Put aside which camp you are on regarding Daniel Jones. This is the way I am thinking about his situation right now:
1) Giants are most likely going to draft in the 12-20 range. I base this on their schedule this year being easier than last and it seems like we have a competent HC.
2) With that draft range, we are out of the picture for any of the elite QB's in the draft. (I do not consider Levis an elite QB in next years draft).
3) Free Agency does not have many QB's to choose from next year. The best, by far, is Lamar. I have a hard time believing the Ravens will let him go without some sort of tag.
Now the Ravens have let star players go in the past (Ed Reed) so this is not out of the ordinary, but none of these star Ravens players have ever been the QB of the team.
4) Why would any FA come to us unless this OL improves? As well, who is he throwing to? We have no one to advertise a QB to.
My most likely scenario is that Jones will sign a 2-3 year contract, but he will have his suitors as well.
The main concern for me is that all the above are true, the Giants try to sign him and he signs elsewhere. At the end of the day, a team might look at him and say that he has not had a good OL, WR or steady coaching in his 4 years here, he can make the throws so why not chance a signing.
I want to ask all of you, if you do not want Jones, how do you look to address the QB position? Is my take wrong?
Googs. Did you catch Saban's comments last week? Bunch of changes on the interior OL. Started a freshman. He seems to see the same issues that impacted the Bama/Georgia NCG. You know the one where they ran 30 times for 31 yards. Guess what word Saban used? "Physical". He said they have to be much more physical on the OL. Imaging that Christian, another HC who gets football.
It isnt about evaluating Jones anymore, its about can the team find a better replacement
Before April's draft there were stats that said in recent drafts the QBs drafted in the top 15 busted 50% of the time (meaning they didnt become franchise QBs). After pick 15 the numbers were way worse, and from the 2nd round on there was about 5% chance of landing a star QB
Now look, today, at the 2023 draft. Stroud and Young with Levis a big maybe. The rest have been bad
The Jones Sucks club refuses to believe that Jones may be the best option next year
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
I think it's pretty clear that Jones has taken well to Daboll's coaching. There were a couple of videos from camp of Daboll working Jones is a "climb the pocket and escape laterally drill". You could see (from section 340) Jones doing it repeatedly Monday with good success. I don't remember him ever doing it before. He also knew when to slide and get out of bounds and for the most part threw to right receiver. He's getting better each week. Hopefully Toney and Robinson get back and give some better options.
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
We can compete on things like:
1) How to DVR sports subscriptions on YouTubeTV
2) When did MLB band steroids?
3) General use of apostrophes and periods
4) How to connect a Roku to a TV
5) Name that big star on a new TV show
6) Define the word "physical"
7) How many times can you reference the Super Bowl Clock
Of course and I don't think anyone is against that as an option. We are simply saying that there's a lot that can happen between now and then (offseason) and Schoen making up his mind now would be negligent.
Also, I don't think the argument is about accurately evaluating Jones - I think everyone including our coaching staff has and will have all the evaluation they need. The question is really just for us - wouldn't it have been nice to have had a better team to see if we can actually make some noise? That isn't a vote of "extend Jones he's definitely the guy", its fans wishing we had a better team during Jones' tenure.
Really? Likes the cut of his jib? Ability to score points must not be one of them.
Or maybe he's engaging in polite coachspeak and doesn't want to be an asshole about his try hard QB in public.
Googs. Did you catch Saban's comments last week? Bunch of changes on the interior OL. Started a freshman. He seems to see the same issues that impacted the Bama/Georgia NCG. You know the one where they ran 30 times for 31 yards. Guess what word Saban used? "Physical". He said they have to be much more physical on the OL. Imaging that Christian, another HC who gets football.
I did notice that Bama got 34 rushing attempts in last week versus Vanderbilt who only ran 26 times.
Maybe if Vandy had put up at least 4 more carries they wouldn't have lost 55 to 3...
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
The QB is TBD until they step on the field, no matter what spot you take him at. Nobody is saying just take one, but that there are options that are potentially better than Jones. The only reason for keeping Jones is if you think his potential in year 5 is higher than now, I’d rather get a rookie with a potential higher ceiling
With Jones doing a good job navigating the pocket it will open some potential big plays downfield but they need more speed and talented WR's to be in play.
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
Of course and I don't think anyone is against that as an option. We are simply saying that there's a lot that can happen between now and then (offseason) and Schoen making up his mind now would be negligent.
Also, I don't think the argument is about accurately evaluating Jones - I think everyone including our coaching staff has and will have all the evaluation they need. The question is really just for us - wouldn't it have been nice to have had a better team to see if we can actually make some noise? That isn't a vote of "extend Jones he's definitely the guy", its fans wishing we had a better team during Jones' tenure.
That is the argument being made by many in support of Jones.
And I don’t think it’s negligent to decide now that you’re not going to keep Jones, because there are financial implications that they have an idea of what they’ll be. They also know what his ceiling is
Are players like Feliciano, Glowinski, and Ezeudu physical players?
