch so he could inform you what he has been doing with the passing game to drive Bama's success. Here's the thread so you can re-read what I mentioned above exactly. Btw - count how many times you drive home the 30 carries concept too for kicks...
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=624965
Jimmy Googs : 9/1/2022 10:48 am : link
At least your getting closer to an actual point....running the ball and doing it effectively is a guideline. But not some magical 30 carries.
Effective runs, even if only 15+ or so carries could do the job. It creates space in the Defense, some semblance of balance in play calls even if not 50/50, and of course the most important dynamic...the opportunity for play action.
However the goal is to score. And scoring comes out of impact plays and the passing game. Teams pass more and more now and they do it because they know without the impact plays passing provides, they are leaving themselves exposed to not having enough points on the board to win or leaning on their Defense too heavily. If everyone had an all-time Defense then you can risk it, but obviously most don’t. Every new rule inserted in the game over the past decade or so has favored putting more and more emphasis on passing versus rushing to be successful. Not a guarantee but clearly favoring it.
It’s in some of the next few chapters on winning football, once you finish your Football 101 book from 1979...
Glad no one altered the archives on this one so I could re-post it :-)
The technical details are best for Sy but you can read his reviews.
What I'm getting at is you debate the game in repeated and exhausting generalities and catch phrases, you admittedly don't understand the technical details of the game well, and your arrogance about it is silly and misplaced.
You can't quantify why or why not players meet these esoteric thresholds you've heard coaches allude to in press conferences.
You'd be better off just saying the Giants offensive line hasn't been good for a decade and not try and tie it to a root cause you struggle to even define.
Posters on this site swing and miss and over reach their knowledge from time-to-time. Myself certainly included. But you double-down and bill us for the pleasure.
I'd say when push comes to shove the Emperor Has No Clothes, but that'd be an insult to emperors.
I think you put a big target on yourself, make broad claims, talk down to posters, use language like you're teaching people, and then get your feelings hurt when your spurious view points get shot at.
I think you'd be far more comfortable getting in on the joke with the rest of, that we're all just fans trying to better understand the team and the game. Rather than the joke being on you, that you've got it all figured out. When virtually all of us can see pretty clearly you don't.
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In comment 15837906 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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How the great passing teams run more because they are winning at the end. This was nothing what I was saying nor is there truth to your statement.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
Back this one up please. I'd like to see it and understand the circumstances around it.
Here's your proof, as requested.
To outline the methodology, I chose 10 teams to review, looking at teams that had the most rushing attempts in 2021, as well as those with the most passing attempts. I made sure to include the Chiefs and Bills, since those two teams theoretically represent the greatest representation of what we can logically expect Daboll/Kafka to do. I also made sure to include the Rams, since they went on to win the SB. Here are the 10 teams:
Tennessee Titans
Philadelphia Eagles
Baltimore Ravens
New Orleans Saints
Buffalo Bills
Kansas City Chiefs
Green Bay Packers
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Los Angeles Chargers
Los Angeles Rams
I then looked at a few different data points (all data sourced from Pro Football Reference):
- Total 2021 rushing attempts
- 2021 rushing attempts with the lead
- 2021 rushing attempts while tied
- 2021 rushing attempts while trailing
- Total offensive plays with under 4 minutes remaining in the game
- Rushing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining with the lead
- Passing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining with the lead
- Rushing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining while tied
- Passing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining while tied
- Rushing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining while trailing
- Passing attempts with under 4 minutes remaining while trailing
Here's what the data reveals (full spreadsheet linked below):
- Our 10 team sample ran the ball a total of 4,693 times in 2021 (average of 27.6 rushing attempts per game)
- 47.9% of rushing attempts (2,249) occur when a team has the lead
- 18.8% of rushing attempts (880) occur when the game is tied
- 33.3% of rushing attempts (1,564) occur when a team is losing
All of the above stats are independent of the game clock. Now looking at the scenarios with under 4 minutes remaining, which shows us how a team behaves late in the game when they're protecting a lead vs. when they're attempting to take the lead:
- When leading with under 4 minutes remaining, teams run the ball 83.3% of the time, vs. 16.7% pass attempts
- When tied with under 4 minutes remaining, teams run the ball 42.7% of the time, vs. 58.3% pass attempts (this is very close to the overall league average ratio for all score/time scenarios)
- When trailing with under 4 minutes remaining, teams run the ball 21.3% of the time, vs. 78.7% pass attempts
- 7.5% of teams' rushing attempts occur with under 4 minutes remaining while protecting a lead
- 2.2% of teams' rushing attempts occur with under 4 minutes remaining while losing (and this number in particular is especially inflated by the Titans, whose run-heavy approach in general introduces some skew to what's already a small sample)
Overall, in 2021, NFL teams ran the ball 42% of the time and passed 58% of the time. That's an important piece of context for the overall numbers.