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
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My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
Are players like Feliciano, Glowinski, and Ezeudu physical players?
I think Ezuedu is a TBD. He is a third round pick who needs a lot of development. I haven't seen the interior move very much in the running game and in the passing game a lot of pressure is coming from the interior.
This right now is not a physical OL. Dallas's great teams had a physical OL. The Giants did in their better years. The Eagles have had one and have probably the best won now. Jimmy Johnson talked about this Sunday regarding the Eagles. He even used the dreaded "physical' word. Damn, another championship HC using that word. I gave you two in this thread. Perhaps some day you'll grasp the concept. But hey you have Googs to guide you.
And Schoen can certainly think "this isn't our guy long term" (which I agree with) but 1. that can certainly change if he plays better and 2. there are short term options for Jones, and those can definitely come into play if we aren't that crazy about the 2023 prospects 3. he isn't getting cut or traded mid season so what good is making up your mind about it after week 3 anyway?
Again, it seems like you and some others are operating in definitives / black and white arguments or decisions and that just isn't the case here. There's a whole slew of factors and we have the entire season to measure them.
I think a lot of this is BBI dick measuring, too many want to be right, right now, when there is no incentive at all to it.
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In comment 15837602 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Frick and frack working in tandem. What a surprise. Look it wasn't the SB clock it was Eli was a phony right?
No no, it was definitely the Super Bowl clock. And not being physical. Gotta make sure you're being really physical. Like Olivia Newton-John level physical.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
My feeling is you probably never really played this game much. Anyone who has been involved in football clearly understands the value of physicality and what it means in having success in this game.
*you're
How much did you play, LoS? HS Varsity?
1) It's not even October and the Giants record is already determined
2) It's not even October, and the landscape of draftable QBs is already set (including dismissing one of the QBs plenty of folks think is a bona fide 1st rouder)
3) Jones will have plenty of suitors, but will decide to sign a 2 or 3 year deal, which is quite an outlier for a second contract for a starting QB
Maybe this thread would be better stated as I like Daniel Jones, and I want the Giants to sign him. -- and leave out the other silly stuff?
Thank you!
I get so frustrated at the fans not seeing the economic reality regarding this decision.
If Jones needs everything perfect around him to be productive, why would we give him a second contract? Did no one watch Cooper Rush on Monday night? There will be much cheaper options..
The season IS young. The Giants are 2-1, but if the season ended today I’m not bringing Jones back.
Again, what is the drop off? Honestly, I see no difference between Jones and Taylor Heinicke and Cooper Rush when those teams have played.
You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
And for a guy who wants me to "play somewhere else", maybe you should think about that before calling me out like you did on your 10:50am post above.
what's good for the goose...
Also the “a rookie won’t be better” or “if we’re not top 10 we can’t take a QB because they’ll bust” are just another way to say let’s keep Jones.
I never said Ezuedu was not. I answered the other two already and gave examples of physical OL's and HC's who used that dreaded word "physical". Maybe you are just not as smart as you think you are if you can't put it all together?
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You asked me this the other day about defining physical. I did. You want to play child games then I will say to you what I told googs before. Play somewhere else. I think you are pretty much a phony and don't really understand the game but offer excellent Cap (hope your happy) perspectives.
And for a guy who wants me to "play somewhere else", maybe you should think about that before calling me out like you did on your 10:50am post above.
what's good for the goose...
You called another poster stupid who said nothing wrong. So yes I defended that poster.
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So Ezeudu, is not. Are Felciano and Glowinski?
I never said Ezuedu was not. I answered the other two already and gave examples of physical OL's and HC's who used that dreaded word "physical". Maybe you are just not as smart as you think you are if you can't put it all together?
So Feliciano and Glowinski are not physical players?
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If this roster is so devoid of talent we can’t possibly evaluate Jones fairly, wouldn’t it be a better move for the franchise to bring in a QB on a rookie contract and use the money you’d have spent on Jones to fill those holes?
This is pretty much what a lot of people think. The issue is can you find a suitable QB in the draft. Just drafting one to draft one makes no sense and there are a lot of variables you have to consider when looking at the draft which is a TBD.
The DJFC never seems to grasp that their hero is the dictionary definition of drafting a QB just to draft one. By multiple reports, even DG himself preferred Herbert to Jones, but Herbert didn't declare in 2019. And rather than wait a year when he had already picked up Eli's option (by way of allowing Eli's roster bonus to vest) so that he could target the QB he really coveted, he took the one he liked best of the ones who were remaining.
And that's the guy who the DJFC would rather keep - an actual drafted-just-to-draft-one QB - instead of even considering a swing for the fences that Schoen/Daboll may prefer (in addition to resetting the rookie contract clock for the QB position).