When they have the lead, the numbers shift to a 50/50 split. When trailing, the numbers go more heavily toward the pass, with a 65/35 split. Only when we look at specific situations, like anytime in the 4th quarter with a lead do we see teams really favor the run (that scenario has a 65/35 ratio in favor of rushing attempts). So that's the big picture of illustrating that teams tend to run with the lead and pass with a deficit. Here's a site that allows you to toggle options and sliders to view run/pass ratios in a variety of game situations.
So we can see that in the current NFL, where the baseline starts off with a ratio that favors the pass, it remains a pass-first league in most scenarios, and only really shows a run-first tendency late in the game with a lead. In virtually all other scenarios, teams are more likely to pass than to run. That's how you can tell that the correlation of rushing attempts to victory is the reverse of your hypothesis. The conclusion is not that teams who run the ball are more likely to win; it is that teams who are winning are more likely to run the ball. That's not semantics - it's an essential distinction.
Below is the link to the spreadsheet that I put together with the 10 team sample from last season:
Link - ( New Window )
What I still say if you do not have a upper tier QB AND upper tier WR's/skill group with a functional PB OL you better be able to run the ball a lot with success. If you can't the unfavorable down/distance is going to really hamper any offensive efforts. Rushing totals will be based of this.
Can we agree on that?
What I still say if you do not have a upper tier QB AND upper tier WR's/skill group with a functional PB OL you better be able to run the ball a lot with success. If you can't the unfavorable down/distance is going to really hamper any offensive efforts. Rushing totals will be based of this.
Can we agree on that?
I definitely agree with you on that. Basically, you've got to be able to move the ball somehow, or else you're going to punt more often than even Joe Judge would like.
I would add that if you want to win consistently, you need to solve those passing game problems because it's so much more efficient to have a dynamic passing game.
*They had a combined regular season record of 108-62, or a 64% winning percentage
* 8 of the 10 made the playoffs
* 9 of the 10 had winning records, with Ravens having just a horrific 8-9 season
So this combined group clearly seemed to know what they were doing in the NFL last year. And they made it happen mostly through very efficient passing games while still not forgetting the run.
And yet, even as successful as this group was, and knowing how heavily they leaned on the run at the end of games as shown in the data, they still fell short as a group of this magical 30 rushing attempts per game that permeates winning franchises in the NFL.
As the famous baseball announcer Mel Allen used to say, "how about that"...
Playoff football is the best barometer. It exposes weaknesses. Some teams get by in the regular season but unless you get very lucky in your path you better be a overall balanced team.
What I still say if you do not have a upper tier QB AND upper tier WR's/skill group with a functional PB OL you better be able to run the ball a lot with success. If you can't the unfavorable down/distance is going to really hamper any offensive efforts. Rushing totals will be based of this.
Can we agree on that?
Said differently...what I will agree on is that if you can't pass very efficiently in today's NFL, you had better be unbelievably great at running the ball otherwise you're wasting everybody's time.
Like this debate...
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What I still say if you do not have a upper tier QB AND upper tier WR's/skill group with a functional PB OL you better be able to run the ball a lot with success. If you can't the unfavorable down/distance is going to really hamper any offensive efforts. Rushing totals will be based of this.
Can we agree on that?
Said differently...what I will agree on is that if you can't pass very efficiently in today's NFL, you had better be unbelievably great at running the ball otherwise you're wasting everybody's time.
Like this debate...
Yes and no. If you don't have a upper tier QB and skill group with functional PB ability you better have a stud OL that can run the ball. Otherwise your QB and WR's will be exposed as you are sitting in consistently long 2nd/3rd which will highlight all the deficiencies. This is exactly what my dialogue was about in the Bama/Georgia NCG when the two WR's went down. Bama got exposed.
And still they made it a really tough game until Stetson Bennett of all players went off in the middle of the 4th qtr.
Plan for everything I guess...
Wish I could tell you I valued more of your thoughts. I did several times praise you knowledge in Cap issues (hope your happy) which is where I see value. Not much elsewhere.
And still they made it a really tough game until Stetson Bennett of all players went off in the middle of the 4th qtr.
Plan for everything I guess...
Difficult to plan if you don't have the talent. Then your weaknesses get exposed which is what happened. If Bryce was in more 2nd/3rd and five perhaps they overcome that. 29/30 rushes for 31 yards not happening. Hope you figured that concept out. Its chapter one of the 1979 Almanac.
That hurts. I find a lot of comic value in yours. Seems like a owe you one little guy.
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loses it's two best WRs late in the season and has to play one of the All-Time Best Defenses in collegiate history without reaching into their practice sqaud for help.
And still they made it a really tough game until Stetson Bennett of all players went off in the middle of the 4th qtr.
Plan for everything I guess...
Difficult to plan if you don't have the talent. Then your weaknesses get exposed which is what happened. If Bryce was in more 2nd/3rd and five perhaps they overcome that. 29/30 rushes for 31 yards not happening. Hope you figured that concept out. Its chapter one of the 1979 Almanac.
If they only recruited or coached better. Bama really is scraping the bottom of the barrel for talent. Send them some of your posts and maybe they will just learn.
This is where you should just say “Uncle”.
But fine if not. :-)