I don't see this team in the position to get a top QB in the draft, there are a lot of teams with QB needs that should be drafting ahead of us because of the strength of schedule and the hot start by the Giants also there are 3 or 4 top QB's coming out that shouldn't get past 10.
Posters have said QB's like Mahomes and Lamar Jackson were picked late and most of that was because their game shouldn't transfer to NFL which they have debunked and teams are not afraid to draft those guys anymore.
I guess we could take a shot on Richardson from Florida or Hooker from Tennessee but they would be reachs in the middle of the first.
My point is I could see next season being a transition year and Jones being a Geno Smith, Trubisky, Mariota, Goff, Bridgewater type guy while they improve the overall talent.
A smart, patient GM is not going to reach for a QB that is not what they want long term and waste a draft pick.
Jones at 15 mil per seems expensive but if you grow the roster and get decent production while waiting for that guy it's worth it.
I don't think the Giants are in the position to trade multiple first to move up to get a top 3 QB without having talent to support that QB it's not a smart decision, this is a rebuild and a great young QB might be the last piece not the first.
So, Pop Warner through High School. Got it.
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10 years.
So, Pop Warner through High School. Got it.
PAL through high school. What's your point?
Don't think Rodgers, Allen, etc would perform better, even if they are better.
We are hoping to get NFL average QB production out of Jones but don't have evidence he's capable of even that over a full season. What are we waiting for here?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Taking a discount? The contract offers he's going to get are going to look like a discount, but they'll be his full price.
I would think a competent DC would not be too worried.
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I'm taking a discount to get away from the Giants
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Taking a discount? The contract offers he's going to get are going to look like a discount, but they'll be his full price.
I'm not disputing that, I'm saying he should take less of a contract than the Giants offer, depending on numbers of course
Historically, it's incredibly rare for an incumbent starting QB who is not at the end of his career to serve as the transition QB for his own replacement. It's far more likely that the Giants would just utilize Taylor for that purpose, or that they'd sign a Jones-equivalent journeyman from another team and Jones would take a prove-it contract elsewhere with a shot to take someone else's job rather than be in a position where he's holding off the inevitability of losing his own job instead.
That's the way it has played out for the past few first-round QBs who were not retained by their original teams (but hadn't yet busted out completely yet, like Rosen). All of the QBs you mentioned (and a few more) changed teams at the end of their rookie contract. You can add Winston, Tannehill, and Mayfield to that list as well.
At the end of their rookie contract, most NFL teams either make a full commitment to their QB, or no commitment at all. The closest example I can think of that resembles a team extending their half-commitment to a QB was the way Washington managed Cousins' contract situation with repeated franchise tags before he finally hit FA. But I can't think of any short-term mid-money (or less) second contracts for a young QB with the team who drafted him.
I would think a competent DC would not be too worried.
You think we have NFL "average" QB play?
We are hoping to get NFL average QB production out of Jones but don't have evidence he's capable of even that over a full season. What are we waiting for here?
I think this year will determine that for this organization, we are through 3 games and I would say Jones is improving but you are right he has not proven that.
If we get to 7-9 wins I would think he would be on the level and the front office will determine with the right path for the organization. They might love a Richardson or someone else in the draft without giving up the farm .
I think the hyperbole that Jones is gone next year and the front office failed if he is resigned is offbase
Finding the next great QB might take patience. Rebuilds take time especially where this team is starting from.
I am not advocating for Jones to be the next great QB but he might be the best option next year if plays well enough to carry the team over until the Giants are in the right spot to get that guy.
When the Chiefs had exactly the scenario you describe, and had Alex Smith at QB, how did they approach it?
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My point is I could see next season being a transition year and Jones being a Geno Smith, Trubisky, Mariota, Goff, Bridgewater type guy while they improve the overall talent.
Historically, it's incredibly rare for an incumbent starting QB who is not at the end of his career to serve as the transition QB for his own replacement. It's far more likely that the Giants would just utilize Taylor for that purpose, or that they'd sign a Jones-equivalent journeyman from another team and Jones would take a prove-it contract elsewhere with a shot to take someone else's job rather than be in a position where he's holding off the inevitability of losing his own job instead.
That's the way it has played out for the past few first-round QBs who were not retained by their original teams (but hadn't yet busted out completely yet, like Rosen). All of the QBs you mentioned (and a few more) changed teams at the end of their rookie contract. You can add Winston, Tannehill, and Mayfield to that list as well.
At the end of their rookie contract, most NFL teams either make a full commitment to their QB, or no commitment at all. The closest example I can think of that resembles a team extending their half-commitment to a QB was the way Washington managed Cousins' contract situation with repeated franchise tags before he finally hit FA. But I can't think of any short-term mid-money (or less) second contracts for a young QB with the team who drafted him.
Definitely a fair take and I could see one of those guys mentioned being brought in to be that transition guy, I think Webb has more of an opportunity than Taylor at this point. I am not a fan of Taylor. Just my opinion